In his pre-draft evaluation of Daniel Jones, Sy'56 compared him, physically, to Ryan Tannehill, so I'm going to use Tannehill as a benchmark, with the understanding that statistically he's been a better QB than Jones in their respective first four years.
Can you field a competitive team with a Ryan Tannehill at the helm? Absolutely, provided every other facet of your team is strong, or at least above average. Good skill players, good offensive line, good defense and special teams. You'll be competitive. You might even make the playoffs, either by winning your division or as a wild card, if you can stay relatively healthy and get a favorable bounce or two as the season progresses.
Can you field a championship team, though? Probably not, and therein lies the dilemma. The proverbial "game manager" can keep a good team competitive, provided it stays good, but the odds are he won't be able to elevate that team to a championship level. In today's NFL, you need a QB with elite-level skill to do that.
Daniel Jones may be good enough to keep the Giants out of the cellar with a good, strong supporting cast around him, but I doubt he'll ever be able to put the team on his back, if need be, and carry it to The Promised Land.
If all you want is to not be a complete joke, you can keep him and build around him as best you can. If you want to add another Lombardi Trophy or two, you move on, and replace him as soon as you can, "by any means necessary," with a much, much better QB.
Whining? Moi?
It seems to me that the ones doing the most whining are those that don't want to hear any criticism of their beloved "Danny Dimes."
My big boy pants are on, and they fit just fine. I imagine you have trouble pulling yours up with all of the excuses for Jones in your pockets.
It's like comparing stats of players. There is so much more to it. Eli won 2 SB's but was not a "Fantasy QB" dream because of the offense he played in. How many Super Bowls did Brees win with his Fantasy football stats?
I want to see DJ succeed because that means we are that much closer to returning to championship football. We don't have to take another chance on another QB, and maybe sticking with that one too long because the new brass doesn't want to admit failure.
So far we know nothing from this new management group.
This DJ subject has been beaten to death. Let's let it play out.
We all act like JS and BD are some perennial championship football leaders. That they have done this before. They have won nothing in my mind. To me the jury is out on them too.
What did Coughlin used to say? Talk is cheap, play the game.
When given the time DJ makes great throws unfortunately that has not been that often. If it doesn't work out this year next year is a much stronger class than this one. After a while these threads do get old.
But I think the comp is still valid, used as a benchmark for a certain level of talent. Peak Jones is comparable to Peak Tannehill, in my opinion. Good, but not quite good enough.
college qb - ( New Window )
Each has an offense tailored to what they can do. Some need less tailoring - Brady and Rodgers, some need more - Mahomes and Jackson. (Mahomes can do both)
Why did Jones play much better under Shurmur and so poorly under Judge? Shurmur could tailor an offense for Jones while Garrett could not. Shurmur could hide Jones deficiencies making reads, Garrett did not. Under Shurmur Jones problems were turnovers(mainly fumbling) and injury.
I do not think Jones is the answer, but with Daboll and Kafka, I fully expect that Jones will be placed in a position where his skills will be utilized correctly. Does that mean Jones turns the corner? I doubt it. But I do think the offense will at least be able to move the ball and score. Will it be enough for consistent wins? No. But they should be at least competitive in most games.
But I think the comp is still valid, used as a benchmark for a certain level of talent. Peak Jones is comparable to Peak Tannehill, in my opinion. Good, but not quite good enough.
I hear you, but Tannerhill was never in the position that DJ was in early in his career.
Physical traits they are not even the same. DJ is a better deep ball thrower and a better overall athlete.
The only physical trait they share is they are tall lanky white guys.
But DJ is throwing up 90lb dumb bells in presses. That is not easy to do. Kind of reminds me of Simms when he started working out after all his injuries in the beginning of his career.
How many LB's were compared to the next LT? or the next whoever. They are never right because each payer is unique. One of a kind.
This rebuild will take some time. I’m just hoping for a competitive team this season.
This rebuild will take some time. I’m just hoping for a competitive team this season.
You'll probably get it, although there will no doubt be some growing pains, especially in the Secondary if Bradberry doesn't come back.
Anyway, I could say I'd just leave it up to Schoen and Daboll to find that "much, much better QB" if they want to move on from Jones, but I wonder about John Mara's influence. I've said before that they're going to have to drag him away from Jones kicking and screaming, and I still believe that's going to be the case.
If they think he can be the long term solution, then they will sign him to a new deal.
If they don't, they move on.
Where is the dilemma?
Hard for me to come up with a championship QB who did not have some really talented players along for the ride.
Assessing the Giants QB situation on a Giants message board isn't whining. It's food for thought and fuel for debate. If you can't understand that then you might want to reassess your own wardrobe, because it appears that your pants don't fit the "big boy" category at all.
If they think he can be the long term solution, then they will sign him to a new deal.
If they don't, they move on.
Where is the dilemma?
For me it's John Mara's influence. It's getting a good, but not great year from Jones and sticking with him because of that. It's settling for good, but not great, when great should be sought for the position.
me personally, DJ has never put up the numbers - at any level of competition - to suggest he can compete with the best in this league. the odds of him having an NFL elite QB a ha moment at this stage in his career are astronomically low. he doesn’t have good vision in the pocket. he has poor instincts with the ball in his hands. he shrinks in the red zone. QBs don’t come back from that.
at the end of the day, he hasn’t been extended and he has one year left to prove he can be the guy (not just Tannehill). we’ll get our answer soon enough.
Mike Groh has a lot of experience coaching WRs. Bobby Johnson has 3 years experience as OL coach at Buffalo. For the rest, pro experience level is like Judge’s staff. Even Kafka only has 2 years experience as passing game coordinator. Most of the rest have college experience, “assistant coach” experience, or maybe 1 year experience at the position they are coaching.
That is bullshit. If Schoen thinks it is time for a new QB, Mara will say nothing and do nothing. Schoen just turned down the 5th year option on Jones. That means Jones is one foot out the door - didn't hear anything about Mara complaining. While Mara may have an affinity for some players and would like to keep them, that does not mean Schoen needs to do so.
Everything said about JM this off season proved to be wrong. Why continue saying these things?
Hard for me to come up with a championship QB who did not have some really talented players along for the ride.
Eli in 2011 put the team on his back, with a dynamic trio of WR's, a defense that came into its own down the stretch, but an almost non-existent rushing attack. He was challenged to prove he was elite and he met that challenge.
The challenge for Jones is to prove that he's competent, which is a pretty low bar.
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....... but I wonder about John Mara's influence. I've said before that they're going to have to drag him away from Jones kicking and screaming, and I still believe that's going to be the case.
That is bullshit. If Schoen thinks it is time for a new QB, Mara will say nothing and do nothing. Schoen just turned down the 5th year option on Jones. That means Jones is one foot out the door - didn't hear anything about Mara complaining. While Mara may have an affinity for some players and would like to keep them, that does not mean Schoen needs to do so.
Everything said about JM this off season proved to be wrong. Why continue saying these things?
Not picking up Jones' 5th year option was the smart move, but I don't think it was definitive when it comes to how John Mara feels about him.
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"putting his team on his back?" I'd be interested to know the detail to this.
Hard for me to come up with a championship QB who did not have some really talented players along for the ride.
Eli in 2011 put the team on his back, with a dynamic trio of WR's, a defense that came into its own down the stretch, but an almost non-existent rushing attack. He was challenged to prove he was elite and he met that challenge.
The challenge for Jones is to prove that he's competent, which is a pretty low bar.
Agree that year was Eli's best with all the comebacks, but as you said, he had three dynamic WRs. Jones has none and never did have any...
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"putting his team on his back?" I'd be interested to know the detail to this.
Hard for me to come up with a championship QB who did not have some really talented players along for the ride.
Eli in 2011 put the team on his back, with a dynamic trio of WR's, a defense that came into its own down the stretch, but an almost non-existent rushing attack. He was challenged to prove he was elite and he met that challenge.
The challenge for Jones is to prove that he's competent, which is a pretty low bar.
Pretty true for all the champion QB's. Lots of talented players around them and I agree with the team components you mentioned for he Eli in 2011.
Eli was pretty much always a outstanding QB. The elite level is another I often question. What Eli was elite in was courage and playing big when needed most in addition to outstanding QB skills imv.
When I said "by any means necessary," I was talking about next year, either in free agency or preferably in the draft.
Not picking up Jones' 5th year option was the smart move, but I don't think it was definitive when it comes to how John Mara feels about him.
That is not the point you made. Mara likes a lot of players. That does not mean he will intervene with cutting them. If Schoen decides Jones is not the guy they need, Jones will be let go. JM may personally like Jones, but he won't interfere and he won't be kicking and screaming.
Sure, if the talent is really good that seems like a fair take on Jones. The bigger issue then becomes cost. The rookie QB contract has proved the best path for teams winning SB's percentage wise by a large margin. I think they wind up resetting it.
However, I don't believe just because a coach is good, they can make any player a champion. Especially a QB. It's much too important of a position to just be average. I feel it's the combination of the right player for the right staff. Daboll had it with Allen in Buffalo. Jones is not even close to Allen. He is close to Tannehill, who will never win you a championship IMO. I think the Titans know that by now.
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In comment 15701832 section125 said:
Not picking up Jones' 5th year option was the smart move, but I don't think it was definitive when it comes to how John Mara feels about him.
That is not the point you made. Mara likes a lot of players. That does not mean he will intervene with cutting them. If Schoen decides Jones is not the guy they need, Jones will be let go. JM may personally like Jones, but he won't interfere and he won't be kicking and screaming.
Cap, his QB is not like any other player, especially if the QB is Eli Manning 2.0 in his mind (and I believe that to be the case). He's said the Giants haven't done right by Jones, and he's probably correct, which is why I believe that he's going to have to be shown that even "doing right" and surrounding him with a stronger supporting cast, won't be enough to warrant keeping him around.
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We can win with him with talent around him. But he isn’t going ti elevate the team so in years where there are injuries or not good talent around him, well we’ve already seen that.
Sure, if the talent is really good that seems like a fair take on Jones. The bigger issue then becomes cost. The rookie QB contract has proved the best path for teams winning SB's percentage wise by a large margin. I think they wind up resetting it.
While his own injuries and the fumbling issue has held him back from a good measure of evaluation, he’s had declining talent around him every year since he’s been here.
Presumably better coaching, better talent around him this year, will presumably let us know if he can elevate a team. If his injuries or fumbles continue, or if he is not scene as anything more than a Tannehill, we’ll be picking one of the 3-6 QBs that should be available in the ‘23 draft.
As I’ve said, I’m in the vast minority that believes he’s more Dimes than Pennies.
We’ll find out either way.
a curse in that fans - and perhaps the owner himself! - think that’s the business model to shoot for.
Pretty sure Andrew Thomas was the best player on offense last year.
Cap, his QB is not like any other player, especially if the QB is Eli Manning 2.0 in his mind (and I believe that to be the case). He's said the Giants haven't done right by Jones, and he's probably correct, which is why I believe that he's going to have to be shown that even "doing right" and surrounding him with a stronger supporting cast, won't be enough to warrant keeping him around.
Meh. They absolutely have not done right by him. But I do not think it will matter. I do not see the signs of redzone success or making that crucial 2 minute drive to win.
Mara has gotten his head handed to him enough in the past 5 years, that he will finally accept reality(well I hope so).
If they think he can be the long term solution, then they will sign him to a new deal.
If they don't, they move on.
Where is the dilemma?
Same, it’s pretty cut and dry at this point.
Do you give him a four year extension and pay him $30M per year? Given three years of his production, what does he need to do in year 4 for you to say “our QB question is answered?” Do you franchise or transition tag him and pay him $20M on year to year contracts and kick the decision down the road?
In my mind, the only way you even consider talking about retaining him is if he can show top 10 production this year. He is being paid fairly on his rookie contract for what he produces. He hasn’t earned any kind of raise of commitment until his game transforms dramatically. The time for him to show progress or improvement is over. This year he is only about franchise QB production.
Jones has the right temperament, and athleticism for the position, but the biggest problem with him has been pocket awareness and processing time of what’s going on around him. Some QBs just have that innate ability, and he doesn’t IMO. That said, I think they will be the scheme to his strengths and get the ball out of his hands quicker to give him that chance to succeed.
I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t think Jones is any good so as to not be accused of being a “Jones lover”. But at the same time, I cannot figure out why fans keep repeating this line of everything has to be perfect for Jones. Perfect? Wtf? How about giving him everything just average? Hell, how about simply everything slightly below average? I’d settle for that! Or how about just giving him SOMETHING average. Anything. His OL has been a dumpster fire. So has the WR group, And the coaching. These three things couldn’t be any worse than they have been. There’s an enormous gap between everything needing to be perfect and what he’s had to work with.
