Sounded like a great kid. Smart, measured answers - confident but not cocky. Easy to root for which has not always been the case with a lot of guys over the past few years.
our Dave Meggett, a guy who can get the ball in the backfield, get passes out of the backfield, out of the slot and probably can play some Special teams too.
I did not realize how many times he lined up at RB at Nebraska.
His stats would have been a lot better last year if he played with a better QB as there are a lot of under thrown and high throws costing him yards and probably a couple of TDs.
Was a 5th round pick. Robinson would have been a good 5th round pick as well.
Really, and you don't think knowing what Meggett was he wouldn't have been drafted much higher if the draft had been redone. Robinson was never going to reach round 5.
His toughness will make him a fan favorite in no time...
For this system. We are going to spread it out, use motion and put the ball into the hands of playmakers.
We are finally going to leave 1978 behind.
Wan'Dale did that shit in the SEC.
Notice how he finished his career?
Did you look?
If someone can screw Toney's head on straight, this might be the most fun offense in NFCE.
We are going to see more +20 yards plays in 2022 than we have ever had IMO. Might not be the best offense we have seeen, but it will be very explosive. Big chunks. Saquan was monster in 2018, if he is healthy, this should be a better offense for him. There is going to be a lot of space to work with.
Thanks for sharing. I'm pumped for this pick. Maybe not what I would have done but for chrissakes people let the new regime do their thing. The # of ppl who think they know better bc they read some amateur rankings on the internet is laughable.
I am not a fan of small wrs taken this high in the draft. But after stewing on it. IF he can stay healthy, he could be a good asset for this team.
Just reminded me when we drafted 5’8” 160# Stephan Baker. Reporter asked Simms if he had trouble finding him in the patterns. Simms’ response was No, he’s the one who’s open.
I figured it was. Don't understand the need for posters to do this childish, look-at-me crap. Why not just post a scouting report about a draft pick instead of starting a thread by being a prick to people with different opinions?
Was a 5th round pick. Robinson would have been a good 5th round pick as well.
And NFL teams so quickly saw how much impact he had that 2 years later, they were ready to make a similar player, Rocket Ismail, the #1 overall pick if he had not signed with the CFL. (To this day that was still weird.)
Is that while I don’t think he’s quite as shifty/explosive with the ball as Toney (very few have ever been), it seems like he gets better separation in route running. Definitely seems to be more refined than Toney was last year in terms of NFL style route running.
Don’t get me wrong, they’re definitely similar but that route running/separation could make him a little more consistent than Toney.
made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
The Pats did the same thing with Ty Thornton. Does that make BB a bonehead?
made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
If he pans out, people won't care anymore. Think anyone cares EA/Reese reached for Osi in the 2nd round anymore?
made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
How do you know he "easily" would have been there in round 3 or 4? Because the mock drafts you read on line said so? lol. What Schoen did was take the highest player on his draft board rather than getting too cute in his first draft by taking a player he had a lesser grade on and taking a chance his guy would not be there. He's made bone head move because he didn't follow your highly informed draft board, huh? Awesome...
made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
Reminds me of last season with Toney. People stopped caring about his draft slot when he had that big game.
No one cares. It's just something to yammer about.
made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
How do you know he "easily" would have been there in round 3 or 4? Because the mock drafts you read on line said so? lol. What Schoen did was take the highest player on his draft board rather than getting too cute in his first draft by taking a player he had a lesser grade on and taking a chance his guy would not be there. He's made bone head move because he didn't follow your highly informed draft board, huh? Awesome...
Exactly. I swear the draft gives me migraines these days.
so was DJ, Barkley, Ramsey Barden, Apple, Flowers on and on. Same shit different GM. I love round one but after that Joe shat the bed with a least 3 major reaches. This is how you end up with shitty rosters.
made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
Why do you believe the Giants are the only team that had him rated in the 2nd round? If he was the player who was the best scheme fit and they were concerned at least one other team had a 2nd/3rd round grade on him, do you risk losing him?
He was picked ahead of where most mocks had him going. There is no guarantee the Giants were an outlier on him. Most of the mocks were wrong on the QBs by multiple rounds.
so was DJ, Barkley, Ramsey Barden, Apple, Flowers on and on. Same shit different GM. I love round one but after that Joe shat the bed with a least 3 major reaches. This is how you end up with shitty rosters.
You end up with shitty rosters when you draft shitty players, not when you draft good players too early. All that matters is if these guys are any good.
so was DJ, Barkley, Ramsey Barden, Apple, Flowers on and on. Same shit different GM. I love round one but after that Joe shat the bed with a least 3 major reaches. This is how you end up with shitty rosters.
This is just a list of people who didn't work out. Some were reaches, some were just bad picks, there's a difference. And it illustrates that if Robinson works out, you don't give a shit what pick we spent on him.
made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
Truly one of the dumbest things I have read on this board, and I been around for a decade.
made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
This is such a weird way to look at things. Imagine if a team took Brady in the 2nd round, would people be bitching that he went to high 20 years later?
It doesn't matter if you reach on someone if they turn out to be good, it only matters when they don't. We'll have to wait to see which this one turns out to be.
The Pats did the same thing with Ty Thornton. Does that make BB a bonehead?
I mean c'mon this isn't the same thing. The Pats have shown time and time again that they have different standards of value than the rest of the NFL.
