I think everyone here is excited to see what Kayvon can become as an edge rusher in the pros. Along with another solid young pass rushing talent in Azeez, this is probably the most pass rushing talent this team has had since they won it all.
But when I was looking at Wink's defenses in Baltimore, I did find it interesting that his teams aren't really known for sacking the QB even when they were great.
2021: 34 sacks (24th in the league)
2020: 39 sacks (14th)
2019: 37 sacks (21st)
2018: 43 sacks (13th)
Those aren't exactly bad rankings. But for a defense that was ranked 2nd/3rd/2nd in terms of points allowed from 2018-2020, it's obvious that actually getting to the QB wasn't the key to their success.
Another noteworthy thing about the sack totals is that Wink's D really spreads them out, there's no premier guy that is racking up a ton of sacks.
Team Leader in Sacks
2021: Tyus Bowser (7.0 sacks)
2020: Matt Judon (6.0 sacks)
2019: Matt Judon (9.5 sacks)
2018: Za'Darius Smith (8.5 sacks)
In 4 years as DC, with 3 of them leading elite defenses, Wink never had a double digit sack guy. That 2020 season in particular is pretty crazy. 2nd ranked defense, 14th overall in sacks, but your #1 pass rusher only has 6 sacks. Although his edge rushing talent wasn't amazing in Baltimore, he did have guys who racked up more sacks once they left his defense.
Matt Judon had 7.0, 9.5, and 6.0 sacks from 2018 to 2020 under Wink. He goes to New England in 2021 and racks up 12.5 sacks.
Za'Darius Smith had 8.5 sacks in 2018 under Wink, the most he had in his 4 years at Baltimore. He goes to Green Bay and puts up 12.5 sacks in 2019 and 13.5 sacks in 2020.
Another aspect of all this is that Wink was a very aggressive blitzer.
Team Rank in Blitz% (as per Pro-Football Reference)
2021: 31.1% (6th)
2020: 44.1% (1st)
2019: 54.9% (1st)
2018: 39.6% (1st)
Wink is a guy that really likes to bring the heat from a variety of angles. The word "exotic" gets used a lot, but it really does apply to Wink's style of attacking the QB. He likes to come from all angles and spreads out where and who is pressuring the QB, relying a lot on his DB talent to take care of business in coverage. Clearly it worked in Baltimore before last year, but I wonder if his unique style will need to be adjusted due to the different personnel he has on this team.
Based on Wink just straight up admitting he felt that CBs were more valuable than edge rushers along with the fact that the insiders here felt like Sauce was the guy the Giants really wanted, you have to wonder if the Kayvon pick was more about pure talent rather than an ideal fit in Wink's eyes.
It will be interesting to see how Kayvon and Azeez are utilized. How much will Wink adjust his style to fit the Giants vs. what he did with the Ravens?
I would imagine that Wink is VERY disappointed by not getting Sauce, but is going to be very happy to have a guy like Kayvon.
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Kayvon pick was more about pure talent rather than an ideal fit in Wink's eyes.
I would imagine that Wink is VERY disappointed by not getting Sauce, but is going to be very happy to have a guy like Kayvon.
Yea, I'm sure he's still happy to have a guy like Kayvon. But many of us here are hoping that Kayvon can become that superstar 12-15 sack a year kind of stud. Based on Wink's history in Baltimore, he doesn't really rely on one guy to rack up all the sacks like that.
Baltimore didn't have a guy like KT.
And if you accept that Wink is still going to run games up front to confuse the blocking schemes, KT may actually get some cheap sacks in addition to the hard-won sacks.
One of the talking heads, I believe it was Shefter, was on the other night and said that Cox was at one of the dinners with KT and was asking him personal "family" questions that got under his skin and KT had to go to the bathroom to cool off...sounds like Cox was baiting him a bit to see what he's made of but apparently everything's cool between them according to Shefter.
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get a chuckle out of the fact that Bryan Cox is on this coaching staff.
One of the talking heads, I believe it was Shefter, was on the other night and said that Cox was at one of the dinners with KT and was asking him personal "family" questions that got under his skin and KT had to go to the bathroom to cool off...sounds like Cox was baiting him a bit to see what he's made of but apparently everything's cool between them according to Shefter.