These aren’t excuses. They are facts. Like I said, I still don’t think he’s the answer, but completely ignoring the shitty ass situation he’s had is disingenuous. At best.
If there is an upgrade option you find it.
There wasn’t this year so we are hoping he develops. That was even with two elite draft picks.
Now we wait another year and hope we see development or cut ties.
Nothing available this year that was a major upgrade from Jones. That may be sad but it’s true.
Isn’t that the dilemma?
Jones is a Much better athlete? In what world? Ryan Tannehill was a WR for most of his college career. He is an exceptional athlete.
Sorry you feel that way.
Linked below is a conversation between Pat Traina and an Oregon Ducks blogger about Kayvon Thibodeaux. I hope that makes the day a little brighter for you.
Link - ( New Window )
But how many times has the guy just simply missed open receivers when he was not under duress? How many times has he taken a check down when a play was there to be made? How many times does he need to lower his head into a LB 3 yards down the field on 3rd and 12 and missed games?
“There is not a quick mind here.”
-Sy in his draft summary of Jones before we took him
That statement is the primary reason why so many suggest everything needs to be perfect for Jones. The game has to be made very simple for him. I expect we will see a spread offense this year that is designed to help Jones with pre-snap reads so that he is thinking less in the pocket. He has the physical tools to be an NFL QB. The biggest flaw in his game is between his ears, and it has been there since college.
As far as doing something immediately at the QB position, there really is no viable option but to wait and draft one next year. Paying a Kings Ransom for a QB for 2022 doesn't make sense.
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Same shit, different day
Sorry you feel that way.
Linked below is a conversation between Pat Traina and an Oregon Ducks blogger about Kayvon Thibodeaux. I hope that makes the day a little brighter for you. Link - ( New Window )
Thanks, I've already seen it.
Go ahead an continue your DJ bitching and whining.
And, before you jump to conclusions, like you have already done, I'm not DJ fan. Just tired of of all the complaining and crying on this board over the SAME SHIT.
there's a lot of teams with a dilemma.
I think that approach is flawed. There simply aren't a lot of elite QBs around, and it's rare that one is available, either through the draft at your spot, or through FA.
What can be reasonably expected is to find a good one. IF DJ turns in a good season, you look to re-sign him. The dilemma is whether one season is enough to lock in big resources on him. I think he'd need to turn in a great season to pass on looking to upgrade. See below for what having a good season does for opportunity to upgrade. Good enough to show promise is not good enough, in my book.
If you have a so-so QB, and have a chance to upgrade, you do so. No dilemma. The problem is that such QBs tend to get you to middle of the pack draft position, and good QB prospects don't drop that low.
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In comment 15701880 ZogZerg said:
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Same shit, different day
Sorry you feel that way.
Linked below is a conversation between Pat Traina and an Oregon Ducks blogger about Kayvon Thibodeaux. I hope that makes the day a little brighter for you. Link - ( New Window )
Thanks, I've already seen it.
Go ahead an continue your DJ bitching and whining.
And, before you jump to conclusions, like you have already done, I'm not DJ fan. Just tired of of all the complaining and crying on this board over the SAME SHIT.
Why are you yelling? Don't like the thread? Then don't read it. There's certainly no need to reply to it if you're that tired of the subject. Maybe lay off the caffeine for a while? Hey, I'm just trying to help.
there's a lot of teams with a dilemma.
It is league-wide problem. Look at the Superbowl QBs for past 10 years. Yes, there are a couple dogs in there, but they are either top 5 QBs or guys that had one crazy good year
Anyone who thinks Jones was the Giants’ best player last year literally doesn’t know what they are talking about.
He is terrible
Go somewhere else then
That would be some defensive performance to carry Jones to a Super Bowl victory
Stafford had an insanely good year last year
The dilemma was probably 2 or 3 years ago.
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The last decade has seen wins by Joe Flacco, the corpse of Peyton Manning, and Nick Foles (puke). Even Stafford last year is arguable.
Stafford had an insanely good year last year
He sure did, but is he "elite"? Maybe he is. But the other guys sure weren't.
I’m hoping at this point next season there will be a new QB under center, and we will all be brimming with excitement. Not a Jones hater on a personal level, I just haven’t seen any evidence that he’ll turn things around enough to even compare with Tannehill.
Just looking at the last 10 years (which I think is fair) are you suggesting that; Joe Flacco, Nick Foles, and Matthew Stafford are Elite? Cam Newton, Ryan, Goff, Garoppolo, and Kaepernick all made it to the SB. Are they "Elite" as well or do we only count SB wins?
Look, you do need a great QB but even if the Giants could get that great QB, they will do nothing behind a badly coached, below-average talent, and often injured supporting cast. Fact: No veteran elite QB can overcome the Giants' past deficiencies and no rookie QB can develop in the same situation. This makes the entire "replace Jones now" argument mute. Why do people keep bringing this up?
They haven't played a game yet under this new regime, players, etc. Until they show an at least average game plan, pass blocking, run blocking, healthy receiving core, receivers that can get open (separation), and maybe actually win 50/50 balls at least 50% of the time, this constant argument is pointless
I'm not saying Jones is the future at QB. I'm not saying Jones isn't the future at QB. I'm saying,
"Stop putting the cart before the horse"!
At the end of the season, if they decide to move on, then they have to figure out what to do. I'm sure they've discussed options (there's a reason they signed Tyrod for 2 years).
Until then, there's no point in handwringing about it, even though a bunch of you will never stop.
Tannehill also had a lot less time playing the position and entered the NFL older because he'd been a WR convert, but he and Jones both seemed to check all the same tangible boxes. if you compare Jones to tannehill's miami stats it's very comparable - qb rtg, y/a, comp%, QBR, number of coaches/OCs cycled through.
Tannehill is not a guy i'd want to have under contract long term but i think there's still some chance Jones is better if maximized in a system better than he has been to date. age 25 Tannehill isn't a player i'd totally give up on. the current situation with jones is perfectly reasonable for a team heading in a new direction. 1 year to show he can lead that way or he can't.
on what planet can any realistic evaluation be given.
O-line which can neither support a running game nor give time to survey the field.
No WRs providing superior quantity or quality of catches.
No red zone reliable go-to, run or pass.
Least creative OC in the history of mankind (but would probably win if he had positional superiority across the field).
Given the above, give a realistic evaluation of Brady.
If he plays well and shows the potential to be a franchise QB he will be the Giants QB moving forward.
It is really quite simple.
There will be no grey area.
There are a lot of good options in the draft next year, so the Giants will be in a great position to find Jones successor next year.
Give me Daniel Jones, or give me death! 4/18/2019 - ( New Window )
If he plays well and shows the potential to be a franchise QB he will be the Giants QB moving forward.
It is really quite simple.
There will be no grey area.
There are a lot of good options in the draft next year, so the Giants will be in a great position to find Jones successor next year.
I agree but there is grey area.
How “well” does a QB have to play to warrant big cash? How much is the franchise tag for a QB? A ton right? How much would it cost to extend him? Still a ton right? I don’t want to dedicate big money to a guy who played “well” for a season. You’d be falling into a trap, I think. That’s the only uncertainty I see.
We're so used to Eli being so durable. I'd pass on Jones at this point no matter what. He could be good this year, but we would always need a good backup because of his injury history.
I think he'll improve this year, but he's a place holder until the Giants get a better QB in 2023 or 2024.
Is Klaatu even whining? It’s a Giants message board and it’s the off-season. Chill. You don’t have to click on these posts if it bothers you so much. Start a post about something else if you want to talk about something else. Klaatu has been around here a long time, and I rarely see him whine.
Since talking about it won't change anything, may as well just shut the forum down, or make it NFT only until the season starts
I know but it’s the offseason. There isn’t a ton to talk about that hasn’t already been talked about.
HA! That was a good one.
Just remember, though, in the draft pick thread I said that was supposed to be a joke, and shortly after Jones was drafted I was so pissed I wrote a song about it.
The Day The Hamster Died. - ( New Window )
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your tannehill reference inspired an archives search that led here. this thread was a couple weeks before Sy posted his QB profile, shout out to Arc who was the first to mention Tannehill. Was a pretty good discussion of Jones before he was the pick both pro and con. wherever he is hope all's well with Bill2, his posts about OL ended up foreboding. Give me Daniel Jones, or give me death! 4/18/2019 - ( New Window )
HA! That was a good one.
Just remember, though, in the draft pick thread I said that was supposed to be a joke, and shortly after Jones was drafted I was so pissed I wrote a song about it. The Day The Hamster Died. - ( New Window )
yeah i wasn't posting that as any sort of gotcha everyone's comments were pretty reasonable even with hindsight other than the captain of the ryan finley express.
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In comment 15701966 Eric on Li said:
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your tannehill reference inspired an archives search that led here. this thread was a couple weeks before Sy posted his QB profile, shout out to Arc who was the first to mention Tannehill. Was a pretty good discussion of Jones before he was the pick both pro and con. wherever he is hope all's well with Bill2, his posts about OL ended up foreboding. Give me Daniel Jones, or give me death! 4/18/2019 - ( New Window )
HA! That was a good one.
Just remember, though, in the draft pick thread I said that was supposed to be a joke, and shortly after Jones was drafted I was so pissed I wrote a song about it. The Day The Hamster Died. - ( New Window )
yeah i wasn't posting that as any sort of gotcha everyone's comments were pretty reasonable even with hindsight other than the captain of the ryan finley express.
No, dude, I knew where you were coming from and I got a big laugh out of it.
Give it a rest, snapperhead. Whining about "whining" is...well...whining, don't you think?
Anyway, I can't play with you anymore. Gotta take a shower and get dressed.
Arrivederci!
For me it’s really simple I think you have to have a QB on your team where you say well the team may suck but our QB is making the most of it. Thank god we have that guy. Not this he’s our child and he’s underachieving in school and we are going to blame the teachers, his friends that are distracting him the system, etc. we bear no responsibility to Jones yet many of you act as if we do. He bears responsibility to US. And he’s been nothing short of a complete let down.
If you wonder why people are willing to go on these threads day after day and piss in your corn flakes as you perceive it to be. It’s because this kind of attitude will have many of you and our owner with the validation of the fans we know he deeply needs. Extent Jones because he’s “likable” not because he gives us the best chance to win. The funny think is Mara actually likes Jones maybe even loves him and that’s a real thing, the rest of you are just being manipulated by the same systems that had you believing DG was a good GM and many other lies the Giants wanted to sell you. Many of you let the personal feelings of the Mara’s become football truths for you. When are you going to wake up and realize this doesn’t help us?
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be perfect so we have a shot at advancing to the divisional round.
I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t think Jones is any good so as to not be accused of being a “Jones lover”. But at the same time, I cannot figure out why fans keep repeating this line of everything has to be perfect for Jones. Perfect? Wtf? How about giving him everything just average? Hell, how about simply everything slightly below average? I’d settle for that! Or how about just giving him SOMETHING average. Anything. His OL has been a dumpster fire. So has the WR group, And the coaching. These three things couldn’t be any worse than they have been. There’s an enormous gap between everything needing to be perfect and what he’s had to work with.
These aren’t excuses. They are facts. Like I said, I still don’t think he’s the answer, but completely ignoring the shitty ass situation he’s had is disingenuous. At best.
The receiver group Jones had to work with was often fine. he couldn't get the ball to them. He couldn't work with them when they were healthy.
Golladay, Shep, Toney, Slayton, Engram, Barkley may not be the best group in the league, but they were a pretty solid, professional group. And when they were on the field, Jones looked lost as ever. He is flustered, stares down receivers, holds the ball too long, etc etc.
2020 142 31
2019 139.0 26
Interestingly, these numbers are pretty in line with the Giants 2005-2010 with the exception of 2009. 2010 hit these with 10 wins but no playoffs. 2011 was a pretty unique year with that WR trio.
2013-2021 have not come close to these type of numbers.
Where Tanenhill gets hurt is not stepping up in the playoffs. This is where Eli did. Would have been nice if Jones had this type of support from the start. Perhaps a different perception of him but even so I think many would doubt his potential to step up playoff time. On a rookie contract you can live with that when your expensive....
None. Jones as starting QB with the Chiefs, Bucs, or Rams for a full year ... would maybe get you to .500 at best.
His physical conditioning has improved so much that he still misses games every year. The conditioning doesn't matter on the sideline.
No, Andrew Thomas was, followed by Xavier McKinney.
DJ is a bad starting QB in the NFL. He's not on Tannehill's level (not that Tannehill is even anything that great).
This is an interesting question. For us fans and for the giant sake, we hope Gettleman has gotten this right. If he’s wrong, then we have to find a new quarterback, and there’s no telling what slot we will be in next year to get a QB and who we will be selected in the draft. It’s not a guarantee that the new QB drafted will be a success. Not to mention that the FA quarterbacks out there will cost a hefty dollar to sign. I just really hope Daniel Jones succeeds. It’s one less position to worry about.
