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| The Giants are currently projected to be $10.7 million over the $208.2 million cap for 2022, according to Over the Cap. So they’ll need to shed at least $10.7 million before the new league year starts on March 16. But the cuts will go much deeper since the Giants will need approximately $12.5 million to sign their draft class. Schoen also will want to dump some overpaid players to create cap space to make signings. All told, Schoen plans to shed $40 million from the cap in the coming weeks. ....... As Schoen said, that means there will be some difficult decisions ahead (along with some that are not so difficult). Here are the potential candidates for cuts, trades and pay cuts to meet Schoen’s targeted savings: |
You can't be over the cap. The Giants will have to get under by the deadline.
I agree but at the same time we know 2023 we are in much better shape and will be in even better shape.
The key here and many on this board still have not bought into this idea, is that NOBODY should be 100% safe. NOBODY!
Yes, XM. AO, LW, AT should probably be 85% safe but in reality even they could get moved if deemed necessary.
Get the cap under control, redesign/retool the roster and hope for 4-6 wins this year with an eye on MAJOR gains in 2023!
The other half is likely to come from savings from Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, and Gates - but that could be in the form of pay cuts, trades, or extensions. Cutting Martinez, Bradberry, and Gates outright would save about $25m and cost them a grand total of 2 projected starters.
i'd expect them to listen to trade offers on Slayton and Barkley but i'd doubt anyone is willing to give up anything worth it relative to their cap charges.
It is really hard to overstate what a terrible job Gettleman did with roster construction and contracts.
I still half expected him to leave the building for the final time in a Desean Jackson Eagles jersey laughing his ass off and yelling "Fuck you!!!"
No brainer - the return doesn't matter as much as the cap savings and getting something (even if it's two seventh round picks) for them before they walk for nothing.
The only reason to keep them is sentimental, wishy bullshit.
that would go against Schoen saying he doesn't want to "kick the can" down the road to get cap savings.
He wants to take the hits now.
THe team isn't good...now is the time to take the hits.
no they can cut them both free and clear if they want to save about $11m but imo both are better candidates for paycuts or pseudo paycut extensions.
Gates may not be able to play at all this year so cut on the open market his best case may be a practice squad spot or signed to stash on IR. probably a better outcome for everyone involved to bring him down to close to the minimum here for the year but extend him out a year or two to when he's more hopeful to get back on the field. he gets some security and nyg get cap savings/keep him rehabbing in the building.
Martinez' situation is different. His salary this year is $8.5m so that's what he stands to lose if cut (and what the giants stand to save against the cap). Off his injury it's doubtful he would match that on the open market (i'd guess he's looking at a 1 year deal under $5m on open market). So he's another case where it may be preferred by both sides to extend 1 extra year at lower costs (let's say 2 years, 10m in new money with cap hits around 5-7m each year?). Martinez was 1 of the few players at Schoen's press conference so presumably he wants to stick around.
Wiliams may simply be too expensive to get rid of this year, but may be gone for 2023. It all depends on what the new defensive staff thinks of him and if he is replaceable.
No brainer - the return doesn't matter as much as the cap savings and getting something (even if it's two seventh round picks) for them before they walk for nothing.
The only reason to keep them is sentimental, wishy bullshit.
out of curiosity what do you think is so valuable to use the $11m towards?
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If trading Jones and Barkley saves $11M, that is a no brainer. Combined they are not worth that much, and they aren't going to get another contract after 2022.
No brainer - the return doesn't matter as much as the cap savings and getting something (even if it's two seventh round picks) for them before they walk for nothing.
The only reason to keep them is sentimental, wishy bullshit.
out of curiosity what do you think is so valuable to use the $11m towards?
Cap space can be rolled over from year to year. I would save as much of that cap space as possible for 2023.
Over the cap with a QB on his rookie deal is borderline unfathomable
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look to do is sign LW to a long term contract. This will clear a TON off the cap this year and make LW a building block for the future on Defense.
that would go against Schoen saying he doesn't want to "kick the can" down the road to get cap savings.
He wants to take the hits now.
THe team isn't good...now is the time to take the hits.
No it does not. I didn't say restructure, I said sign long term. They are way different options. One is pushing this years cap hit to a future year for the same contract you have now. I am saying sign LW long term- 4/5 years and that changes his contract hit this year and makes him a building block going forward.
Trying to look forward and stay positive but that was just malpractice. FFS.
Did you ever notice the tortoise has a track record of knowing what he's talking about, and that you don't?
Two, the cuts aren’t exactly guys you will miss or regret. Sure Bradbury can go somewhere else and play well again, but we will all shrug our shoulders and move on. Worst case scenario is it’s a Zenitel’s situation and short term - when we need to be thinking long term.
Trading Barkley, what could we get? A 3rd, or 4th? May as well keep him. Going to have to pay his replacement, and if he plays well we will get a 3/4 comp pick back when he leaves byway. Now if we can get a conditional pick back, that’s another story…
Martinez I’d love to keep, the D sorely missed him last year
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In comment 15599779 jvm52106 said:
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look to do is sign LW to a long term contract. This will clear a TON off the cap this year and make LW a building block for the future on Defense.
that would go against Schoen saying he doesn't want to "kick the can" down the road to get cap savings.
He wants to take the hits now.
THe team isn't good...now is the time to take the hits.
No it does not. I didn't say restructure, I said sign long term. They are way different options. One is pushing this years cap hit to a future year for the same contract you have now. I am saying sign LW long term- 4/5 years and that changes his contract hit this year and makes him a building block going forward.
A restructure and contract extension are pretty much the exact same thing. You are just stretching out money now to the future. It very unlikely you want to add more years to a guy that will be 30 by the time that "extension" kicks in.
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In comment 15599787 mphbullet36 said:
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In comment 15599779 jvm52106 said:
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look to do is sign LW to a long term contract. This will clear a TON off the cap this year and make LW a building block for the future on Defense.
that would go against Schoen saying he doesn't want to "kick the can" down the road to get cap savings.
He wants to take the hits now.
THe team isn't good...now is the time to take the hits.
No it does not. I didn't say restructure, I said sign long term. They are way different options. One is pushing this years cap hit to a future year for the same contract you have now. I am saying sign LW long term- 4/5 years and that changes his contract hit this year and makes him a building block going forward.
A restructure and contract extension are pretty much the exact same thing. You are just stretching out money now to the future. It very unlikely you want to add more years to a guy that will be 30 by the time that "extension" kicks in.
They are NOT the same thing. One is changing the money for an existing contract. The other is signing him to a long term deal. It isn't semantics..
I mean, obviously, but what does that actually mean, that's my question. What happens if a team simply doesn't? March 2nd rolls around and a team hasn't cleared the space to be at or under the cap. Can't sign free agents or even draft picks - fine, we don't need to add anyone, we'll go with the guys we already have. What does the league then do?
Two, the cuts aren’t exactly guys you will miss or regret. Sure Bradbury can go somewhere else and play well again, but we will all shrug our shoulders and move on. Worst case scenario is it’s a Zenitel’s situation and short term - when we need to be thinking long term.
Trading Barkley, what could we get? A 3rd, or 4th? May as well keep him. Going to have to pay his replacement, and if he plays well we will get a 3/4 comp pick back when he leaves byway. Now if we can get a conditional pick back, that’s another story…
Martinez I’d love to keep, the D sorely missed him last year
I disagree about Barkley. While Dead money is really talked about too much-ie it doesn't matter when you are trying to save money, you save money. But, Barkley nets no dead cap hit and saves 7 mil. You take a 3rd this year and a conditional 2 (could be a 1 if parameters met) and bank on Barkley doing better with a contender in a contract year.
We are not signing Barkley long term- the writing is on the wall..
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You can't be over the cap. The Giants will have to get under by the deadline.
