After the draft and seeing that Joe schoen has replaced at least 3 starters and most likely a 4th, I wanted to see what Joe schoen did in his 1st year (with limited cap space) in comparison to gettleman.
Joe schoen and daboll really made an emphasis to fix the offensive line. They have acquired 9 players through free agency and the draft. They did add another after the draft.
Free agents
Mark Glowinski
Matt Gono
Roy Mbaeteka
Max Garcia
Jon Feliciano
Jamil Douglas
NFL draft
Evan Neal
Josh Ezeudu
Marcus Mckethan
Undrafted free agent
Josh Rivas
Gettleman
2018-
Will Hernandez (drafted)
Nate Solder (free agent)
Patrick omameh (free agent)
Jamon brown (waiver claim)
Spencer pulley (waiver claim)
2019 -
Mike remmers (free agent)
Kevin Zietler (trade)
Nick gates (undrafted free agent)
Evan brown (undrafted free agent)
Eric Smith (waiver claim)
2020
Andrew thomas (drafted)
Matt Peart (drafted)
Shane lemieux (drafted)
Cam Fleming (free agent)
2021
Zach Fulton (free agent/ retired)
Jonathan Harrison (free agent)
Matt Skura (waiver claim)
Korey Cunningham (waiver claim)
Ben Bredeson (trade)
Billy price (trade)
In 1 off season, Joe schoen has acquired half the amount of offensive linemen that Gettleman acquired in 4 years. A lot of Gettlemans moves were made in season (waiver claims and trades). The only season he put an emphasis on the offensive line was 2020 (3 drafted and 1 free agent)
I love the emphasis Joe schoen and daboll have put in addressing the offensive line. There will be competition and battles for roster spots. There is versatility to try players at different positions. Positions will be earned more than given. I'm not saying the offensive line is fixed, but I'm excited to see the new additions as I finally feel like there is a real emphasis (and not just talk) to get it right.
It is a great start with limited resources in one season. Hopefully Joe does not go crazy day one in free agency and sits back and waits for better deals. Hopefully the Tackles are set which is the more expensive positions and does not get into bidding wars for players like what happened with Solder.
Gettleman went into 2021 with no safety net and got burned early.
They can be helpful from time to time...
Yeah, I thought about including him, but he was barely here long enough for a cup of coffee.
The resources put into the offensive line wasn't all that significant when you consider 4 seasons worth of draft picks and financial investments. Each year we went into training camp with maybe 9 or 10 total offensive line and we knew we were carrying 8 or 9 on the 53. Injuries and ineffective play killed us every year which lead to trades (price and Bredeson) and waiver claims.
At the time of the quote:
Peart did not have back injuries(occurred in June after draft)
Lemieux was healthy(injured August)
Gates was not injured(week 2)
Fulton didn’t quit(judges camp)
Looney didn’t quit(judges camp)
Optimistic on Murphy(injured in camp)
They basically lost 3/5ths of the line and the primary backup after the statement.
Regardless the o line sucked.
Until now . . . . . maybe.
Link - ( New Window )
This brings to mind another question i have had on my mind. Best way to rebuild the o-line? Outside in, or inside out?
The thing that still amazes me is some posters watching the games and still having opinions like that was an excuse - "the Cincy OL was as bad as ours was"... lol
I am behind Schoen 100% and many of us are praising the moves but we still have to see them on the field. Gettleman had fixed the OL his 1st year many thought but we know how it turned out. I do believe that we upgraded in a big way and have said that but there is risk.
Sure, and I don't. I have some optimism based on what I saw under Shurmur. I actually mostly agree with what you posted in the 2022 DJ thread: that it does stand to reason that he plays better with a better OL and scheme. My guess is that he shows he's a Tannehill level starter. And we may have to live with that really until we have the opportunity to draft (or trade for) another guy.
Everything that happened last season was like watching a car crash in slow motion. You knew what was going to happen but you couldn't stop watching.
It started being obvious the second Lemieux got hurt and the vets retired early, a lot of people were saying it, and the Giants just wagged a finger and said "we know better".
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They need to find their three interior OL, given the vets with short deals and young prospects currently. OL isn't what I'd called fixed right now.
This brings to mind another question i have had on my mind. Best way to rebuild the o-line? Outside in, or inside out?
When you have the premium draft picks, and the value is even or better than other positions, get the tackles in place. You can absolutely find interior OL in other rounds, and the Quentin Nelsons are unicorns that rarely appear.