Ha! Zero, since Ryan Tannehill never played for the Giants. Fuckin’ got ‘em bro.
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In comment 15701819 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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be perfect so we have a shot at advancing to the divisional round.
I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t think Jones is any good so as to not be accused of being a “Jones lover”. But at the same time, I cannot figure out why fans keep repeating this line of everything has to be perfect for Jones. Perfect? Wtf? How about giving him everything just average? Hell, how about simply everything slightly below average? I’d settle for that! Or how about just giving him SOMETHING average. Anything. His OL has been a dumpster fire. So has the WR group, And the coaching. These three things couldn’t be any worse than they have been. There’s an enormous gap between everything needing to be perfect and what he’s had to work with.
These aren’t excuses. They are facts. Like I said, I still don’t think he’s the answer, but completely ignoring the shitty ass situation he’s had is disingenuous. At best.
The receiver group Jones had to work with was often fine. he couldn't get the ball to them. He couldn't work with them when they were healthy.
Golladay, Shep, Toney, Slayton, Engram, Barkley may not be the best group in the league, but they were a pretty solid, professional group. And when they were on the field, Jones looked lost as ever.
This is laughable. How many games did that group play together?
59 of 85 for 781 yds, 69.4%, 4 TDs, 0 Ints.
That was against ND (a playoff team) and BC.
In 2021 behind a poor OL DJ was:
208 of 374 for 2,246 yds, 55.6%, 9 TDs, 10 Ints.
He looked absolutely awful and his weaknesses were exposed and strengths negated.
Our DJ will still have weaknesses, but we have no idea what he will look like behind a good OL.
For me, the dilemma is that this season is pretty much h a waste of time with Jones. If he doesn't significantly improve, you don't re-sign him. If he gets worse, you don't re-sign him. If he's hurt again, you don't re-sign him. If he has a good, not great season, you don't re-sign him. If he has a very good, not great, season, they might, but I wouldn't re-sign him.
That leaves o the highly unlikely scenario that he elevates his game to an elite level. That is the only way, in my opinion, he earns a second contract here. So, there is almost no way he's back, in my estimation. So,what do we gain by playing him?
I feel the same way about Barkley. This is very likely the last year for both players.
I assume that was directed at me, but I'm afraid you misunderstood. What I was saying is that Foles, Flacco and the corpse of Peyton Manning were clearly NOT elite. And that it's questionable if Stafford could be considered elite (i.e. maybe he is, maybe he isn't). That does not in any way mean I think Stafford is in the same tier as those guys, just that he may not be in the same tier as Mahomes and Brady.
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think Matt Stafford is in the same tier as Flacco and Foles.
I assume that was directed at me, but I'm afraid you misunderstood. What I was saying is that Foles, Flacco and the corpse of Peyton Manning were clearly NOT elite. And that it's questionable if Stafford could be considered elite (i.e. maybe he is, maybe he isn't). That does not in any way mean I think Stafford is in the same tier as those guys, just that he may not be in the same tier as Mahomes and Brady.
Do you mean elite for a career or elite one year, to win the Superbowl? Because Stafford's 2021 was pretty darn good. If you are looking at entire career, Eli wasn't elite. He got hot at this right time twice
Jones had 10 TDs in 11 games with the offense scoring 18ppg. There is nothing "best" about that.
Our expectations are too low if posters would settle for Jones to be the level of Tannehill. It just puts too much pressure on the GM, HC, etc to build a team to support a game manager-QB. You have to have a very high hit rate at a lot of positions to give that game manager the best chance to succeed. And it's very difficult to sustain that success if you are fortunate enough to get there because of roster turnover and the economics of the game.
Does anybody seriously think that's a reasonable way to build a team? The QB is the CEO of the team on the field. If a company is being poorly led by a CEO after three years, you get rid of the CEO. And probably after year two.
Jones had 10 TDs in 11 games with the offense scoring 18ppg. There is nothing "best" about that.
Our expectations are too low if posters would settle for Jones to be the level of Tannehill. It just puts too much pressure on the GM, HC, etc to build a team to support a game manager-QB. You have to have a very high hit rate at a lot of positions to give that game manager the best chance to succeed. And it's very difficult to sustain that success if you are fortunate enough to get there because of roster turnover and the economics of the game.
Does anybody seriously think that's a reasonable way to build a team? The QB is the CEO of the team on the field. If a company is being poorly led by a CEO after three years, you get rid of the CEO. And probably after year two.
How many playoffs have the Titans reached with Tannehill as QB? Every year since he came from Miami on time to AFCC game...3 straight years.
Not bad. We all would have been happy reaching the playoff 3 straight years.
Just sayin'
He has good straight line speed but he is not quick and has no cutting ability or elusiveness.
You can call running plays for him a la Cam but he does not buy extra time in the pocket like Mahomes or Dak
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In comment 15702002 Producer said:
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think Matt Stafford is in the same tier as Flacco and Foles.
I assume that was directed at me, but I'm afraid you misunderstood. What I was saying is that Foles, Flacco and the corpse of Peyton Manning were clearly NOT elite. And that it's questionable if Stafford could be considered elite (i.e. maybe he is, maybe he isn't). That does not in any way mean I think Stafford is in the same tier as those guys, just that he may not be in the same tier as Mahomes and Brady.
Do you mean elite for a career or elite one year, to win the Superbowl? Because Stafford's 2021 was pretty darn good. If you are looking at entire career, Eli wasn't elite. He got hot at this right time twice
I guess I'm looking at it more in terms of career, although Manning doesn't fit into that narrative (he was just so broken down by that time). Really, I was just pushing back on the idea that you need an elite QB in order to win a Superbowl. Seems that it would have been best to just leave Stafford out of the discussion.
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think Matt Stafford is in the same tier as Flacco and Foles.
I assume that was directed at me, but I'm afraid you misunderstood. What I was saying is that Foles, Flacco and the corpse of Peyton Manning were clearly NOT elite. And that it's questionable if Stafford could be considered elite (i.e. maybe he is, maybe he isn't). That does not in any way mean I think Stafford is in the same tier as those guys, just that he may not be in the same tier as Mahomes and Brady.
Stafford is the fastest QB to 50,000 yards in NFL history and acknowledged by all observers to having an elite arm, all prior to joining the Rams. Basically, he was already on course to make the Hall of Fame. And then he wins a championship his first year with a good team.
Then you have this other concept of points scored and how this is just attributed to the QB. More foolishness and a conceptual lack of understanding of offensive football imv.
Recent SB Champion Rams
2018 32pts/game
2021 27pts/game
So is Goff a better QB than Stafford? No. Did he have better performances in the playoffs? Most probable. Was McVay a better big game coach and the defense better? Most certainly.
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Andrew Thomas was the best player on the offensive side of the ball in 2021.
Jones had 10 TDs in 11 games with the offense scoring 18ppg. There is nothing "best" about that.
Our expectations are too low if posters would settle for Jones to be the level of Tannehill. It just puts too much pressure on the GM, HC, etc to build a team to support a game manager-QB. You have to have a very high hit rate at a lot of positions to give that game manager the best chance to succeed. And it's very difficult to sustain that success if you are fortunate enough to get there because of roster turnover and the economics of the game.
Does anybody seriously think that's a reasonable way to build a team? The QB is the CEO of the team on the field. If a company is being poorly led by a CEO after three years, you get rid of the CEO. And probably after year two.
How many playoffs have the Titans reached with Tannehill as QB? Every year since he came from Miami on time to AFCC game...3 straight years.
Not bad. We all would have been happy reaching the playoff 3 straight years.
Just sayin'
Would you pay Ryan Tannehill near $40 million a year? Because thats where these contracts are for Quarterbacks. Now with that said, acknowledging DJ hasn’t even reached Tannehill’s status yet, would you give DJ the same contract if he has the Giants near .500 or even squeaks them into a wildcard? Off of a 1 year sample size, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t even gove that to Tannehill off of 3 years of postseason appearances. The goal is to win championships. These QBs aren’t congruent with that goal.
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Andrew Thomas was the best player on the offensive side of the ball in 2021.
Jones had 10 TDs in 11 games with the offense scoring 18ppg. There is nothing "best" about that.
Our expectations are too low if posters would settle for Jones to be the level of Tannehill. It just puts too much pressure on the GM, HC, etc to build a team to support a game manager-QB. You have to have a very high hit rate at a lot of positions to give that game manager the best chance to succeed. And it's very difficult to sustain that success if you are fortunate enough to get there because of roster turnover and the economics of the game.
Does anybody seriously think that's a reasonable way to build a team? The QB is the CEO of the team on the field. If a company is being poorly led by a CEO after three years, you get rid of the CEO. And probably after year two.
How many playoffs have the Titans reached with Tannehill as QB? Every year since he came from Miami on time to AFCC game...3 straight years.
Not bad. We all would have been happy reaching the playoff 3 straight years.
Just sayin'
The Titans are an outlier. And I love the way they play football. They have assembled a team that resembles '80s/'90s football. Legit smash mouth football with a real generational-type RB with Henry, who can pound between the tackles and turn the corner and get vertical. They are a terrific testament to Vrabel and his staff's ability to develop and Robinson's ability at their GM to find talent.
If you want to try and get to their level, it's going to take some serious drafting and player development outside of the QB.
Or we could find a great QB prospect who is a force multiplier and has the ability to lift a team.
Both are hard. But doing it the way of the Titans is very hard, especially if you want to win the Lombardi.
That's why I've said it's over for Jones. If he turns into a superstar this year he'll get paid, but that applies to every other player. If Niko Lalos plays like a superstar he'll get paid too.
What are the odds of that?
If you want to try and get to their level, it's going to take some serious drafting and player development outside of the QB.
Or we could find a great QB prospect who is a force multiplier and has the ability to lift a team.
Both are hard. But doing it the way of the Titans is very hard, especially if you want to win the Lombardi.
Hell of a lot easier to build a decent team then find a special QB.
That's why I've said it's over for Jones. If he turns into a superstar this year he'll get paid, but that applies to every other player. If Niko Lalos plays like a superstar he'll get paid too.
What are the odds of that?
Some here don’t like to hear it, but this is pretty much what it comes down to.
That's why I've said it's over for Jones. If he turns into a superstar this year he'll get paid, but that applies to every other player. If Niko Lalos plays like a superstar he'll get paid too.
What are the odds of that?
Not much. But I don't think they ever really considered picking up Jones's fifth year option. There is very little chance that Jones plays well enough to justify using the FT on him, not when it would cost $22M. He starts this year because we have no other option.
I like Jones. He works hard, has had no off the field issues, and he's a tough kid on the field. I'm also sympathetic to the fact that the Giants put a terrible team around him. He's easy to root for. I just don't think he's played well enough to be the future QB of the Giants, but obviously hope I'm wrong.
The most likely scenario is that he and Barkley will be gone after this season.
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If you want to try and get to their level, it's going to take some serious drafting and player development outside of the QB.
Or we could find a great QB prospect who is a force multiplier and has the ability to lift a team.
Both are hard. But doing it the way of the Titans is very hard, especially if you want to win the Lombardi.
Hell of a lot easier to build a decent team then find a special QB.
I don't know about that. These QBs are more precocious than ever. They are throwing it around like its backyard football at all levels before the NFL.
So, the talent is out there. You just need the right people to find it and the right people to develop it.
The discipline now is being honest with yourself as an organization and cutting bait if (1) your veteran QB is starting to slide or (2) the young QB isn't showing well after one or two years.
So, the talent is out there. You just need the right people to find it and the right people to develop it.
The discipline now is being honest with yourself as an organization and cutting bait if (1) your veteran QB is starting to slide or (2) the young QB isn't showing well after one or two years.
If the talent was out there, 20+ teams in the NFL wouldn't be starting the QBs they are.
Cutting a vet when he has a big contract is hard when eating $$$$. The non 1st round young guy is different.
I think Taylor is here in the event Jones can't run this offense. Jones may not be suited for the quick read offense we speculate is coming
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If that’s what Taylor is here for. If Jones somehow shows something early they’d look to deal him and turn it over to Taylor. I doubt it, but you never know.
I think Taylor is here in the event Jones can't run this offense. Jones may not be suited for the quick read offense we speculate is coming
Likely for injury reasons as Jones is frequently injured.
The only thing they DO know for certain is he's elevated the offense to some degree. That was obvious when Glennon & Fromm played.
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If you want to try and get to their level, it's going to take some serious drafting and player development outside of the QB.
Or we could find a great QB prospect who is a force multiplier and has the ability to lift a team.
Both are hard. But doing it the way of the Titans is very hard, especially if you want to win the Lombardi.
