Judge was basically assured of staying until he started putting his foot in his mouth at the end of the year pressers
We don't really know this as fact. It's been speculated on but for all we know Judge was gone even if he spoke like the Dalai Lama through December of 2021.
More than likely it was the god awful losing streak and lack of competitiveness that did in Judge. That and the take a knee nonsense. And how ill prepared the backup QBs looked. And the historically bad and inept offense.
RE: “If Jones plays well you will all look like idiots”
Why doesn’t that work the other way? Jones is 12-25 as a starter and hasn’t played a full season yet. The team also went all in on Jones last year dipping significantly into 2022 cap dollars, yet Jones led the Giants to a 4-7 record before getting hurt.
But only one side of the argument is to be considered “idiots”. Come on.
Are you serious? Because you and the others have already buried him - saying he sucks, wildly overrating this year's QB draft because you think he sucks, and putting all your chips on "Jones sucks there is no way the Giants can win with him." And you have each said this 5000 times.
The rest of us are saying give him a shot, in what is a transition year anyway with no good free agent options and no time wasted because this year's QB draft stunk. And if he fails, we try to draft a QB next year in a much better year to draft a QB. So how are we idiots if he fails? No one is saying anything definitively about Jones becoming a franchise QB this year.
But you and the others ARE definitively saying he sucks get rid of him now
So if he succeeds, you all look like idiots. If he fails, nothing is lost because we are right back in the same spot and we try to draft a QB in a better QB draft
What exactly does him playing WELL (i.e. decent, OK, good, not great, etc.) do for them? It's not enough to warrant a 2nd contract over $20M or a Franchise Tag of $30M+. The only thing that should get him that is an other worldly, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning season, which is HIGHLY unlikely. So, just about anything he does is moot. He is not likely to be back, in my opinion.
It had nothing to do with liking him or not, 9n my end or the Giants. It is the economics of the game and him not having any equity built up. It just makes no sense from the business sense.
If Jones plays well the Giants have their QB. Let it play out even if the odds are against it. Worry about the money later.
RE:
djm : 9:25 am : link : reply
In comment 15699085 Matt M. said:
Quote:
What exactly does him playing WELL (i.e. decent, OK, good, not great, etc.) do for them? It's not enough to warrant a 2nd contract over $20M or a Franchise Tag of $30M+. The only thing that should get him that is an other worldly, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning season, which is HIGHLY unlikely. So, just about anything he does is moot. He is not likely to be back, in my opinion.
It had nothing to do with liking him or not, 9n my end or the Giants. It is the economics of the game and him not having any equity built up. It just makes no sense from the business sense.
If Jones plays well the Giants have their QB. Let it play out even if the odds are against it. Worry about the money later.
"If Jones plays well"
I think that the other posters point - to keep Jones, the Gmen would be looking at 20-30M a year depending on whether they franchise him or not.
He would need a Brady/Manning type of year to justify that investment (and even then, you'd have the "flash in the pan" 1 year wonder question to work through given his prior history)
Giants don't have the roster for that. Let some other team make that gamble.
He was putting up decent numbers (more than Jones ever had), but never elevated the team and proved he was special.
Looking back now - they would've been better off just cutting their losses, using that salary to to invest in other team improvements, and continue their QB search.
Much like the Vikings should be doing now..
RE: RE: “If Jones plays well you will all look like idiots”
So if he succeeds, you all look like idiots. If he fails, nothing is lost because we are right back in the same spot and we try to draft a QB in a better QB draft
Nothing is lost? What about the games we're losing? What about the opportunity to look at another quarterback?
It's been nothing but losing with Jones.
RE: RE: “If Jones plays well you will all look like idiots”
Why doesn’t that work the other way? Jones is 12-25 as a starter and hasn’t played a full season yet. The team also went all in on Jones last year dipping significantly into 2022 cap dollars, yet Jones led the Giants to a 4-7 record before getting hurt.
But only one side of the argument is to be considered “idiots”. Come on.
Are you serious? Because you and the others have already buried him - saying he sucks, wildly overrating this year's QB draft because you think he sucks, and putting all your chips on "Jones sucks there is no way the Giants can win with him." And you have each said this 5000 times.
The rest of us are saying give him a shot, in what is a transition year anyway with no good free agent options and no time wasted because this year's QB draft stunk. And if he fails, we try to draft a QB next year in a much better year to draft a QB. So how are we idiots if he fails? No one is saying anything definitively about Jones becoming a franchise QB this year.
But you and the others ARE definitively saying he sucks get rid of him now
So if he succeeds, you all look like idiots. If he fails, nothing is lost because we are right back in the same spot and we try to draft a QB in a better QB draft
You say this now, but I can guarantee that when Jones fails this year there will be a myriad of excuses on how it's not his fault, needs more time, etc, because that's what the Daniel Jones Defense Force has done for years.