Teams must become sound at understanding a prospect's makeup with regards to want-to, character, how bad do they want it, etc. Being more effective at these criteria, in addition to the football talent, should enable them to find more success picking OL in non-premium rounds, as well as premium.
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Turned out to be ol' Dave's epitaph.
Everything that happened last season was like watching a car crash in slow motion. You knew what was going to happen but you couldn't stop watching.
It started being obvious the second Lemieux got hurt and the vets retired early, a lot of people were saying it, and the Giants just wagged a finger and said "we know better".
And then came the late trades, which look dreadful now.
He did better in drafting and UDFAs, but failed with Hernandez. Gates was a find. Most of us thought Peart should be a fit, untll the OL coach threw him under the bus.
Bad picks highlighted by bad coaching.
That was effin' comical in retrospect. He was the perfect front man for Mara Tech: obtuse and incompetent.
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Turned out to be ol' Dave's epitaph.
Everything that happened last season was like watching a car crash in slow motion. You knew what was going to happen but you couldn't stop watching.
It started being obvious the second Lemieux got hurt and the vets retired early, a lot of people were saying it, and the Giants just wagged a finger and said "we know better".
Hit nail on the head. A slow drawn out train-wreck where you know the rails ahead need to be replaced.
Much like Gettleman himself...
If Thomas' health cooperates and the Giants hit on Neal, they have a leg up in how they build and sustain the OL. You can find and develop the interior guys later in the draft much easier than OT. They can look at the tackles as their cornerstone pieces and afford to wait on interior guys in future drafts. It gives them flexibility.
I am behind Schoen 100% and many of us are praising the moves but we still have to see them on the field. Gettleman had fixed the OL his 1st year many thought but we know how it turned out. I do believe that we upgraded in a big way and have said that but there is risk.
In my view, failure is worse than neglect.
I am behind Schoen 100% and many of us are praising the moves but we still have to see them on the field. Gettleman had fixed the OL his 1st year many thought but we know how it turned out. I do believe that we upgraded in a big way and have said that but there is risk.
Look at any given year. The problem with gettleman was the capital used to invest in addressing the offensive line and the amount of players brought in to compete.
The giants will have 14 to 15 players coming in to training camp to compete for roster spots. In previous years we had 9-10 players going into training camp.
With limited cap, schoen has brought in 6 free agents and 3 drafted players. I'm not saying that they are all going to work out, but they will all compete and compete at multiple positions. If someone gets injured, we aren't left scrounging to find a replacement through desperate trades or waiver claims as it was with gettleman.
In previous years we had hal hunter, marc Columbo (who worked with top drafted players). Who did he ever develop? And a college coach rob sale.
I am behind Schoen 100% and many of us are praising the moves but we still have to see them on the field. Gettleman had fixed the OL his 1st year many thought but we know how it turned out. I do believe that we upgraded in a big way and have said that but there is risk.
Schoen this year did *far* more for the line than Gettleman did in 2018. Gettleman had no backup plans, as Eric points out. Schoen signed multiple linemen for depth and drafted three in the first year.
An *actual* focus on the offensive line in 2018 would have included trading down in the draft, drafting Quenton Nelson as well as a Day 2 offensive lineman. The Colts did that: they traded down, took Nelson in the first, Braden Smith in the second, and both are now top OLs. The Giants hoped that a free agent binge and a second rounder would be enough; it wasn't.
Peart, Lemieux, Brederson, et al vs. the 2022 crop of (young ) OL additions, specifically how diligent and effective their work is on improving strength/hand usage/footwork is a sub-chapter of this season that will be as interesting as wins and losses. Attitude plays so much of a part in that.
Payoff for 2023+ is potentially huge. Really looking forward to seeing how it plays out and if they are doing better at finding better 'people'.
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Turned out to be ol' Dave's epitaph.
At the time of the quote:
Peart did not have back injuries(occurred in June after draft)
Lemieux was healthy(injured August)
Gates was not injured(week 2)
Fulton didn’t quit(judges camp)
Looney didn’t quit(judges camp)
Optimistic on Murphy(injured in camp)
They basically lost 3/5ths of the line and the primary backup after the statement.
Regardless the o line sucked.
Regardless that O line was fucking putrid. Indefensible.
Ravens 1st, Rothlisberger’s first and Russel Wilson’s first all contradict this.
This is true.