If anything the Giants have counter examples. That they go against the grain and it blows up in their faces. And a lot of those same scouts are the people who had their player analysis miss so spectacularly.
I'm willing to say it's possible that we've turned over a new leaf on that. But is that at all probable given how little time Schoen has had to reshape things and how much he's relying on existing scouting?
The logical data set we have to draw from is when the Giants do these reaches they know less and not more. They have in no way shape or form earned the right to be put on the same level as BB's picks.
so was DJ, Barkley, Ramsey Barden, Apple, Flowers on and on. Same shit different GM. I love round one but after that Joe shat the bed with a least 3 major reaches. This is how you end up with shitty rosters.
You end up with shitty rosters when you draft shitty players, not when you draft good players too early. All that matters is if these guys are any good.
Was a 5th round pick. Robinson would have been a good 5th round pick as well.
Just bc we could get Meggett in the 5th doesn't mean we could've gotten Robinson there. If Tyreek Hill the 2nd was in this draft, do you really think he would've lasted into the 5th rd? 2016 might not seem like a long time ago, but things have changed since then.
Joe got 2 extra picks and STILL got a versatile weapon
That the coach obviously wanted. Like badly wanted, and planned to use per conversations had before the draft during meetings.
We hired this staff for a reason. It’s refreshing to see a GM and coach actually get on the same page and also secure more picks for other needs.
The armchair GMs with their draft reports compiled by ‘experts’ who have no idea how the giants want to build their team, how they’ve evaluate players and holes to fill, and basically want to jaw all day and night about perceived value of a pick with no basis in actual reality can stfu already.
made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
This is such a weird way to look at things. Imagine if a team took Brady in the 2nd round, would people be bitching that he went to high 20 years later?
It doesn't matter if you reach on someone if they turn out to be good, it only matters when they don't. We'll have to wait to see which this one turns out to be.
Can you imagine following a player over his career that turns into a good player only to qualify his success with he was drafted to high??? This logic is totally bonkers
they say that he will be a good fit for a team like KC, and Shoen said that Kafka (and Daboll) made it clear that this was a player they can do something with.
I'm optimistic
Why do I somehow feel like both sides are wrong in this debate
A) You can overdraft a player. It's a waste of resources. Yes, you're obviously right that if you take Brady in the 4th round instead of 6th, nobody is going to complain at the end of his career. HOWEVER, if your goal is to maximize your roster, you want to take the right players AT THE RIGHT TIME. Picking Brady is never going to look bad. But would you rather have Brady and a 4th rounder or Brady and a 6th rounder? That's the point people are making in complaining about the Robinson pick. Schoen may turn out to be right about the talent. If he is, we probably don't care TOO much. But if he could have had Robinson + another 2nd round talent, that means (assuming for a moment that it was a reach), he squandered resources unnecessarily to get him.
B) That said, tired of hearing people state as if it is some confirmed fact that this was a reach. On the Athletic's consensus big board, he was 91 on their board. He went 43. So on that basis, a reach of about one round. The problem is, that's just one measure. A measure that historically...is about 80% accurate. Factor that in + the fact that 5 WRs came off the board before our next pick and its not crazy at all to think that another team or two may have considered grabbing at some point in the 2nd round had we gone elsewhere. If they saw him as a unique talent/scheme fit, I really don't understand the consternation. Even if you want to say it was a bit of a reach, it doesn't seem that extreme to me. And I don't know how anyone can say for sure where the other teams had him (as noted above, this year more than probably any other, we actually had some insight on that issue...so I tend to think they maybe knew there was interest from some others).
let's not kid ourselves, is Toney a #1 NFL WR? Absolutely not, it's hard to believe we picked him in round one with the 20th pick and I'm flabbergasted that a lot of you think he was a solid pick. Toney is a great athlete and a interesting player if you picked him in the 4th round. To me this 2nd round pick was KT 2.0, there has to be more important needs than punt return and jet sweep in the second round. Another thing, it's OK to second guess your teams personnel decisions, that's not being a bad fan, it's being a intelligent fan. Don't get me wrong I'm 100% praying that my concerns are unwarranted but sorry guys, I'm very concerned that we didn't get the right guys to run this team. What I saw in the rounds after round 1 are very alarming in my opinion.
let's not kid ourselves, is Toney a #1 NFL WR? Absolutely not, it's hard to believe we picked him in round one with the 20th pick and I'm flabbergasted that a lot of you think he was a solid pick. Toney is a great athlete and a interesting player if you picked him in the 4th round. To me this 2nd round pick was KT 2.0, there has to be more important needs than punt return and jet sweep in the second round. Another thing, it's OK to second guess your teams personnel decisions, that's not being a bad fan, it's being a intelligent fan. Don't get me wrong I'm 100% praying that my concerns are unwarranted but sorry guys, I'm very concerned that we didn't get the right guys to run this team. What I saw in the rounds after round 1 are very alarming in my opinion.
Toney showed enough on the field to demonstrate that his upside is first round worthy. The issue with him is that I have dwindling confidence that he'll ever realize that potential/we'll see him on the field consistently.
If Robinson is Toney but with his head screwed on straight, I'm not sure how anyone could be anything less than ecstatic at that prospect.
You really think Toney was a good pick? He's talented but he's 175lbs with emotional problems. Last year he played well in 2 games the rest of the season he was either hurt or not productive. Part of the draft process is drafting players with the physical attributes that would tend to promote a long healthy career, not may guys that small make it because they get hurt.
