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| Conspiracy theories aside, the Giants sounded the "Jones is gonna be just fine" sirens soon after Judge and Gettleman were gone in January. They did not, however, exercise the fifth-year option on Jones' rookie contract, something teams routinely do when they are completely satisfied with the progress of any young player, particularly a quarterback (unless they offer that player a hefty new deal instead). Jones ranked 26th in DVOA last year, his third straight season in the bottom quartile among starters. He ranked third-worst in failed completions and dead last among 34 qualified starters in ALEX. There were extenuating circumstances, like the inscrutable Judge, paint-by-numbers coordinator Jason Garrett, and another season behind a flimsy offensive line. There were also a few positive indicators. Per Sports Info Solutions, Jones ranked fifth in adjusted net yards per attempt on 15-plus-yard passes, ahead of Aaron Rodgers and Matthew Stafford. Still, there aren't nearly enough splits to suggest that Jones is some undiscovered Josh Allen. Even Jones' rushing was a net negative according to DVOA and DYAR. The fifth-year option would cost the Giants a little over $22 million guaranteed in 2023. Failure to exercise the option makes Jones a free agent at the end of the 2022 season. If Jones enjoys a breakout year under Daboll and his staff, the Giants will probably be forced to franchise tag him at a salary of around $35 million. But if Jones cements his status among the bottom quartile of NFL starters and/or suffers through another injury-marred season, the Giants can move on for free. The Giants have until May 2 to decide. As of now, it sure appears that they are hedging in the direction of not anticipating that breakout season. Schoen and Daboll might simply have been waiting to see Jones in the building for a few days, healthy and bushy-tailed, before making their contract decision. Perhaps they are waiting until they process more contracts for players like Adoree' Jackson before they commit any 2023 money to Jones (and defensive tackle Dexter Lawrence, whose fifth-year option will cost the Giants around $11 million to exercise). They possibly have one eye on Baker Mayfield or Jimmy Garoppolo if one becomes available for a third-day draft pick. There are also political factors. Owner John Mara, who hates being portrayed as a meddler but not enough to stop, thinks of Jones as Eli Manning Junior and his Giants as grand custodians of the sport who approach the development of young quarterbacks with old-fashioned patience and care. Mara has made it clear that he wants Jones to get an "intelligent evaluation" under better conditions. Daboll, meanwhile, has his Josh Allen-certified quarterback guru reputation to protect and enhance. Mara hired Daboll to turn Jones into Allen. Daboll knows it. So Daboll must be diplomatic about any potential pivot to Plan B. In summary, Jones isn't the Giants starting quarterback in 2022 because he's still a top prospect. He the Giants starter because: a) he's cheap in 2022; b) any replacement would cost money and resources the team doesn't have; and c) the guy who signs the checks loves him. |
Debating whether it’s been resolved, and skepticism some of those elements remain in the organization seems like a particularly relevant topic to discuss.
Why not? is a perfectly fine rationale for keeping a bottom of the roster guy. It’s an irresponsible rationale for keeping a starting QB.
The Giants need to figure out so much, and soon. Is Daboll a good HC, is Kafka a good OC, is Schoen a good GM, is Barkley worth an extension, is receiver group good enough etc.?
And there’s no time to waste. They need to figure this stuff out ASAP.
If Jones is just there because he’s cheap and the owner likes him, that’s ridiculous.
Cool. The rest of us will hope the Giants become a competitive team.
I get he's an owner and can do whatever he wants. But don't tell me he wants to win when he's injecting himself and his brother into the football operations like a fantasy football owner.
Winning isn't as important to him as doing it the way he and his ridiculous family have been doing it. As fans we're stuck hoping his shitty methods luck into success, because there is no quality methodology here.
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In comment 15659005 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15658978 djm said:
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i'm not being objective but i can't go one thread without saying every player drafted by DG is trash.
I said my peace. I don't even like Jones long term here at all....but the middle ground take doesn't jive with the extreme take.
And I still think it's too early to conclude anything about this off-season. Jones could be traded tomorrow for all we know.