Really? That's interesting.
This will be a learning experience for the players and coaches. New system and assignments. The first few games may be a disaster with missed assignments and blown coverages. I think this is where Martinez will be so important. He is a true defensive QB. They will need McKinney to step up and make the correct DB reads.
I'd guess Wink's defenses were near the top on pressure, if not on sacks.
Baltimore didn't have a guy like KT.
And if you accept that Wink is still going to run games up front to confuse the blocking schemes, KT may actually get some cheap sacks in addition to the hard-won sacks.
Agreed. If you go back and look at Wink's time as Balt's Linebackers Coach it's a very different story. Judon and Smith are very good players but they didn't have Thibs's talent and were very much raw mid-late round picks. Suggs was past his prime when he took over but still had 7 sacks in his age 36 season.
Baltimore didn't have a guy like KT.
And if you accept that Wink is still going to run games up front to confuse the blocking schemes, KT may actually get some cheap sacks in addition to the hard-won sacks.
Hopefully you're right. I do agree with you and JonC that Wink has never had a guy with Kayvon's 1st step before. Maybe it allows Wink to think of new ways to get the most out a talent like that.
But I do think the fact that Judon and Smith both went from ~8 sack guys to ~12 sack guys immediately after leaving Wink is more than a coincidence.
Trust me, I'm super excited for KT. I miss having an elite pass rush. Hopefully Wink and co. can get the most out a talent like him.
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In comment 15697147 Eric from BBI said:
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get a chuckle out of the fact that Bryan Cox is on this coaching staff.
One of the talking heads, I believe it was Shefter, was on the other night and said that Cox was at one of the dinners with KT and was asking him personal "family" questions that got under his skin and KT had to go to the bathroom to cool off...sounds like Cox was baiting him a bit to see what he's made of but apparently everything's cool between them according to Shefter.
Really? That's interesting.
Yep, that's what he said....totally fits Coxs' personality/MO. I take it as a good sign that he was still the pick but definitely interesting.
I think the numbers indicate that as aggressive as Wink is as a blitzer, it's not necessarily with the intent of generating sacks. as you pointed out they had some great defenses without generating a lot of sacks. so i can only speculate that he's blitzing to help facilitate good coverage by pressuring the QB as opposed to the intent being to get the QB on the ground as much as possible.
KT like Oweh could add a dynamic presence. The entire front 7 seems like it has some fits with the Ravens personnel. Williams can be the Calais, Lawrence is a nose sized athlete, there are a lot of different types of mix and match LBs. McKinney is also very much like a Ravens safety.
So to me the big question with the defense is whether or not they can play the types of coverages wink likes since that's the foundation. the amount they've shopped JB makes me think he's not a great fit and if they do keep him Wink may need to make some adaptations. I'd be curious to hear whether he could or couldn't plug into the Jimmy Smith role though.
Wink is more from the Buddy Ryan school in that he likes to generate pressure if he doesn't have LT or Rickey Jackson out there. But if he has a Rickey Jackson, he's not going to limit him. (And if team's concentrate on KT, it's going to open up things for other rushers on a hopefully confused OL already).
It - combined with Schoen's remarks on Sunday - make me think that Bradberry may be sticking around. We'll see.
Through BAL's first 9 games they were 6-3 and Oweh's statline was:
4 sacks
5 TFLs
2 FF
11 QB hits
Here were Parsons numbers through 9 games:
6 sacks
11 TFLs
1 FF
15 QB hits
It's unrealistic to expect any rookie to produce like Parsons did last year and I'd gladly sign for Thibs producing like Oweh did through the first half of the year, without the second half falloff (he only had 1 sack in the final 8 games).
It - combined with Schoen's remarks on Sunday - make me think that Bradberry may be sticking around. We'll see.
Agreed, I think Bradberry stays somehow
I'm pretty sure if Ravens had a chance to draft Bosa brothers or Watt brothers or Myles Garrett (I'm not saying KT is them), the value is high that they would draft them.
Wonder how he did against Cincy last year. I tend to worry about heavy blitzing when you face a talented QB who has the OL/weapons. Little light on corner talent magnifies the issue imv.
