This has been brought up by an individual post or two but I think it needs to be brought in the foreground.
Question: Does anyone here think you would be excited to have Daboll as our HC if Daniel Jones were his QB in Buffalo instead of Josh Allen?
Me personally: I’m 99% certain, I wouldn’t be because I know Buffalo would not be a great team….just a good team. And they certainly would not have had those offensive explosions we just witnessed these past two weeks that are fresh on our minds.
Your issue should be: if Giants hire Flores, is Jones (or other QB's they bring in) really benefitting from his offensive stability? The past says no.
How much of Allen and Buffalo's success is on Allen? None of us will ever know. But he seems to be a good up and coming coach with plenty of interest as a HC. And if the GM likes him best it's hard to argue the choice.
All of these guys have their questions... their strengths and weaknesses. It is what it is.
We have to find the guy.
If Daboll does nothing else other than help identify and mold the next Giants QB, he was the right hire. There is no single more important thing in the NFL game today.
If Daboll does nothing else other than help identify and mold the next Giants QB, he was the right hire. There is no single more important thing in the NFL game today.
If Jones was the QB for the Bills for the last three years, they wouldn't have 34 regular season and three playoff wins over that stretch, and they wouldn't have been 13 seconds away from their 2nd consecutive AFC Championship Game.
If Daboll is the guy, you're hiring him to coach the QB who replaces Jones.
Both of their jobs will depend on getting that right should Daboll get the job.
Too bad there isn’t an “Allen” available in this year’s draft seeing that we have two picks in the top 7.
If Daboll does nothing else other than help identify and mold the next Giants QB, he was the right hire. There is no single more important thing in the NFL game today.
Well said. But I also said the same thing about Shurmur, lol.
Allen was never a bust.
Allen came with all of that.
If you want somebody who is going to develop Daniel Jones into Josh Allen, forget it, it's never going to happen.
The best we can get is for a HC and OC to look at Jones and say, "he's not the guy." Let's keep looking.
SOP no matter who , and what team.
I keep getting caught up in a lot of quotes from coaches, great coaches have great players. Not a lot the other way around. Flores seems to have been successful despite having average players. One thing that Sy keeps bringing up is the Star WR. One thing Miani does have is the Star WR with Waddle having 104 Receptions. Evan Engram led the Giants with 46 Receptions and Toney Led the WRs with 39 Rec.
Also look at the Eagles, Devonta Smith almost had 1000 Yards Rec and they made the playoffs. Something to think about.
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until Allen went from bust to elite in the span of 24 months.
Allen was never a bust.
Whatever you say man. His rookie year stunk, plain and simple. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn when throwing.
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In comment 15579716 UConn4523 said:
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until Allen went from bust to elite in the span of 24 months.
Allen was never a bust.
Whatever you say man. His rookie year stunk, plain and simple. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn when throwing.
Nobody judges a QB based on his rookie year. Allen improved steadily from year 1 to year 2. And then the big leap from Year 2 to Year 3. That is the trend of a good player, not a bust.
I keep getting caught up in a lot of quotes from coaches, great coaches have great players. Not a lot the other way around. Flores seems to have been successful despite having average players. One thing that Sy keeps bringing up is the Star WR. One thing Miani does have is the Star WR with Waddle having 104 Receptions. Evan Engram led the Giants with 46 Receptions and Toney Led the WRs with 39 Rec.
Also look at the Eagles, Devonta Smith almost had 1000 Yards Rec and they made the playoffs. Something to think about.
Allen would be great with or without talent. His traits are unique and great. Allen learned how to play in this league. That's the difference in the player.
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In comment 15579716 UConn4523 said:
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until Allen went from bust to elite in the span of 24 months.
Allen was never a bust.
Whatever you say man. His rookie year stunk, plain and simple. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn when throwing.
Come on, you don't call someone a bust after one year, especially at QB. Was Peyton a bust after his rookie year? Eli?
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until Allen went from bust to elite in the span of 24 months.
Allen was never a bust.
Very much agree Producer. These ares some good articles going thru his rookie year in Buffalo and his ups and downs. Allen had rookie struggles but more than enough wow-moments that anybody with a football head could see his star was on this rise versus busting out...
https://theathleteshub.org/rookie-review-qb-josh-allen/
https://thebuffalofanatics.com/josh-allens-rookie-year-revisited/
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In comment 15579729 Producer said:
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In comment 15579716 UConn4523 said:
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until Allen went from bust to elite in the span of 24 months.
Allen was never a bust.
Whatever you say man. His rookie year stunk, plain and simple. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn when throwing.
Come on, you don't call someone a bust after one year, especially at QB. Was Peyton a bust after his rookie year? Eli?
No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.
And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.
They can then use this year to upgrade the weak spots on the lines and use the season as Jones' last chance to show he has the stuff (or not).
