G.T Bobby Thompson
@BThomps81
·
2m
A hold-up in the Ken Dorsey and #Giants deal to become official is the Rooney Rule. The team is obligated to interview two minorities. The team does not want to wait long on this
Jordan Schultz
@Schultz_Report
#Giants, per league rules, must also interview at least two minorities for their OC. Will be interesting to see who they bring in. Can’t imagine they want to wait very long.
The rule obviously wouldn't. The extra time gifted to Buffalo to make Dorsey a Godfather offer is what has people bugging out.
How would they have done that before Daboll was hired?
They may not feel good, but some may use it as an opportunity never the less.
Sometimes the act of interviewing and going through the process is helpful for future interviews. A candidate could look at it as a mock interview, while also acknowledging the sham.
They could also look at it as a chance to raise their profile. For example, a candidate goes in for the interview and absolutely kills it. The Giants then go with Dorsey. Dorsey has a great year and gets a HC job, and the Giants are back to looking for a new OC. The first choice, may be the candidate that would not have been considered before if they didn't take the interview.
I am not saying this is the case or that it is right or that I like how this is playing out, but I am sure that there are some candidates that would take the opportunity to raise their profile. Being interviewed could put the candidate on other's radars.
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As a man who donated to Obama in '08 & '12, HRC in '16, & Joe in '20...
Just hire best candidate regardless of race.
we get it...you make bad decisions with money, lets stick to football...hahah jk!
This is like...but some of my best friends are black........
Enough already...hire the best candidate regardless of race...we had Jerry Reese....we hae had many black coordinators....it is enough already....stop the madness.
If we felt Graham or Flores or any minority would lead us out of the wilderness,,,,,,I know the Mara's would sign up.......
Unfortunately, this is one of the rare instances where the rule is unnecessary as they already know who they want to hire. Now they will conduct a sham interview which will probably bring criticism from certain members of the media.
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In comment 15581390 Danny Kanell said:
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In comment 15581359 Straw Hat said:
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Get bombarded here, but this rooney rule stuff is ridiculous. Best man should get the job. If youre good, youre gonna get looks wether you are white, black, or purple.
+1
This sounds good, but unfortunately it hasn't worked for blacks in football or for women and blacks in many industries, which is why the Rooney rule was created. Unfortunately it probably doesn't work very well either, which is why there are so few black coaches. The implication in what you say is there are not qualified candidates who are black, but there aren't enough coaching candidates because there aren't enough coordinators who are black, etc. But at least the Rooney rule makes people consider other candidates.
We've seen the lack of blacks at quarterback improve a bit, but there's a long way to go in coaching. I don't have a better solution but I think there's probably a lot of blacks who would be really good coordinators and head coaches out there.
So when does it end? Affirmative action in some form or another has been around in the business and academic worlds now for just about half a century. Personally, if I were black, I’d feel insulted at the notion that I needed a special accommodation to get hired for a job or get accepted to a school.
To play some devils advocate, do white people feel insulted if they get into school because they are a legacy or get a job because their parent knows the boss at a company--our is that just considered networking.
See Ron Tobert is good..he gets the Super Bowl, but Jerome Boger is not.....so dismiss him, but no because he has a certain protection.....
This is not what equality is supposed to be.
This country is turning into shit
Some coaches may feel that way, but unless the owners and GMs they meet with really are bigots, these are actually invaluable opportunities. When you show up and crush interview, even as a token candidate, people remember. And maybe you don't get that job, but now you're on somebody's radar as a quality candidate for a future opening. And if nothing else, you're getting practice in high-stakes interviews which aren't easy to prepare for.
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In comment 15581359 Straw Hat said:
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Get bombarded here, but this rooney rule stuff is ridiculous. Best man should get the job. If youre good, youre gonna get looks wether you are white, black, or purple.
I agree. In the NFL it doesn't make much sense. These teams all just want to win and I think have pretty good diversity just organically.
There's one Black head coach in a league that's 70% Black...