Or, he's the best qb on the team and the staff knows this based on their observation. I mean we're talking Tyrod Fucking Taylor here and a supposed weaker QB draft class, although that's not etched in stone either.
Whatever works. Hope everything works out for NYG in the end. That's all I want.
Are you fucking serious?
DG ran the team into the ground. Took a bad team and made it the worst for his tenure. What part of football do you actually understand? It's not the cap. It's the roster. It's not the management. What part is it?
WTF are you talking about? Pick a fight with someone else. I never defended DG.
Uhhh...
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i'm not being objective but i can't go one thread without saying every player drafted by DG is trash.
You missed the point. Not worth it just move on but I am surprised you're harping on it.
Or do you want to cut the likes of Andrew Thomas, Ojulari and McKinney?
That was my point. He sucked. Full stop. I don't know how many times I need to say that.
I think it's more likely that they all talked and Mara said what he thought and then Schoen and Daboll said their peace and that was that. I don't think Mara is forcing anyone's hand and this is coming from someone who started a thread CRUSHING a few years ago. I crush Mara for his firings/hirings more than any supposed meddling, but maybe he's worse than I feared.
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In comment 15659005 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15658978 djm said:
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i'm not being objective but i can't go one thread without saying every player drafted by DG is trash.
I said my peace. I don't even like Jones long term here at all....but the middle ground take doesn't jive with the extreme take.
And I still think it's too early to conclude anything about this off-season. Jones could be traded tomorrow for all we know.
Or, he's the best qb on the team and the staff knows this based on their observation. I mean we're talking Tyrod Fucking Taylor here and a supposed weaker QB draft class, although that's not etched in stone either.
Whatever works. Hope everything works out for NYG in the end. That's all I want.
Are you fucking serious?
DG ran the team into the ground. Took a bad team and made it the worst for his tenure. What part of football do you actually understand? It's not the cap. It's the roster. It's not the management. What part is it?
DG never got us a 2nd overall pick.
DG never won more than 5 games. DG never got us 2 SBs.
DG was the worst GM in the NFL, and potentially the worst GM in Giants history.
Relax, Saquads.
I mean technically he did contribute to the 2SBs because as a scout he contributed to signing Barrow, Burress, Pierce, Tynes
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In comment 15659013 Spiciest Memelord said:
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In comment 15659005 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15658978 djm said:
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i'm not being objective but i can't go one thread without saying every player drafted by DG is trash.
I said my peace. I don't even like Jones long term here at all....but the middle ground take doesn't jive with the extreme take.
And I still think it's too early to conclude anything about this off-season. Jones could be traded tomorrow for all we know.
Or, he's the best qb on the team and the staff knows this based on their observation. I mean we're talking Tyrod Fucking Taylor here and a supposed weaker QB draft class, although that's not etched in stone either.
Whatever works. Hope everything works out for NYG in the end. That's all I want.
Are you fucking serious?
DG ran the team into the ground. Took a bad team and made it the worst for his tenure. What part of football do you actually understand? It's not the cap. It's the roster. It's not the management. What part is it?
DG never got us a 2nd overall pick.
DG never won more than 5 games. DG never got us 2 SBs.
DG was the worst GM in the NFL, and potentially the worst GM in Giants history.
Relax, Saquads.
I mean technically he did contribute to the 2SBs because as a scout he contributed to signing Barrow, Burress, Pierce, Tynes
Clearly while DG was twiddling his thumbs and only contributed to one measly super bowl.
DG you imgrate!
I like the resumes of Schoen and Daboll. IF they are allowed to run the team as they see fit with minimal (there will always be some) Mara family interference, they have a chance to turn the Giants around.
IF Schoen and Daboll accepted their jobs knowing full well that the Mara family will really be the ones in charge in the shadows, we're doomed.
I think it's more likely that they all talked and Mara said what he thought and then Schoen and Daboll said their peace and that was that. I don't think Mara is forcing anyone's hand and this is coming from someone who started a thread CRUSHING a few years ago. I crush Mara for his firings/hirings more than any supposed meddling, but maybe he's worse than I feared.