I mean, obviously, but what does that actually mean, that's my question. What happens if a team simply doesn't? March 2nd rolls around and a team hasn't cleared the space to be at or under the cap. Can't sign free agents or even draft picks - fine, we don't need to add anyone, we'll go with the guys we already have. What does the league then do?
they can lose draft picks, be fined and all sorts of other mayham
Trying to look forward and stay positive but that was just malpractice. FFS.
It's criminal.
Let's hope this was due to really bad coaching and widespread injury last year moreso than just lack of talent. O-line notwithstanding.
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absolutely nauseating that this team is OVER the cap and at the same time arguably the worst in football.
Let's hope this was due to really bad coaching and widespread injury last year moreso than just lack of talent. O-line notwithstanding.
All the same, something should be done about the injuries.
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In comment 15599811 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15599787 mphbullet36 said:
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In comment 15599779 jvm52106 said:
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look to do is sign LW to a long term contract. This will clear a TON off the cap this year and make LW a building block for the future on Defense.
that would go against Schoen saying he doesn't want to "kick the can" down the road to get cap savings.
He wants to take the hits now.
THe team isn't good...now is the time to take the hits.
No it does not. I didn't say restructure, I said sign long term. They are way different options. One is pushing this years cap hit to a future year for the same contract you have now. I am saying sign LW long term- 4/5 years and that changes his contract hit this year and makes him a building block going forward.
A restructure and contract extension are pretty much the exact same thing. You are just stretching out money now to the future. It very unlikely you want to add more years to a guy that will be 30 by the time that "extension" kicks in.
They are NOT the same thing. One is changing the money for an existing contract. The other is signing him to a long term deal. It isn't semantics..
You are just adding years which he likely wont' be playing for the giants (they would just end up cutting him as his production goes down). He already has 3 more years on his deal. Who would want to sign an interior defensively lineman to an extension when he is already signed into his 30's.
So essentially the extension is the same thing as a restructure at this point because Leonard Williams will not be a high priced player for the giants at 31-32 years old. He wont be on the giants anymore.
So by giving him an extension you are just stretching the dead money on Leonard Williams to more years.
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In comment 15599827 mphbullet36 said:
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In comment 15599811 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15599787 mphbullet36 said:
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In comment 15599779 jvm52106 said:
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look to do is sign LW to a long term contract. This will clear a TON off the cap this year and make LW a building block for the future on Defense.
that would go against Schoen saying he doesn't want to "kick the can" down the road to get cap savings.
He wants to take the hits now.
THe team isn't good...now is the time to take the hits.
No it does not. I didn't say restructure, I said sign long term. They are way different options. One is pushing this years cap hit to a future year for the same contract you have now. I am saying sign LW long term- 4/5 years and that changes his contract hit this year and makes him a building block going forward.
A restructure and contract extension are pretty much the exact same thing. You are just stretching out money now to the future. It very unlikely you want to add more years to a guy that will be 30 by the time that "extension" kicks in.
They are NOT the same thing. One is changing the money for an existing contract. The other is signing him to a long term deal. It isn't semantics..
You are just adding years which he likely wont' be playing for the giants (they would just end up cutting him as his production goes down). He already has 3 more years on his deal. Who would want to sign an interior defensively lineman to an extension when he is already signed into his 30's.
So essentially the extension is the same thing as a restructure at this point because Leonard Williams will not be a high priced player for the giants at 31-32 years old. He wont be on the giants anymore.
So by giving him an extension you are just stretching the dead money on Leonard Williams to more years.
Dear god, agree to disagree. You are not just adding YEARS, you are committing to him long term.
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One, is it FORCES a proper rebuild, which they have been reluctant to do for ten plus years. Actions speak louder, but the words so far say it’s a true tear down and rebuild now.
Two, the cuts aren’t exactly guys you will miss or regret. Sure Bradbury can go somewhere else and play well again, but we will all shrug our shoulders and move on. Worst case scenario is it’s a Zenitel’s situation and short term - when we need to be thinking long term.
Trading Barkley, what could we get? A 3rd, or 4th? May as well keep him. Going to have to pay his replacement, and if he plays well we will get a 3/4 comp pick back when he leaves byway. Now if we can get a conditional pick back, that’s another story…
Martinez I’d love to keep, the D sorely missed him last year
I disagree about Barkley. While Dead money is really talked about too much-ie it doesn't matter when you are trying to save money, you save money. But, Barkley nets no dead cap hit and saves 7 mil. You take a 3rd this year and a conditional 2 (could be a 1 if parameters met) and bank on Barkley doing better with a contender in a contract year.
We are not signing Barkley long term- the writing is on the wall..
We arent signing Barkley long term? Says who? What if he has another 2000yd from scrimmage year as he did as a rookie. Are we signing him then?
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If trading Jones and Barkley saves $11M, that is a no brainer. Combined they are not worth that much, and they aren't going to get another contract after 2022.
No brainer - the return doesn't matter as much as the cap savings and getting something (even if it's two seventh round picks) for them before they walk for nothing.
The only reason to keep them is sentimental, wishy bullshit.
out of curiosity what do you think is so valuable to use the $11m towards?
Not wasting it on those players is value enough. Spending it on better ones or saving it until better ones appear is fine too...
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In comment 15599837 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15599827 mphbullet36 said:
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In comment 15599811 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15599787 mphbullet36 said:
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In comment 15599779 jvm52106 said:
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look to do is sign LW to a long term contract. This will clear a TON off the cap this year and make LW a building block for the future on Defense.
that would go against Schoen saying he doesn't want to "kick the can" down the road to get cap savings.
He wants to take the hits now.
THe team isn't good...now is the time to take the hits.
No it does not. I didn't say restructure, I said sign long term. They are way different options. One is pushing this years cap hit to a future year for the same contract you have now. I am saying sign LW long term- 4/5 years and that changes his contract hit this year and makes him a building block going forward.
A restructure and contract extension are pretty much the exact same thing. You are just stretching out money now to the future. It very unlikely you want to add more years to a guy that will be 30 by the time that "extension" kicks in.
They are NOT the same thing. One is changing the money for an existing contract. The other is signing him to a long term deal. It isn't semantics..
You are just adding years which he likely wont' be playing for the giants (they would just end up cutting him as his production goes down). He already has 3 more years on his deal. Who would want to sign an interior defensively lineman to an extension when he is already signed into his 30's.
So essentially the extension is the same thing as a restructure at this point because Leonard Williams will not be a high priced player for the giants at 31-32 years old. He wont be on the giants anymore.
So by giving him an extension you are just stretching the dead money on Leonard Williams to more years.
Dear god, agree to disagree. You are not just adding YEARS, you are committing to him long term.
What incentive would LW have to add years if you aren't adding new money?
You are not just adding years. You are adding years and new money to a player that was overpaid to begin with.
I'll pass and just expect him to get cut in 2023 when he has a lower dead cap hit.
I guess one could nitpick on how many years constitutes long-term, but isn't adding years literally making a long-term commitment?
The roster also clearly lacked proper NFL coaching. I agree the LBs need changing - Ive been killing Crowder since September and advocating drafting Dean for 2 months. We know the OL and DL will be changed out and put in better positions to succeed
But look at the turnaround the Rangers have made this season with a few changes and a real NHL head coach. Coaching matters a ton
Agree but he would be 30 by the time the extension kicks in. And like you said has he given us any indication he would give us any discount?
He had a very underwhelming year for one of the highest paid DT's in the sport. I would not be interested in committing long years and $$$ to him.
No to Dean, lol.
Should be marketed heavily this offseason. We'll take a cap hit but recoup some back in picks since he still has decent value.
The Leonard Williams saga was a joke from the beginning and a perfect example of how not to run things as a GM...
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absolutely nauseating that this team is OVER the cap and at the same time arguably the worst in football.
It is really hard to overstate what a terrible job Gettleman did with roster construction and contracts.
I still half expected him to leave the building for the final time in a Desean Jackson Eagles jersey laughing his ass off and yelling "Fuck you!!!"
And I still can’t believe how people here were arguing that Gettleman was doing a good job.