As insurance, they can bring in a vet or draft someone with potential if the draft falls right for them. That then gives them room, as you suggest, to hunt for someone that maybe has the right tools but is from a small school or has some question marks.
So, if I'm him, I want a job with either (1) a good QB already in place or (2) a plan in place to acquire a good QB (draft/free agency) as soon as possible. Because the longer you can't solve for the QB the quicker you will be out of a job.
And despite what Schoen and Mara seem to think, that Jones is a good QB already in place, does Daboll really want to trust that and hitch his wagon to Jones? That is quite a leap of faith at this point.
No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.
And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.
Yeah, I posted my response before seeing your other comments. I agree with you, the idea that Daboll benefited from Allen's play yet had nothing to do with his development is specious at best. Allen was an absolute mess coming out of Wyoming, and he credits Daboll (and QB coach Ken Dorsey), with helping him get ready. That's good enough for me.
He coached a offense that won a NC at Bama for one year. Guess what, whoever Saban plugs in has (except O'Brien who has one year on staff). Other than that he seems like a lot of run of the mill NFL coaches who bounced around without really making a case he would be a good HC imv. I don't think Jones would change that.
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In comment 15579805 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15579729 Producer said:
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In comment 15579716 UConn4523 said:
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until Allen went from bust to elite in the span of 24 months.
Allen was never a bust.
Whatever you say man. His rookie year stunk, plain and simple. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn when throwing.
Come on, you don't call someone a bust after one year, especially at QB. Was Peyton a bust after his rookie year? Eli?
No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.
And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.
But was it really coaching? Or were the coaches along for the ride as this enormously talented player adjusted to the league?
For the folks on the *it's coaching* side of the ledger, then just get the coach and have him work on Jones makes sense.
For the folks, like me, who are on the *it's talent* side of the ledger, we are sure Allen had good coaching but it is foolish to think Daboll will come here and turn Jones into Allen. He lacks the talent. We have to find a more talented QB to pair with Daboll.
I give Daboll a ton of credit for his work with Josh Allen, but if his previous inability to field even a middling offense doesn’t give one pause, I’m not sure what to say.
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No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.
And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.
Yeah, I posted my response before seeing your other comments. I agree with you, the idea that Daboll benefited from Allen's play yet had nothing to do with his development is specious at best. Allen was an absolute mess coming out of Wyoming, and he credits Daboll (and QB coach Ken Dorsey), with helping him get ready. That's good enough for me.
I don't think anyone says Allen was not effectively coached up. He clearly got better year over year. But no one posting here knows who was the most responsible. Was it Dorsey? McDermott? Daboll? Someone else on that staff? Was it a wholly collective effort on the part of the staff? None of us has any idea.
I see all this defense of who people want (and I get it) but the truth is we don't really know what happened in Buffalo or what to expect here from one guy who we bring in as the head coach. And having said that I like Flores, but I certainly wouldn't hate signing Daboll. None of us really has a clue, but I'm just surprised at such strong opinions about it.
THIS. 100%
I’m not comfortable putting all my eggs in the DJones basket, especially seeing how fragile he is by taking all those hits. His body is not nearly as thick as Allen or Jackson and he doesn’t know how to go down properly.
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In comment 15579880 UConn4523 said:
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No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.
And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.
Yeah, I posted my response before seeing your other comments. I agree with you, the idea that Daboll benefited from Allen's play yet had nothing to do with his development is specious at best. Allen was an absolute mess coming out of Wyoming, and he credits Daboll (and QB coach Ken Dorsey), with helping him get ready. That's good enough for me.
I don't think anyone says Allen was not effectively coached up. He clearly got better year over year. But no one posting here knows who was the most responsible. Was it Dorsey? McDermott? Daboll? Someone else on that staff? Was it a wholly collective effort on the part of the staff? None of us has any idea.
I see all this defense of who people want (and I get it) but the truth is we don't really know what happened in Buffalo or what to expect here from one guy who we bring in as the head coach. And having said that I like Flores, but I certainly wouldn't hate signing Daboll. None of us really has a clue, but I'm just surprised at such strong opinions about it.
I’m not claiming to know although it’s definitely a combination of everything to varying degrees.. My comment is about this years QB prospects, Allen came in with lots of scrutiny. That’s it.
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In comment 15579880 UConn4523 said:
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No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.
And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.
Yeah, I posted my response before seeing your other comments. I agree with you, the idea that Daboll benefited from Allen's play yet had nothing to do with his development is specious at best. Allen was an absolute mess coming out of Wyoming, and he credits Daboll (and QB coach Ken Dorsey), with helping him get ready. That's good enough for me.
I don't think anyone says Allen was not effectively coached up. He clearly got better year over year. But no one posting here knows who was the most responsible. Was it Dorsey? McDermott? Daboll? Someone else on that staff? Was it a wholly collective effort on the part of the staff? None of us has any idea.