Another thing, it's OK to second guess your teams personnel decisions, that's not being a bad fan, it's being a intelligent fan.
With stuff like this, the question is always: "Ok, what info are you bringing to the table? Where's your info coming from?" It's not because *you* evaluated players. It's because someone else told you what to think, which is not a small point to make. That's really the objection, people getting THIS mad, but not armed with any information.
"I'm not sure about this" and "this is stupid, he would obviously have been available in rounds 3-4" are two very different statements. One is justifiable and one isn't.
i liked dotson a lot and i'd still take him over robinson, but obviously that wasn't an option since he went in the first round. I like Dotson's hands/catch radius and the fact that he's not as undersized. but in fairness to robinson, his 100 catches in the SEC are pretty compelling too.
I wanted Metchie who went 1 pick later. Looking at them now more familiar with Robinson it's a tough call. Both caught 100 balls in the SEC. Metchie safer but less explosive. I think consensus was just behind on robinson, and the value of WRs in general since so many went high.
You really think Toney was a good pick? He's talented but he's 175lbs with emotional problems. Last year he played well in 2 games the rest of the season he was either hurt or not productive. Part of the draft process is drafting players with the physical attributes that would tend to promote a long healthy career, not may guys that small make it because they get hurt.
That is not at ALL what I said. What I said was that his on field performance showed you what his high end could be....and that high end is first round worthy. However, I'm skeptical that he'll ever realize that potential because he just doesn't seem to be a guy that is committed to being great. So in the end, that will make it a bad pick. My point was that it just isn't for the reasons you stated (i.e., you focused on the physical tools and suggested a guy with that skillset simply isn't worth the first round).
In the same way, if Robinson's upside/potential skill set is similar, but he DOES commit himself to his craft and reaches that potential....I think he could prove himself well worth the pick.
understood, agreed. Physical attributes I was referring to his small frame and concerns of it handling the grind of the NFL. I believe the smaller guys should be taken later rounds for that very reason.
understood, agreed. Physical attributes I was referring to his small frame and concerns of it handling the grind of the NFL. I believe the smaller guys should be taken later rounds for that very reason.
I think there are plenty of smaller guys who have been fine. I'm not a big fan of ignoring players/production because of traits. It's a piece, but in the end, you have to evaluate the player. My issue with Toney (and I've seen hints that it seems some within the Giants org agree) is that I = question whether Toney's issues were really inability to hold up, or just lack of desire to get back out on the field.
The Pats did the same thing with Ty Thornton. Does that make BB a bonehead?
I mean c'mon this isn't the same thing. The Pats have shown time and time again that they have different standards of value than the rest of the NFL.
If anything the Giants have counter examples. That they go against the grain and it blows up in their faces. And a lot of those same scouts are the people who had their player analysis miss so spectacularly.
I'm willing to say it's possible that we've turned over a new leaf on that. But is that at all probable given how little time Schoen has had to reshape things and how much he's relying on existing scouting?
The logical data set we have to draw from is when the Giants do these reaches they know less and not more. They have in no way shape or form earned the right to be put on the same level as BB's picks.
Thornton was predicted as a rd3-5 pick as well, so it's the exact same thing other than who made the pick. Let's not pretend like JS was just thrown into this draft with no prior knowledge of any of the players and had to only rely on the scouting he inherited. He had his own information from his time in BUF, combined with his own assessments after becoming GM.
Will it work out? IDK I don't have a crystal ball, but what encourages me is that JS, BD, Kafka, and Wink built a plan and then went into the draft and executed it.
is BB and the Patriots pretty much the only team to break through the parity of the modern NFL and win consistently.
There is a lot of room between thinking JS is some amateur and assuming he should get anywhere close to the same benefit of the doubt as BB. Especially when considering the fact that no matter how much you love JS the amount of dead weight he is carrying in the Giants org is up for serious debate if it is at all him carrying the dead weight vs. lobbying. We can’t forget that the Giants are one of the only teams on the other side of that, losing consistency against the parity.
I don’t really have any issues with Robinson. My issue is the assumption that the just because JS and BD are competent hires it means that no one should question them. There are plenty of valid reasons to and I take issue with the number of people that are talking down to people with logical reservations. Fact is the Giants have reached a lot in recent years and we’ve heard the same song and dance about how they are the professionals and what can anyone else know better than them. BB is beyond reproach. The Giants? Hell no
this pick is not view him as a WR but as a weapon.
He is a WR he caught 104 passes last year
Nochance… I guess caught passes only count if you’re 6 foot +.. I wouldn’t care if the WR is 3ft 6. If he catches and advances the chains then he’s a giant among us.
ruining every thread with reach proclamations with nothing to support it other than pointing to mocks, and sometimes, nothing at all. If there’s data out there that suggests this was a bad pick, I’ll listen. But the trolls don’t do that, their job is to ruin every thread.
I don’t love or hate the pick, I’m simply excited for the potential.
and Toney in the backfield at the same time and see what happens.
How about splitting Toney wide and put WD43 in the slot. WD slants over the middle after the catch have Toney trail the play..that waould be fun to watch if WD pitched it back..😂
with such confidence but nobody here knows if any of these picks were reaches or not. Just because CBS, The Athletic, ESPN, etc. have players rated a certain way doesn't mean the actual draft boards are in any way similar. Just look at how wrong every analyst got Nkobe Dean - the NFL valued him as a 3rd rounder when every pundit had a 1st (and a few had a 2nd) round grade on him.