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In comment 15599826 Shecky said:
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One, is it FORCES a proper rebuild, which they have been reluctant to do for ten plus years. Actions speak louder, but the words so far say it’s a true tear down and rebuild now.
Two, the cuts aren’t exactly guys you will miss or regret. Sure Bradbury can go somewhere else and play well again, but we will all shrug our shoulders and move on. Worst case scenario is it’s a Zenitel’s situation and short term - when we need to be thinking long term.
Trading Barkley, what could we get? A 3rd, or 4th? May as well keep him. Going to have to pay his replacement, and if he plays well we will get a 3/4 comp pick back when he leaves byway. Now if we can get a conditional pick back, that’s another story…
Martinez I’d love to keep, the D sorely missed him last year
I disagree about Barkley. While Dead money is really talked about too much-ie it doesn't matter when you are trying to save money, you save money. But, Barkley nets no dead cap hit and saves 7 mil. You take a 3rd this year and a conditional 2 (could be a 1 if parameters met) and bank on Barkley doing better with a contender in a contract year.
We are not signing Barkley long term- the writing is on the wall..
We arent signing Barkley long term? Says who? What if he has another 2000yd from scrimmage year as he did as a rookie. Are we signing him then?
No. Never. It's never worth signing a RB to big bucks. It almost never works out. Look at all the big dollar RB contracts in recent history. They're almost all bad and hamstrung their teams, including Zeke, CMC and Gurley.
Why do we have a fanbase that doesn't understand simple math and pushes our team to make the same mistakes over and over?
Do you want to keep losing or do you want to win?
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absolutely nauseating that this team is OVER the cap and at the same time arguably the worst in football.
Over the cap with a QB on his rookie deal is borderline unfathomable
Great point.
We are not signing Barkley long term- the writing is on the wall..
We arent signing Barkley long term? Says who? What if he has another 2000yd from scrimmage year as he did as a rookie. Are we signing him then?
No. If he is producing at that level, then his trade value will be perfect to move him for assets at the Oct deadline...
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In comment 15599703 Eric from BBI said:
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absolutely nauseating that this team is OVER the cap and at the same time arguably the worst in football.
Over the cap with a QB on his rookie deal is borderline unfathomable
Great point.
Right or wrong, ownership kind of 'went for it' last year thinking the coaching , Oline and other units were in plce to make a strong playoff run with a 3rd year DJ. The really believed in the staff and were super aggressive in filling what they thought was the remaining big holes on this roster namely the receiving core. Obviously they missed badly on their assessment of the OL and coaching staff. Throw in the catastrophic injuries and you end up with what we ended up with.
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I could see them decide he's still core moving forward and try to extend him, but at what cost. His camp didn't surrender a nickel on his current deal, and $21M per for a DT is suspect design imv.
Should be marketed heavily this offseason. We'll take a cap hit but recoup some back in picks since he still has decent value.
The Leonard Williams saga was a joke from the beginning and a perfect example of how not to run things as a GM...
It's not as if it was hindsight either. A lot of people pointed out exactly how the situation was going to play out IMMEDIATELY after the trade for LW was made.
Leonard's agent must have laughed his ass off for months about it.
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In comment 15599826 Shecky said:
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One, is it FORCES a proper rebuild, which they have been reluctant to do for ten plus years. Actions speak louder, but the words so far say it’s a true tear down and rebuild now.
Two, the cuts aren’t exactly guys you will miss or regret. Sure Bradbury can go somewhere else and play well again, but we will all shrug our shoulders and move on. Worst case scenario is it’s a Zenitel’s situation and short term - when we need to be thinking long term.
Trading Barkley, what could we get? A 3rd, or 4th? May as well keep him. Going to have to pay his replacement, and if he plays well we will get a 3/4 comp pick back when he leaves byway. Now if we can get a conditional pick back, that’s another story…
Martinez I’d love to keep, the D sorely missed him last year
I disagree about Barkley. While Dead money is really talked about too much-ie it doesn't matter when you are trying to save money, you save money. But, Barkley nets no dead cap hit and saves 7 mil. You take a 3rd this year and a conditional 2 (could be a 1 if parameters met) and bank on Barkley doing better with a contender in a contract year.
We are not signing Barkley long term- the writing is on the wall..
We arent signing Barkley long term? Says who? What if he has another 2000yd from scrimmage year as he did as a rookie. Are we signing him then?
If Schoen is a moron, yes we may sign Barkley. Let's hope he isn't.
Daniel Jones is a little more tricky. Trading him essentially tells the fanbase you are willing to tank. Whatever money saved will basically go into paying for a new QB.
No to Dean, lol.
I know, you are like PJ in hockey - he wants all his defensemen to be 6'3 220, play physically like Larry Robinson and skate like Paul Coffey. But it doesnt work that way
Dean is too small for you, I know. But Martindale's Ravens LBs were like Dean - lightweights and fast. I'd be ok with Harris from Alabama, too. Crowder has all the size you want, and he sucks. You need players, and Dean is a player
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In comment 15599844 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15599826 Shecky said:
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One, is it FORCES a proper rebuild, which they have been reluctant to do for ten plus years. Actions speak louder, but the words so far say it’s a true tear down and rebuild now.
Two, the cuts aren’t exactly guys you will miss or regret. Sure Bradbury can go somewhere else and play well again, but we will all shrug our shoulders and move on. Worst case scenario is it’s a Zenitel’s situation and short term - when we need to be thinking long term.
Trading Barkley, what could we get? A 3rd, or 4th? May as well keep him. Going to have to pay his replacement, and if he plays well we will get a 3/4 comp pick back when he leaves byway. Now if we can get a conditional pick back, that’s another story…
Martinez I’d love to keep, the D sorely missed him last year
I disagree about Barkley. While Dead money is really talked about too much-ie it doesn't matter when you are trying to save money, you save money. But, Barkley nets no dead cap hit and saves 7 mil. You take a 3rd this year and a conditional 2 (could be a 1 if parameters met) and bank on Barkley doing better with a contender in a contract year.
We are not signing Barkley long term- the writing is on the wall..
We arent signing Barkley long term? Says who? What if he has another 2000yd from scrimmage year as he did as a rookie. Are we signing him then?
If Schoen is a moron, yes we may sign Barkley. Let's hope he isn't.
There is NO way we are signing Barkley long term to big $$$ .. Look at the Bills RB's- they spent far less on backs and used multiple Backs as part of their backfield. We are not spending huge money on Barkley a RB.. The signs are there, the writing is on the wall...
Daniel Jones is a little more tricky. Trading him essentially tells the fanbase you are willing to tank. Whatever money saved will basically go into paying for a new QB.
We've been tanking with Jones.
There are cheaper alternatives in FA that will play at or above Jones's demonstrated level.
Trading Jones isn't a signal that we're tanking. It's a signal that this front office has acknowledged a past mistake and isn't going to throw good money after bad.
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but the talent still needs to rise a number of levels.
No to Dean, lol.
I know, you are like PJ in hockey - he wants all his defensemen to be 6'3 220, play physically like Larry Robinson and skate like Paul Coffey. But it doesnt work that way
Dean is too small for you, I know. But Martindale's Ravens LBs were like Dean - lightweights and fast. I'd be ok with Harris from Alabama, too. Crowder has all the size you want, and he sucks. You need players, and Dean is a player
Crowder's soft and a late draft pick, I do like Harris from Alabama. Got to have a physical presence at LB and play to back it up. I like Dean's instincts etc, but he's flat out small, bet he's about 5'11 215. I don't expect NYG to pick an ILB/WILL in the top 7.
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In comment 15599703 Eric from BBI said:
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absolutely nauseating that this team is OVER the cap and at the same time arguably the worst in football.
It is really hard to overstate what a terrible job Gettleman did with roster construction and contracts.
I still half expected him to leave the building for the final time in a Desean Jackson Eagles jersey laughing his ass off and yelling "Fuck you!!!"
And I still can’t believe how people here were arguing that Gettleman was doing a good job.
And doing it well into this last summer. Regaling from yet another great offseason and working so well with Judge.
just classic...