Those comments on Jones are remarkably good backhanded compliments. They are brilliant in superficially sounding nice but not expressing any real confidence. He definitely went through multiple revisions to get something that good.
RE: Robinson hasn't done jack yet to deserve a starting spot
I think we could probably afford to kick some money down the road...we have plenty of space next year, so it would be tempting to keep him...
but I'm the end by the time the Giants are really ready to make noise JB's value will have dropped, and this opens space to let the young players develop
As far as an offset, I know Vacchiano reported there might be language, but has anyone else confirmed that and how much?
In March Fitzgerald said there’s standard offset language preventing the double dip so as long as he gets 2m on his next deal giants are off the hook (it will get credited back next year).
Cool, thanks. I think Team Bradberry feel he's coming off a down year and want to get a shot at UFA next year. Just a year ago he was coming off a no doubt pro bowl campaign.
Seems like he's willing to get cut, rather than get locked up at a bargain value.
I wonder what the Giants floor on savings would be to keep him.
that's a net pay cut of $4.4m and kind of a "meet in the middle" number right at the AAV Gilmore got from IND.
it would likely pay out $8m as bonus with a minimum base this year, so 2 new prorated hits of $4m this year and next on the already existing void year (which currently carries a 1.36m hit).
net savings to giants $8.4m. 4.4m saved via paycut, 4m kicked to next year. Gets nyg to 14m under the cap (rookie pool costs 12.6).
presumably the nyg have given him some kind of offer like this and his agent is out there shopping it. not sure they find anything close to that number though because the giants could have easily facilitated a trade at a similar or better number even if the trade comp was basically nothing.
So in my scenario JB's choices are take a $9m check and report to camp in a week or sit around waiting for the phone to ring like Logan Ryan a couple years ago hoping something happens in the league that increases interest.
the positive of this scenario for the nyg is that via trade Bradberry becomes better trade bait because his cap # for an acquiring team would be the minimum and in the interim they get a player who has opted in/motivated to earn a new contract.
I tip my hat to Schoen, I didn't think they could improve the offense in the way they did in the draft. When they say "help the kid succeed" -- they did.
I think Neal was the best player in the draft and will pay huge dividends right away. I also like the upgrade at slot WR in Robinson a lot. Plus depth at guard and TE.
Jones has to dramatically improve his play. I am very skeptical.
old friend Jack Rabbit played 927 for TEN (78%)
Joe Haden played 695 for PIT (54%)
Chris Harris played 747 (64%)
Kyle Fuller played 719 (66%)
Xavier Rhodes played 638 (58%)
AJ Bouye played 401 (37%)
Jimmy Smith is out there but he's just a part timer (27%) at this point and was also considering retirement.
Bradberry would be at the top of that list because none can log the snaps and ball production he does. But how much $ is that worth over the cheaper options above? Jenkins and Fuller made 7.5 and 9.5 last year respectively, but seem very likely to make a lot less than that this year. Harris made 8.5. Presumably what he's asking his agent right now.
I tip my hat to Schoen, I didn't think they could improve the offense in the way they did in the draft. When they say "help the kid succeed" -- they did.
I think Neal was the best player in the draft and will pay huge dividends right away. I also like the upgrade at slot WR in Robinson a lot. Plus depth at guard and TE.
Jones has to dramatically improve his play. I am very skeptical.
And stay healthy. Durability is not talked about enough with Jones.
Eric in Li -- I think that's a very reasonable projection.
If they can get there, and you move Slayton and Ximines, you get in a pretty comfortable place to operate.
Dont forget Gates too - I suspect the best thing for both parties is adding another year to that deal. Unless he's miraculously able to compete for a starting spot in a few months.
But in the more likely event that he's starting on PUP for a few months it makes a ton of sense to add a cheap year for next year, and move a little bit of $ off this year. he gets a little extra security and instead of hitting FA without any tape post-injury he gets the security of 1 more offseason before needing to come into camp in 2023 in his contract year.
he's got $2m in non-gtd salary this year on a 3m cap hit so you could probably shave $1m off his cap number by adding a cheap year next year, him not losing any money, and the nyg not having to deal with an injury grievance.
RE: “If Jones plays well you will all look like idiots”
Why doesn’t that work the other way? Jones is 12-25 as a starter and hasn’t played a full season yet. The team also went all in on Jones last year dipping significantly into 2022 cap dollars, yet Jones led the Giants to a 4-7 record before getting hurt.
But only one side of the argument is to be considered “idiots”. Come on.
Yes, can be idiots on both sides, but, Sean, Come on yourself. All in, with the same or worse OL, with SS hurt/out, KT hurt or out most games, Slayton being Slayton, and KG--don't know what to say. SB being the underside of SB last year. Part of your comment that I bolded is such facile spin on your part, you're better than that.
I am in the JS/BD camp: not that I think DJ is a lock to be an elite or franchise QB, at all, but that he is the starter for now and we will evaluate him in the context of 2022's roster and coaching staff. And whatever number of games he's on the field in '22, we'll assess at that time and make the best decision at QB for NYG--and which is not at all necessarily to re-sign him.