Hell of a lot easier to build a decent team then find a special QB.
You don't win anything with a decent team and no special QB. If you don't have a great QB you need an awesome team. And it's much harder to build a championship team without a great QB, than it is to find a great QB.
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In comment 15702103 bw in dc said:
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If you want to try and get to their level, it's going to take some serious drafting and player development outside of the QB.
Or we could find a great QB prospect who is a force multiplier and has the ability to lift a team.
Both are hard. But doing it the way of the Titans is very hard, especially if you want to win the Lombardi.
Hell of a lot easier to build a decent team then find a special QB.
You don't win anything with a decent team and no special QB. If you don't have a great QB you need an awesome team. And it's much harder to build a championship team without a great QB, than it is to find a great QB.
Not the point. I said it is easier to build a team, than find a top of the line QB. There is rarely more then 1 great QB per year, maybe 2.
Just because you guys created that narrative doesn’t mean it s true
Schoen said, "That would be a great problem to have."
They didn't pick up his option, and they signed Taylor for two seasons. That's pretty fucking clear what the plan is if you stop over analyzing it.
This is only tough, or a dilemma OUTSIDE of their building.
The Giants are NOT in win-now mode. Everyone on the planet sees they're rebuilding. Between the vet IOLs they brought in and the draft class, they've seemingly upgraded the OL a LOT (there was nowhere to go but up). They've got bookend OTs, veteran IOLs and a bunch of versatile rookie OLs to push them.
They've got a coach who has a "modern offense" mind (unlike Garrett), who wants to build around DJ's strengths, and doesn't want to play ultra conservative ball (like Judge). He may even get the most out of Barkley if Barkley can stay healthy.
They have some new weapons at RB, WR, and TE. They're doing everything in their power to set DJ up to succeed. They're on record saying they want to see "the best version of Jones." Unless they're decimated by injuries again, they're well on their way to setting that up.
It's very simple. Strive for the best. Plan for the worst. That's what they're doing. That's what they've already done, to the extent that they can.
If they give Jones every chance to succeed (the OL plays well, and the offense isn't decimated by injury) and he doesn't rise to the occasion, they'll move on.
And then yes, they'll likely have to give up a bunch of draft picks to move up to draft the next guy. So be it. And if they do that, Taylor can hold the fort.
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be perfect so we have a shot at advancing to the divisional round.
Just because you guys created that narrative doesn’t mean it s true
Who created that narrative? His performance hasn’t been good in 3 years, and I like the guy. People point to his rookie year and choose to ignore the turnovers. This has to be the make or break year. He gets a fat extension or they let him walk. No mans land where his supporters say “first year in Dabolls system, oline hasn’t had time to gel” excuses don’t fly anymore. Fair or unfair it’s shit or get off the pot time for dimes
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In comment 15701819 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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be perfect so we have a shot at advancing to the divisional round.
Just because you guys created that narrative doesn’t mean it s true
Who created that narrative? His performance hasn’t been good in 3 years, and I like the guy. People point to his rookie year and choose to ignore the turnovers. This has to be the make or break year. He gets a fat extension or they let him walk. No mans land where his supporters say “first year in Dabolls system, oline hasn’t had time to gel” excuses don’t fly anymore. Fair or unfair it’s shit or get off the pot time for dimes
well said. The excuses are ludicrous. A great professional athlete adjusts and shows glimpses of who he is. There are not many glimpses that Jones is anything but a subpar NFL QB who is inaccurate, easily flustered, inconsistent and robotic. Is is a zero percent chance that he can bloom into a great QB? No. But the odds are so low of him becoming elite that it is an improbable outcome that is no longer worth betting on.
Schoen said, "That would be a great problem to have."
They didn't pick up his option, and they signed Taylor for two seasons. That's pretty fucking clear what the plan is if you stop over analyzing it.
This is only tough, or a dilemma OUTSIDE of their building.
The Giants are NOT in win-now mode. Everyone on the planet sees they're rebuilding. Between the vet IOLs they brought in and the draft class, they've seemingly upgraded the OL a LOT (there was nowhere to go but up). They've got bookend OTs, veteran IOLs and a bunch of versatile rookie OLs to push them.
They've got a coach who has a "modern offense" mind (unlike Garrett), who wants to build around DJ's strengths, and doesn't want to play ultra conservative ball (like Judge). He may even get the most out of Barkley if Barkley can stay healthy.
They have some new weapons at RB, WR, and TE. They're doing everything in their power to set DJ up to succeed. They're on record saying they want to see "the best version of Jones." Unless they're decimated by injuries again, they're well on their way to setting that up.
It's very simple. Strive for the best. Plan for the worst. That's what they're doing. That's what they've already done, to the extent that they can.
If they give Jones every chance to succeed (the OL plays well, and the offense isn't decimated by injury) and he doesn't rise to the occasion, they'll move on.
And then yes, they'll likely have to give up a bunch of draft picks to move up to draft the next guy. So be it. And if they do that, Taylor can hold the fort.
Thank you.
I can only imagine the bashing of Simms if BBI was around with the same current cast of posters during Simm's first five seasons. They certainly would have wanted him gone.
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In comment 15702264 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15701819 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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be perfect so we have a shot at advancing to the divisional round.
Just because you guys created that narrative doesn’t mean it s true
Who created that narrative? His performance hasn’t been good in 3 years, and I like the guy. People point to his rookie year and choose to ignore the turnovers. This has to be the make or break year. He gets a fat extension or they let him walk. No mans land where his supporters say “first year in Dabolls system, oline hasn’t had time to gel” excuses don’t fly anymore. Fair or unfair it’s shit or get off the pot time for dimes
well said. The excuses are ludicrous. A great professional athlete adjusts and shows glimpses of who he is. There are not many glimpses that Jones is anything but a subpar NFL QB who is inaccurate, easily flustered, inconsistent and robotic. Is is a zero percent chance that he can bloom into a great QB? No. But the odds are so low of him becoming elite that it is an improbable outcome that is no longer worth betting on.
Did you guys notice any difference in the play of the team the last 6 games of the season without Jones?
You guys created the narrative!
Jones is 12-25 as a starter. He’s had awful games where his play prevented wins. The KC game last year was a prime example.
I don’t get all the loyalty to Jones. As Terps mentioned above, everything else Gettleman did was awful, but he nailed the Jones pick?
You want to pay Jones $20M plus per year if he shows “some” improvement this year? I don’t want this team in QB hell. I think the best thing for this franchise is Schoen/Daboll getting to pick their own guy next year.
If Jones sets the world on fire and the Giants go 12-5, I will be thrilled. Nothing has suggested that is remotely possible though.
Daniel Jones was the #6 overall pick. apparently now his measuring stick has been reduced to a backup QB/special teams over achiever. sadly for us, other teams expect to take future pro bowlers and all pros with a pick that high.
Schoen said, "That would be a great problem to have."
They didn't pick up his option, and they signed Taylor for two seasons. That's pretty fucking clear what the plan is if you stop over analyzing it.
This is only tough, or a dilemma OUTSIDE of their building.
The Giants are NOT in win-now mode. Everyone on the planet sees they're rebuilding. Between the vet IOLs they brought in and the draft class, they've seemingly upgraded the OL a LOT (there was nowhere to go but up). They've got bookend OTs, veteran IOLs and a bunch of versatile rookie OLs to push them.
They've got a coach who has a "modern offense" mind (unlike Garrett), who wants to build around DJ's strengths, and doesn't want to play ultra conservative ball (like Judge). He may even get the most out of Barkley if Barkley can stay healthy.
They have some new weapons at RB, WR, and TE. They're doing everything in their power to set DJ up to succeed. They're on record saying they want to see "the best version of Jones." Unless they're decimated by injuries again, they're well on their way to setting that up.
It's very simple. Strive for the best. Plan for the worst. That's what they're doing. That's what they've already done, to the extent that they can.
If they give Jones every chance to succeed (the OL plays well, and the offense isn't decimated by injury) and he doesn't rise to the occasion, they'll move on.
And then yes, they'll likely have to give up a bunch of draft picks to move up to draft the next guy. So be it. And if they do that, Taylor can hold the fort.
This is a good post, no matter which side of the aisle you sit on regarding Jones.
That being said, I think Jones is being setup for the chance to show what he's got with some talent around him. Neal and Thibodeaux, if they hit on these two, Jones has a shot. No 5th year is definitely the right move, lets see what he can do.
Jones is 12-25 as a starter. He’s had awful games where his play prevented wins. The KC game last year was a prime example.
I don’t get all the loyalty to Jones. As Terps mentioned above, everything else Gettleman did was awful, but he nailed the Jones pick?
You want to pay Jones $20M plus per year if he shows “some” improvement this year? I don’t want this team in QB hell. I think the best thing for this franchise is Schoen/Daboll getting to pick their own guy next year.
If Jones sets the world on fire and the Giants go 12-5, I will be thrilled. Nothing has suggested that is remotely possible though.
My take on Jones is not about loyalty to him. It s about believing he gives the Giants the best chance to win this season, a decision made by Dabol and Schoen indicate they came to this conclusion.
To another point being made on this thread, I ve admitted before Jones was overdrafted, that can’t be undone. You want to tell me moving on from Jones this season gets the Giants Allen or Herbert, all for it. Some posters keep trying to make the point that somehow we have to get # 6 value from Jones or he s a bust, not the way it works
As to Eli at the end, yes I was convinced the Giants couldn’t win with him anymore, I was right. When I get there with Jones I’ll be the same with him
Terps keeps making the point his past play has it locked in stone, that he s done. I ve been around sports enough to know the past is not always an absolute predictor of the future
You guys that are in a position of Giants cannot win with Jones must lose a lot of enthusiasm from r the coming season. As an NFL fan that s one of the worst places to be, knowing it s a throw away season until you get the right guy.
If Jones is what you guys say he is, we will all get there soon enough, not going there in May, going to remain optimistic.
Still don’t understand why optimism has become politically incorrect on this board
Also I don’t think I said pay Jones 20 million if he improves, kind of depends on the improvement
Those Dolphin teams were bad.
Next year there probably won’t be such a thing as a 20/M a year QB in the NFL. All of the multi-year starters not on a rookie deal will be 30-50M.
And then every other QB in the league (either on rookie deals or backups) is making 10M or less, except Winston (14M).
Realistically, Jones has to prove it this year, and if he doesn’t he’ll get franchised and have to prove it again. Unless you pay him 30M+ a year.
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In comment 15701871 BigBlueShock said:
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In comment 15701819 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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be perfect so we have a shot at advancing to the divisional round.
I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t think Jones is any good so as to not be accused of being a “Jones lover”. But at the same time, I cannot figure out why fans keep repeating this line of everything has to be perfect for Jones. Perfect? Wtf? How about giving him everything just average? Hell, how about simply everything slightly below average? I’d settle for that! Or how about just giving him SOMETHING average. Anything. His OL has been a dumpster fire. So has the WR group, And the coaching. These three things couldn’t be any worse than they have been. There’s an enormous gap between everything needing to be perfect and what he’s had to work with.
These aren’t excuses. They are facts. Like I said, I still don’t think he’s the answer, but completely ignoring the shitty ass situation he’s had is disingenuous. At best.
The receiver group Jones had to work with was often fine. he couldn't get the ball to them. He couldn't work with them when they were healthy.
Golladay, Shep, Toney, Slayton, Engram, Barkley may not be the best group in the league, but they were a pretty solid, professional group. And when they were on the field, Jones looked lost as ever.
This is laughable. How many games did that group play together?
I'd love to know the answer to this. Anyone know? I think the answer is 0. In fact there may have only been a game or two when they had 4 of that group available.
Those Dolphin teams were bad.
Tannehill's record with the dolphins was 42-46 in 6 years so they weren't as terrible as you remember despite 4 of the 6 years he started they were bottom 5 in ppg.
Tannehill in the 6 MIA years 62.8% comp, 6.7 y/a, 230 ypg, 87 qb rating, 4.7% td, 2.4% int
Jones through 3 years 62.8% comp, 6.3 y/a, 221 ypg, 84 qb rating, 3.5% td, 2.3% int
Next year there probably won’t be such a thing as a 20/M a year QB in the NFL. All of the multi-year starters not on a rookie deal will be 30-50M.
And then every other QB in the league (either on rookie deals or backups) is making 10M or less, except Winston (14M).
Realistically, Jones has to prove it this year, and if he doesn’t he’ll get franchised and have to prove it again. Unless you pay him 30M+ a year.
That is right. And only about 10-12 guys are in that $30M+ category I think (need to verify).
So does Jones have a QB makeup that you can see him in that upper category in his future? And on a consistent basis that you can put 4-5 years of a contract behind it?
Hard to say anything other than no.