I think he is pretty damn happy.
It - combined with Schoen's remarks on Sunday - make me think that Bradberry may be sticking around. We'll see.
this has been the fascinating aspect of evaluating the existing roster all offseason imo. the nyg roster had a ton of $ invested in the secondary, but who fits with Wink and who doesnt?
Can Bradberry and Jackson do what Jimmy Smith and Peters did? In theory they don't seem so far off since all 4 have ball skills and can play press. Bradberry is slow by CB standards but so is Smith. Peters and Jackson are both known for their ball skills.
the nyg don't have a Marlon Humphrey - which is likely why they were so hot to add Sauce. But they do have McKinney, and now 3 talented young guys to fight for the slot with Robinson, Flott, and Holmes.
if I was guessing an area where the NYG add another significant piece though it would be the secondary and someone who fits very well with Wink. A Chuck Clark type.
I did notice his son was with Daboll/Schoen in Buffalo last season
I think he is pretty damn happy.
I did not. Link to that, please?
kind of cuts both ways, also played offenses playing from behind and abandoning run which usually helps with sacks too.
23/38 409 10.9 3 1 1-7 -- 113.5
37/46 498 11.4 4 0 3-27 -- 143.2
Week 7 and 15. Two blowouts. Ouch, but I don't know when the corners got hurt.
Mahomes lit them up good. Rodgers was middle of the pack.
it's not really an argument, sacks are better and everyone wants as many as possible. but pressures are statistically proven to make QBs play worse.
The importance of pressure: It's not all about sacks - ( New Window )
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did you guys see the big hug Wink gave KT when he arrived?
I think he is pretty damn happy.
I did not. Link to that, please?
Here you go!
FIRST 24 Hours: Giants Draft Kayvon Thibodeaux & Evan Neal - ( New Window )
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In comment 15697202 Eric from BBI said:
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did you guys see the big hug Wink gave KT when he arrived?
I think he is pretty damn happy.
I did not. Link to that, please?
Here you go! FIRST 24 Hours: Giants Draft Kayvon Thibodeaux & Evan Neal - ( New Window )
Thibodeaux seemed genuinely moved when he mentioned legacy. I think it's pretty obvious that if this kid performs he's going to be a superstar.
I posted the "first 24 hours" video for KT and Neal yesterday and there's Wink waiting outside of KT's limo as he pulls up to the facility. I think he's got to be thrilled with the selection.
Much depends on whether Bradberry wants to be here. He may not. If he doesn't, he can tell his agent not to accept a re-structure.
Thank you Joe Schoen for being astute enough to trade down to add this draft choice. (Belton too)
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this is a rebuild yes, but i think part of that rebuild is not being an embarrassment this year. That doesn't necessarily mean winning a lot, but we can't be an embarrassment. And part of that is being respectable and competitive in the most important spots. The o-line has prevented that for years but now there's at least a chance that the line will be respectable. Our pass rush should now be respectable. If we cut bradberry now, we could have a game-wrecking hole on defense that wink can't scheme around. i know we need money and we don't want to push money to the future, but there is a responsible way yo do it. as others have pointed out, there is 3-4m of low hanging fruit that can be cut - ximines, martin etc. we could add a couple void years to bradberry to save $4m more and then a small restructure on LW to get another 4-5m. This can be done.
Much depends on whether Bradberry wants to be here. He may not. If he doesn't, he can tell his agent not to accept a re-structure.
the giants put language in all their contracts allowing them to restructure without needing acceptance from the player - but based on the logan ryan outcome i doubt they will keep him if he doesn't want to be here.
I have a feeling Wink blitzes less than he has recently with the Ravens. I'm not too confident in Adoree, Robinson and Flott holding up in Cover 1 or Cover 0. This may especially be the case if Thibs is the goods and they can generate without sending extra defenders early.
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The pressures v. sacks argument brings back bad memories of Olivier Vernon. I'm hoping for a lot more than that out of Thibodeaux.
it's not really an argument, sacks are better and everyone wants as many as possible. but pressures are statistically proven to make QBs play worse.