I’m not saying the team wasn’t constructed poorly, the OL was neglected. However, the plan was to go all in on guys like Golladay, Jackson, Rudolph & Toney to try to win a crappy division. Schoen/Daboll are paying for those consequences now.
Jones has to dramatically improve his play. I am very skeptical.
I tend to agree, and I think the up hill got steeper in BD/Kafka read quick/get the ball out quick to your receivers either wide or in the slot, not necessarily the longer fly or post patterns where Jones has had some success.
Aside from the apparent desire to hit FA asap, I agree with others that he seems not to want to be with NYG, and maybe the Logan Ryan fallout stuck in his craw. Were they known to be close? Of course, a franchise mired in losing helps hasten the break-up, and Gettleman never minded overpaying to overcome that small disincentive to signing.
Aside from the apparent desire to hit FA asap, I agree with others that he seems not to want to be with NYG, and maybe the Logan Ryan fallout stuck in his craw. Were they known to be close? Of course, a franchise mired in losing helps hasten the break-up, and Gettleman never minded overpaying to overcome that small disincentive to signing.
it actually appears the opposite. schoen said the nyg had trades agreed to with 2 teams and he was unable to reach agreements with those teams on extensions.
i think it's pretty easy to guess those 2 teams possibly included KC (who traded up for McDuffie) or IND (who signed Gilmore) or the Bills who got Elam or other teams who have since drafted or signed other players and moved on.
i think he and his agent just misjudged their market and the likelihood of him getting cut for nothing. i think that's why schoen "feels bad for the kid".
it actually appears the opposite. schoen said the nyg had trades agreed to with 2 teams and he was unable to reach agreements with those teams on extensions....
i think he and his agent just misjudged their market and the likelihood of him getting cut for nothing. i think that's why schoen "feels bad for the kid".
Not grasping 'the opposite: His agents were negotiating with other teams but couldn't agree to terms, money, or, up to this point, with NYG. I don't see anything there that would suggest he was inclined to remain here even under the new regime. As to misjudging the market, seems so, but again nothing in that to suggest he didn't want out of here.
Calling Jones a "win-with" player sounds like a compliment but it's really a nice way of saying he's ok. Jones needs a monster year to change that perception because you don't give out massive QB extensions to "win-with" guys.
"if you can't trust the people in the building you can't have the people in the building".
I mean if that isn't directly quoted at Chris Pettit I don't know what is.
That's very telling. Yet, there are a few dweebs in the other thread lamenting the fact that this guy got fired. My heart bleeds for him..
Schoen def didn't just poo poo the question either. He said sometimes he has to deal with some leaks that make no sense and he has to call and agent or player to say that is not true blah blah blah.
But he did insinuate, especially from the local media, stuff does come out, and he tries to find where that source came from. Interesting...
"You got to trust the people in the building, if you cant, you have the wrong people in the building"
so pretty close as I was listening to it on my phone at the time.
Nice to see Schoen realizing he also has to be a plumber in his GM role and plug unnecessary leaks.
Makes me wonder if someone on his team scans websites like BBI to see what's being discussed by the fanbase. Imagine the reaction seeing the term "Asshat" and the role they play at BBI... ;)
"You got to trust the people in the building, if you cant, you have the wrong people in the building"
so pretty close as I was listening to it on my phone at the time.
Nice to see Schoen realizing he also has to be a plumber in his GM role and plug unnecessary leaks.
Makes me wonder if someone on his team scans websites like BBI to see what's being discussed by the fanbase. Imagine the reaction seeing the term "Asshat" and the role they play at BBI... ;)
I mean JonC basically said that Tim McDonnell has loose lips. We also know that from the Brian Flores lawsuit where Tim McDonnell overstepped his bounds when he is not a decision maker telling a coach to go "win the f*cking job".
Isn't it a pretty well known that Pettit got really close to Tim? I mean if Tim thinks he is going to be doing anything not worthy for Joe Schoen he has another thing coming. Sounds like Chris Mara and Tim M migth just be filing scouting reports and Joe is probably going to throw them in the trash LOL.
Hopefully after these firings Joe brings in some guys he trusts so that continues to push all the nepotism down the decision pole.
Chris Mara's scouting reports go in the player evaluation database
Calling Jones a "win-with" player sounds like a compliment but it's really a nice way of saying he's ok. Jones needs a monster year to change that perception because you don't give out massive QB extensions to "win-with" guys.
There was an article last summer I believe that said the feeling around the league was DJ was a win-with type of qb not a win-because type. Interesting to hear that come from the GM.
RE: Chris Mara's scouting reports go in the player evaluation database
Been meaning to post this (sorry if already has) since Thursday morning 4/28 or so. GoDeep has had a pretty decent record at asshattery, best as I recall. What struck and stuck with me from his last pre-draft post was, to the effect I think, that the Giants were pretty much all in on one, or more, of the OTs, whether Cross, Neal, Ickey.