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In comment 15599870 Snablats said:
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In comment 15599844 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15599826 Shecky said:
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One, is it FORCES a proper rebuild, which they have been reluctant to do for ten plus years. Actions speak louder, but the words so far say it’s a true tear down and rebuild now.
Two, the cuts aren’t exactly guys you will miss or regret. Sure Bradbury can go somewhere else and play well again, but we will all shrug our shoulders and move on. Worst case scenario is it’s a Zenitel’s situation and short term - when we need to be thinking long term.
Trading Barkley, what could we get? A 3rd, or 4th? May as well keep him. Going to have to pay his replacement, and if he plays well we will get a 3/4 comp pick back when he leaves byway. Now if we can get a conditional pick back, that’s another story…
Martinez I’d love to keep, the D sorely missed him last year
I disagree about Barkley. While Dead money is really talked about too much-ie it doesn't matter when you are trying to save money, you save money. But, Barkley nets no dead cap hit and saves 7 mil. You take a 3rd this year and a conditional 2 (could be a 1 if parameters met) and bank on Barkley doing better with a contender in a contract year.
We are not signing Barkley long term- the writing is on the wall..
We arent signing Barkley long term? Says who? What if he has another 2000yd from scrimmage year as he did as a rookie. Are we signing him then?
If Schoen is a moron, yes we may sign Barkley. Let's hope he isn't.
There is NO way we are signing Barkley long term to big $$$ .. Look at the Bills RB's- they spent far less on backs and used multiple Backs as part of their backfield. We are not spending huge money on Barkley a RB.. The signs are there, the writing is on the wall...
Yes and their running game stunk and thats why they had to rely so much on Allen running and improvising. Buffalo needs a better running attack
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RB's rarely get better with age. Marshawn Lynch is about the only exception that comes to mind. Barkley is no Marshawn. I think if you can find someone willing to trade...you take it and the 7 mil in savings that comes with it.
Daniel Jones is a little more tricky. Trading him essentially tells the fanbase you are willing to tank. Whatever money saved will basically go into paying for a new QB.
We've been tanking with Jones.
There are cheaper alternatives in FA that will play at or above Jones's demonstrated level.
Trading Jones isn't a signal that we're tanking. It's a signal that this front office has acknowledged a past mistake and isn't going to throw good money after bad.
It's easy to say that there are cheaper alternatives that will play better than Jones. Facts are...people said the same thing about Glennon and Fromm. We didn't win a game without Jones at QB...not even close.
Who do you think will be cheaper and better? And who will trade for an injured QB that you think is so bad?
No brainer - the return doesn't matter as much as the cap savings and getting something (even if it's two seventh round picks) for them before they walk for nothing.
The only reason to keep them is sentimental, wishy bullshit.
The last ten years is really on ownership and shows just how incompetent they are.
It's just unbelievable.
No brainer - the return doesn't matter as much as the cap savings and getting something (even if it's two seventh round picks) for them before they walk for nothing.
The only reason to keep them is sentimental, wishy bullshit.
You are still the king of gifs. But I still liked the remake of "The Day the Earth Stood Still" with Keanu Reeves.
We've been through this a million times. Jones is 12-25 as a starter, has never spent a day over .500, and his production is awful. What are we doing here?
Tell us how you really feel.
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In comment 15599784 Go Terps said:
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If trading Jones and Barkley saves $11M, that is a no brainer. Combined they are not worth that much, and they aren't going to get another contract after 2022.
No brainer - the return doesn't matter as much as the cap savings and getting something (even if it's two seventh round picks) for them before they walk for nothing.
The only reason to keep them is sentimental, wishy bullshit.
out of curiosity what do you think is so valuable to use the $11m towards?
Cap space can be rolled over from year to year. I would save as much of that cap space as possible for 2023.
ah the myopia of a utopian future where unnamed heroes save the day. which 2023 free agents are eye balling for this splurge?
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In comment 15599703 Eric from BBI said:
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absolutely nauseating that this team is OVER the cap and at the same time arguably the worst in football.
Over the cap with a QB on his rookie deal is borderline unfathomable
Great point.
There is a strong argument to be made that Gettleman is the worst executive in the history of sports. With the amount of draft capital and cap space he had to work with, what he did to this franchise is truly incredible. You could not do worse if you tried.
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In comment 15599703 Eric from BBI said:
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absolutely nauseating that this team is OVER the cap and at the same time arguably the worst in football.
Over the cap with a QB on his rookie deal is borderline unfathomable
Great point.
+2.
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In comment 15599797 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15599784 Go Terps said:
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If trading Jones and Barkley saves $11M, that is a no brainer. Combined they are not worth that much, and they aren't going to get another contract after 2022.
No brainer - the return doesn't matter as much as the cap savings and getting something (even if it's two seventh round picks) for them before they walk for nothing.
The only reason to keep them is sentimental, wishy bullshit.
out of curiosity what do you think is so valuable to use the $11m towards?
Cap space can be rolled over from year to year. I would save as much of that cap space as possible for 2023.
ah the myopia of a utopian future where unnamed heroes save the day. which 2023 free agents are eye balling for this splurge?
The hero to save the day is Schoen. He has inherited a bad roster with bad players like Jones, Barkley, Golladay, and on and on. I want to give him every opportunity to replace the bad players with good ones.
If you believe in Schoen, you want him to build his team his way and you want to get away from the Gettleman disaster as fast as possible. If you think Gettleman did a decent job, you want to keep his players around.
I believe in Schoen.
We've been through this a million times. Jones is 12-25 as a starter, has never spent a day over .500, and his production is awful. What are we doing here?
Have you seen Trubisky and Mariota play? Is there a reason that they got paid so little last year?
Who is going to trade for Jones with such a brutal resume and coming off injury? Not sure what you mean what are we doing here...
Trubisky probably would have put up Glennon type numbers on this offense last year. Mariota arguably could have produced more on foot...but then you have the same injury risks as Jones.
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Trubisky and Mariota made less money last year combined than Jones is slated to earn this year. Both are, at minimum, Jones's equal (if you don't agree compare their reference pages - Trubisky and Mariota resumes are way more impressive than Jones's). Trubisky comes with the bonus of having spent last year with Daboll.
We've been through this a million times. Jones is 12-25 as a starter, has never spent a day over .500, and his production is awful. What are we doing here?
Have you seen Trubisky and Mariota play? Is there a reason that they got paid so little last year?
Who is going to trade for Jones with such a brutal resume and coming off injury? Not sure what you mean what are we doing here...
Trubisky probably would have put up Glennon type numbers on this offense last year. Mariota arguably could have produced more on foot...but then you have the same injury risks as Jones.
Terps just wants to toss Jones aside like an old shoe.
It's easy for the superfans to acknowledge that Gettleman was a catastrophe because he's gone, but they don't want to acknowledge that the results of his catastrophe remain.
Gettleman left a colossal mess that we are pretending is a viable NFL roster. Schoen's first job is to clean up that mess. The salary cap rules limit how much cleaning he can do in one year, but I guarantee you that by opening day 2024 nearly every player on this roster will be either retired or playing somewhere else.
I'm not sure everyone grasps the depth of the disaster the last four years. It is a total calamity in need of complete overhaul. Complete.
There is no baby in the bathwater here.
The hero to save the day is Schoen. He has inherited a bad roster with bad players like Jones, Barkley, Golladay, and on and on. I want to give him every opportunity to replace the bad players with good ones.
If you believe in Schoen, you want him to build his team his way and you want to get away from the Gettleman disaster as fast as possible. If you think Gettleman did a decent job, you want to keep his players around.
I believe in Schoen.
another dodge. Schoen is going to be shopping on the same free agent market as everyone else. One he has already said (rightfully) he'd rather not tap into at the high end.
We know exactly which players under contract will be eligible for extensions and who wont (the players he drafts the next couple years).
We also know the majority of the roster turnover is going to be via players entering the league on their first contracts from the draft pool (not UFA).