Given than we have a new GM and a new HC, if the Giants pick up DJ's 5y option, I'm confident that it was a Mara mandate, since JS and BD will not have seen DJ do anything other than push some dumbbells off his chest before that decision is due to be made.
I think it's more likely that they all talked and Mara said what he thought and then Schoen and Daboll said their peace and that was that. I don't think Mara is forcing anyone's hand and this is coming from someone who started a thread CRUSHING a few years ago. I crush Mara for his firings/hirings more than any supposed meddling, but maybe he's worse than I feared.
The unfortunate result of Mara's past 'meddling' is that any decision Schoen makes that people don't like could be blamed on Mara meddling again. If Schoen is what we hope, he will manage Mara.
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In comment 15658993 djm said:
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Just save me the bullshit that negative fans predicting doom and gloom are always correct. I've been rooting for NYG for 40 years now and seen this team defy the expectations of many countless times.
I was told right here that the 2011 Giants were going to suck ass. 2007 team was dead men walking. 2005 team was not ready yet.
It aint that easy. Bravo, some of you were right about DG's Giants. Congratulations?
I'm really not in the "being right business" around here.
Now, I'm not hesitant to put my ass on the line about situations, and thus be held accountable when I am wrong (which occurs plenty); but I do not keep score.
I evaluate the circumstances and try to make reasonable conclusions. Do I add colorful language for effect? Sure. But Mara deserves to be crushed with the best language available since he's firmly secured a position as one of the worst owners in professional sports.
That's fine i agree with this word for word. And for the record I might call you out a lot but in the end I think you're a good poster here. You own your takes. I'd like to think I do too but maybe I am guilty of rambling or sort of drifting into rantville. I try to own that too and even go as far to apologize to people here if things get heated.
If I see something I don't agree with I am going to post. I am wrong at times and right at times. When I see people pile on and say that MAra has forced the hand of Schoen, I am going to call it out or at least examine this take.
Having to then return volley on how bad the franchise has been is tiresome. We know that already.
It's not going away until the team demonstrates tangible, positive growth on gameday. Hope is fine but it isn't tangible, while actual results are. Why do you torture yourself on these threads? No one you oppose here is suddenly going to choose unwarranted sunshine.
I'm happy to be proven wrong, finally. Giants have been a disaster for more than a decade. Amateur hour in many respects, I wish and hope for the embarrassment to cease.
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if you think Mara is literally forcing Schoen and Daboll to cater to Jones, fucking own it right here.
I think it's more likely that they all talked and Mara said what he thought and then Schoen and Daboll said their peace and that was that. I don't think Mara is forcing anyone's hand and this is coming from someone who started a thread CRUSHING a few years ago. I crush Mara for his firings/hirings more than any supposed meddling, but maybe he's worse than I feared.
The unfortunate result of Mara's past 'meddling' is that any decision Schoen makes that people don't like could be blamed on Mara meddling again. If Schoen is what we hope, he will manage Mara.
Beat it, Mike. You cast your die with your previous post. You'd prefer to seek entertainment from a BBI meltdown than to have the Giants be good at football.
I think it’s worse. I think they don’t feel they influence or interrupt.
But anyone who’s ever worked for an owner, investor, board etc., that claims they are hands off, but everyone in the building knows their opinions and preferences — knows how disruptive that is.
Given than we have a new GM and a new HC, if the Giants pick up DJ's 5y option, I'm confident that it was a Mara mandate, since JS and BD will not have seen DJ do anything other than push some dumbbells off his chest before that decision is due to be made.
Do you actually believe the only information the they have on Jones is how much he can curl? I suppose they have refused to watch any tape, look at medicals, watch him this week. It's fine to want the Giants to move on, but it leads to some really silly comments.
I think it’s worse. I think they don’t feel they influence or interrupt.
But anyone who’s ever worked for an owner, investor, board etc., that claims they are hands off, but everyone in the building knows their opinions and preferences — knows how disruptive that is.
And the good managers will manage the situation...the bad ones will be walked all over. We all know why Gettleman was brought it...continuity. I do not believe Schoen was brought in for that.