What he did say w/o qualification iirc was that--per his source(s)--the Giants were not going to go Edge on Thursday, and indeed there was way more talk about Cross than KT, Jr. And, of course, JG went right at KT, Jr. at #5 not to risk CAR taking or trading down. Whether deliberate plant of disinformation to identify potential leakers or just effective smokescreen, I thought his post, which of course got a ton of looks and comments, was interesting. Not saying or directing anything at all negative about GD13, he tells us what he hears and it's only as good as the source.
Calling Jones a "win-with" player sounds like a compliment but it's really a nice way of saying he's ok. Jones needs a monster year to change that perception because you don't give out massive QB extensions to "win-with" guys.
There was an article last summer I believe that said the feeling around the league was DJ was a win-with type of qb not a win-because type. Interesting to hear that come from the GM.
Nice, I'll have to find that purely out of confirmation bias because I think that's the right take.
It will be better than his rookie year by decent margin. Jones was not good as a rookie you, I agree. I will admit the stats looked decent for a rookie though. He is going to get Josh Allen's year 1&2 system. If Toney, Barkley and Robinson are healthy, they are going to catch short passes with a ton of YAC, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand how that is going to compile stats. They made early Josh Allen stats look better by flipping the jet sweeps. You can't find an easier completion and those three are going to break some. It just is going to happen. I think you are going to see something like:
4k+ yards 69% completion and 30-40 TDs rushing and passing combined over 17 games. We win 7-9 games depending on how balls bounce. Those stats are going to be earned by the skill players. Jones is not going to be pushing the ball downfield that much. The Chiefs were doing bad early last year because Mahomes was waiting on the big play. Once they got him to get it out quick to the playmakers the Chiefs started rolling. This offense will driven by skill players and playcalling/scheming by the OC. This will not be a QB driven system. He is going to do well.
Colhowpepper what's opposite is JB probably stands to make more $
Logan Ryan's decision was likely a very binary one, play for the giants or play for tampa. money equal (or even better in tampa bc of taxes).
James Bradberry had the chance to get traded elsewhere twice and instead of being willing to accept what 2 teams that wanted him thought was FMV, he chose to remain a NYG and potentially become a cap casualty with minimal safety net.
Logan Ryan knew he was guaranteed 5m this year no matter what, and likely also knew his open market value wasn't above that. His year was essentially locked in no matter where he played.
James Bradberry's range of potential salary this year were completely different.
There was the amount the teams who tried to trade for him offered him. (10-11m aav?)
The salary terms of his current deal, which the nyg were willing to eat in part to facilitate a trade. (13.4m)
And there's the situation he's in now - where he could face an open market without much available cap $. (5m? 7m?)
turning down the other 2 teams to stay on the giants seems like a mistake - and one i dont think a player who wanted out would have made. but i guess we will find out tomorrow.
Bradberry must be presuming one or both of those teams will up
Calling Jones a "win-with" player sounds like a compliment but it's really a nice way of saying he's ok. Jones needs a monster year to change that perception because you don't give out massive QB extensions to "win-with" guys.
There was an article last summer I believe that said the feeling around the league was DJ was a win-with type of qb not a win-because type. Interesting to hear that come from the GM.
Nice, I'll have to find that purely out of confirmation bias because I think that's the right take.
Here you go, Aces. Breer wrote this last May, although if you changed the date to 2022 you probably wouldn't know the difference
I get where you are coming from now; my thought on alignment with Ryan wasn't on the contract dollars saved or waived (forsaken), on either side, player or NYG, so much as IF he was tight with LR, it might have colored his outlook if he had been thinking of re-upping. Your analysis has been pretty drill down on both of them from the get-go, so no arguments from me. Bradberry and his camp have been pretty opaque in terms of reading his financial interests/bottom lines.
so here's a different but maybe important question re bradberry
finances aside, what kind of role could Wink build for him in this defense to earn a big contract next year?
after all if he was turning down extensions and his priority was hitting UFA again, the most important thing for him is being in a situation where he can play well this year.
if he were an obvious fit for wink's scheme i think this probably would have been solved already so i think we can assume he's not, probably because he's a better zone corner than press man. but if they had no use of him he'd have been cut already.
there have been some loose rumors about him possibly in more of a safety role but having never played deep and not having speed that seems unlikely in the traditional safety sense. what might make sense is playing him in the star type position as a matchup player.
He has been a pretty good blitzer and 2 years ago was a very solid tackler. In man concepts maybe they can match him up where his length can help him against TEs like Goedert, Schultz, Thomas. Maybe some bigger WRs like Gallup, AJB. They also play DK Metcalf, Mark Andrews, and Michael Pittman next year. Justin Jefferson and Treylon Burks as well.