The importance of pressure: It's not all about sacks - ( New Window )
I agree with the premise, but the definition of a "pressure" is my question. Vernon was often credited for pressures when in reality he was pretty ineffectual.
Pressure in less than 2.5 seconds is the golden ticket and Thibodeaux excels at that. Sacks are how guys get paid, pressures win games.
That guy formerly in NE found that out twice.
Through BAL's first 9 games they were 6-3 and Oweh's statline was:
4 sacks
5 TFLs
2 FF
11 QB hits
Here were Parsons numbers through 9 games:
6 sacks
11 TFLs
1 FF
15 QB hits
It's unrealistic to expect any rookie to produce like Parsons did last year and I'd gladly sign for Thibs producing like Oweh did through the first half of the year, without the second half falloff (he only had 1 sack in the final 8 games).
Oweh, coming out of college was nowhere near Thibs talent or production...
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Through the first half of the season Oweh was pacing pretty close to Parsons and the BAL defense was again at the top of the league.
Through BAL's first 9 games they were 6-3 and Oweh's statline was:
4 sacks
5 TFLs
2 FF
11 QB hits
Here were Parsons numbers through 9 games:
6 sacks
11 TFLs
1 FF
15 QB hits
It's unrealistic to expect any rookie to produce like Parsons did last year and I'd gladly sign for Thibs producing like Oweh did through the first half of the year, without the second half falloff (he only had 1 sack in the final 8 games).
Oweh, coming out of college was nowhere near Thibs talent or production...
Agreed, Thibs is a more technically polished football player. I really wish people would shove their RAS analytics up their ass. You know how many track stars I saw come through Div 1aa ball that impressed in the weight room but couldnt shed a block? TECHNIQUE WINS OUT.
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In comment 15697202 Eric from BBI said:
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did you guys see the big hug Wink gave KT when he arrived?
I think he is pretty damn happy.
I did not. Link to that, please?
Here you go! FIRST 24 Hours: Giants Draft Kayvon Thibodeaux & Evan Neal - ( New Window )
Thank you!
Amen!
Wink is more from the Buddy Ryan school in that he likes to generate pressure if he doesn't have LT or Rickey Jackson out there. But if he has a Rickey Jackson, he's not going to limit him. (And if team's concentrate on KT, it's going to open up things for other rushers on a hopefully confused OL already).
Exactly.
@Eric LI,
Oweh tested better than Thibs, and I made a lot of noise during Oweh's draft about the Giants picking him or Tryon.
But, I have no doubt Thibs has more upside as an NFL pass rusher. Oweh is super rare, an athlete learning football. Thibs is a natural, already has multiple pass rush moves, plays with power, can switch from power to speed, and that first step and downhill burst is rare. I've seen him take over games and destroy OLs and play series in college, and he's just a kid. Unleash him.
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In comment 15697270 JJ2525 said:
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this is a rebuild yes, but i think part of that rebuild is not being an embarrassment this year. That doesn't necessarily mean winning a lot, but we can't be an embarrassment. And part of that is being respectable and competitive in the most important spots. The o-line has prevented that for years but now there's at least a chance that the line will be respectable. Our pass rush should now be respectable. If we cut bradberry now, we could have a game-wrecking hole on defense that wink can't scheme around. i know we need money and we don't want to push money to the future, but there is a responsible way yo do it. as others have pointed out, there is 3-4m of low hanging fruit that can be cut - ximines, martin etc. we could add a couple void years to bradberry to save $4m more and then a small restructure on LW to get another 4-5m. This can be done.
Much depends on whether Bradberry wants to be here. He may not. If he doesn't, he can tell his agent not to accept a re-structure.
the giants put language in all their contracts allowing them to restructure without needing acceptance from the player - but based on the logan ryan outcome i doubt they will keep him if he doesn't want to be here.
Wait, what? A team can't restructure a deal without a player agreeing. That's nuts.
Don't quote me, my 3 year old is wreaking havoc on my sleep and sanity.
Don't quote me, my 3 year old is wreaking havoc on my sleep and sanity.
I assumed that only applies to converting salary into bonus, and if the player is in his final year it doesn’t affect the cap in any way?
A likely example is Leonard Williams. He has 19M in guaranteed salary that is paid over the course of the year.