^^^^This!
just try, for one second, taking a step back and considering your perspective is not accurate
this is shameful, from Eric on down
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In comment 15581412 Bob from Massachusetts said:
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In comment 15581390 Danny Kanell said:
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In comment 15581359 Straw Hat said:
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Get bombarded here, but this rooney rule stuff is ridiculous. Best man should get the job. If youre good, youre gonna get looks wether you are white, black, or purple.
+1
This sounds good, but unfortunately it hasn't worked for blacks in football or for women and blacks in many industries, which is why the Rooney rule was created. Unfortunately it probably doesn't work very well either, which is why there are so few black coaches. The implication in what you say is there are not qualified candidates who are black, but there aren't enough coaching candidates because there aren't enough coordinators who are black, etc. But at least the Rooney rule makes people consider other candidates.
We've seen the lack of blacks at quarterback improve a bit, but there's a long way to go in coaching. I don't have a better solution but I think there's probably a lot of blacks who would be really good coordinators and head coaches out there.
So when does it end? Affirmative action in some form or another has been around in the business and academic worlds now for just about half a century. Personally, if I were black, I’d feel insulted at the notion that I needed a special accommodation to get hired for a job or get accepted to a school.
To play some devils advocate, do white people feel insulted if they get into school because they are a legacy or get a job because their parent knows the boss at a company--our is that just considered networking.
Best candidate for the job regardless of race.....how many years will it take to make up for past wrongs....I mean that seriously? Does anyone here begrudge Schoen from choosing Daboll over a black candidate?
Does anyone think he chose not to consider a prospective guy because of race?
Really?
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In comment 15581428 lawguy9801 said:
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In comment 15581412 Bob from Massachusetts said:
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In comment 15581390 Danny Kanell said:
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In comment 15581359 Straw Hat said:
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Get bombarded here, but this rooney rule stuff is ridiculous. Best man should get the job. If youre good, youre gonna get looks wether you are white, black, or purple.
+1
This sounds good, but unfortunately it hasn't worked for blacks in football or for women and blacks in many industries, which is why the Rooney rule was created. Unfortunately it probably doesn't work very well either, which is why there are so few black coaches. The implication in what you say is there are not qualified candidates who are black, but there aren't enough coaching candidates because there aren't enough coordinators who are black, etc. But at least the Rooney rule makes people consider other candidates.
We've seen the lack of blacks at quarterback improve a bit, but there's a long way to go in coaching. I don't have a better solution but I think there's probably a lot of blacks who would be really good coordinators and head coaches out there.
So when does it end? Affirmative action in some form or another has been around in the business and academic worlds now for just about half a century. Personally, if I were black, I’d feel insulted at the notion that I needed a special accommodation to get hired for a job or get accepted to a school.
To play some devils advocate, do white people feel insulted if they get into school because they are a legacy or get a job because their parent knows the boss at a company--our is that just considered networking.
Best candidate for the job regardless of race.....how many years will it take to make up for past wrongs....I mean that seriously? Does anyone here begrudge Schoen from choosing Daboll over a black candidate?
Does anyone think he chose not to consider a prospective guy because of race?
Really?
how many years will it take?!
slavery lasted 400 years...
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In comment 15581390 Danny Kanell said:
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In comment 15581359 Straw Hat said:
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Get bombarded here, but this rooney rule stuff is ridiculous. Best man should get the job. If youre good, youre gonna get looks wether you are white, black, or purple.
+1
This sounds good, but unfortunately it hasn't worked for blacks in football or for women and blacks in many industries, which is why the Rooney rule was created. Unfortunately it probably doesn't work very well either, which is why there are so few black coaches. The implication in what you say is there are not qualified candidates who are black, but there aren't enough coaching candidates because there aren't enough coordinators who are black, etc. But at least the Rooney rule makes people consider other candidates.
We've seen the lack of blacks at quarterback improve a bit, but there's a long way to go in coaching. I don't have a better solution but I think there's probably a lot of blacks who would be really good coordinators and head coaches out there.
So when does it end? Affirmative action in some form or another has been around in the business and academic worlds now for just about half a century. Personally, if I were black, I’d feel insulted at the notion that I needed a special accommodation to get hired for a job or get accepted to a school.