We don't know if Wan'Dale would have made it to the 3rd round, but clearly the Giants didn't otherwise they would have picked him there. These NFL teams spend 1,000x more human hours on this process than the media does; I'm willing to wait until we see how things shake out before definitively claiming anyone is a "reach" or a shitty value pick; you and I know basically nothing of how other teams graded these players.
people are saying it’s a reach and not the best value. That’s all and it’s reasonable. The issue is the same BS appeals to authority of well the Giants did it so it must be right because they are the “pros” when that has proven to be a bad take more than any take
He said Buffalo and KC value separation and YAC and thus have smaller receivers. Thats what Robinson brings to the Giants and why Daboll and Kafka wanted him - he fits what they want to do. Spread out the defense with Toney, Robinson, Barkley, get it in their hands and let them make defenders miss
but I can see the argument that he was over-drafted. Especially because of his size. That's just a personal preference. I don't have the data, but small frames tend to have more health challenges and have a shorter shelf life.
And you certainly get the sense he's got to get a lot of touches where he's going to take a lot of hits by faster, bigger professional players.
On the other hand, you can say that's fine because WRs are just more dispensable, because the supply is always good, and you can reload quickly.
in the sense of some kind of attempt to arrive at a consensus.
Was everyone picked exactly where they should be because some NFL front office liked them? Are NFL front offices infallible? Very much no to both.
I’ve shared an article showing that Kiper was actually better than the average GM 2 out of 3 years from 2018 to 2020. The idea that these front offices should be put on some kind of pedestal is the only crazy assertion. Considering how bad our own one has been the idea that they deserve that is the only thing more insane than that.
people are saying it’s a reach and not the best value. That’s all and it’s reasonable. The issue is the same BS appeals to authority of well the Giants did it so it must be right because they are the “pros” when that has proven to be a bad take more than any take
That isn’t how it’s being presented at all, you aren’t accurately representing some of the hot takes around here.
If someone thinks it’s a reach, great. But it’s entirely subjective and if they won’t admit that, then there isn’t much to talk about.
you’d have to show me people saying that. If there are any it’s a small number that is probably fringe enough they should just be ignored instead of talked to
people are saying it’s a reach and not the best value. That’s all and it’s reasonable. The issue is the same BS appeals to authority of well the Giants did it so it must be right because they are the “pros” when that has proven to be a bad take more than any take
On the flip side of that, you’re such a huge fan of analytics, you should be Robinson biggest cheerleader. Analytics suggest this is a home run pick. But alas, the Giants took him so you’re going to take the opposite view…
I loved day 1. I’ve been very complimentary of their FA discipline.
I spent many years as a highly supportive Giants fan on this board.
I am a data person and I can be easily swayed one way or the other. Robinson is a great player. He didn’t present value in my estimation in the 2nd round. I’m not the only one who thought that.
If he was the only reach I’d have nothing bad at all to say about the draft. He wasn’t the only reach. Day two was not a good day and had 3 reaches. Not an efficient use of resources and for that I will never be good with. I’m more impartial than you think. The Giants just suck and have sucked for a while. The second there is evidence they’ve fixed their major management problems at the top in a real and lasting way I’ll happily hop over to optimist land. It’s my preference to live there. Because I’m such an optimist it takes a lot of data to turn me and just as much to turn me back.
Sorry buddy you’ve got the wrong guy if you think I want to criticize. I don’t but I find it highly necessary here with all the rubber stamping of shitty leadership many want to do around here validating the Mara’s preferred delusion that they aren’t incompetent.
made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
I'm not worried about where he was taken. Schoen, Daboll, and Kafka seem to like what he'll add to the offense they're building. That's good enough for me.
Nothing wrong with throwing out your own opinion that a guy
was a reach. Why folks on here get so bent out of shape is silly. Are we trying to surpress football opinions and debate for some reason on a fan board?
I like Robinson and watched him play in a handful of SEC games. He has a lot of game and gave some good defenses fits last season. But I don't have any trouble with someone intimating that he went somewhat early and/or probably isn't the 43rd best player in this draft.
I called a guy named Evan Engram a reach a few years back and the outcry was ridiculous. You would have thought he was actually related to 50% of the posters on this board based on the reaction. Although now, his close relatives don't seem to post about him any longer...
made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
And where did they have dean projected? You can talk all about which publications had players listed where or who had him where, but they aren't nfl teams and they aren't coaches. If Robinson scores TD's and becomes the weapon the giants hope he is going to be, then he is absolutely worth a 2nd round pick. It is clearly obvious that Joe schoen and daboll thought a lot more of him and what he can bring to take him in the 2nd round. If they didn't, they would have waited to get him in those later rounds.