QBs on Rookie deals is a massive advantage. See KC.
Since when? He signed that $500M extension right after winning the SB.
Like just about any other profession when your don't do your job well supervision amps up. In the Giants case it means Mara meddling.
Progress Wins LMM
Minimal Progress Few Wins HMM
For a guy that had Jones rated so highly and supported him early on that’s harsh! Who’s your favorite QB in this draft? Hopefully we don’t draft him whoever it is. ,
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For Jones's sake the less Schoen and Daboll know about him, the better.
For a guy that had Jones rated so highly and supported him early on that’s harsh! Who’s your favorite QB in this draft? Hopefully we don’t draft him whoever it is. ,
I did think he was the second best QB in that draft. Then I watched him play and I did this crazy thing called thinking. I formed an opinion based on what was actually happening, and not what I wanted to see.
I know we're not supposed to do much of it but I can't help myself.
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In comment 15659061 Go Terps said:
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For Jones's sake the less Schoen and Daboll know about him, the better.
For a guy that had Jones rated so highly and supported him early on that’s harsh! Who’s your favorite QB in this draft? Hopefully we don’t draft him whoever it is. ,
I did think he was the second best QB in that draft. Then I watched him play and I did this crazy thing called thinking. I formed an opinion based on what was actually happening, and not what I wanted to see.
I know we're not supposed to do much of it but I can't help myself.
So you thought he was that good without watching him? But yesterday you said he was trash coming out and the other day you said he was an UFA type….
Missing on him want the Giants' sin. Anyone can miss. The dishonest assessment of his rookie year - that was the sin.
Murray is flawed but better than Jones.
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Jones was the best QB in that draft.
Murray is flawed but better than Jones.
He's a crybaby munchkin who throws teammates under the bus and makes business decisions and needs to be babysat by his college coach.
Gun to my head, I might pick Jones. Although Murray is probably a better solution in a situation like he is in, an offense catered to his skillset. Definitely better than the Giants and disregarding Jones skillset and trying to plug him into a square hole.
Whatever side you fall on, the fact that Jones is still here has nothing to do with what Mara thinks than what the Giants options are. I don't think you'd get a 7th round pick for him at this point, not with coming back from a neck injury. If someone wants him, they'll take a flyer when he's cut next year. If you cut him now, we incur a dead-money hit, which we have enough of already. If he's not the best QB on the team (I think he is), he is at least the one with the most upside, which is sad but also true.
At best, he's third. Behind Murray and Minshew.
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Owner John Mara, who hates being portrayed as a meddler but not enough to stop
Nothing could possibly sum up John Mara better or more concisely than this.
It's perfect
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In comment 15659093 Spiciest Memelord said:
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Jones was the best QB in that draft.
Murray is flawed but better than Jones.
He's a crybaby munchkin who throws teammates under the bus and makes business decisions and needs to be babysat by his college coach.
Gun to my head, I might pick Jones. Although Murray is probably a better solution in a situation like he is in, an offense catered to his skillset. Definitely better than the Giants and disregarding Jones skillset and trying to plug him into a square hole.
Even accepting the flaws you pointed out, he's leaps and bounds better than Jones.
My disagreement with his detractors is the certainty with which opinions are presented as facts.
Fact - he has not played well.
Opinion,- he never will.
Presenting the latter as fact is what I rail against, but I never seem to win that debate with the dissenters
My disagreement with his detractors is the certainty with which opinions are presented as facts.
Fact - he has not played well.
Opinion,- he never will.
Presenting the latter as fact is what I rail against, but I never seem to win that debate with the dissenters
I wouldn't interpret it that way, actually.
His detractors, like me, look at three years of ineffective play and assume that the odds for another ineffective year are very high.
Could Jones pop? Absolutely. There is probably a 15-20% chance. But would you bet your mortage on it?
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I m neither convinced he is or is not the answer ,but am in the camp of being convinced going with him this season makes the most sense.
My disagreement with his detractors is the certainty with which opinions are presented as facts.
Fact - he has not played well.
Opinion,- he never will.