I think that was also part of the reason they drafted Wan'Dale a little early and did not risk losing him. They want Daboll to have the personnel to run his offense and see what Jones can do.
That's why its important for Jones to get off to a good start.
If this team starts 1-5 or something like that, Jones will be benched
Absolutely, the refreshing difference is the new regime's resolve not to let history repeat itself on the interior by carrying around one basket of eggs. This group seems better equipped at developing contingency plans.
Neal has to be an upgrade over Solder / Peart. That tandem struggled and was bottome 3 in the league.
The OC has to be better even though it isn't much better, perhaps?
The OG should be better with Indy UFA signing, return of Lemiuex and other bodies.
Overall, DG didn't bring in enough quality help and signing Solder to such big money back-fired. I get why we did at the time but big money UFA's are often not worth it.
We don't know how last year's free agents like Looney would have panned out. But I doubt any NFL team could have survived the number of losses on the offensive line due to injury and retirement.
Usually followed by getting shouted at by a certain contingent here.
Pair of former Giants rip Dave Gettleman after loss to Bears: ‘Atrocious’ By Ryan Dunleavy - January 2, 2022 - ( New Window )
For any semblance of success, we needed several unlikely absolute best-case scenarios. To the surprise of few, none of that happened. Between the injuries, retirements, and desperation trades we were left with a tire fire.
There was no Plan B. There was no backup. Just pitiful resource management and team-building from a pompous, condescending jackass who thought he knew a hell of a lot more than he really did.
Neal has to be an upgrade over Solder / Peart. That tandem struggled and was bottome 3 in the league.
The OC has to be better even though it isn't much better, perhaps?
The OG should be better with Indy UFA signing, return of Lemiuex and other bodies.
Overall, DG didn't bring in enough quality help and signing Solder to such big money back-fired. I get why we did at the time but big money UFA's are often not worth it.
I trust Nick Gates and think he's a better player. Feliciano is more of a borderline starter but they don't have a ton of realistic options at C.
I really think Glowinski, Lemieux, and Garcia can probably be serviceable at LG/RG.
I think Giants fans are going to love this guy.
So yes, don't sleep on him. (Famous last words).
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Sorry...couldn't resist.
I think Giants fans are going to love this guy.
So yes, don't sleep on him. (Famous last words).
I was encouraged after reading the BBV article about him, and the influence Rodney Hudson had on him. I'm hoping he turns into another O'Hara, a Guard who signed with us so he could play Center.
Anyway, it's not like we made a long-term commitment to him. Best case, he does a good job and sticks around for a couple of years. Worst case, we sign a UFA OC next year or look to upgrade in the draft.
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They basically lost 3/5ths of the line and the primary backup after the statement.
We don't know how last year's free agents like Looney would have panned out. But I doubt any NFL team could have survived the number of losses on the offensive line due to injury and retirement.
Injuries and retirements surely played a factor, but the giants weren't left with any options at all. That's why I pointed out how many players Joe schoen has brought in this year compared to previous years.
Fulton and Looney retired prior to the 1st preseason game. Looney signed late july and retired early August.
The giants went in to training camp content with their penciled in starters and banked on that every year, which is why they scrambled to acquire players.
If the prior regime was here, they would have made a free agent signing like Glowinski and drafted Neal and said they were done. They would have put all their eggs in the basket of gates returning and Lemieux coming back with very little to no options for any problems.
Joe schoen brought in 10 players. More offensive line players in one off season than Gettleman brought in any one of his 4 years here. The most players gettleman brought in 1 year was 6 (2021) and 2 of those players were late trades due to injury / retirement. The 10 players schoen brought in are half of the total players gettleman brought in 4 combined seasons. They brought in players that can play multiple positions and they will be moving them around to see where they best fit.
There will be competition for roster spots and they will have options if someone should struggle, get injured or retire.
They are not done addressing the offensive line by any means, but the emphasis they have made to not only put resources in via the draft but also free agency is encouraging considering how it was viewed in the past.
“It’s really apparent that we have a little more confidence in our offensive linemen than you guys do. So I’m just going to say we’re happy with the group that we have."
right...
The team building approach under Gettleman never made any sense. Last year, everyone got a taste of what the playoffs could be like after finishing 6-10, and dipped into 2022 to build a flawed roster which went 4-13.
I like the approach thus far.
Outstanding starts at OT, Bredeson solid pro; Nick Gates - the heartbreak.
All the rest- mostly Bills throw-aways, gotta start somewhere. We're one draft away.