We will find out who was right, the guys projecting or Joe schoen. I'm betting daboll knows how he can be utilized best and get the most out of him
people are saying it’s a reach and not the best value. That’s all and it’s reasonable. The issue is the same BS appeals to authority of well the Giants did it so it must be right because they are the “pros” when that has proven to be a bad take more than any take
On the flip side of that, you’re such a huge fan of analytics, you should be Robinson biggest cheerleader. Analytics suggest this is a home run pick. But alas, the Giants took him so you’re going to take the opposite view…
I believe in analytics, but the output is only as good as the data you put in. 99% of the data says Robinson should be a stud, and he appears to have the football character to at least get close to whatever his ceiling is if he stays healthy, but the 1% not included could derail his entire career. The only player comp with an arm length close to Robinson is Rondale Moore and even then Moore’s are longer although height difference evens it out. Moore has played 1 year and nobody knows if that will be his best year or his worst. Moore also verticaled 20-25% higher than Robinson. Every other name I have seen is both taller than Robinson and has arms at least 9-10% longer than Robinson. Catch radius matters when you are going against DB’s like Pete Carroll uses in Seattle.
let's not kid ourselves, is Toney a #1 NFL WR? Absolutely not, it's hard to believe we picked him in round one with the 20th pick and I'm flabbergasted that a lot of you think he was a solid pick. Toney is a great athlete and a interesting player if you picked him in the 4th round. To me this 2nd round pick was KT 2.0, there has to be more important needs than punt return and jet sweep in the second round. Another thing, it's OK to second guess your teams personnel decisions, that's not being a bad fan, it's being a intelligent fan. Don't get me wrong I'm 100% praying that my concerns are unwarranted but sorry guys, I'm very concerned that we didn't get the right guys to run this team. What I saw in the rounds after round 1 are very alarming in my opinion.
I’m in your side about Schoen’s day 2 and the Toney pick. But I thought Schoen had a strong day 1 and 3, with intelligent decisions throughout. I also like the contract decisions outside of the draft.
Schoen is promising but made mistakes in the 2nd and 3rd rounds that he needs to learn from.
people are saying it’s a reach and not the best value. That’s all and it’s reasonable. The issue is the same BS appeals to authority of well the Giants did it so it must be right because they are the “pros” when that has proven to be a bad take more than any take
On the flip side of that, you’re such a huge fan of analytics, you should be Robinson biggest cheerleader. Analytics suggest this is a home run pick. But alas, the Giants took him so you’re going to take the opposite view…
I believe in analytics, but the output is only as good as the data you put in. 99% of the data says Robinson should be a stud, and he appears to have the football character to at least get close to whatever his ceiling is if he stays healthy, but the 1% not included could derail his entire career. The only player comp with an arm length close to Robinson is Rondale Moore and even then Moore’s are longer although height difference evens it out. Moore has played 1 year and nobody knows if that will be his best year or his worst. Moore also verticaled 20-25% higher than Robinson. Every other name I have seen is both taller than Robinson and has arms at least 9-10% longer than Robinson. Catch radius matters when you are going against DB’s like Pete Carroll uses in Seattle.
Santana Moss had short arms and in terms of look that's who wan'dale reminds me of most. Moss used to similarly be able to go up for the ball and control his body and make possession receiver plays while looking like a smurf, even towards the end when lost a half step. Rondale has the same size arms and went at almost the same spot last year. I was a lot more worried about him as a prospect than Robinson since everyone was trusting tape from 3 years earlier and he ended up having a better first year than i would have expected.
i think there were some rankers that had rondale as a 1st rounder too.
sometimes there are simple explanations and i think the simplest explanation with robinson's consensus rank is that prior to his breakout at UK he wasn't really on very many radars, and there arent that many people paying a ton of attention to UK football (myself included). if he did what he did for Bama or UGA instead of UK he'd be perceived very differently.
The disconnect is that we perceive draft value based on the best educated guesses of people who aren't working for an NFL team. When a team, or teams, assign value differently we call it a reach (or steal) but their assessment is the one that actually matters, not ESPN/CBS/etc.
I did not realize how many times he lined up at RB at Nebraska.
His stats would have been a lot better last year if he played with a better QB as there are a lot of under thrown and high throws costing him yards and probably a couple of TDs.
Good luck safeties and linebackers.
Really, and you don't think knowing what Meggett was he wouldn't have been drafted much higher if the draft had been redone. Robinson was never going to reach round 5.
Right because wrs this size never play well in the nfl.
Except, they have and are playing well. But you know more.
We are finally going to leave 1978 behind.
Wan'Dale did that shit in the SEC.
Notice how he finished his career?
Did you look?
If someone can screw Toney's head on straight, this might be the most fun offense in NFCE.
We are going to see more +20 yards plays in 2022 than we have ever had IMO. Might not be the best offense we have seeen, but it will be very explosive. Big chunks. Saquan was monster in 2018, if he is healthy, this should be a better offense for him. There is going to be a lot of space to work with.
Glad the new mgmt has a plan.
Just reminded me when we drafted 5’8” 160# Stephan Baker. Reporter asked Simms if he had trouble finding him in the patterns. Simms’ response was No, he’s the one who’s open.
I figured it was. Don't understand the need for posters to do this childish, look-at-me crap. Why not just post a scouting report about a draft pick instead of starting a thread by being a prick to people with different opinions?
Good luck safeties and linebackers.
too bad Jones is a one read QB entering his 4th season...
1,000 times this
And NFL teams so quickly saw how much impact he had that 2 years later, they were ready to make a similar player, Rocket Ismail, the #1 overall pick if he had not signed with the CFL. (To this day that was still weird.)
Don’t get me wrong, they’re definitely similar but that route running/separation could make him a little more consistent than Toney.