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He is in the final year of his contract. The coaches and Joe schoen will evaluate if they consider him a long term solution or not.
If they think he can be the long term solution, then they will sign him to a new deal.
If they don't, they move on.
Where is the dilemma?
For me it's John Mara's influence. It's getting a good, but not great year from Jones and sticking with him because of that. It's settling for good, but not great, when great should be sought for the position.
So we're gonna ditch Jones if he's merely "good" in 2022? And define good? Is that 2005-2006 Eli? Worse? Better? Are we defining good but the number of wins the team has?
So if we go 10-7 and Jones has a 28 total TD type year, with let's say 5000 total yards or so...19 turnovers....we're gonna move on because we can do better?
It's not that simple.
This is why I was surprised they didn’t exercise the option if they didn’t cut him (I would have opted to cut him).
Jones isn’t going to come out and bomb. His floor is probably fringe starter. He’s not going to fall apart and prove he doesn’t belong.
If I had to guess, in 8 months we’re going to see a bunch of talk that: it was a new line, a bunch of new weapons, first year in the system, Barkley was injured yet again, Daboll and Kafka were getting there feet under them.
And the Giants will give Jones another year to prove it, instead of paying him 30M+.
"You guys that are in a position of Giants cannot win with Jones must lose a lot of enthusiasm from r the coming season. As an NFL fan that s one of the worst places to be, knowing it s a throw away season until you get the right guy."
It's a downer that Jones is the QB again. It's a near certainty that he's gone after the year, so what is the point of giving him snaps? I'd rather see those snaps go to Lewerke on the small chance he shows enough that he might be a tradeable asset or even a consideration as a starter in 2023.
Right now we're not advancing anywhere at the quarterback position. We're just killing time until the next draft.
This is why I was surprised they didn’t exercise the option if they didn’t cut him (I would have opted to cut him).
Jones isn’t going to come out and bomb. His floor is probably fringe starter. He’s not going to fall apart and prove he doesn’t belong.
If I had to guess, in 8 months we’re going to see a bunch of talk that: it was a new line, a bunch of new weapons, first year in the system, Barkley was injured yet again, Daboll and Kafka were getting there feet under them.
And the Giants will give Jones another year to prove it, instead of paying him 30M+.
giving Jones another year at that point will mean franchise tag ..... 40M+ ....... not likely
This is why I was surprised they didn’t exercise the option if they didn’t cut him (I would have opted to cut him).
Jones isn’t going to come out and bomb. His floor is probably fringe starter. He’s not going to fall apart and prove he doesn’t belong.
If I had to guess, in 8 months we’re going to see a bunch of talk that: it was a new line, a bunch of new weapons, first year in the system, Barkley was injured yet again, Daboll and Kafka were getting there feet under them.
And the Giants will give Jones another year to prove it, instead of paying him 30M+.
I think they made the right call in how they played it with him. You can use the tag in the same capacity as the 5th year, it'll just cost you a little more. I don't think that contingent 7-8m difference is worth locking in to find yourself in a Mayfied/Darnold situation next year.
If we're discussing best case with Jones, he balls out maybe sneaks into one of those replacement pro bowl spots, he's likely playing on a tag. Maybe they can work out a team friendly deal with outs but he'll still have a juiced up AAV. It would be great if there was a 20m/yr tier there but unless Jones' camp would be willing to set a precedent, it's a tricky spot.
I agree, I think Jones is a poor starter but there's a lot to look forward to even if it's not going to show up in the wins column yet.
BUT also from a FO standpoint.
I am very pleased to see Jints Central move on from some dead weight up there.
Philly won with a backup QB.
I want a new QB more than likely and it's okay to wait one year before going aggressive with a QB.
If by luck DJ is good then that is fine too.
Philly won with a backup QB.
I want a new QB more than likely and it's okay to wait one year before going aggressive with a QB.
If by luck DJ is good then that is fine too.
You mean two team's that decided their QBs weren't good enough and have replaced them?
Jones ceiling is the kind of QB that even of he's good, you still need to upgrade from because he's not good enough.
To either over-coddle Jones or protect his fragile ego the Giants have refused to bring in any kind of competition. Even this year when picking a young QB would have made tons of sense they didn't. People take that to mean there is something in Jones play that JS and BD have seen but it really is just a sign of the way they do this estate planning.
SF and Philly for many years have had 2nd and 3rd options waiting in the wings because that is what smart teams do with the most valuable position on the field. Even when QBs have shown MUCH more than Jones it makes sense to have both a veteran QB and a young up and comer waiting in the wings.
What you have identified as being able to win with a lesser QB I would 100% attribute to a modern strategy of risk diversification. SF is a prime example, having Jimmy G ready. Kap was a 2nd round pick and had an electric post season run.
You aren't doing what you think you are doing here Giantstock. Those teams have done what a lot of us are advocating. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, if you don't have the elite QB have different QBs ready to take a bite of that apple and step up.
The real tragedy of this season is that we didn't draft one of the mid round, young QBs and I don't think that had anything to do with their value. Occom's razor. Some teams have a philosophy that stretches decades of spreading resources out on the QB position. Some like the Giants are on the complete other end of the spectrum, they fall in love with their QBs and view it as very much a part of that love to show dedication to that QB. They view it as disloyal to bring in real competition. The data backs that up when you see a team like SF consistently do this and a team like the NYG only do this for single years of transition and under duress from the fan base. Fans shouldn't have to push you to diversify the most important asset on the field but that has 100% been the pattern
Philly won with a backup QB.
I want a new QB more than likely and it's okay to wait one year before going aggressive with a QB.
If by luck DJ is good then that is fine too.
The key factor with Philly was that they weren't paying the QB in that year. They could afford a stacked roster around the position. The second they paid the QB, that thing collapsed. San Fran hasn't gotten over the hump either and aggressively traded up for a QB last year. Jimmy is decent but their actions speak loudly there.
BTW, I was an asshole to you when we last interacted on here and I apologize for that.
It's a downer that Jones is the QB again. It's a near certainty that he's gone after the year, so what is the point of giving him snaps?
Because "it's not certain" he is gone?
You're the one who said it's not certain so it appears you are arguing against yourself.
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They go to the Super Bowl with a lesser QB and almost won.
Philly won with a backup QB.
I want a new QB more than likely and it's okay to wait one year before going aggressive with a QB.
If by luck DJ is good then that is fine too.
You mean two team's that decided their QBs weren't good enough and have replaced them?
Jones ceiling is the kind of QB that even of he's good, you still need to upgrade from because he's not good enough.
I mean the team that won a Super Bowl, and got to a Super Bowl with the other and the NFC Championship the other.
That's not something you want to see as Giants fan?
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They go to the Super Bowl with a lesser QB and almost won.
Philly won with a backup QB.
I want a new QB more than likely and it's okay to wait one year before going aggressive with a QB.
If by luck DJ is good then that is fine too.
The key factor with Philly was that they weren't paying the QB in that year. They could afford a stacked roster around the position. The second they paid the QB, that thing collapsed. San Fran hasn't gotten over the hump either and aggressively traded up for a QB last year. Jimmy is decent but their actions speak loudly there.
BTW, I was an asshole to you when we last interacted on here and I apologize for that.
NP - I can't recall other than we argued and it got ugly but somehow I don't think that bad. I apologize as well. I can get over-the-top.
Be interested to see what Baker is going to get after his contract is done.
With San Fran - they at least got there and another year the got NFC championship. And that Super Bowl, that was tight.
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In comment 15702900 giantstock said:
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They go to the Super Bowl with a lesser QB and almost won.
Philly won with a backup QB.
I want a new QB more than likely and it's okay to wait one year before going aggressive with a QB.
If by luck DJ is good then that is fine too.
You mean two team's that decided their QBs weren't good enough and have replaced them?
Jones ceiling is the kind of QB that even of he's good, you still need to upgrade from because he's not good enough.
I mean the team that won a Super Bowl, and got to a Super Bowl with the other and the NFC Championship the other.
That's not something you want to see as Giants fan?
Of course, but I don't think it's necessarily the best strategy to emulate. Especially since despite that success those teams still changed/are about to change their QB.
If everything breaks just right could DJ get to a SB with the right players around him? Sure. But IMO having a win-because of QB not a win-with passenger QB is going to set this team up for long term success and not just a Cinderella run
Be thankful they did not reach this year for a substandard QB and rely on some of the QB gurus here.
This is going to seem like semantics, but that's not my intent:
We don't know if DJ has elevated the offense at all if the only comparison is Glennon and Fromm. Their struggles may say less about how bad the supporting cast is and may say more about how bad Glennon and Fromm were. Being less awful does not necessarily equal elevating anything about the offense.
It could just as easily mean that Jones is a much better backup QB than two guys who probably don't belong in the NFL at this point.
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In comment 15702911 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15702900 giantstock said:
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They go to the Super Bowl with a lesser QB and almost won.
Philly won with a backup QB.
I want a new QB more than likely and it's okay to wait one year before going aggressive with a QB.
If by luck DJ is good then that is fine too.
You mean two team's that decided their QBs weren't good enough and have replaced them?
Jones ceiling is the kind of QB that even of he's good, you still need to upgrade from because he's not good enough.
I mean the team that won a Super Bowl, and got to a Super Bowl with the other and the NFC Championship the other.
That's not something you want to see as Giants fan?
Of course, but I don't think it's necessarily the best strategy to emulate. Especially since despite that success those teams still changed/are about to change their QB.
If everything breaks just right could DJ get to a SB with the right players around him? Sure. But IMO having a win-because of QB not a win-with passenger QB is going to set this team up for long term success and not just a Cinderella run
That's why I'm with many that prefer he eventually is gone.
But I'm not with the "Go Terps" type of posters that think they should have just dumped him for nay of the other "junk" that is currently available. These were the same type of posters wanting to push Glennon on us during the season.
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This is true:
It's a downer that Jones is the QB again. It's a near certainty that he's gone after the year, so what is the point of giving him snaps?
Because "it's not certain" he is gone?
You're the one who said it's not certain so it appears you are arguing against yourself.
You want to parse words, fine. I don't think it's the point of the discussion.
My prediction is that sometime between Halloween and Thanksgiving we're going to be asking ourselves why we gave a lame duck any 2022 snaps at all.
I am excited for the new regime and the players that Schoen has brought in. He's replaced about half the roster already; I expect nearly all of the other half will be on the chopping block soon and replaced with better players.
Fromm and Glennon are not starting caliber QBs in the NFL. They probably aren't backup worthy. Fromm started no games in the NFL. Somehow, Jones gets 4 seasons to make mistakes, but Jake Fromm is used as an indicator with no NFL starts. Talk about grading Jones on a curve.
Put a real QB on this team, last season, Burrow, Mahomes, Herbert, and they would make Jones look the way Jones made Fromm appear.
My prediction is that sometime between Halloween and Thanksgiving we're going to be asking ourselves why we gave a lame duck any 2022 snaps at all.
this is a false premise.
as usual the find a new qb group campaign forgets that to do so you need to...find a new qb.
they passed on all the options in the draft (as did the entire league more than once for all except pickett).
they passed on Trubisky for basically the same $ as Taylor.
so are you still not abandoning that they should have picked Willis at #5 and only didn't because Mara doesn't want a black QB? Or should they have gone with Pickett? Or given up picks for Wentz?
Which specific player should they have given the 2022 snaps to?
To either over-coddle Jones or protect his fragile ego the Giants have refused to bring in any kind of competition. Even this year when picking a young QB would have made tons of sense they didn't. People take that to mean there is something in Jones play that JS and BD have seen but it really is just a sign of the way they do this estate planning.
SF and Philly for many years have had 2nd and 3rd options waiting in the wings because that is what smart teams do with the most valuable position on the field. Even when QBs have shown MUCH more than Jones it makes sense to have both a veteran QB and a young up and comer waiting in the wings.
What you have identified as being able to win with a lesser QB I would 100% attribute to a modern strategy of risk diversification. SF is a prime example, having Jimmy G ready. Kap was a 2nd round pick and had an electric post season run.
You aren't doing what you think you are doing here Giantstock. Those teams have done what a lot of us are advocating. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, if you don't have the elite QB have different QBs ready to take a bite of that apple and step up.
The real tragedy of this season is that we didn't draft one of the mid round, young QBs and I don't think that had anything to do with their value. Occom's razor. Some teams have a philosophy that stretches decades of spreading resources out on the QB position. Some like the Giants are on the complete other end of the spectrum, they fall in love with their QBs and view it as very much a part of that love to show dedication to that QB. They view it as disloyal to bring in real competition. The data backs that up when you see a team like SF consistently do this and a team like the NYG only do this for single years of transition and under duress from the fan base. Fans shouldn't have to push you to diversify the most important asset on the field but that has 100% been the pattern
I don't agree.