Presenting the latter as fact is what I rail against, but I never seem to win that debate with the dissenters
I wouldn't interpret it that way, actually.
His detractors, like me, look at three years of ineffective play and assume that the odds for another ineffective year are very high.
Could Jones pop? Absolutely. There is probably a 15-20% chance. But would you bet your mortage on it?
I'd agree, but some of the detractors here also want him gone now, and a new QB at any cost. I disagree with that, because its robbing peter to pay paul. The options the Giants have are limited, and Schoen is acting like it, appropriately.
My disagreement with his detractors is the certainty with which opinions are presented as facts.
Fact - he has not played well.
Opinion,- he never will.
Presenting the latter as fact is what I rail against, but I never seem to win that debate with the dissenters
This is where I stand.
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I m neither convinced he is or is not the answer ,but am in the camp of being convinced going with him this season makes the most sense.
My disagreement with his detractors is the certainty with which opinions are presented as facts.
Fact - he has not played well.
Opinion,- he never will.
Presenting the latter as fact is what I rail against, but I never seem to win that debate with the dissenters
I wouldn't interpret it that way, actually.
His detractors, like me, look at three years of ineffective play and assume that the odds for another ineffective year are very high.
Could Jones pop? Absolutely. There is probably a 15-20% chance. But would you bet your mortage on it?
Yea, my mortgage is very small at this stage of life. 🥴
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I m neither convinced he is or is not the answer ,but am in the camp of being convinced going with him this season makes the most sense.
My disagreement with his detractors is the certainty with which opinions are presented as facts.
Fact - he has not played well.
Opinion,- he never will.
Presenting the latter as fact is what I rail against, but I never seem to win that debate with the dissenters
I wouldn't interpret it that way, actually.
His detractors, like me, look at three years of ineffective play and assume that the odds for another ineffective year are very high.
Could Jones pop? Absolutely. There is probably a 15-20% chance. But would you bet your mortage on it?
Which is probably about the odds of any of the quarterbacks in the upcoming draft to succeed.
This is why many of us favor keeping Jones for this season. We pretty much get the same odds and we get a premium draft pick at a different position.
Opinion: my dog will never be a good quarterback in the NFL.
Your reasoning is summed up by Lisa Simpson:
Fact: ignoring existing evidence to chase a desired outcome when implementing policy is bad management.
Opinion: my dog will never be a good quarterback in the NFL.
Your reasoning is summed up by Lisa Simpson:
Fact: ignoring existing evidence to chase a desired outcome when implementing policy is bad management.
Thus you reinforce the last point of my post
Never saw this Simpson thing though, enjoyed it
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Fact: my dog has never shown she can be a good quarterback in the NFL.
Opinion: my dog will never be a good quarterback in the NFL.
Your reasoning is summed up by Lisa Simpson:
Fact: ignoring existing evidence to chase a desired outcome when implementing policy is bad management.
Thus you reinforce the last point of my post
Never saw this Simpson thing though, enjoyed it
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In comment 15659185 joeinpa said:
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I m neither convinced he is or is not the answer ,but am in the camp of being convinced going with him this season makes the most sense.
My disagreement with his detractors is the certainty with which opinions are presented as facts.
Fact - he has not played well.
Opinion,- he never will.
Presenting the latter as fact is what I rail against, but I never seem to win that debate with the dissenters
I wouldn't interpret it that way, actually.
His detractors, like me, look at three years of ineffective play and assume that the odds for another ineffective year are very high.
Could Jones pop? Absolutely. There is probably a 15-20% chance. But would you bet your mortage on it?
Which is probably about the odds of any of the quarterbacks in the upcoming draft to succeed.
This is why many of us favor keeping Jones for this season. We pretty much get the same odds and we get a premium draft pick at a different position.
No. You could not trade Jones and get a 1st or 2nd. Puckett will cost a 1st.
Pickett is more valuable than Jones. And more likely to succeed.
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In comment 15659185 joeinpa said:
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I m neither convinced he is or is not the answer ,but am in the camp of being convinced going with him this season makes the most sense.
My disagreement with his detractors is the certainty with which opinions are presented as facts.