The Pats did the same thing with Ty Thornton. Does that make BB a bonehead?
If he pans out, people won't care anymore. Think anyone cares EA/Reese reached for Osi in the 2nd round anymore?
How do you know he "easily" would have been there in round 3 or 4? Because the mock drafts you read on line said so? lol. What Schoen did was take the highest player on his draft board rather than getting too cute in his first draft by taking a player he had a lesser grade on and taking a chance his guy would not be there. He's made bone head move because he didn't follow your highly informed draft board, huh? Awesome...
Reminds me of last season with Toney. People stopped caring about his draft slot when he had that big game.
No one cares. It's just something to yammer about.
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made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
How do you know he "easily" would have been there in round 3 or 4? Because the mock drafts you read on line said so? lol. What Schoen did was take the highest player on his draft board rather than getting too cute in his first draft by taking a player he had a lesser grade on and taking a chance his guy would not be there. He's made bone head move because he didn't follow your highly informed draft board, huh? Awesome...
Exactly. I swear the draft gives me migraines these days.
Why do you believe the Giants are the only team that had him rated in the 2nd round? If he was the player who was the best scheme fit and they were concerned at least one other team had a 2nd/3rd round grade on him, do you risk losing him?
He was picked ahead of where most mocks had him going. There is no guarantee the Giants were an outlier on him. Most of the mocks were wrong on the QBs by multiple rounds.
Being snarky :)
You end up with shitty rosters when you draft shitty players, not when you draft good players too early. All that matters is if these guys are any good.
This is just a list of people who didn't work out. Some were reaches, some were just bad picks, there's a difference. And it illustrates that if Robinson works out, you don't give a shit what pick we spent on him.
Truly one of the dumbest things I have read on this board, and I been around for a decade.
He is a WR he caught 104 passes last year
This is such a weird way to look at things. Imagine if a team took Brady in the 2nd round, would people be bitching that he went to high 20 years later?
It doesn't matter if you reach on someone if they turn out to be good, it only matters when they don't. We'll have to wait to see which this one turns out to be.
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The Pats did the same thing with Ty Thornton. Does that make BB a bonehead?
I mean c'mon this isn't the same thing. The Pats have shown time and time again that they have different standards of value than the rest of the NFL.
If anything the Giants have counter examples. That they go against the grain and it blows up in their faces. And a lot of those same scouts are the people who had their player analysis miss so spectacularly.
I'm willing to say it's possible that we've turned over a new leaf on that. But is that at all probable given how little time Schoen has had to reshape things and how much he's relying on existing scouting?
The logical data set we have to draw from is when the Giants do these reaches they know less and not more. They have in no way shape or form earned the right to be put on the same level as BB's picks.
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so was DJ, Barkley, Ramsey Barden, Apple, Flowers on and on. Same shit different GM. I love round one but after that Joe shat the bed with a least 3 major reaches. This is how you end up with shitty rosters.
You end up with shitty rosters when you draft shitty players, not when you draft good players too early. All that matters is if these guys are any good.
Just bc we could get Meggett in the 5th doesn't mean we could've gotten Robinson there. If Tyreek Hill the 2nd was in this draft, do you really think he would've lasted into the 5th rd? 2016 might not seem like a long time ago, but things have changed since then.
We hired this staff for a reason. It’s refreshing to see a GM and coach actually get on the same page and also secure more picks for other needs.
The armchair GMs with their draft reports compiled by ‘experts’ who have no idea how the giants want to build their team, how they’ve evaluate players and holes to fill, and basically want to jaw all day and night about perceived value of a pick with no basis in actual reality can stfu already.
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made the terrible mistake of taking guys with a 2nd round pick that could easily been taken in the 3rd or 4th. This is a bone head move that is very concerning. Even if this kid plays well it's doesn't wipe away the fact that nobody had this guy projected to go in round 2, as a matter of fact he was a 4-5 rounder on most projections.
This is such a weird way to look at things. Imagine if a team took Brady in the 2nd round, would people be bitching that he went to high 20 years later?
It doesn't matter if you reach on someone if they turn out to be good, it only matters when they don't. We'll have to wait to see which this one turns out to be.
Can you imagine following a player over his career that turns into a good player only to qualify his success with he was drafted to high??? This logic is totally bonkers
Good luck safeties and linebackers.
A fellow can dream and I can't wait to see the new Offense.
I'm optimistic
B) That said, tired of hearing people state as if it is some confirmed fact that this was a reach. On the Athletic's consensus big board, he was 91 on their board. He went 43. So on that basis, a reach of about one round. The problem is, that's just one measure. A measure that historically...is about 80% accurate. Factor that in + the fact that 5 WRs came off the board before our next pick and its not crazy at all to think that another team or two may have considered grabbing at some point in the 2nd round had we gone elsewhere. If they saw him as a unique talent/scheme fit, I really don't understand the consternation. Even if you want to say it was a bit of a reach, it doesn't seem that extreme to me. And I don't know how anyone can say for sure where the other teams had him (as noted above, this year more than probably any other, we actually had some insight on that issue...so I tend to think they maybe knew there was interest from some others).
Toney showed enough on the field to demonstrate that his upside is first round worthy. The issue with him is that I have dwindling confidence that he'll ever realize that potential/we'll see him on the field consistently.
If Robinson is Toney but with his head screwed on straight, I'm not sure how anyone could be anything less than ecstatic at that prospect.