You start taking those "other QB's:" when you built up a baseline (floor) of a solid team. Just as Philly did. They got Foles when they were ready to win.
I can see it if you don't have a plan for 2023- but imo Giants have a good plan in 0223 because 2022 they are going to suck. You don't need to be in the top 2 to draft a good QB.
It's hwy I advocated not taking a QB this year.
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In comment 15702819 Go Terps said:
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This is true:
It's a downer that Jones is the QB again. It's a near certainty that he's gone after the year, so what is the point of giving him snaps?
Because "it's not certain" he is gone?
You're the one who said it's not certain so it appears you are arguing against yourself.
You want to parse words, fine. I don't think it's the point of the discussion.
My prediction is that sometime between Halloween and Thanksgiving we're going to be asking ourselves why we gave a lame duck any 2022 snaps at all.
I am excited for the new regime and the players that Schoen has brought in. He's replaced about half the roster already; I expect nearly all of the other half will be on the chopping block soon and replaced with better players.
If Daboll/Kafka/Tierney reported to Schoen that, after reviewing the scouting film of Pickett, Willis, Ridder, and Corral, none of this years crop is a "QB of the future" then I don't have a problem giving a lame duck 2022 snaps. On the other hand, if the 3 of them were pounding the table for a particular QB, I would not be happy if the Giants passed on that player and instead are giving snaps to Jones after that other player would have been ready. I think someone like Sam Darnold is a cautionary tale of throwing a QB into the fire before he should have been because he looked the part in preseason.
Daniel Jones was the #6 overall pick. apparently now his measuring stick has been reduced to a backup QB/special teams over achiever. sadly for us, other teams expect to take future pro bowlers and all pros with a pick that high.
Well some of those same people also doubted Charlie Connerly, despite him being the rookie of the year and an all-pro before winning a championship.
So in summary, that is a good comment to completely dismiss.
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In comment 15702819 Go Terps said:
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This is true:
It's a downer that Jones is the QB again. It's a near certainty that he's gone after the year, so what is the point of giving him snaps?
Because "it's not certain" he is gone?
You're the one who said it's not certain so it appears you are arguing against yourself.
You want to parse words, fine. I don't think it's the point of the discussion.
My prediction is that sometime between Halloween and Thanksgiving we're going to be asking ourselves why we gave a lame duck any 2022 snaps at all.
I am excited for the new regime and the players that Schoen has brought in. He's replaced about half the roster already; I expect nearly all of the other half will be on the chopping block soon and replaced with better players.
It is the point of the discussion. Because you will use "those words" to cover yourself in the future.
And your point on Halloween to Thanks is laughable. C;mon. Posters like you that complained and do complain every day will continue to complain. Okay fine you are going to complain. That's just "you."
Some for example already recognize the season is going to suck more than likely and we don';t agree with posters like you that that maybe pushed Glennon type QB's all because you hate Jones.
Fromm and Glennon are not starting caliber QBs in the NFL. They probably aren't backup worthy. Fromm started no games in the NFL. Somehow, Jones gets 4 seasons to make mistakes, but Jake Fromm is used as an indicator with no NFL starts. Talk about grading Jones on a curve.
Put a real QB on this team, last season, Burrow, Mahomes, Herbert, and they would make Jones look the way Jones made Fromm appear.
And if I came in to replace Glennon, the offense would have been even worse. So using that measure, Glennon also elevated this offense.
And then if my grandmother came in to replace me...
They also capitalized on the RPO which since then the NFL has been much better at defending. So big tip of the cap to the coaching effort that year.
They should have drafted a quarterback in this draft. Shit, they could have signed Strong as a UDFA.
To go into the season with a depth chart of Jones/Taylor/Webb is punting the season at the position. No one there figures for the future. No one there is a realistic candidate to be here past 2023.
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Which specific player should they have given the 2022 snaps to?
They should have drafted a quarterback in this draft. Shit, they could have signed Strong as a UDFA.
To go into the season with a depth chart of Jones/Taylor/Webb is punting the season at the position. No one there figures for the future. No one there is a realistic candidate to be here past 2023.
And next year I'm sure you'll deny ever advocating for Strong if he doesn't pan out.
Why?
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And next year I'm sure you'll deny ever advocating for Strong if he doesn't pan out.
Why?
You tell me. You will be the one inevitably denying it. Probably you can't remember what you posted and basically sometimes you don't think and just post the 1st thing that pops into your head?
You tell me.
They also capitalized on the RPO which since then the NFL has been much better at defending. So big tip of the cap to the coaching effort that year.
Which is why I advocated not taking a QB in early rounds this year unless you love him.
And it's why I feel it was best to wait drafting in other rounds until you get more quality players.
I don't care.
All of the energy spend arguing how they feel about Jones is wasted energy. They only we know for sure is that they felt the wisest financial decision they could make was decline the Daniel Jones' fifth year option.
Take all the time you need to understand what that actually means.
We can get clues by thinking about what it does not mean.
They did not decline the 5th year option because they believe Jones is the long term answer.
I don't know why that is so hard to comprehend.
Here is my BBI prediction for 2022. Jones is going to put up a stat line somewhat equivalent to what Cousins, Goff and Foles and did in similar systems, right before their teams at the time, all decided to move on form them.
QB stats are inflated in these type of systems.
BBI will go to war.
Jones is a one year deal now, he needs to be VERY good.
And someone else will pay DJ to see if he's their answer.
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Which specific player should they have given the 2022 snaps to?
They should have drafted a quarterback in this draft. Shit, they could have signed Strong as a UDFA.
To go into the season with a depth chart of Jones/Taylor/Webb is punting the season at the position. No one there figures for the future. No one there is a realistic candidate to be here past 2023.
which QB should they have drafted?
you are wishing for something the NFL seems to think wasn't there. this is basically saying "play Fromm it can't be worse".
And yes, I'm fine starting any unknown quantity over going with Jones. Jones is a known quantity: poor starter who is not part of the future - that was cemented when they didn't pick up the option.
Say we draft Howell (a more talented player than Jones, by the way) in the 4th. Play him in 2022 - if he shows something, great - we don't need to draft a QB in 2023. If he doesn't, fine - we're open to drafting a guy in 2023 anyway.
What's the point of playing Jones? And I'm asking that question in the real world, not the "what if he turns into Josh Allen" world. We know how this story ends.
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woeful under Fromm and Glennon is patently absurd.
Fromm and Glennon are not starting caliber QBs in the NFL. They probably aren't backup worthy. Fromm started no games in the NFL. Somehow, Jones gets 4 seasons to make mistakes, but Jake Fromm is used as an indicator with no NFL starts. Talk about grading Jones on a curve.
Put a real QB on this team, last season, Burrow, Mahomes, Herbert, and they would make Jones look the way Jones made Fromm appear.
And if I came in to replace Glennon, the offense would have been even worse. So using that measure, Glennon also elevated this offense.
And then if my grandmother came in to replace me...
Yep. That's how silly it is. Their logic in action.
And yes, I'm fine starting any unknown quantity over going with Jones. Jones is a known quantity: poor starter who is not part of the future - that was cemented when they didn't pick up the option.
Say we draft Howell (a more talented player than Jones, by the way) in the 4th. Play him in 2022 - if he shows something, great - we don't need to draft a QB in 2023. If he doesn't, fine - we're open to drafting a guy in 2023 anyway.
What's the point of playing Jones? And I'm asking that question in the real world, not the "what if he turns into Josh Allen" world. We know how this story ends.
I completely agree. We could have had Willis with a 3rd round pick. It's all upside at that point. I love the Daboll/Schoen approach. But this is something we might regret.
Most of us know what we have in Jones. But we don't know what Willis can be. Right now, the sky is the limit on Willis, and for all of these QBs. Right now Jones is a mediocrity who might win 7 games and cost us a chance at a great QB in next year's draft. I would rather roll with a Willis, and if he sucks we win 2 games and pick one of the studs in 23.
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Which specific player should they have given the 2022 snaps to?
They should have drafted a quarterback in this draft. Shit, they could have signed Strong as a UDFA.
To go into the season with a depth chart of Jones/Taylor/Webb is punting the season at the position. No one there figures for the future. No one there is a realistic candidate to be here past 2023.
What if Daboll/Kafka/Tierney did not think that there was any QB in this draft that they wanted on the roster past 2023?
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In comment 15702997 Eric on Li said:
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Which specific player should they have given the 2022 snaps to?
They should have drafted a quarterback in this draft. Shit, they could have signed Strong as a UDFA.
To go into the season with a depth chart of Jones/Taylor/Webb is punting the season at the position. No one there figures for the future. No one there is a realistic candidate to be here past 2023.
What if Daboll/Kafka/Tierney did not think that there was any QB in this draft that they wanted on the roster past 2023?
easy, say they should have taken 1 of them anyway so you can call it a mistake if 1 of them happens to succeed.
Fromm and Glennon are not starting caliber QBs in the NFL. They probably aren't backup worthy. Fromm started no games in the NFL. Somehow, Jones gets 4 seasons to make mistakes, but Jake Fromm is used as an indicator with no NFL starts. Talk about grading Jones on a curve.
Put a real QB on this team, last season, Burrow, Mahomes, Herbert, and they would make Jones look the way Jones made Fromm appear.
No actually it s not. Glennon has never been as futile as he was last season, not even with the Jags
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In comment 15702997 Eric on Li said:
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Which specific player should they have given the 2022 snaps to?
They should have drafted a quarterback in this draft. Shit, they could have signed Strong as a UDFA.
To go into the season with a depth chart of Jones/Taylor/Webb is punting the season at the position. No one there figures for the future. No one there is a realistic candidate to be here past 2023.
What if Daboll/Kafka/Tierney did not think that there was any QB in this draft that they wanted on the roster past 2023?
This seems pretty reasonable. I also doubt this brand new staff wanted all the attention a QB added would bring that they thought very unlikely would have any type of success.
But we are not a fly on the wall of the closed door meetings. We know McAdoo really wanted Pat Mahomes, but I am not going to fault Schoen if the coaching staff said they had nobody in this draft that they thought would end up better than Daniel Jones (or in the case of Pickett that he was enough better than Jones to make up the difference of KT or Neal versus who would have been in their place).
So why is he still here?
So why is he still here?
When you are convinced there is no chance the quarterback is in place, it really sucks. Going to be a rough season for you
So why is he still here?
You already told us, Mara doesn't want a black QB.
What did we hear all offseason “what better option do we have?” I’m sure we will hear that exact refrain next offseason. But that’s a self fulfilling prophecy when you have your sacred cow. It’s terrifying the way people defend a QB that has never been good, not at any level. All of these arguments about Jones are an attempt to project him being less bad than his competition forward. Or one season where he put up numbers but had one of the sloppiest seasons for a QB ever. You guys are going to be doing your acrobatics to explain why he should get paid big bucks after a decent season. For the love of god wake up and stop helping to rubber stamp underwhelming QB play before we get stuck to it long term.
People seem confident that we will be able to cut bait if he has a less than great season I’m not so confident. Why are we content to bet on a guy whose upside projects to perhaps winning with a stellar team around him? For the people saying I’m ok with that, we don’t even know if he IS that yet. Why sign up for that bet?
What did we hear all offseason “what better option do we have?” I’m sure we will hear that exact refrain next offseason. But that’s a self fulfilling prophecy when you have your sacred cow. It’s terrifying the way people defend a QB that has never been good, not at any level. All of these arguments about Jones are an attempt to project him being less bad than his competition forward. Or one season where he put up numbers but had one of the sloppiest seasons for a QB ever. You guys are going to be doing your acrobatics to explain why he should get paid big bucks after a decent season. For the love of god wake up and stop helping to rubber stamp underwhelming QB play before we get stuck to it long term.
People seem confident that we will be able to cut bait if he has a less than great season I’m not so confident. Why are we content to bet on a guy whose upside projects to perhaps winning with a stellar team around him? For the people saying I’m ok with that, we don’t even know if he IS that yet. Why sign up for that bet?
Ask Schoen and Daboll, they're the ones that are making that bet with their careers.
(oh right, I forgot they were forced into keep jones)
(but not forced to give him his 5th year option, or block signing Taylor)
(however also forced them to not draft any of the rookie qbs)
So why is he still here?
Because at his price tag for 2022 there was not anybody they saw as a better option (no pun intended). Daboll and Kafka care more about (1) being able to run their entire offense and (2) not getting the WR's killed. Jones, for all of his faults (and there are many), allows you to run a more complete playbook than if you are going with a rookie. Also, I don't believe for a minute that the QB position is settled. If someone like Baker Mayfield got cut by Cleveland I could see the Giants having interest. With the offset language nobody will offer Mayfield anything that would net him more money so a team like the Giants would be competitive even if they lack cap room.