Wink's D has featured some very creative usage of DBs and while Chuck Clark is much more of a traditional safety, there's definitely a blitzing DB role available and Bradberry may be the best fit for it other than McKinney (who is also probably the best candidate to play centerfield so you may not want him blitzing too much). Almost like the Deon Grant/Antrel Rolle in the slot role.
I get where you are coming from now; my thought on alignment with Ryan wasn't on the contract dollars saved or waived (forsaken), on either side, player or NYG, so much as IF he was tight with LR, it might have colored his outlook if he had been thinking of re-upping. Your analysis has been pretty drill down on both of them from the get-go, so no arguments from me. Bradberry and his camp have been pretty opaque in terms of reading his financial interests/bottom lines.
yeah ultimately i think both players were given chances to stay on nyg terms. ryan chose to leave. bradberry may choose exactly the same, though i think it's possible it may be against his financial interest to do so, so he may choose the opposite because he kind of did exactly that by defacto veto'ing the 2 trades.
“There’s a situation where we could convert the salary [into a bonus] and kick it down the road,” Schoen said, “but that’s why we are in the situation we are in, because of moves like that — which we are trying to avoid. … It’s unfortunate that his contract is structured in a way that he is one of the few you can move on from and it wouldn’t kill you. That’s what I’ve been fighting over the last three months and continue to wrestle with.”
QB Hell, Cap Hell, Roster Hell, Culture Hell, Leak Hell...
What exactly does him playing WELL (i.e. decent, OK, good, not great, etc.) do for them? It's not enough to warrant a 2nd contract over $20M or a Franchise Tag of $30M+. The only thing that should get him that is an other worldly, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning season, which is HIGHLY unlikely. So, just about anything he does is moot. He is not likely to be back, in my opinion.
It had nothing to do with liking him or not, 9n my end or the Giants. It is the economics of the game and him not having any equity built up. It just makes no sense from the business sense.
If Jones plays well the Giants have their QB. Let it play out even if the odds are against it. Worry about the money later.
Really? So, after year 4, with a new contract necessary, if he plays well (to me that means just decent) we have our QB? You are willing to invest more years at over $20M/per for an OK QB with a roster still under construction? That's insane to me.
Some of the same takes were delivered when Leonard Williams had the season of his life in a contract year and people insisted he should be paid any amount to keep him.
We don't really know this as fact. It's been speculated on but for all we know Judge was gone even if he spoke like the Dalai Lama through December of 2021.
More than likely it was the god awful losing streak and lack of competitiveness that did in Judge. That and the take a knee nonsense. And how ill prepared the backup QBs looked. And the historically bad and inept offense.
But only one side of the argument is to be considered “idiots”. Come on.
Are you serious? Because you and the others have already buried him - saying he sucks, wildly overrating this year's QB draft because you think he sucks, and putting all your chips on "Jones sucks there is no way the Giants can win with him." And you have each said this 5000 times.
The rest of us are saying give him a shot, in what is a transition year anyway with no good free agent options and no time wasted because this year's QB draft stunk. And if he fails, we try to draft a QB next year in a much better year to draft a QB. So how are we idiots if he fails? No one is saying anything definitively about Jones becoming a franchise QB this year.
But you and the others ARE definitively saying he sucks get rid of him now
So if he succeeds, you all look like idiots. If he fails, nothing is lost because we are right back in the same spot and we try to draft a QB in a better QB draft
It had nothing to do with liking him or not, 9n my end or the Giants. It is the economics of the game and him not having any equity built up. It just makes no sense from the business sense.
If Jones plays well the Giants have their QB. Let it play out even if the odds are against it. Worry about the money later.
djm : 9:25 am : link : reply
In comment 15699085 Matt M. said:
Quote:
What exactly does him playing WELL (i.e. decent, OK, good, not great, etc.) do for them? It's not enough to warrant a 2nd contract over $20M or a Franchise Tag of $30M+. The only thing that should get him that is an other worldly, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning season, which is HIGHLY unlikely. So, just about anything he does is moot. He is not likely to be back, in my opinion.
It had nothing to do with liking him or not, 9n my end or the Giants. It is the economics of the game and him not having any equity built up. It just makes no sense from the business sense.
If Jones plays well the Giants have their QB. Let it play out even if the odds are against it. Worry about the money later.
"If Jones plays well"
I think that the other posters point - to keep Jones, the Gmen would be looking at 20-30M a year depending on whether they franchise him or not.
He would need a Brady/Manning type of year to justify that investment (and even then, you'd have the "flash in the pan" 1 year wonder question to work through given his prior history)
Giants don't have the roster for that. Let some other team make that gamble.
He was putting up decent numbers (more than Jones ever had), but never elevated the team and proved he was special.
Looking back now - they would've been better off just cutting their losses, using that salary to to invest in other team improvements, and continue their QB search.
Much like the Vikings should be doing now..