So other than satisfying your desire to sell low in the purge, what value is there in cutting players 1 year from FA who could very easily bring back comp picks next year even if they aren't part of the future here? Ereck Flowers brought the Dolphins a 4th round comp pick last year. Teddy Bridgewater qualified to return a 3rd round comp pick.
cutting them outright at very reasonable cap #'s is a flat out waste of resource and id be willing to bet a lot of money the hero doesn't do that.
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In comment 15599906 JonC said:
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but the talent still needs to rise a number of levels.
No to Dean, lol.
I know, you are like PJ in hockey - he wants all his defensemen to be 6'3 220, play physically like Larry Robinson and skate like Paul Coffey. But it doesnt work that way
Dean is too small for you, I know. But Martindale's Ravens LBs were like Dean - lightweights and fast. I'd be ok with Harris from Alabama, too. Crowder has all the size you want, and he sucks. You need players, and Dean is a player
Crowder's soft and a late draft pick, I do like Harris from Alabama. Got to have a physical presence at LB and play to back it up. I like Dean's instincts etc, but he's flat out small, bet he's about 5'11 215. I don't expect NYG to pick an ILB/WILL in the top 7.
I know we need. oline bad
But if we can grab stingley/sauce, J Johnson and Christian Harris for our first 3 picks I am will to go with that. We probably have room for 1 better than average oline in FA and in a supposed deep interior line draft, can draft OG and OC in rds. 3 ( or at 81)
Our defense would look much better Unfortunately we would still be 1 olineman short.
The reason to get rid of as many players now as possible is to better position the team in 2023 to start the rebuilding project. The more picks we accumulate in trade, the more dead cap hits we accelerate to 2022 - that's more resources to allocate (wisely, this time) to 2023 and beyond.
Crowder's soft and a late draft pick, I do like Harris from Alabama. Got to have a physical presence at LB and play to back it up. I like Dean's instincts etc, but he's flat out small, bet he's about 5'11 215. I don't expect NYG to pick an ILB/WILL in the top 7.
Dean is super prospect. Projects right there as a WILL. A bit light indeed although the rest of his attributes are top of the line.
Not a top 7 pick, but if Giants do some navigating between 10-20, then he works just fine...
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RB's rarely get better with age. Marshawn Lynch is about the only exception that comes to mind. Barkley is no Marshawn. I think if you can find someone willing to trade...you take it and the 7 mil in savings that comes with it.
Daniel Jones is a little more tricky. Trading him essentially tells the fanbase you are willing to tank. Whatever money saved will basically go into paying for a new QB.
We've been tanking with Jones.
There are cheaper alternatives in FA that will play at or above Jones's demonstrated level.
Trading Jones isn't a signal that we're tanking. It's a signal that this front office has acknowledged a past mistake and isn't going to throw good money after bad.
There arent many options to trading Jones or cutting him. His base salary is only $965K, the rest is his signing bonus and roster bonus. You would have to trade him before his roster bonus to make it worthwhile but thats not going to happen.
Jones being on the roster next season is pretty much a lock. No GOOD FA QB is going to come here on a cheap salary. You are going to pay more than you would save in trading or cutting DJ. This is why the Giants have praised him all along. They are stuck with him this season. Its a sunk cost. We should just bring in a FA and let them compete or just let Webb be the backup and draft a young QB and cut Webb when hes ready.
The only option on SB is a trade. You cant cut him because his salary is guaranteed with no bonus. If you trade him the other team is on the hook for that salary. The only way I see it possibly happening is if the Giants take on someone elses bad contract. Its not a likely option, hes most likely here next season.
The normal guys mentioned are most likely gone Bradberry, Rudolph, Dixon, Martinez and a few others. They dont have a future here so may as well start the process. I hope they are able to trade Bradberry, I think he is the only guy with value.
LWs contract is a dead weight but its pretty much an untradeable contract. Hes a good solid player and gives effort all the time. I could see extending him to make his contract a bit more reasonable. If you add 3 years he would only be 32 at the end of contract. im sure he wont take a lot less but you can kick the can a bit and still have a productive player.
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Crowder's soft and a late draft pick, I do like Harris from Alabama. Got to have a physical presence at LB and play to back it up. I like Dean's instincts etc, but he's flat out small, bet he's about 5'11 215. I don't expect NYG to pick an ILB/WILL in the top 7.
Dean is super prospect. Projects right there as a WILL. A bit light indeed although the rest of his attributes are top of the line.
Not a top 7 pick, but if Giants do some navigating between 10-20, then he works just fine...
Says the UGA fan!
Seriously tho, he's hella fun to watch play the game. The passion and instincts are something you wish every prospect had in their chest and head. IF the Giants trade down and get an extra pick or two, I can live with rolling the dice. I think his trajectory will change once he's crashing into NFL players. He's going to need to play in a 4-3 base or in a ton of extra DB packages to utilize his speed over lack of size.
The reason to get rid of as many players now as possible is to better position the team in 2023 to start the rebuilding project. The more picks we accumulate in trade, the more dead cap hits we accelerate to 2022 - that's more resources to allocate (wisely, this time) to 2023 and beyond.
Eric on LI is a spender. Even if the Giants saved $11M from jettisoning Saquon and Jones, he would advocate giving Leonard Williams a raise with those dollars.
:-)
1. Bradberry….13.5
2. Blake…………..8.5
3. Shepard………8.5
4. Rudolph………5
5. Dixon…………..2.8
6. Slayton………..2.5
7. Kaden S………2.5
8. Osimines…….1
Total……43.3 Million
Disclaimer: all were done looking at post 6/1 (not pre 6/1). There would be about 4M less with Shepard if you cut him pre 6/1; 1+M less with Bradberry
One of the first things this GM said in his opening press conference is that the cap is a mess and there are going to be difficult decisions ahead
If you have a more rosy outlook than the guy doing the work, there's a chance you should ask yourself if how you're looking at this is wrong.
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In comment 15599965 JonC said:
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Crowder's soft and a late draft pick, I do like Harris from Alabama. Got to have a physical presence at LB and play to back it up. I like Dean's instincts etc, but he's flat out small, bet he's about 5'11 215. I don't expect NYG to pick an ILB/WILL in the top 7.
Dean is super prospect. Projects right there as a WILL. A bit light indeed although the rest of his attributes are top of the line.
Not a top 7 pick, but if Giants do some navigating between 10-20, then he works just fine...
Says the UGA fan!
Seriously tho, he's hella fun to watch play the game. The passion and instincts are something you wish every prospect had in their chest and head. IF the Giants trade down and get an extra pick or two, I can live with rolling the dice. I think his trajectory will change once he's crashing into NFL players. He's going to need to play in a 4-3 base or in a ton of extra DB packages to utilize his speed over lack of size.
Oh yeah...forgot he was a 'Dawg.
Maybe we should reach for him then at #7...or maybe even #5
:-)
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In comment 15599703 Eric from BBI said:
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absolutely nauseating that this team is OVER the cap and at the same time arguably the worst in football.
Let's hope this was due to really bad coaching and widespread injury last year moreso than just lack of talent. O-line notwithstanding.
All the same, something should be done about the injuries.
I think we'll see a lot less injuries from here on out. DG loved his hurt players. Are they good? Are they bad? Who knows- unfortunately they're hurt. Oh well, better luck next year I suppose...
So fucking happy that ancient arrogant fat bastard is gone.
The reason to get rid of as many players now as possible is to better position the team in 2023 to start the rebuilding project. The more picks we accumulate in trade, the more dead cap hits we accelerate to 2022 - that's more resources to allocate (wisely, this time) to 2023 and beyond.
you don't rebuild with cap space. you rebuild with draft picks on first contracts.
players who get cut ≠ future comp picks
if you don't have free agents (not cuts) sign contracts with other teams, you don't get comp picks
if you spend more in FA than you lose, you don't get comp picks
if you cut players who other teams are willing to pay as starters you are literally throwing away draft picks.
see the names of players who returned comp picks to their former teams at the link below over the last several years - plenty of disappointments brought back picks top 150 picks. many off poor/injured years like our own Landon Collins.
maximizing draft capital >>>> maximizing cap space. or do you disagree?
https://overthecap.com/compensatory-picks/ - ( New Window )
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You don't seem to know how compensatory picks work. I'm not going to explain it to you.