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
You already told us, Mara doesn't want a black QB.
I guess they never met Tyrod Taylor!
I’m not saying I know what they think. I’m saying whatever they think is undoubtedly moved and influenced by those clear feelings. How can you ignore that?
How do you know on the flip side that JS wouldn’t have preferred to trade DJ without influence?
This is the annoying part, I’m not asking for anything all the logically incongruent. Just that a man with a history of being a meddling owner with strong opinions on the starting QB who gets up and talks in the same way he has in the past. That man may still be making at least some impact?
I’m not ignoring the possibility that things could be different. But many are ignoring the possibility that they aren’t different. And that way Mara talked about Jones isn’t a great indication that things are different
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In comment 15703357 Go Terps said:
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
You already told us, Mara doesn't want a black QB.
I guess they never met Tyrod Taylor!
the history is a little murky but based on the anthony wright accords of 2007 the maras have had longstanding comfort with black backups so taylor is in the clear.
the andre woodson conventions of 2008 set precedent to draft a black qb on the old day 2 of the draft, however since it was round 6 that translates to the new day 3, hence why Malik Willis was passed over.
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
When you are convinced there is no chance the quarterback is in place, it really sucks. Going to be a rough season for you
You too, if you care about wins and losses. Some of us do.
And yes, I'm fine starting any unknown quantity over going with Jones. Jones is a known quantity: poor starter who is not part of the future - that was cemented when they didn't pick up the option.
Say we draft Howell (a more talented player than Jones, by the way) in the 4th. Play him in 2022 - if he shows something, great - we don't need to draft a QB in 2023. If he doesn't, fine - we're open to drafting a guy in 2023 anyway.
What's the point of playing Jones? And I'm asking that question in the real world, not the "what if he turns into Josh Allen" world. We know how this story ends.
If you have another Glennon type what's the point of watching? The guy you are drafting is most likely "Glennon" rather than a quality starting QB
Then why would any FA want to come?
It's a business too. The crap you want is too risky for a business. Your solution is "PRAYER." Not because you believe in the player you draft. But because you hate Jones.
Businesses aren't run in the manner you want. If the Scouts in your room are you telling you chances are the player sucks and you completely go outside of that and fail -- your next job is at Dick's Sporting Goods. It's okay for you to suggests this because you aren't accountable and can hide behind a computer screename.
\
And please stop with the comedy "what if he turns into Josh Allen." Josh Allen was taken early half round 1. The fact you are suggesting any of these guys are him is completely absurd. Just like many of your posts. Josh Allen?????????? You got to be kidding!!!!!!
Hey using your logic we should sign all QB;s that weren't drafted. They could be the next Kurt Warner!!!!
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In comment 15703357 Go Terps said:
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
When you are convinced there is no chance the quarterback is in place, it really sucks. Going to be a rough season for you
You too, if you care about wins and losses. Some of us do.
Which QB that we did not attempt to sign or draft will produce more wins than Jones THIS YEAR?
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In comment 15703357 Go Terps said:
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
When you are convinced there is no chance the quarterback is in place, it really sucks. Going to be a rough season for you
You too, if you care about wins and losses. Some of us do.
How can you say you care about wins and losses when you want Glennon types????? You just want to gamble and dont give a shit if things go even worse than Glennon types.
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In comment 15703364 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15703357 Go Terps said:
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
When you are convinced there is no chance the quarterback is in place, it really sucks. Going to be a rough season for you
You too, if you care about wins and losses. Some of us do.
Which QB that we did not attempt to sign or draft will produce more wins than Jones THIS YEAR?
They signed a guy who wins more games: Tyrod Taylor. That move was fine for 2022 (though they've already handed the starting job to Jones).
I'm not looking to draft a quarterback solely for this year, particularly when the ceiling is probably around 7 wins.
What did we hear all offseason “what better option do we have?” I’m sure we will hear that exact refrain next offseason.
I suspect you will be wrong. Because you are intentionally closing your eyes to 2023.
We learned from other non-QB players on the team.
You realize there are other positions in football that also need to learn, right?
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Particularly when they started dropping. I would have explored the trade market for anyone on the roster to try to add day 2 or 3 picks. If I have a complaint thus far with Schoen (not really complaining, I'm happy with his work this far) it's that he could have been more aggressive tearing this down.
And yes, I'm fine starting any unknown quantity over going with Jones. Jones is a known quantity: poor starter who is not part of the future - that was cemented when they didn't pick up the option.
Say we draft Howell (a more talented player than Jones, by the way) in the 4th. Play him in 2022 - if he shows something, great - we don't need to draft a QB in 2023. If he doesn't, fine - we're open to drafting a guy in 2023 anyway.
What's the point of playing Jones? And I'm asking that question in the real world, not the "what if he turns into Josh Allen" world. We know how this story ends.
If you have another Glennon type what's the point of watching? The guy you are drafting is most likely "Glennon" rather than a quality starting QB
Then why would any FA want to come?
It's a business too. The crap you want is too risky for a business. Your solution is "PRAYER." Not because you believe in the player you draft. But because you hate Jones.
Businesses aren't run in the manner you want. If the Scouts in your room are you telling you chances are the player sucks and you completely go outside of that and fail -- your next job is at Dick's Sporting Goods. It's okay for you to suggests this because you aren't accountable and can hide behind a computer screename.
\
And please stop with the comedy "what if he turns into Josh Allen." Josh Allen was taken early half round 1. The fact you are suggesting any of these guys are him is completely absurd. Just like many of your posts. Josh Allen?????????? You got to be kidding!!!!!!
Hey using your logic we should sign all QB;s that weren't drafted. They could be the next Kurt Warner!!!!
GT wasn't saying a QB this year would turn into Allen, he was poking at thw people saying what if Jones turns into Josh Allen
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In comment 15703423 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15703364 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15703357 Go Terps said:
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
When you are convinced there is no chance the quarterback is in place, it really sucks. Going to be a rough season for you
You too, if you care about wins and losses. Some of us do.
Which QB that we did not attempt to sign or draft will produce more wins than Jones THIS YEAR?
They signed a guy who wins more games: Tyrod Taylor. That move was fine for 2022 (though they've already handed the starting job to Jones).
I'm not looking to draft a quarterback solely for this year, particularly when the ceiling is probably around 7 wins.
If that is the case you then also need to consider the QB's available in the 2023 Draft. Young, Stroud, Jurkovec, Haener, McCall, Levis, Van Dyke, and Armstrong all look better than anybody in 2022 class at this point last year (other than Sam Howell). There are others like Cameron Ward who potentially could rise big time. I just find it hard to believe that all will flat on their face next year. If the Giants are as bad as you are expecting we will likely be in range to select one.
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In comment 15703202 Go Terps said:
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Particularly when they started dropping. I would have explored the trade market for anyone on the roster to try to add day 2 or 3 picks. If I have a complaint thus far with Schoen (not really complaining, I'm happy with his work this far) it's that he could have been more aggressive tearing this down.
And yes, I'm fine starting any unknown quantity over going with Jones. Jones is a known quantity: poor starter who is not part of the future - that was cemented when they didn't pick up the option.
Say we draft Howell (a more talented player than Jones, by the way) in the 4th. Play him in 2022 - if he shows something, great - we don't need to draft a QB in 2023. If he doesn't, fine - we're open to drafting a guy in 2023 anyway.
What's the point of playing Jones? And I'm asking that question in the real world, not the "what if he turns into Josh Allen" world. We know how this story ends.
If you have another Glennon type what's the point of watching? The guy you are drafting is most likely "Glennon" rather than a quality starting QB
Then why would any FA want to come?
It's a business too. The crap you want is too risky for a business. Your solution is "PRAYER." Not because you believe in the player you draft. But because you hate Jones.
Businesses aren't run in the manner you want. If the Scouts in your room are you telling you chances are the player sucks and you completely go outside of that and fail -- your next job is at Dick's Sporting Goods. It's okay for you to suggests this because you aren't accountable and can hide behind a computer screename.
\
And please stop with the comedy "what if he turns into Josh Allen." Josh Allen was taken early half round 1. The fact you are suggesting any of these guys are him is completely absurd. Just like many of your posts. Josh Allen?????????? You got to be kidding!!!!!!
Hey using your logic we should sign all QB;s that weren't drafted. They could be the next Kurt Warner!!!!
GT wasn't saying a QB this year would turn into Allen, he was poking at thw people saying what if Jones turns into Josh Allen
Was there someone on here saying Jones was going to be Allen??? I didn't see that. So I assumed it was GT.
Any nut job prop Jones poster who thinks that needs their head examined.
I just find it hard to believe that all will flat on their face next year. If the Giants are as bad as you are expecting we will likely be in range to select one.
I've made this point many times to posters like Go Terps.
If Jones is as bad as he implies then the team is going to suck thus you put yourself in a good position to draft a 2023 . And it doesn't have ot be the 1st or 2nd overall pick.
And if he gets you in that 6-7 win mark then the idea of drafting a QB this year and dumping Jones in which the new QB could be absolutely horrific is not what a business would normally risk doing.
here's how it's entirely about them - their decisions impact their lives.
the last 3 coaches here have gotten fired after 2 years. Which means Joe Schoen's biggest decision since he's been here is probably more likely than not to end in failure about 18 months from today on black monday 2024.
if things go like the last 4 guys between now and then the most likely things to happen over these next 18 months are articles written about Daboll's job security, poor hires on his coaching staff, reaches in the draft (this one's already happening), and gifs on twitter at his expense to such an extent that getting the axe will probably be a relief even with the prospect of uprooting his family for the x time and possibly never getting another shot at being an NFL head coach.
so to say that every big decision they make carries a lot of weight would be an understatement. these guys had choices and they chose to come here. in a million years i dont think they would sit quietly and pass on what they believe to be a QB upgrade whether it's from UFA or the draft. And certainly not for some of the farcical suggestions like the Mara's don't want a black qb.
a franchise qb in particular is a coaches golden ticket to a successful career. which is a ticket to their families stability and 10's of millions of dollars. their self-interest is entirely on getting things right not wasting the limited time/goodwill they've spent decades building. if they don't get it right this time they likely dont get another shot.
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In comment 15703357 Go Terps said:
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
When you are convinced there is no chance the quarterback is in place, it really sucks. Going to be a rough season for you
You too, if you care about wins and losses. Some of us do.
You ve already accepted defeat. I don’t roll that way
You are acting like just because it will be on JS and BD if things go poorly that it means they have authority when we don’t know that at all.
We’ve seen things come out about how the Mara’s impacted DG and he was their longtime pal.
Is it possible JS could like not love a QB in the middle rounds and not take them due to a potential conflict with his boss? It’s intellectually dishonest to not acknowledge this as a possibility given what we know about the Giants. And that’s the bottom line you aren’t going to love a QB in the middle rounds if you loved them you’d have taken them earlier. It’s a flier and we need to take those fliers and you are purely speculating if you are saying you know how JS would act without Mara’s influence. Again it’s you acting like you know things and me saying we don’t know them.
The reality of the business world is that it is a risk mitigation practice. There is more risk in pissing off your boss in year 1 than there is passing on a QB a bunch of people passed on anyway. All I’m advocating for is to not draw conclusions without data and without some personal knowledge of what is going on in JS’s head or his private conversations with Mara you have no idea of passing on the mid round QBs have anything to do with Mara or pure personnel evaluations and are in fact ignoring the data set we have which is Mara and the Giants are more inclined than the rest of the league to lack diversity in their QB assets and this is in line with a prior pattern.
Your side actually ignores data we have on hopes that things have changed. Hope is not sound logic
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In comment 15703364 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15703357 Go Terps said:
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
When you are convinced there is no chance the quarterback is in place, it really sucks. Going to be a rough season for you
You too, if you care about wins and losses. Some of us do.
You ve already accepted defeat. I don’t roll that way
Hopes and wishes are fun. They often have little to do with reality.
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In comment 15703423 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15703364 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15703357 Go Terps said:
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
When you are convinced there is no chance the quarterback is in place, it really sucks. Going to be a rough season for you
You too, if you care about wins and losses. Some of us do.
You ve already accepted defeat. I don’t roll that way
Hopes and wishes are fun. They often have little to do with reality.
Perhaps your reality. I ll enjoy the fun of getting excited for a new season, plenty of time for being unhappy if your reality happens to be the case
Hope you enjoy the misery,
You are acting like just because it will be on JS and BD if things go poorly that it means they have authority when we don’t know that at all.
We’ve seen things come out about how the Mara’s impacted DG and he was their longtime pal.