Why? If he has the same career as Meggett that's easily worth a round 2 pick.
With stuff like this, the question is always: "Ok, what info are you bringing to the table? Where's your info coming from?" It's not because *you* evaluated players. It's because someone else told you what to think, which is not a small point to make. That's really the objection, people getting THIS mad, but not armed with any information.
"I'm not sure about this" and "this is stupid, he would obviously have been available in rounds 3-4" are two very different statements. One is justifiable and one isn't.
I wanted Metchie who went 1 pick later. Looking at them now more familiar with Robinson it's a tough call. Both caught 100 balls in the SEC. Metchie safer but less explosive. I think consensus was just behind on robinson, and the value of WRs in general since so many went high.
That is not at ALL what I said. What I said was that his on field performance showed you what his high end could be....and that high end is first round worthy. However, I'm skeptical that he'll ever realize that potential because he just doesn't seem to be a guy that is committed to being great. So in the end, that will make it a bad pick. My point was that it just isn't for the reasons you stated (i.e., you focused on the physical tools and suggested a guy with that skillset simply isn't worth the first round).
In the same way, if Robinson's upside/potential skill set is similar, but he DOES commit himself to his craft and reaches that potential....I think he could prove himself well worth the pick.
I think there are plenty of smaller guys who have been fine. I'm not a big fan of ignoring players/production because of traits. It's a piece, but in the end, you have to evaluate the player. My issue with Toney (and I've seen hints that it seems some within the Giants org agree) is that I = question whether Toney's issues were really inability to hold up, or just lack of desire to get back out on the field.
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In comment 15695517 JerrysKids said:
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The Pats did the same thing with Ty Thornton. Does that make BB a bonehead?
I mean c'mon this isn't the same thing. The Pats have shown time and time again that they have different standards of value than the rest of the NFL.
If anything the Giants have counter examples. That they go against the grain and it blows up in their faces. And a lot of those same scouts are the people who had their player analysis miss so spectacularly.
I'm willing to say it's possible that we've turned over a new leaf on that. But is that at all probable given how little time Schoen has had to reshape things and how much he's relying on existing scouting?
The logical data set we have to draw from is when the Giants do these reaches they know less and not more. They have in no way shape or form earned the right to be put on the same level as BB's picks.
Thornton was predicted as a rd3-5 pick as well, so it's the exact same thing other than who made the pick. Let's not pretend like JS was just thrown into this draft with no prior knowledge of any of the players and had to only rely on the scouting he inherited. He had his own information from his time in BUF, combined with his own assessments after becoming GM.
Will it work out? IDK I don't have a crystal ball, but what encourages me is that JS, BD, Kafka, and Wink built a plan and then went into the draft and executed it.
Schoen and Daboll do not jump the gun but instead wait and gamble on Robinson being there a little later in the draft.
There is a lot of room between thinking JS is some amateur and assuming he should get anywhere close to the same benefit of the doubt as BB. Especially when considering the fact that no matter how much you love JS the amount of dead weight he is carrying in the Giants org is up for serious debate if it is at all him carrying the dead weight vs. lobbying. We can’t forget that the Giants are one of the only teams on the other side of that, losing consistency against the parity.
I don’t really have any issues with Robinson. My issue is the assumption that the just because JS and BD are competent hires it means that no one should question them. There are plenty of valid reasons to and I take issue with the number of people that are talking down to people with logical reservations. Fact is the Giants have reached a lot in recent years and we’ve heard the same song and dance about how they are the professionals and what can anyone else know better than them. BB is beyond reproach. The Giants? Hell no
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this pick is not view him as a WR but as a weapon.
He is a WR he caught 104 passes last year
Nochance… I guess caught passes only count if you’re 6 foot +.. I wouldn’t care if the WR is 3ft 6. If he catches and advances the chains then he’s a giant among us.
I don’t love or hate the pick, I’m simply excited for the potential.
How about splitting Toney wide and put WD43 in the slot. WD slants over the middle after the catch have Toney trail the play..that waould be fun to watch if WD pitched it back..😂
We don't know if Wan'Dale would have made it to the 3rd round, but clearly the Giants didn't otherwise they would have picked him there. These NFL teams spend 1,000x more human hours on this process than the media does; I'm willing to wait until we see how things shake out before definitively claiming anyone is a "reach" or a shitty value pick; you and I know basically nothing of how other teams graded these players.
And you certainly get the sense he's got to get a lot of touches where he's going to take a lot of hits by faster, bigger professional players.
On the other hand, you can say that's fine because WRs are just more dispensable, because the supply is always good, and you can reload quickly.
Was everyone picked exactly where they should be because some NFL front office liked them? Are NFL front offices infallible? Very much no to both.
I’ve shared an article showing that Kiper was actually better than the average GM 2 out of 3 years from 2018 to 2020. The idea that these front offices should be put on some kind of pedestal is the only crazy assertion. Considering how bad our own one has been the idea that they deserve that is the only thing more insane than that.
That isn’t how it’s being presented at all, you aren’t accurately representing some of the hot takes around here.
If someone thinks it’s a reach, great. But it’s entirely subjective and if they won’t admit that, then there isn’t much to talk about.
On the flip side of that, you’re such a huge fan of analytics, you should be Robinson biggest cheerleader. Analytics suggest this is a home run pick. But alas, the Giants took him so you’re going to take the opposite view…
I spent many years as a highly supportive Giants fan on this board.