The reason to get rid of as many players now as possible is to better position the team in 2023 to start the rebuilding project. The more picks we accumulate in trade, the more dead cap hits we accelerate to 2022 - that's more resources to allocate (wisely, this time) to 2023 and beyond.
Eric on LI is a spender. Even if the Giants saved $11M from jettisoning Saquon and Jones, he would advocate giving Leonard Williams a raise with those dollars.
:-)
no i'd probably advocate a 1 or 2 year extension for williams incentivized by more bonus money in return for flattening his cap hits and make his contract a better value (whether that ends up here or in a future trade).
call me crazy but like joe schoen i like players who can fairly be described as productive, dependable, and tough. and id like to keep them as affordably as possible and if not then maximize the draft capital i can get for them.
It was a shame how that all went down just to overpay for a decent DT, but there was blind faith in a clueless GM for too long.
Clear things out for the rebuild...
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You are still the king of gifs. But I still liked the remake of "The Day the Earth Stood Still" with Keanu Reeves.
Seek help immediately.
It was a shame how that all went down just to overpay for a decent DT, but there was blind faith in a clueless GM for too long.
Clear things out for the rebuild...
it all depends on what the market is. anyone is available via trade but i believe in buy low/sell high not sell low because im big sad the team sucks. watching our team lose sucks enough without watching guys like markus golden, bj hill, etc go on to play well for teams that win.
1. Bradberry….13.5
2. Blake…………..8.5
3. Shepard………8.5
4. Rudolph………5
5. Dixon…………..2.8
6. Slayton………..2.5
7. Kaden S………2.5
8. Osimines…….1
Total……43.3 Million
Disclaimer: all were done looking at post 6/1 (not pre 6/1). There would be about 4M less with Shepard if you cut him pre 6/1; 1+M less with Bradberry
#1 becomes (>)Gardner, et.al., or in house, or
#2 > Dean or Lloyd, in the 1st rd
#3> Toney, occasionally Barkey(if kept)
#4> McBride, Widemaier(sp), Ruckert; 2nd, early 3rd rd.
#5 >. Azaiza in the 4th/5th or X,
#6-8> 5th, or 6th, or FA.
Sterling Shepherd is a good example of this imbalance. Shep is currently the 26th highest paid WR in the NFL, but he has not played like top 30 WR in any season.
If the Giants cut players from the current roster it should not just be seen as moves to balance the books, but rather the Giants don't see those players as part of long term plan and the cap dollars would be better allocated to more productive players. From my POV this is a good opportunity to improve the overall talent on the team and acquire future assets.
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is the way to go. No question imv.
It was a shame how that all went down just to overpay for a decent DT, but there was blind faith in a clueless GM for too long.
Clear things out for the rebuild...
it all depends on what the market is. anyone is available via trade but i believe in buy low/sell high not sell low because im big sad the team sucks. watching our team lose sucks enough without watching guys like markus golden, bj hill, etc go on to play well for teams that win.
I didn't suggest dump, as that would only make me more sad. Nor has the market been flooded with good DTs all of a sudden.
I actually think he'll fetch a decent price only year removed from a career year and NYG covering a chunk of his big payday. Would imagine LW is our most attractive trade bait...
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is the way to go. No question imv.
It was a shame how that all went down just to overpay for a decent DT, but there was blind faith in a clueless GM for too long.
Clear things out for the rebuild...
it all depends on what the market is. anyone is available via trade but i believe in buy low/sell high not sell low because im big sad the team sucks. watching our team lose sucks enough without watching guys like markus golden, bj hill, etc go on to play well for teams that win.
I'm not sure you do believe in buy low/sell high. I don't remember you advocating to trade Jones after his fake strong rookie year. I don't remember you advocating to trade Barkley after his fake strong rookie year. I don't remember you advocating to trade for Gardner Minshew for peanuts before this season. Maybe you did and I'm not remembering correctly - if so I apologize.
I did advocate for those things and I got laughed at and insulted. I don't think fans have to stomach to actually sell high. If they did they'd be talking about trading Thomas, McKinney, Ojulari, Toney - the guys on the roster who are at or near the peak of their market value. As their rookie years expire their market value only goes down. Do you want to trade those guys this offseason? I do, because I expect we're going to be trading all or some of them for less value sometime in the next three years.
Gettleman didn't leave value. He overpaid handsomely for a house on no foundation and rot in all the walls. When you inherit that you don't hope for the market to increase the house's value. You tear it down and build a new one.
Schoen isn't starting from zero. He's starting at less than zero.
What happened was that he, and many other fans as well, saw that we finished second in the division, 1 game out of a playoff spot. The reality is we went 6-10 and finished second in a historically bad division. The organization didn't take that to account and assumed we were ready to compete. If we had finished 8-7 or even 8-8 in a normal division, I can see going for it but they fooled themselves into thinking they were a good team. What happened was that our team remained pretty much the same, teams like the Cowboys and Eagles got better and we stayed a bad team and didn't get a fluke Seattle type victory to fool the fanbase into think we were better than we were. They were incompetent.
It's easy for the superfans to acknowledge that Gettleman was a catastrophe because he's gone, but they don't want to acknowledge that the results of his catastrophe remain.
Gettleman left a colossal mess that we are pretending is a viable NFL roster. Schoen's first job is to clean up that mess. The salary cap rules limit how much cleaning he can do in one year, but I guarantee you that by opening day 2024 nearly every player on this roster will be either retired or playing somewhere else.
I'm not sure everyone grasps the depth of the disaster the last four years. It is a total calamity in need of complete overhaul. Complete.
There is no baby in the bathwater here.
The things is.
At some point you have to gut it.
It is time.
I actually like this staff, give them 2022 to clean house and get busy in 2023. Next year is dead, morn it now. Too much much dead cap and far too little talent.
Gettleman was every bit as bad as Terps claimed.
Undeniable really.
The QB is one year signed. The team doesn't even have that many long term whopper deals save for the ones listed here already. We're talking 3-4 guys here, tops?
This year was always going to be a restart anyway once DG and Judge were wacked. We'll be fine as long as this team remembers how to draft impact players again.
The key is the draft.
I did advocate for those things and I got laughed at and insulted. I don't think fans have to stomach to actually sell high. If they did they'd be talking about trading Thomas, McKinney, Ojulari, Toney - the guys on the roster who are at or near the peak of their market value. As their rookie years expire their market value only goes down. Do you want to trade those guys this offseason? I do, because I expect we're going to be trading all or some of them for less value sometime in the next three years.
in addition to comp picks it seems you also don't understand the concept of selling low. In this thread I responded (ruefully) to this comment asking where you saw so much value in the $11m of cap space.
In comment 15599784 Go Terps said:
No brainer - the return doesn't matter as much as the cap savings and getting something (even if it's two seventh round picks) for them before they walk for nothing.
The only reason to keep them is sentimental, wishy bullshit.
whatever your previous positions years ago suggesting that the only reason not to trade them now "even if it's two seventh round picks" is "sentimental, wishy bullshit" is pithy hyperbole and just factually incorrect.
if you want to keep track of a prediction here's one - there's no chance Schoen trades them for 7th round picks with their contracts about to expire because that would be literally selling lower than the 5th/6th rd comp picks the cowboys colts and chargers received for Andy Dalton Jacoby Brissett and Tyrod Taylor last year. that's not wishy bullshit just asset management 101.
If the original thesis held up:
1) you had a number of presumptive good players on rookie and/or new extensions (Jones, Barkley, Thomas, Toney, Slayton, Lawrence, McKinney, Love, Ojulari)
2) a group of free agents on shorter deals (Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Williams, Rudolph Jackson)
The Giants have 8 total players under contract beyond 2023.