The clause would say the Giants can convert 18M to a restructure bonus. He benefits because he gets all that cash today. The Giants can then spread that cost over two years.
In this scenario the move 9M from 22 > 23 cap.
Bradberry has 13.4M in remaining salary, on the final year of his contract. The Giants can convert some of that to a restructure bonus and spread across voidable years.
They've already done that once. The second restructure bonus they did last year to save 4M added 1.36M to a void year in 2023.
in terms of results however if I told you Thibs rookie season production is:
8 sacks
4 FF
10 TFLs
22 QB hits
50+ pressures
would you sign for that?
I probably would. And to my point that's extrapolating the production Wink got out of Oweh in the first half before their secondary fell apart. Which to be clear is a better season than Oweh because I think Thibs is a better player, including being capable of playing more snaps.
expecting better than that is probably unrealistic because it's getting close to what Parsons did.
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I assumed that only applies to converting salary into bonus, and if the player is in his final year it doesn’t affect the cap in any way?
Bradberry has 13.4M in remaining salary, on the final year of his contract. The Giants can convert some of that to a restructure bonus and spread across voidable years.
They've already done that once. The second restructure bonus they did last year to save 4M added 1.36M to a void year in 2023.
im pretty sure the void year screws up any comp pick for the future, so I'd now be a little more surprised if they decide to punt money into the future.
I think the options are basically extend or cut. if they like him enough to put money in the future then better to extend and have the option to keep. they don't need to cut him immediately if the extension is a no go, they can keep playing this thing out because there's no downside, but if they dont see him as useful beyond 1 season it's basically just praying for something to change elsewhere.
anyone know a guy who can spike a few DB's drinks with low grade beaver tranqs?
KT was just too good to pass up. Wink was on board too. Bisignano shared a story on Giants Insider about KT blowing the Giants away with his philosophy on setting OTs up for the 4th quarter. (He lead the nation in 4th quarter sacks.) He sets guys up, learns their movements and unleashes hell in crunch time. He's almost psychotic about the way he approaches the game.
Wink's never had an ER like this. Big time football player that transcends scheme.
But I think a lot of Wink's blitzes wreaked havoc on the opponent's run game.
im pretty sure the void year screws up any comp pick for the future, so I'd now be a little more surprised if they decide to punt money into the future.
I was going to ask you the other day if you knew if the void year kept him out of the comp formula.
A straight cut just feels like such a waste to me. If his 2022 salary is holding back a decent pick, they could convert some money to a roster bonus they eat.
Something like a 5M roster bonus, and then trade him for a 2023 4th. Would save them 8.3M, net a pick.
He'd be inclined to approve this, because if he's cut he's only guaranteed 2M?
KT was just too good to pass up. Wink was on board too. Bisignano shared a story on Giants Insider about KT blowing the Giants away with his philosophy on setting OTs up for the 4th quarter. (He lead the nation in 4th quarter sacks.) He sets guys up, learns their movements and unleashes hell in crunch time. He's almost psychotic about the way he approaches the game.
Wink's never had an ER like this. Big time football player that transcends scheme.
As to the CB> ER valuation, yeah, trust, but an ER on a rookie contract is not something anyone's going to turn away.
Baltimore let ZaDarius Smith leave in free agency.
Get em young, use the talent, but don't break the bank over it. And the philosophy changes if the talent is special. The Ravens paid to keep Terrell Suggs, for instance.
Well, he did coach Terrell Suggs for quite a long time... ;)
I'd like to see stats to back this up, but the best pressure I have noticed that creates the most problems is up the middle. Outside pressure is nice, but good QBs can step into the pocket, step up and deliver a throw. But pressure from the inside, forces a QB to move laterally or back. And accuracy on the run requires a real gift.
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They've already done that once. The second restructure bonus they did last year to save 4M added 1.36M to a void year in 2023.
im pretty sure the void year screws up any comp pick for the future, so I'd now be a little more surprised if they decide to punt money into the future.
I was going to ask you the other day if you knew if the void year kept him out of the comp formula.
A straight cut just feels like such a waste to me. If his 2022 salary is holding back a decent pick, they could convert some money to a roster bonus they eat.