Nothing is lost? What about the games we're losing? What about the opportunity to look at another quarterback?
It's been nothing but losing with Jones.
Quote:
Why doesn’t that work the other way? Jones is 12-25 as a starter and hasn’t played a full season yet. The team also went all in on Jones last year dipping significantly into 2022 cap dollars, yet Jones led the Giants to a 4-7 record before getting hurt.
But only one side of the argument is to be considered “idiots”. Come on.
Are you serious? Because you and the others have already buried him - saying he sucks, wildly overrating this year's QB draft because you think he sucks, and putting all your chips on "Jones sucks there is no way the Giants can win with him." And you have each said this 5000 times.
The rest of us are saying give him a shot, in what is a transition year anyway with no good free agent options and no time wasted because this year's QB draft stunk. And if he fails, we try to draft a QB next year in a much better year to draft a QB. So how are we idiots if he fails? No one is saying anything definitively about Jones becoming a franchise QB this year.
But you and the others ARE definitively saying he sucks get rid of him now
So if he succeeds, you all look like idiots. If he fails, nothing is lost because we are right back in the same spot and we try to draft a QB in a better QB draft
You say this now, but I can guarantee that when Jones fails this year there will be a myriad of excuses on how it's not his fault, needs more time, etc, because that's what the Daniel Jones Defense Force has done for years.
On the 2022 version of the Giants, the most important ability that many players possess is affordability.
but I'm the end by the time the Giants are really ready to make noise JB's value will have dropped, and this opens space to let the young players develop
Quote:
As far as an offset, I know Vacchiano reported there might be language, but has anyone else confirmed that and how much?
In March Fitzgerald said there’s standard offset language preventing the double dip so as long as he gets 2m on his next deal giants are off the hook (it will get credited back next year).
Cool, thanks. I think Team Bradberry feel he's coming off a down year and want to get a shot at UFA next year. Just a year ago he was coming off a no doubt pro bowl campaign.
Seems like he's willing to get cut, rather than get locked up at a bargain value.
I wonder what the Giants floor on savings would be to keep him.
that's a net pay cut of $4.4m and kind of a "meet in the middle" number right at the AAV Gilmore got from IND.
it would likely pay out $8m as bonus with a minimum base this year, so 2 new prorated hits of $4m this year and next on the already existing void year (which currently carries a 1.36m hit).
net savings to giants $8.4m. 4.4m saved via paycut, 4m kicked to next year. Gets nyg to 14m under the cap (rookie pool costs 12.6).
presumably the nyg have given him some kind of offer like this and his agent is out there shopping it. not sure they find anything close to that number though because the giants could have easily facilitated a trade at a similar or better number even if the trade comp was basically nothing.
So in my scenario JB's choices are take a $9m check and report to camp in a week or sit around waiting for the phone to ring like Logan Ryan a couple years ago hoping something happens in the league that increases interest.
the positive of this scenario for the nyg is that via trade Bradberry becomes better trade bait because his cap # for an acquiring team would be the minimum and in the interim they get a player who has opted in/motivated to earn a new contract.
Dan Jones is the QB and were going to see what he can do this season -JS
I think Neal was the best player in the draft and will pay huge dividends right away. I also like the upgrade at slot WR in Robinson a lot. Plus depth at guard and TE.
Jones has to dramatically improve his play. I am very skeptical.
If they can get there, and you move Slayton and Ximines, you get in a pretty comfortable place to operate.
Joe Haden played 695 for PIT (54%)
Chris Harris played 747 (64%)
Kyle Fuller played 719 (66%)
Xavier Rhodes played 638 (58%)
AJ Bouye played 401 (37%)
Jimmy Smith is out there but he's just a part timer (27%) at this point and was also considering retirement.
Bradberry would be at the top of that list because none can log the snaps and ball production he does. But how much $ is that worth over the cheaper options above? Jenkins and Fuller made 7.5 and 9.5 last year respectively, but seem very likely to make a lot less than that this year. Harris made 8.5. Presumably what he's asking his agent right now.
I think Neal was the best player in the draft and will pay huge dividends right away. I also like the upgrade at slot WR in Robinson a lot. Plus depth at guard and TE.
Jones has to dramatically improve his play. I am very skeptical.
And stay healthy. Durability is not talked about enough with Jones.
If they can get there, and you move Slayton and Ximines, you get in a pretty comfortable place to operate.
Dont forget Gates too - I suspect the best thing for both parties is adding another year to that deal. Unless he's miraculously able to compete for a starting spot in a few months.
But in the more likely event that he's starting on PUP for a few months it makes a ton of sense to add a cheap year for next year, and move a little bit of $ off this year. he gets a little extra security and instead of hitting FA without any tape post-injury he gets the security of 1 more offseason before needing to come into camp in 2023 in his contract year.
he's got $2m in non-gtd salary this year on a 3m cap hit so you could probably shave $1m off his cap number by adding a cheap year next year, him not losing any money, and the nyg not having to deal with an injury grievance.