Would be great if we didn’t need any of that. But back when affirmative action was passed, a black man couldn’t get an interview for any decent job. It was necessary then and it continues to be necessary until we can look each other dead in the eye and say, with a straight face “Black people are treated equally in America”
Yeah, I’m sure none of US would deny someone a job based on skin color. But how about some of these club owners who are still around from a time when they didn’t even let black people on the team? Or are part of the family? We don’t know what’s in people’s hearts. We can’t trust them all sight unseen. We CAN trust that there is a rule that they must follow, though. I’m fine with a potential employer being forced to give me an opportunity to impress them.
What if they bring in a candidate to fulfill the Rooney Rule and he just blows everyone away? What happens then?
But still
But still
Just hire best candidate regardless of race.
Huh? You donated to Joe? What’s your point?
just try, for one second, taking a step back and considering your perspective is not accurate
this is shameful, from Eric on down
Im not claiming to know how to advance minorities, but what black investors were turned down from buying a team? I already addressed the head coaching - the facts are that most NFL players dont go into coaching, the facts are that most coaches didnt make it to the NFL, and perhaps its that more white people go into football coaching than black people
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In comment 15581390 Danny Kanell said:
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In comment 15581359 Straw Hat said:
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Get bombarded here, but this rooney rule stuff is ridiculous. Best man should get the job. If youre good, youre gonna get looks wether you are white, black, or purple.
+1
This sounds good, but unfortunately it hasn't worked for blacks in football or for women and blacks in many industries, which is why the Rooney rule was created. Unfortunately it probably doesn't work very well either, which is why there are so few black coaches. The implication in what you say is there are not qualified candidates who are black, but there aren't enough coaching candidates because there aren't enough coordinators who are black, etc. But at least the Rooney rule makes people consider other candidates.
We've seen the lack of blacks at quarterback improve a bit, but there's a long way to go in coaching. I don't have a better solution but I think there's probably a lot of blacks who would be really good coordinators and head coaches out there.
So when does it end? Affirmative action in some form or another has been around in the business and academic worlds now for just about half a century. Personally, if I were black, I’d feel insulted at the notion that I needed a special accommodation to get hired for a job or get accepted to a school.
S.Ct. just decided to take an affirmative action case against Harvard.
That being said, in this case not sure who wants to interview when the choice is predetermined
This! I think the Rooney Rule, in theory, is great but the execution can be quite demeaning.
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In comment 15581359 Straw Hat said:
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Get bombarded here, but this rooney rule stuff is ridiculous. Best man should get the job. If youre good, youre gonna get looks wether you are white, black, or purple.
+1
This sounds good, but unfortunately it hasn't worked for blacks in football or for women and blacks in many industries, which is why the Rooney rule was created. Unfortunately it probably doesn't work very well either, which is why there are so few black coaches. The implication in what you say is there are not qualified candidates who are black, but there aren't enough coaching candidates because there aren't enough coordinators who are black, etc. But at least the Rooney rule makes people consider other candidates.
We've seen the lack of blacks at quarterback improve a bit, but there's a long way to go in coaching. I don't have a better solution but I think there's probably a lot of blacks who would be really good coordinators and head coaches out there.
But here is the rub Bob. Yes, the Rooney Rule makes you consider other candidates but you end up HAVING to consider them because it is a rule NOT because they're qualified. In the end it really does a disservice to black candidates and that's very unfortunate because most people see right through it especially the minority candidates IMHO
Unfortunately, this is one of the rare instances where the rule is unnecessary as they already know who they want to hire. Now they will conduct a sham interview which will probably bring criticism from certain members of the media.
Outstanding reply Jay
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In comment 15581412 Bob from Massachusetts said:
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In comment 15581390 Danny Kanell said:
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In comment 15581359 Straw Hat said:
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Get bombarded here, but this rooney rule stuff is ridiculous. Best man should get the job. If youre good, youre gonna get looks wether you are white, black, or purple.