I see all this defense of who people want (and I get it) but the truth is we don't really know what happened in Buffalo or what to expect here from one guy who we bring in as the head coach. And having said that I like Flores, but I certainly wouldn't hate signing Daboll. None of us really has a clue, but I'm just surprised at such strong opinions about it.
Josh Allen himself praised the work of both Daboll and Dorsey, so we have a bit of a clue.
He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?
Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.
He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?
Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.
Most of Josh Allen's big plays are completely out of structure. They didn't coach him to be good at that. You guys are overrating what a coach can do with a QB. He doesn't have a coach in his ear telling him how to evade a rush, how to keep his cool, how to keep his eyes downfield and wait until a play unfolds. That's all auto reaction. If you think Daboll is going to coach Jones into Allen you are sadly mistaken.
It's not a coincidence that Josh Allen is one of the four most talented QBs in the league and also one of the best.
You can't coach a mediocre talent like Jones to become a stud like Allen. Stop fantasizing about it.
We already have that ……F R O M M. -;)
Couldn’t resist….
The best thing Daboll can do for us is look at Daniel Jones and be honest about his ceiling. And then tell Mara, he's not the guy.
That is what Daboll can be good for. He spent a few years with an absolute elite talent, so he should know an elite talent when he sees one. That's worth something. Anything to stop the pussyfooting around with Jones, and the endless period of evaluation that some posters think he *deserves*.
Jones doesn't deserve anything more from the Giants. We already made him a millionaire.
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why did he last until the 7th pick (3rd QB off the board)?
He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?
Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.
Most of Josh Allen's big plays are completely out of structure. They didn't coach him to be good at that. You guys are overrating what a coach can do with a QB. He doesn't have a coach in his ear telling him how to evade a rush, how to keep his cool, how to keep his eyes downfield and wait until a play unfolds. That's all auto reaction. If you think Daboll is going to coach Jones into Allen you are sadly mistaken.
It's not a coincidence that Josh Allen is one of the four most talented QBs in the league and also one of the best.
You can't coach a mediocre talent like Jones to become a stud like Allen. Stop fantasizing about it.
I love your posting with such authority on all matters Josh Allen. We all know his size and arm talent, you aren’t the only one who recognized those attributes. But we’ve also seen similarly talented players fail, hence why it’s an interesting scenario and why people are wondering how much input Daboll and his other coaches have had.
Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
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why did he last until the 7th pick (3rd QB off the board)?
He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?
Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.
Most of Josh Allen's big plays are completely out of structure. They didn't coach him to be good at that. You guys are overrating what a coach can do with a QB. He doesn't have a coach in his ear telling him how to evade a rush, how to keep his cool, how to keep his eyes downfield and wait until a play unfolds. That's all auto reaction. If you think Daboll is going to coach Jones into Allen you are sadly mistaken.
It's not a coincidence that Josh Allen is one of the four most talented QBs in the league and also one of the best.
You can't coach a mediocre talent like Jones to become a stud like Allen. Stop fantasizing about it.
Who said he would turn Jones into Allen? He would be being brought here to coach whoever replaces Jones.
And I will let the statement that Allen is achieving everything off script to stand as it is as most people can fully evaluate that on their own.
But at least on the bright side, the Giants can't screw up the coaching staff hires because coaching doesn't matter!
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In comment 15580308 Mike from Ohio said:
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why did he last until the 7th pick (3rd QB off the board)?
He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?
Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.
Most of Josh Allen's big plays are completely out of structure. They didn't coach him to be good at that. You guys are overrating what a coach can do with a QB. He doesn't have a coach in his ear telling him how to evade a rush, how to keep his cool, how to keep his eyes downfield and wait until a play unfolds. That's all auto reaction. If you think Daboll is going to coach Jones into Allen you are sadly mistaken.
It's not a coincidence that Josh Allen is one of the four most talented QBs in the league and also one of the best.
You can't coach a mediocre talent like Jones to become a stud like Allen. Stop fantasizing about it.
I love your posting with such authority on all matters Josh Allen. We all know his size and arm talent, you aren’t the only one who recognized those attributes. But we’ve also seen similarly talented players fail, hence why it’s an interesting scenario and why people are wondering how much input Daboll and his other coaches have had.
Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
It starts with the talent. Not with the coach. Daboll failed to distinguish himself in any regard until he had an elite talent.
You want someone who can literally turn a mediocre talent into a productive QB? Resurrect Bill Walsh. The greatest offensive mind in the history of the game. And even he wasn't satisfied with the player he resurrected, Steve DeBerg, and went out and got a great QB instead.
I am saying the coach is not the answer to the QB. Andy Reid had a really good QB and a playoff team. Wasn't enough for him. We should think the same way. Getting Daboll should not dictate whether we stick with mediocre talent.
He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?
Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.
Being drafted 7th overall is still pretty damn flattering.
Allen was drafted that high because he had elite, God given physical skills that gave him a chance to be a star.
He absolutely benefitted from coaching. But I think the coaching benefitted more from his talent.