But only one side of the argument is to be considered “idiots”. Come on.
I am in the JS/BD camp: not that I think DJ is a lock to be an elite or franchise QB, at all, but that he is the starter for now and we will evaluate him in the context of 2022's roster and coaching staff. And whatever number of games he's on the field in '22, we'll assess at that time and make the best decision at QB for NYG--and which is not at all necessarily to re-sign him.
it actually appears the opposite. schoen said the nyg had trades agreed to with 2 teams and he was unable to reach agreements with those teams on extensions.
i think it's pretty easy to guess those 2 teams possibly included KC (who traded up for McDuffie) or IND (who signed Gilmore) or the Bills who got Elam or other teams who have since drafted or signed other players and moved on.
i think he and his agent just misjudged their market and the likelihood of him getting cut for nothing. i think that's why schoen "feels bad for the kid".
btw I just googled "james bradberry agents" and this story was the first thing that came up from March 2021.
Giants’ James Bradberry’s faith in young agent results in great success for both - ( New Window )
i think he and his agent just misjudged their market and the likelihood of him getting cut for nothing. i think that's why schoen "feels bad for the kid".
I mean if that isn't directly quoted at Chris Pettit I don't know what is.
I mean if that isn't directly quoted at Chris Pettit I don't know what is.
He said that? Wow.
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"if you can't trust the people in the building you can't have the people in the building".
I mean if that isn't directly quoted at Chris Pettit I don't know what is.
He said that? Wow.
I just listened to it and I think I slightly misquoted him. I saved the spot where he said it but its close:
https://youtu.be/EXCFRkPCCj0?t=822
"You got to trust the people in the building, if you cant, you have the wrong people in the building"
so pretty close as I was listening to it on my phone at the time.
I mean if that isn't directly quoted at Chris Pettit I don't know what is.
That's very telling. Yet, there are a few dweebs in the other thread lamenting the fact that this guy got fired. My heart bleeds for him..
Quote:
"if you can't trust the people in the building you can't have the people in the building".
I mean if that isn't directly quoted at Chris Pettit I don't know what is.
That's very telling. Yet, there are a few dweebs in the other thread lamenting the fact that this guy got fired. My heart bleeds for him..
Schoen def didn't just poo poo the question either. He said sometimes he has to deal with some leaks that make no sense and he has to call and agent or player to say that is not true blah blah blah.
But he did insinuate, especially from the local media, stuff does come out, and he tries to find where that source came from. Interesting...
"You got to trust the people in the building, if you cant, you have the wrong people in the building"
so pretty close as I was listening to it on my phone at the time.
Nice to see Schoen realizing he also has to be a plumber in his GM role and plug unnecessary leaks.
Makes me wonder if someone on his team scans websites like BBI to see what's being discussed by the fanbase. Imagine the reaction seeing the term "Asshat" and the role they play at BBI... ;)
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"You got to trust the people in the building, if you cant, you have the wrong people in the building"
so pretty close as I was listening to it on my phone at the time.
Nice to see Schoen realizing he also has to be a plumber in his GM role and plug unnecessary leaks.
Makes me wonder if someone on his team scans websites like BBI to see what's being discussed by the fanbase. Imagine the reaction seeing the term "Asshat" and the role they play at BBI... ;)
I mean JonC basically said that Tim McDonnell has loose lips. We also know that from the Brian Flores lawsuit where Tim McDonnell overstepped his bounds when he is not a decision maker telling a coach to go "win the f*cking job".
Isn't it a pretty well known that Pettit got really close to Tim? I mean if Tim thinks he is going to be doing anything not worthy for Joe Schoen he has another thing coming. Sounds like Chris Mara and Tim M migth just be filing scouting reports and Joe is probably going to throw them in the trash LOL.
Hopefully after these firings Joe brings in some guys he trusts so that continues to push all the nepotism down the decision pole.
Joe doesn't have to throw them in the trash to disreagrd them...
There was an article last summer I believe that said the feeling around the league was DJ was a win-with type of qb not a win-because type. Interesting to hear that come from the GM.
Joe doesn't have to throw them in the trash to disreagrd them...
it was a figure of speech...
Been meaning to post this (sorry if already has) since Thursday morning 4/28 or so. GoDeep has had a pretty decent record at asshattery, best as I recall. What struck and stuck with me from his last pre-draft post was, to the effect I think, that the Giants were pretty much all in on one, or more, of the OTs, whether Cross, Neal, Ickey.
What he did say w/o qualification iirc was that--per his source(s)--the Giants were not going to go Edge on Thursday, and indeed there was way more talk about Cross than KT, Jr. And, of course, JG went right at KT, Jr. at #5 not to risk CAR taking or trading down. Whether deliberate plant of disinformation to identify potential leakers or just effective smokescreen, I thought his post, which of course got a ton of looks and comments, was interesting. Not saying or directing anything at all negative about GD13, he tells us what he hears and it's only as good as the source.