+1
This sounds good, but unfortunately it hasn't worked for blacks in football or for women and blacks in many industries, which is why the Rooney rule was created. Unfortunately it probably doesn't work very well either, which is why there are so few black coaches. The implication in what you say is there are not qualified candidates who are black, but there aren't enough coaching candidates because there aren't enough coordinators who are black, etc. But at least the Rooney rule makes people consider other candidates.
We've seen the lack of blacks at quarterback improve a bit, but there's a long way to go in coaching. I don't have a better solution but I think there's probably a lot of blacks who would be really good coordinators and head coaches out there.
So when does it end? Affirmative action in some form or another has been around in the business and academic worlds now for just about half a century. Personally, if I were black, I’d feel insulted at the notion that I needed a special accommodation to get hired for a job or get accepted to a school.
Would be great if we didn’t need any of that. But back when affirmative action was passed, a black man couldn’t get an interview for any decent job. It was necessary then and it continues to be necessary until we can look each other dead in the eye and say, with a straight face “Black people are treated equally in America”
Yeah, I’m sure none of US would deny someone a job based on skin color. But how about some of these club owners who are still around from a time when they didn’t even let black people on the team? Or are part of the family? We don’t know what’s in people’s hearts. We can’t trust them all sight unseen. We CAN trust that there is a rule that they must follow, though. I’m fine with a potential employer being forced to give me an opportunity to impress them.
What if they bring in a candidate to fulfill the Rooney Rule and he just blows everyone away? What happens then?
His name is Mike Tomlin
F’ing ponderous.
how many years will it take?!
slavery lasted 400 years...
You only off by a few thousand years and it still exists in the Middle East and China.
The whole notion that it is embarrassing is a very white thing to say, and I say this as a gorgeous white man.
Finally, people keep saying the Giants have to do A and do B and they do not.
They can eat the fine, which is what I think the Lions did when they hired Mariucci.
The NFL should consider partnering with college football as they have many of the same issues. The college game has about 120 division 1 programs, which is a much higher opportunity. I'd consider two things.
1. Coaches who desire becoming a HC to look to the college game where they can serve as coordinators faster and even become HC's. Many NFL HC's who had success have had college HC or coordinator experience before getting a NFL HC'ing job.
2. Work with the better HC's and encourage them to help identify and mentor future minority coordinator/HC candidates. Behind a good HC most times are some very influential mentors. The better prepared a minority candidate is the more likely they will succeed. This will have a carry over impact to more opportunities imv.
You sure are an expert on this, aren’t you?
Who is to say Poles may never got the GM job with the Bears because never got the chance to get in front of multiple teams and improve his interviews.
The Giants may not have interviewed Poles and just went after Schoen and Peters. Poles may not get the practice of meeting NFL owners and answering important questions from ownership. Nerves and Anxiety could ruin opportunities like that and its not something you can get rid of without going through the process.
Being possibly forced through the Giants interview process and learning the types of questions and HOW they are asked. This opportunity could have given him Real Life feedback for the next time around. It allows a candidate to reflect how they might have handled a question differently if the chance rises again. Maybe by going through the Giants interview allowed Poles to nail the interview with the Bears.
White executives were getting more chances and able to learn more about the process. This is a not forcing teams to hire minorities but it is opening the door to give them the valuable experience of the process.
just try, for one second, taking a step back and considering your perspective is not accurate
this is shameful, from Eric on down
Oh fuck off.
First of all, what did I say in this thread that is offensive?
Second of all, the Rooney Rule is a charade and everyone knows it. It doesn't move the needle at all in one direction or the other. But keep playing these games if it makes you feel better and somehow reduce some weird guilt you have.
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a lot of old white guys in this thread sure are certain they know what's best for the advancement of minorities and equality in a league with 0 black owners and 1 black head coach.
just try, for one second, taking a step back and considering your perspective is not accurate
this is shameful, from Eric on down
Oh fuck off.
First of all, what did I say in this thread that is offensive?
Second of all, the Rooney Rule is a charade and everyone knows it. It doesn't move the needle at all in one direction or the other. But keep playing these games if it makes you feel better and somehow reduce some weird guilt you have.