The planning was right. They just got the players and contracts mostly wrong.
Link - ( New Window )
Certainly agree that nobody is truly untouchable. Make an offer for anyone on the roster, we're listening. But at what price are you willing to part with Andrew Thomas? On the trajectory he showed this past year, amidst absolute garbage around him on the OL, he showed himself to be one of the more promising pass blocking LTs in the league. One of the only guys with the arrow pointing up coming out of last season. That's a nice piece for what we assume will be a newly drafted QB in the next 1-2 years. And still three years away from needing an extension at a position you're certainly willing to pay up for if the performance merits it.
Any deal not including a first round pick and I think I'm passing. And even then I'm not sure. What say you?
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No Problem….
1. Bradberry….13.5
2. Blake…………..8.5
3. Shepard………8.5
4. Rudolph………5
5. Dixon…………..2.8
6. Slayton………..2.5
7. Kaden S………2.5
8. Osimines…….1
Total……43.3 Million
Disclaimer: all were done looking at post 6/1 (not pre 6/1). There would be about 4M less with Shepard if you cut him pre 6/1; 1+M less with Bradberry
#1 becomes (>)Gardner, et.al., or in house, or
#2 > Dean or Lloyd, in the 1st rd
#3> Toney, occasionally Barkey(if kept)
#4> McBride, Widemaier(sp), Ruckert; 2nd, early 3rd rd.
#5 >. Azaiza in the 4th/5th or X,
#6-8> 5th, or 6th, or FA.
You should be hired and work side by side with Abrams.
Who said cut him?
Certainly agree that nobody is truly untouchable. Make an offer for anyone on the roster, we're listening. But at what price are you willing to part with Andrew Thomas? On the trajectory he showed this past year, amidst absolute garbage around him on the OL, he showed himself to be one of the more promising pass blocking LTs in the league. One of the only guys with the arrow pointing up coming out of last season. That's a nice piece for what we assume will be a newly drafted QB in the next 1-2 years. And still three years away from needing an extension at a position you're certainly willing to pay up for if the performance merits it.
Any deal not including a first round pick and I think I'm passing. And even then I'm not sure. What say you?
You obviously try to maximize the return in every trade and ask for the moon. I'm not as high on Thomas as a lot of people here are; I think he's overrated because he's one of the few players and Gettleman picks that's not completely terrible.
I'd probably be willing to move him for a second or third. I don't think there's a player on the roster who is worth a first rounder on his own.
yes - of course there is a formula.
manipulating that formula to receive picks for players when their rookie deals expire is a common strategy that's been deployed around the league in recent years.
the ravens for example exploit it by primarily signing veterans who get cut by their previous teams as cap casualties like Zeitler last year, and Calais Campbell the year before that, because they don't factor into the formula, while letting their own free agents leave to bring them additional annual top 150 picks as they did last year with Ngakoue and Judon and prior years with CJ Mosley, Zadarius Smith, and more.
is this not something that is common knowledge? and why many of us (myself included) liked the idea of potentially hiring an exec from the ravens like horitz?
or are you purposefully being obtuse because it's flatly obvious that trading Barkley or Jones for 7th round picks as you suggested is bad asset management?
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Just a thought exercise because I'm curious...
Certainly agree that nobody is truly untouchable. Make an offer for anyone on the roster, we're listening. But at what price are you willing to part with Andrew Thomas? On the trajectory he showed this past year, amidst absolute garbage around him on the OL, he showed himself to be one of the more promising pass blocking LTs in the league. One of the only guys with the arrow pointing up coming out of last season. That's a nice piece for what we assume will be a newly drafted QB in the next 1-2 years. And still three years away from needing an extension at a position you're certainly willing to pay up for if the performance merits it.
Any deal not including a first round pick and I think I'm passing. And even then I'm not sure. What say you?
You obviously try to maximize the return in every trade and ask for the moon. I'm not as high on Thomas as a lot of people here are; I think he's overrated because he's one of the few players and Gettleman picks that's not completely terrible.
I'd probably be willing to move him for a second or third. I don't think there's a player on the roster who is worth a first rounder on his own.
You’d trade Thomas for a second or third? Wtf? You’re out of your damn mind.
The only reason you aren’t as high on him is because Gettleman drafted him. Trading him for a second or third is a fireable offense. Eh, who needs a good LT anyways when you can have a third round pick!
They have managed this team worse than any government agency could have. This team is more under water than the social security system.
Did you happen to see the statistic that showed the positional value. The positions that cost the least to replace in free agency are the same positions we have been drafting high over the past 10 years.... crazy
If the original thesis held up:
1) you had a number of presumptive good players on rookie and/or new extensions (Jones, Barkley, Thomas, Toney, Slayton, Lawrence, McKinney, Love, Ojulari)
2) a group of free agents on shorter deals (Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Williams, Rudolph Jackson)
The Giants have 8 total players under contract beyond 2023.
The planning was right. They just got the players and contracts mostly wrong.
Apologize as I am missing your point here.
Is this just sarcasm, and I missed it as well?
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I credit Abrams for architecting this group for a 2021 - 2023 window.
If the original thesis held up:
1) you had a number of presumptive good players on rookie and/or new extensions (Jones, Barkley, Thomas, Toney, Slayton, Lawrence, McKinney, Love, Ojulari)
2) a group of free agents on shorter deals (Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Williams, Rudolph Jackson)
The Giants have 8 total players under contract beyond 2023.
The planning was right. They just got the players and contracts mostly wrong.
Apologize as I am missing your point here.
Is this just sarcasm, and I missed it as well?
As I posted above, there are eight players under contract in 2024 (9 if you count Thomas’s option).
Thomas, Golladay, Ojulari, Toney, Robinson, Smith, Brightwell, Roche.
The turnover is going to happen without even trying. There just aren’t many guys on this roster you’d even imagine extending to add to the above.
3. DE Jerry Hughes, CB Jordan Poyer, and S Michah Hyde. None of those three guys were drafted by the previous regime - they were all FAs from other teams. You know how many guys from the previous regime they re-signed when their rookie contract expired? Zero.
In 4 years they turned over 50 of 53 players and retained none of the previous regime's rookie contract players.
If you look at Gettleman's record here from 2018 to 2021, you'll see a similar, almost complete, turnover.
There is going to be a massive roster turnover here, and I doubt any of these guys are here the next time the Giants win a playoff game. I'd just as get the rebuild started as soon and as thoroughly as possible.
They just picked the wrong guys to fit into slots.
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absolutely nauseating that this team is OVER the cap and at the same time arguably the worst in football.
Did you happen to see the statistic that showed the positional value. The positions that cost the least to replace in free agency are the same positions we have been drafting high over the past 10 years.... crazy
I don't want to go into every position to make the point here but it is just comical how the Gettleman-era treated running backs.
* As soon as Free Agency opened in 2018, this moron gave a ridiculous contract to a broken down, semi-retired Jonathan Stewart
* In the QB-rich draft of 2018, he wastes the overall #2 pick on Saquon versus picking a more valuable position or trading down
* In the first few days of 2020 Free Agency, he signs Dion Lewis who was in serious decline and dumped by the Titans
* In the first day of 2021 Free Agency period, Booker becomes the highly coveted choice at RB for the Giants
It's like someone told Getts that the world's supply of running backs was being depleted over the past 4 years, and that he needed to be the first to market to grab them in case they happen to be sold out. And while a team needs a depth chart with a couple RBs, nobody suggests that you have to make it the top priority in your dubious gameplan of building a "winning roster".
Lord, did he suck at this...
Also in part bc they structured all of the FA contracts in the judge era much better than they did with Solder and the 2016 FA classes to make them much easier to maneuver out of whether it's this year or next.
under judge they started doing a lot more things right...except win. the extra picks and young roster are likely why the opportunity was more appealing here for schoen than say Chicago, who has done better on the field but with an older roster and fewer picks.