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Calling Jones a "win-with" player sounds like a compliment but it's really a nice way of saying he's ok. Jones needs a monster year to change that perception because you don't give out massive QB extensions to "win-with" guys.
There was an article last summer I believe that said the feeling around the league was DJ was a win-with type of qb not a win-because type. Interesting to hear that come from the GM.
Nice, I'll have to find that purely out of confirmation bias because I think that's the right take.
4k+ yards 69% completion and 30-40 TDs rushing and passing combined over 17 games. We win 7-9 games depending on how balls bounce. Those stats are going to be earned by the skill players. Jones is not going to be pushing the ball downfield that much. The Chiefs were doing bad early last year because Mahomes was waiting on the big play. Once they got him to get it out quick to the playmakers the Chiefs started rolling. This offense will driven by skill players and playcalling/scheming by the OC. This will not be a QB driven system. He is going to do well.
Logan Ryan's decision was likely a very binary one, play for the giants or play for tampa. money equal (or even better in tampa bc of taxes).
James Bradberry had the chance to get traded elsewhere twice and instead of being willing to accept what 2 teams that wanted him thought was FMV, he chose to remain a NYG and potentially become a cap casualty with minimal safety net.
Logan Ryan knew he was guaranteed 5m this year no matter what, and likely also knew his open market value wasn't above that. His year was essentially locked in no matter where he played.
James Bradberry's range of potential salary this year were completely different.
There was the amount the teams who tried to trade for him offered him. (10-11m aav?)
The salary terms of his current deal, which the nyg were willing to eat in part to facilitate a trade. (13.4m)
And there's the situation he's in now - where he could face an open market without much available cap $. (5m? 7m?)
turning down the other 2 teams to stay on the giants seems like a mistake - and one i dont think a player who wanted out would have made. but i guess we will find out tomorrow.
Either that or this guy is totally braindead...
Either that or this guy is totally braindead...
I'd bet a decent amount 1 of those teams was the Colts before signing Gilmore - who got 2 years 20m a week or so before the draft.
I'd guess the other team may have been KC or Buffalo - who each drafted corners in round 1.
He may be staring into the abyss.
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In comment 15699316 AcesUp said:
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Calling Jones a "win-with" player sounds like a compliment but it's really a nice way of saying he's ok. Jones needs a monster year to change that perception because you don't give out massive QB extensions to "win-with" guys.
There was an article last summer I believe that said the feeling around the league was DJ was a win-with type of qb not a win-because type. Interesting to hear that come from the GM.
Nice, I'll have to find that purely out of confirmation bias because I think that's the right take.
Here you go, Aces. Breer wrote this last May, although if you changed the date to 2022 you probably wouldn't know the difference
Link - ( New Window )
after all if he was turning down extensions and his priority was hitting UFA again, the most important thing for him is being in a situation where he can play well this year.
if he were an obvious fit for wink's scheme i think this probably would have been solved already so i think we can assume he's not, probably because he's a better zone corner than press man. but if they had no use of him he'd have been cut already.
there have been some loose rumors about him possibly in more of a safety role but having never played deep and not having speed that seems unlikely in the traditional safety sense. what might make sense is playing him in the star type position as a matchup player.
He has been a pretty good blitzer and 2 years ago was a very solid tackler. In man concepts maybe they can match him up where his length can help him against TEs like Goedert, Schultz, Thomas. Maybe some bigger WRs like Gallup, AJB. They also play DK Metcalf, Mark Andrews, and Michael Pittman next year. Justin Jefferson and Treylon Burks as well.
Wink's D has featured some very creative usage of DBs and while Chuck Clark is much more of a traditional safety, there's definitely a blitzing DB role available and Bradberry may be the best fit for it other than McKinney (who is also probably the best candidate to play centerfield so you may not want him blitzing too much). Almost like the Deon Grant/Antrel Rolle in the slot role.
yeah ultimately i think both players were given chances to stay on nyg terms. ryan chose to leave. bradberry may choose exactly the same, though i think it's possible it may be against his financial interest to do so, so he may choose the opposite because he kind of did exactly that by defacto veto'ing the 2 trades.
QB Hell, Cap Hell, Roster Hell, Culture Hell, Leak Hell...
Did I miss anything else that Gettleman created?
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What exactly does him playing WELL (i.e. decent, OK, good, not great, etc.) do for them? It's not enough to warrant a 2nd contract over $20M or a Franchise Tag of $30M+. The only thing that should get him that is an other worldly, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning season, which is HIGHLY unlikely. So, just about anything he does is moot. He is not likely to be back, in my opinion.
It had nothing to do with liking him or not, 9n my end or the Giants. It is the economics of the game and him not having any equity built up. It just makes no sense from the business sense.
If Jones plays well the Giants have their QB. Let it play out even if the odds are against it. Worry about the money later.