Exactly. This clown show poster gets to comfortably ridicule “old white guys” for thinking a rule is a sham and insulting to minorities while he ignores the facts slapping him right in the face. Those facts are, there are less black HCs in the league now than there were before they instituted the rule. That’s really some advancement there!
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how many years will it take?!
slavery lasted 400 years...
You only off by a few thousand years and it still exists in the Middle East and China.
just try, for one second, taking a step back and considering your perspective is not accurate
this is shameful, from Eric on down
As an old guy who started his first job in 1970 working for a Fortune 50 company that had an affirmative action plan l can tell you my experience. There were some job openings that had to be filled with a minority hire regardless of qualifications. What I saw back then was it opened opportunity for people. Over 50 years later the same arguments are being made. I believe there has been progress and I also think NFL owners are successful and competitive. Hiring the best candidate works best regardless of race.
NCAA coaches (and sometimes coordinators, but mostly coaches) and NFL Coordinators.
If you believe there has to be more minority head coaches it seems like if you "fix" those two feeder systems then the NFL head coach disparity just fixes itself.
GM is trickier but also more appropriately solvable at the source(s), not the destination IMO.
policies at the destination are window dressing IMO. as evidenced by the tweet in the OP which basically says "we need to hurry up and interview two black guys so we can officially hire the white guy we have already decided to hire"
No. It hasn’t worked. As I said, there are less black HCs now than before. Your confusing the intent of the rule with actual progress. Minorities getting interviewed is great. But they still aren’t getting hired. Sure, you can claim the doors are now opened if that’s makes you feel better. But the fact is the open doors to this point have been a mirage and not many are actually getting through those “open doors”.
To play some devils advocate, do white people feel insulted if they get into school because they are a legacy or get a job because their parent knows the boss at a company--our is that just considered networking.
If the couldn't get the position on merit alone, I think they would feel fortunate. But at the same time, they would have to feel somewhat diminished. Maybe a person's degree of self-awareness and self-value enter into it also.
Is it working the way you think it should? Debatable. Does it get taken advantage of or implemented poorly in certain occasions? Yes, like most things in life. Has it worked? Yes.
And I sure could have used this “white people club” card when I was looking for a job after graduation 20-plus years ago - my family didnt have a ton of money growing up and I had no “connections,” and it took me almost a year to find something permanent.
Now, in the corporate world, if anything there is overt and conscious discrimination against white people, and being a white male is actually a disadvantage in many hiring and other situations. Headhunters having lower requirements for “diverse” candidates….general counsel telling you to your face you are less likely to be hired because of a preference for a minority or female attorney….having a client pull business from the firm because they are unsatisfied with the percentage of minorities working on their matters (regardless of the high quality of work performed). Fuck all of this with a rusty 10-foot pole.
But in the case of the NFL, it very much is as good ol' boy club. Some of the owners have said as much.
But in the case of the NFL, it very much is as good ol' boy club. Some of the owners have said as much.
And hate to say it but it will change when some of these owners start dying off.
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does not require a "white people club."
But in the case of the NFL, it very much is as good ol' boy club. Some of the owners have said as much.
And hate to say it but it will change when some of these owners start dying off.
But in the case of the NFL, it very much is as good ol' boy club. Some of the owners have said as much.
How do you know that ? Owners want to win. They are competitive. Give the job to the best qualified.
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In comment 15581366 Jerz44 said:
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In comment 15581359 Straw Hat said:
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Get bombarded here, but this rooney rule stuff is ridiculous. Best man should get the job. If youre good, youre gonna get looks wether you are white, black, or purple.
I agree. In the NFL it doesn't make much sense. These teams all just want to win and I think have pretty good diversity just organically.
There's one Black head coach in a league that's 70% Black...
^^^^This!
And four years ago there were eight. Coaches get hired to get fired. There was a stretch of 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 7, 8, 4, 6, before the 8 in 2017.
Coaching is different than playing. Look at how many top MLB managers were/are backup catchers who rarely played during a short (if any at all) major league career.
You can't legislate out racism. You are still talking about a group of mostly multimillionaire or billionaire white guys, many who probably have had very little contact with minorities other than owner to player.