Fact - he has not played well.
Opinion,- he never will.
Presenting the latter as fact is what I rail against, but I never seem to win that debate with the dissenters
I wouldn't interpret it that way, actually.
His detractors, like me, look at three years of ineffective play and assume that the odds for another ineffective year are very high.
Could Jones pop? Absolutely. There is probably a 15-20% chance. But would you bet your mortage on it?
Which is probably about the odds of any of the quarterbacks in the upcoming draft to succeed.
This is why many of us favor keeping Jones for this season. We pretty much get the same odds and we get a premium draft pick at a different position.
Precisely
You can apply the logic you're using on Jones to any depth chart QB in the NFL: "Just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not there."
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In comment 15659185 joeinpa said:
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I m neither convinced he is or is not the answer ,but am in the camp of being convinced going with him this season makes the most sense.
My disagreement with his detractors is the certainty with which opinions are presented as facts.
Fact - he has not played well.
Opinion,- he never will.
Presenting the latter as fact is what I rail against, but I never seem to win that debate with the dissenters
I wouldn't interpret it that way, actually.
His detractors, like me, look at three years of ineffective play and assume that the odds for another ineffective year are very high.
Could Jones pop? Absolutely. There is probably a 15-20% chance. But would you bet your mortage on it?
Which is probably about the odds of any of the quarterbacks in the upcoming draft to succeed.
This is why many of us favor keeping Jones for this season. We pretty much get the same odds and we get a premium draft pick at a different position.
The odds for Jones are far lower. He isn't a random dice throw.
Further, it doesn't have to be a premium pick. You could trade Jones for a 7th, use that 7th on Bailey Zappe, and you've gained cap space and three years of a rookie QB contract.
What have you lost?
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In comment 15659188 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15659185 joeinpa said:
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I m neither convinced he is or is not the answer ,but am in the camp of being convinced going with him this season makes the most sense.
My disagreement with his detractors is the certainty with which opinions are presented as facts.
Fact - he has not played well.
Opinion,- he never will.
Presenting the latter as fact is what I rail against, but I never seem to win that debate with the dissenters
I wouldn't interpret it that way, actually.
His detractors, like me, look at three years of ineffective play and assume that the odds for another ineffective year are very high.
Could Jones pop? Absolutely. There is probably a 15-20% chance. But would you bet your mortage on it?
Which is probably about the odds of any of the quarterbacks in the upcoming draft to succeed.
This is why many of us favor keeping Jones for this season. We pretty much get the same odds and we get a premium draft pick at a different position.
The odds for Jones are far lower. He isn't a random dice throw.
Further, it doesn't have to be a premium pick. You could trade Jones for a 7th, use that 7th on Bailey Zappe, and you've gained cap space and three years of a rookie QB contract.
What have you lost?
I disagree. Zappe is a lesser version of Lauletta or Fromm, both of whom are worse than Jones. His arm strength is nowhere near NFL caliber.
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In comment 15659188 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15659185 joeinpa said:
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I m neither convinced he is or is not the answer ,but am in the camp of being convinced going with him this season makes the most sense.
My disagreement with his detractors is the certainty with which opinions are presented as facts.
Fact - he has not played well.
Opinion,- he never will.
Presenting the latter as fact is what I rail against, but I never seem to win that debate with the dissenters
I wouldn't interpret it that way, actually.
His detractors, like me, look at three years of ineffective play and assume that the odds for another ineffective year are very high.
Could Jones pop? Absolutely. There is probably a 15-20% chance. But would you bet your mortage on it?
Which is probably about the odds of any of the quarterbacks in the upcoming draft to succeed.
This is why many of us favor keeping Jones for this season. We pretty much get the same odds and we get a premium draft pick at a different position.
The odds for Jones are far lower. He isn't a random dice throw.
Further, it doesn't have to be a premium pick. You could trade Jones for a 7th, use that 7th on Bailey Zappe, and you've gained cap space and three years of a rookie QB contract.
What have you lost?
You lost a good deep ball thrower and gained the worst
You gain cap space. You gain years. You lose a year of Daniel Jones.