3. DE Jerry Hughes, CB Jordan Poyer, and S Michah Hyde. None of those three guys were drafted by the previous regime - they were all FAs from other teams. You know how many guys from the previous regime they re-signed when their rookie contract expired? Zero.
In 4 years they turned over 50 of 53 players and retained none of the previous regime's rookie contract players.
If you look at Gettleman's record here from 2018 to 2021, you'll see a similar, almost complete, turnover.
There is going to be a massive roster turnover here, and I doubt any of these guys are here the next time the Giants win a playoff game. I'd just as get the rebuild started as soon and as thoroughly as possible.
what beane did his first year in buffalo is very interesting - his trades especially because he was very active.
at the draft he traded down from pick #10 (Mahomes) to add an extra 1st for 2018 which they then used to maneuver to get Josh Allen. his 2 year haul of first round picks ended up rd 1 2017 Tredavious White, rd 1 2018 Josh Allen (trade up), rd 1 2018 Tremaine Edmunds. 3/3 all pros. And got himself a LT in 2017 in the 3rd round. that's basically the core of a division winner right there.
the next series of interesting trades were preseason where he got rid of the previous regimes first round picks. Watkins for 2nd and Darby for a 3rd. Also eventually traded Dareus in-season ahead of the trade deadline but only for a 5th.
the most ironic thing though is that even though they were 2-6 and selling at the deadline, his biggest trade was as a buyer to acquire kelvin benjamin for a 3rd round pick and a 7th round pick. so at long last we've found a trade somewhat comparable to the leonard williams deal.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2017_trades.htm - ( New Window )
They just picked the wrong guys to fit into slots.
Zero roster planning, poor timing on acquiring critical assets, picking the wrong guys in desperate fashion in the draft and giving many free agents ridiculous contracts were the cornerstones of this past regime. And it occurred from the beginning of 2018 thru the spring of 2021.
If you like the planning and timing component of how this latest crappy roster was left for dead by January 2022, then I can assure you it was merely a coincidence.
Again apologies, as I think it might have been better as sarcasm...
:-)
just sayin'...
the kicker is he also cost them a 4th round comp pick for tomlinson. just a brutal risk to take given the injury history.
just sayin'...
age ≠ success. it's context to christian's point that there was a plan. it just wasn't a successful one.
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is there are very successful and unsuccessful teams in every one of those quadrants.
just sayin'...
age ≠ success. it's context to christian's point that there was a plan. it just wasn't a successful one.
The chart basically tells you disregard age in determining success, although I think we all know better. Not all players age the same.
And I wouldn't get all that caught up in deciphering a plan that is root-based on picking the wrong players...
Agree that not much is being proved...
Gettleman’s issue was abysmal talent evaluation.
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In comment 15599703 Eric from BBI said:
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absolutely nauseating that this team is OVER the cap and at the same time arguably the worst in football.
Did you happen to see the statistic that showed the positional value. The positions that cost the least to replace in free agency are the same positions we have been drafting high over the past 10 years.... crazy
I don't want to go into every position to make the point here but it is just comical how the Gettleman-era treated running backs.
* As soon as Free Agency opened in 2018, this moron gave a ridiculous contract to a broken down, semi-retired Jonathan Stewart
* In the QB-rich draft of 2018, he wastes the overall #2 pick on Saquon versus picking a more valuable position or trading down
* In the first few days of 2020 Free Agency, he signs Dion Lewis who was in serious decline and dumped by the Titans
* In the first day of 2021 Free Agency period, Booker becomes the highly coveted choice at RB for the Giants
It's like someone told Getts that the world's supply of running backs was being depleted over the past 4 years, and that he needed to be the first to market to grab them in case they happen to be sold out. And while a team needs a depth chart with a couple RBs, nobody suggests that you have to make it the top priority in your dubious gameplan of building a "winning roster".
Lord, did he suck at this...
I did not have an issue with the Booker signing. I had a feeling that Barkley was not going to be ready to play with his knee and/or he would get hurt again. Booker was fine.
The other RB signings did not make sense.
Gettleman’s issue was abysmal talent evaluation.
Yes, awful talent evaluator. But its also not so simple and neatly wrapped as the short thesis you laid out above...
* He missed in evaluating the entire roster in 2018
* He made awful free agent signings in 2018 and 2019
* He had no concept of positional awareness for the draft
* He panicked with his targeted draft selections
* He was out-negotiated numerous times with players/agents
* He overestimated the adequacy of proposed solutions on the OL over several years
* He was completely reactive and almost never proactive
* Given a 100 years, he would never build a winning team
he sucked...
Either by coincidence, influence, or some other character’s involvement — when Judge came into the picture in 2020 the framework of the contracts and commitments changed.
Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan’s extension, Jackson, and Williams were all three year deals. The only financial commitment made beyond 2023 was to Golladay.
They put all of their free agent financial eggs into a 2021-2023 basket. And filled the roster with young, cheap players.
It’s the only silver lining from the era. The stink will subside soon.
And, as I posted in another similar thread, contemplating second contracts or tags to the likes of a Saquon Barkley is just more of the same nonsense...
barkley is under contract and less overpaid and more talented than enough others so there's no decision to make unless another team picks up the phone and offers something good enough to trade him.
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Just a thought exercise because I'm curious...
Certainly agree that nobody is truly untouchable. Make an offer for anyone on the roster, we're listening. But at what price are you willing to part with Andrew Thomas? On the trajectory he showed this past year, amidst absolute garbage around him on the OL, he showed himself to be one of the more promising pass blocking LTs in the league. One of the only guys with the arrow pointing up coming out of last season. That's a nice piece for what we assume will be a newly drafted QB in the next 1-2 years. And still three years away from needing an extension at a position you're certainly willing to pay up for if the performance merits it.
Any deal not including a first round pick and I think I'm passing. And even then I'm not sure. What say you?
You obviously try to maximize the return in every trade and ask for the moon. I'm not as high on Thomas as a lot of people here are; I think he's overrated because he's one of the few players and Gettleman picks that's not completely terrible.
I'd probably be willing to move him for a second or third. I don't think there's a player on the roster who is worth a first rounder on his own.
Interesting, certainly a difference in the evaluation of the player between you and I but it's possible I am overrating slightly. It's also possible that DG did get one thing right with this pick. I like how he's progressed, essentially since Columbo's mid season firing.
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Again I'm not sure you understand how comp picks work. There's a formula employed...it's not a straight player for pick swap. Link - ( New Window )
yes - of course there is a formula.
manipulating that formula to receive picks for players when their rookie deals expire is a common strategy that's been deployed around the league in recent years.
the ravens for example exploit it by primarily signing veterans who get cut by their previous teams as cap casualties like Zeitler last year, and Calais Campbell the year before that, because they don't factor into the formula, while letting their own free agents leave to bring them additional annual top 150 picks as they did last year with Ngakoue and Judon and prior years with CJ Mosley, Zadarius Smith, and more.
is this not something that is common knowledge? and why many of us (myself included) liked the idea of potentially hiring an exec from the ravens like horitz?
or are you purposefully being obtuse because it's flatly obvious that trading Barkley or Jones for 7th round picks as you suggested is bad asset management?
Why are you wasting your time going back and forth with the board GM. The new GM of the Giants the one who actually gets paid will make the decisions he believes is best for the franchise. I heard Terps put in a resume and they told him they were not interested, kind of of like 90% of this board is in what he thinks. He is now interested in trading the rest of any potential talented players left on the current roster. Because, this of course makes sense to no one but him. I am looking forward to this new GM and his staff recruiting quality players to add to those they believe are talented enough to wear Giants Jerseys! It is a new era looking forward to Monday and the beginning of the 2022-23 season.
feels like chopper is back in town, maybe...
I wish you were a Jets fan Twerp
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Don't be mad, dupe.
I wish you were a Jets fan Twerp
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In comment 15601257 Go Terps said:
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Don't be mad, dupe.
I wish you were a Jets fan Twerp
I pictured you would look something like that and react something like this.
Link - ( New Window )