Something like a 5M roster bonus, and then trade him for a 2023 4th. Would save them 8.3M, net a pick.
He'd be inclined to approve this, because if he's cut he's only guaranteed 2M?
for things to be where they are this one has to just be complicated. here are some things that i think are likely:
1. they don't see JB as a good fit in the defense
2. at some point he will have trade value (camp or deadline) they just got unlucky how the draft fell
so the question is what's the right way to handle moving money around? what's the best use of JB as an asset?
something is always better than nothing so i'd hesitate to cut him. but at some point they have to choose a contingency plan.
so it's chicken or the egg, which contingency plan is the right one?
I guess if pushed i'd say eat the money in the future with an extra void year and convert to signing bonus, make his salary as low as possible this year to make him maximally tradeable, and hope to get a pick at the deadline. Ertz brought back a 5th and a roster player and he wasn't even playing well. if say LAR lose Ramsey or something, I could maybe even see him come close to bringing back a 3rd or a 4th.
i think that keeps the fallout most contained vs. changing Leonard Williams contract since it's so far the only big one undisturbed with a void year. it keeps a reliable veteran and a chance at a pick and dumps some money on next year's cap, which is no big deal because they have a ton of room. if they are going to dump more money on next year they may as well make Bradberry more tradeable in the process (which is what they did with Jackson too).
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The pressures v. sacks argument brings back bad memories of Olivier Vernon. I'm hoping for a lot more than that out of Thibodeaux.
I'd like to see stats to back this up, but the best pressure I have noticed that creates the most problems is up the middle. Outside pressure is nice, but good QBs can step into the pocket, step up and deliver a throw. But pressure from the inside, forces a QB to move laterally or back. And accuracy on the run requires a real gift.
so you're saying a DT top 5 in pressures over the last couple years would be a premium asset?
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In comment 15697222 Go Terps said:
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The pressures v. sacks argument brings back bad memories of Olivier Vernon. I'm hoping for a lot more than that out of Thibodeaux.
I'd like to see stats to back this up, but the best pressure I have noticed that creates the most problems is up the middle. Outside pressure is nice, but good QBs can step into the pocket, step up and deliver a throw. But pressure from the inside, forces a QB to move laterally or back. And accuracy on the run requires a real gift.
so you're saying a DT top 5 in pressures over the last couple years would be a premium asset?
At the right price, sure.
Wink is more from the Buddy Ryan school in that he likes to generate pressure if he doesn't have LT or Rickey Jackson out there. But if he has a Rickey Jackson, he's not going to limit him. (And if team's concentrate on KT, it's going to open up things for other rushers on a hopefully confused OL already).
Great post. I definitely get it. He’s never had “this” piece.
But to continue this devils advocate thread, we haven’t seen Wink with such a weapon. You can’t just assume he’ll know how to utilize it the correct way.
People that make bad into ok aren’t necessarily people that can make ok into really good. We’ll see.
He should've brought cake. You should always bring cake.
Anyway...I think Martindale will be happy with his new additions. It's a safe bet he would have liked to tap a better CB prospect or two (and maybe Safety), but the way the draft unfolded it just wasn't in the cards. There's always next year.
This will be interesting for Martindale because just with L Williams, Azeez and Thibs he can have some pressure players that are capable of getting pressure simply by attacking the man in front of them…which should only make the more exotic stuff that much more effective…one would like to think anyway.
Wink is more from the Buddy Ryan school in that he likes to generate pressure if he doesn't have LT or Rickey Jackson out there. But if he has a Rickey Jackson, he's not going to limit him. (And if team's concentrate on KT, it's going to open up things for other rushers on a hopefully confused OL already).
This reminds me of when we had Osi, Tuck, Strahan and Spags. Spags had an aggressive, in your face Jim Johnson philosophy where he liked to bring the heat, but he also had some toolsy pass rushers to work with. I remember him using those blitz tactics to make it harder to teams to scheme against guys like Osi, and really helped free our rushers up a bit with the pressure looks, confusing offensive fronts. This type of scenario I could see unfolding, and in no way am I trying to compare Williams, Azeez and KT to Strahan, Tuck and Osi.