I am a data person and I can be easily swayed one way or the other. Robinson is a great player. He didn’t present value in my estimation in the 2nd round. I’m not the only one who thought that.
If he was the only reach I’d have nothing bad at all to say about the draft. He wasn’t the only reach. Day two was not a good day and had 3 reaches. Not an efficient use of resources and for that I will never be good with. I’m more impartial than you think. The Giants just suck and have sucked for a while. The second there is evidence they’ve fixed their major management problems at the top in a real and lasting way I’ll happily hop over to optimist land. It’s my preference to live there. Because I’m such an optimist it takes a lot of data to turn me and just as much to turn me back.
Sorry buddy you’ve got the wrong guy if you think I want to criticize. I don’t but I find it highly necessary here with all the rubber stamping of shitty leadership many want to do around here validating the Mara’s preferred delusion that they aren’t incompetent.
I'm not worried about where he was taken. Schoen, Daboll, and Kafka seem to like what he'll add to the offense they're building. That's good enough for me.
I like Robinson and watched him play in a handful of SEC games. He has a lot of game and gave some good defenses fits last season. But I don't have any trouble with someone intimating that he went somewhat early and/or probably isn't the 43rd best player in this draft.
I called a guy named Evan Engram a reach a few years back and the outcry was ridiculous. You would have thought he was actually related to 50% of the posters on this board based on the reaction. Although now, his close relatives don't seem to post about him any longer...
And where did they have dean projected? You can talk all about which publications had players listed where or who had him where, but they aren't nfl teams and they aren't coaches. If Robinson scores TD's and becomes the weapon the giants hope he is going to be, then he is absolutely worth a 2nd round pick. It is clearly obvious that Joe schoen and daboll thought a lot more of him and what he can bring to take him in the 2nd round. If they didn't, they would have waited to get him in those later rounds.
We will find out who was right, the guys projecting or Joe schoen. I'm betting daboll knows how he can be utilized best and get the most out of him
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people are saying it’s a reach and not the best value. That’s all and it’s reasonable. The issue is the same BS appeals to authority of well the Giants did it so it must be right because they are the “pros” when that has proven to be a bad take more than any take
On the flip side of that, you’re such a huge fan of analytics, you should be Robinson biggest cheerleader. Analytics suggest this is a home run pick. But alas, the Giants took him so you’re going to take the opposite view…
I believe in analytics, but the output is only as good as the data you put in. 99% of the data says Robinson should be a stud, and he appears to have the football character to at least get close to whatever his ceiling is if he stays healthy, but the 1% not included could derail his entire career. The only player comp with an arm length close to Robinson is Rondale Moore and even then Moore’s are longer although height difference evens it out. Moore has played 1 year and nobody knows if that will be his best year or his worst. Moore also verticaled 20-25% higher than Robinson. Every other name I have seen is both taller than Robinson and has arms at least 9-10% longer than Robinson. Catch radius matters when you are going against DB’s like Pete Carroll uses in Seattle.
I’m in your side about Schoen’s day 2 and the Toney pick. But I thought Schoen had a strong day 1 and 3, with intelligent decisions throughout. I also like the contract decisions outside of the draft.
Schoen is promising but made mistakes in the 2nd and 3rd rounds that he needs to learn from.
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In comment 15696016 NoGainDayne said:
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people are saying it’s a reach and not the best value. That’s all and it’s reasonable. The issue is the same BS appeals to authority of well the Giants did it so it must be right because they are the “pros” when that has proven to be a bad take more than any take
On the flip side of that, you’re such a huge fan of analytics, you should be Robinson biggest cheerleader. Analytics suggest this is a home run pick. But alas, the Giants took him so you’re going to take the opposite view…
I believe in analytics, but the output is only as good as the data you put in. 99% of the data says Robinson should be a stud, and he appears to have the football character to at least get close to whatever his ceiling is if he stays healthy, but the 1% not included could derail his entire career. The only player comp with an arm length close to Robinson is Rondale Moore and even then Moore’s are longer although height difference evens it out. Moore has played 1 year and nobody knows if that will be his best year or his worst. Moore also verticaled 20-25% higher than Robinson. Every other name I have seen is both taller than Robinson and has arms at least 9-10% longer than Robinson. Catch radius matters when you are going against DB’s like Pete Carroll uses in Seattle.
Santana Moss had short arms and in terms of look that's who wan'dale reminds me of most. Moss used to similarly be able to go up for the ball and control his body and make possession receiver plays while looking like a smurf, even towards the end when lost a half step. Rondale has the same size arms and went at almost the same spot last year. I was a lot more worried about him as a prospect than Robinson since everyone was trusting tape from 3 years earlier and he ended up having a better first year than i would have expected.
i think there were some rankers that had rondale as a 1st rounder too.
sometimes there are simple explanations and i think the simplest explanation with robinson's consensus rank is that prior to his breakout at UK he wasn't really on very many radars, and there arent that many people paying a ton of attention to UK football (myself included). if he did what he did for Bama or UGA instead of UK he'd be perceived very differently.
If he shows up, he's on the roster and can help the Giants. Complaining about where he was drafted is moot at this point.
If he doesn't show up, that's another story.
Doesn't mean they're right, just different
they passed on him twice more after Robinson so that's completely unrelated.