Is it possible JS could like not love a QB in the middle rounds and not take them due to a potential conflict with his boss? It’s intellectually dishonest to not acknowledge this as a possibility given what we know about the Giants. And that’s the bottom line you aren’t going to love a QB in the middle rounds if you loved them you’d have taken them earlier. It’s a flier and we need to take those fliers and you are purely speculating if you are saying you know how JS would act without Mara’s influence. Again it’s you acting like you know things and me saying we don’t know them.
The reality of the business world is that it is a risk mitigation practice. There is more risk in pissing off your boss in year 1 than there is passing on a QB a bunch of people passed on anyway. All I’m advocating for is to not draw conclusions without data and without some personal knowledge of what is going on in JS’s head or his private conversations with Mara you have no idea of passing on the mid round QBs have anything to do with Mara or pure personnel evaluations and are in fact ignoring the data set we have which is Mara and the Giants are more inclined than the rest of the league to lack diversity in their QB assets and this is in line with a prior pattern.
Your side actually ignores data we have on hopes that things have changed. Hope is not sound logic
Hope didn't sign Tyrod Taylor or decline Jones' option. For a guy who likes to preach data you willfully ignore a lot of it.
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In comment 15703547 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15703423 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15703364 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15703357 Go Terps said:
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
When you are convinced there is no chance the quarterback is in place, it really sucks. Going to be a rough season for you
You too, if you care about wins and losses. Some of us do.
You ve already accepted defeat. I don’t roll that way
Hopes and wishes are fun. They often have little to do with reality.
Perhaps your reality. I ll enjoy the fun of getting excited for a new season, plenty of time for being unhappy if your reality happens to be the case
Hope you enjoy the misery,
Terps can be miserable now, and you'll most likely be miserable by Halloween unless you're insistent upon denial.
It's just a matter of timing. And Terps has been right about this roster far more often than you have, even if you get 3 months of make-believe every year.
Picking up the 5th year option would have been moronic, doing non-moronic things in a slight sign of improvement but isn’t very big at all. Jones has paid horribly you can’t pay him that over $20M.
TT might have looked like a bigger step in the right direction if it was actually an open competition. Jones is frequently injured and most teams acknowledge having a backup even with a good QB is important. Again doing basic intelligent things isn’t a sign of big change.
Now the Mara press conference is a HUGE sign that things haven’t changed. It makes the TT signing less a sign of a change because. And you are undermining your GM and coach in public. It’s a neon sign saying that things are just the way they were because this is not a change from how you’ve ever acted.
I’m not ignoring data you are acting like basic things are signs of change when we’ve seen way bigger signs there isn’t a change. The TT thing is especially insane to bring up given Mara’s comments completely devaluing TT’s contributions. How hard is it going to be to switch to TT when you owner says things in public like that?
Picking up the 5th year option would have been moronic, doing non-moronic things in a slight sign of improvement but isn’t very big at all. Jones has paid horribly you can’t pay him that over $20M.
TT might have looked like a bigger step in the right direction if it was actually an open competition. Jones is frequently injured and most teams acknowledge having a backup even with a good QB is important. Again doing basic intelligent things isn’t a sign of big change.
Now the Mara press conference is a HUGE sign that things haven’t changed. It makes the TT signing less a sign of a change because. And you are undermining your GM and coach in public. It’s a neon sign saying that things are just the way they were because this is not a change from how you’ve ever acted.
I’m not ignoring data you are acting like basic things are signs of change when we’ve seen way bigger signs there isn’t a change. The TT thing is especially insane to bring up given Mara’s comments completely devaluing TT’s contributions. How hard is it going to be to switch to TT when you owner says things in public like that?
as hard as it was to start a rookie over eli manning after 2 weeks despite publicly saying they thought he had multiple years left?
or as hard as it was to fire Judge a couple months after saying they weren't firing him?
or as hard as it was to let schoen hire daboll as head coach when we know they originally wanted to hire him as flores' OC before hiring schoen?
if you think nothing has changed then you think schoen and daboll were the wrong hires. which they may have been. but seems like it might be more prudent to give them 1 or 2 games before deciding.
if they were good hires they aren't passing on a qb they want that they have a chance at. there is no simpler way to say it than that.
(im not saying they are definitely good hires, neither was my first choice but i like what they've done so far)
If the Giants end up with a top 5 pick and the draft prep calendar avails a consensus blue chip QB, it's any easy choice.
The franchise tender is due March Week 1, before all the pre-draft stuff is wrapped. Specifically the in-person visits and the pro days. The franchise tender is ~30M.
These choices get tough on the margins, and that's where the owner's opinion isn't helpful.
Not all of them are as bad at using their judgement around these things as Mara though.
I bet some are valuable voices in the room.
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In comment 15703364 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15703357 Go Terps said:
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
When you are convinced there is no chance the quarterback is in place, it really sucks. Going to be a rough season for you
You too, if you care about wins and losses. Some of us do.
You ve already accepted defeat. I don’t roll that way
You may not have accepted defeat, but the odds say you aren't especially interested in winning either.
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you are over emphasizing force multipliers which is a relevant part of any forecasting problem.
Picking up the 5th year option would have been moronic, doing non-moronic things in a slight sign of improvement but isn’t very big at all. Jones has paid horribly you can’t pay him that over $20M.
TT might have looked like a bigger step in the right direction if it was actually an open competition. Jones is frequently injured and most teams acknowledge having a backup even with a good QB is important. Again doing basic intelligent things isn’t a sign of big change.
Now the Mara press conference is a HUGE sign that things haven’t changed. It makes the TT signing less a sign of a change because. And you are undermining your GM and coach in public. It’s a neon sign saying that things are just the way they were because this is not a change from how you’ve ever acted.
I’m not ignoring data you are acting like basic things are signs of change when we’ve seen way bigger signs there isn’t a change. The TT thing is especially insane to bring up given Mara’s comments completely devaluing TT’s contributions. How hard is it going to be to switch to TT when you owner says things in public like that?
as hard as it was to start a rookie over eli manning after 2 weeks despite publicly saying they thought he had multiple years left?
or as hard as it was to fire Judge a couple months after saying they weren't firing him?
or as hard as it was to let schoen hire daboll as head coach when we know they originally wanted to hire him as flores' OC before hiring schoen?
if you think nothing has changed then you think schoen and daboll were the wrong hires. which they may have been. but seems like it might be more prudent to give them 1 or 2 games before deciding.
I agree with all this Eric, but it's still hard to not believe Mara is good to make the wrong decision right up until the point he doesn't
he owns every shitty leadership decision post-Coughlin. Reese, McAdoo, Gettleman, Shurmur, Judge. that's plenty of bad decision making to own right there, more than enough to quite literally sink a decade.
i worry about schoen and daboll being the next names in the string of shitty decisions because how could we not? but i've seen nothing from their actions to strip them of their agency in whatever the outcome.
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In comment 15703423 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15703364 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15703357 Go Terps said:
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We do know what they think of Jones though. They told us that clearly when they didn't pick up his option.
So why is he still here?
When you are convinced there is no chance the quarterback is in place, it really sucks. Going to be a rough season for you
You too, if you care about wins and losses. Some of us do.
You ve already accepted defeat. I don’t roll that way
You may not have accepted defeat, but the odds say you aren't especially interested in winning either.
I want the quarterback to play well and that means I m not interested in winning. Lol. That’s just dumb sorry, but it is
Don't play well ---> He doesn't.
'Dilemma' implies a challenging question.
It might be a dilemma if he plays well in 2022. Let's see that happen first.
Jones is a stop gap for 2022 until the next guy is drafted which most likely will be next April.
an owner gushing to press isn't the ironclad data point you seem to think it is. it's words.
he gushed to the press about judge. and then fired him.
they gushed to the press about Eli. and then benched him after 2 games in 2019.
Tyrod didn't get words - he got 8.2m guaranteed and the highest AAV of any FA they signed in a year where they were looking under couch cushions to find cap $ to spend. And for all the words about Jones he got his option declined.
i can assure you however much you think john mara loves jones he loves eli more and just like that situation if the new guys thought it was in the best interest of the team to draft a rookie or play taylor either will/would have happened.
because jones is both a better quarterback and not 33 years old. there is zero upside in starting tyrod taylor.
Him jumping the gun on that kind of flies in the face about your point of how valued TT is by Mara
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why declare Jones the starter before camp even starts? He not only talked up Jones he talked down Taylor in the process. Why disparage this big investment they made as you characterize it?
because jones is both a better quarterback and not 33 years old. there is zero upside in starting tyrod taylor.
errmm.. I'm not so sure Jones is better than Taylor, in fact.
Taylor has only started 9 games in the last 4 years. he may be the only qb in the nfl more injury prone than jones. in the 5 games he started last year he threw ints at a higher rate than jones and averaged just 160 ypg. he hasn't averaged 200 yards passing per game since 2016. even if you want to call them close to even why in the world would you start the guy who is 33?
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In comment 15703946 NoGainDayne said:
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why declare Jones the starter before camp even starts? He not only talked up Jones he talked down Taylor in the process. Why disparage this big investment they made as you characterize it?
because jones is both a better quarterback and not 33 years old. there is zero upside in starting tyrod taylor.
errmm.. I'm not so sure Jones is better than Taylor, in fact.
to the surprise of nobody.
in all fairness, a lot of people said that last year about Glennon. As a matter of fact, one poster kept insisting Glennon was better even after his tour of duty here.
There is no statistical case to be made for Jones over TT. You could say TT has dropped off but to what? Did TT forget how to play football? Because he'd have to, to play as bad as Jones has.
Lol at the Glennon comparison. Glennon has never sniffed a pro bowl.
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that Jones is a better QB than TT. We've gone through it in other threads and there just is zero data supporting that
Taylor has only started 9 games in the last 4 years. he may be the only qb in the nfl more injury prone than jones. in the 5 games he started last year he threw ints at a higher rate than jones and averaged just 160 ypg. he hasn't averaged 200 yards passing per game since 2016. even if you want to call them close to even why in the world would you start the guy who is 33?
Because if you believe Jones is still an unknown variable, he makes it hard to evaluate everyone else on offense. TT isn't going to be confused for Tom Brady, but would provide a known quantity to the Giants offensive equation instead of a variable.
It's exactly the kind of emotional and non-strategic thinking that has gotten us in trouble
Jones is a stop gap for 2022 until the next guy is drafted which most likely will be next April.
No we don’t. If they bring in a quarterback I ll be 100% behind it
There is no statistical case to be made for Jones over TT. You could say TT has dropped off but to what? Did TT forget how to play football? Because he'd have to, to play as bad as Jones has.
Lol at the Glennon comparison. Glennon has never sniffed a pro bowl.
of course he's done more in the nfl he's been in the NFL since Jones was in high school. He's 8 years older.
and despite that you know how many 300 yard games he has in his 10 year career? 1 in 2016. That's it.
there's a reason nobody signed him to compete for a starting role this offseason and it's because he's not a starting level QB at this point in his career. Jones may not be either but he's 8 years younger.
It's exactly the kind of emotional and non-strategic thinking that has gotten us in trouble
if they did that (like Judge did in 2020) you would say the competition is a farce because it would be. there's no reason to go into a season with tyrod taylor as a starter unless he's caddying for a younger guy who isn't ready yet. trubisky would have been different but either he or they chose to go in a different direction.
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taken a team to the playoffs. Say what you want about how many games he's started. He has done more in the NFL than Jones has by a pretty wide margin so calling Jones better is just a complete projection on a player Jones has never shown himself to be.
There is no statistical case to be made for Jones over TT. You could say TT has dropped off but to what? Did TT forget how to play football? Because he'd have to, to play as bad as Jones has.
Lol at the Glennon comparison. Glennon has never sniffed a pro bowl.
of course he's done more in the nfl he's been in the NFL since Jones was in high school. He's 8 years older.
and despite that you know how many 300 yard games he has in his 10 year career? 1 in 2016. That's it.
there's a reason nobody signed him to compete for a starting role this offseason and it's because he's not a starting level QB at this point in his career. Jones may not be either but he's 8 years younger.
Why is youth a qualification? I'm not sure why 300 yard games is either. IMO the Giants need a QB that can actually run an viable offense so they can properly evaluate their players
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I'm saying why not see how both QBs play in the offense before you name one the starter before your coaches even set foot on their first practice field?
It's exactly the kind of emotional and non-strategic thinking that has gotten us in trouble
if they did that (like Judge did in 2020) you would say the competition is a farce because it would be. there's no reason to go into a season with tyrod taylor as a starter unless he's caddying for a younger guy who isn't ready yet. trubisky would have been different but either he or they chose to go in a different direction.
Or you can do what many teams do and have a real competition in which you give it to the best player. I don't see why it has to be a farce. I think there is very much something to the idea that you let it play out on the field, no one should take any leads from Judge. And if anything it would give Jones some much needed confidence if he was forced to win the job instead of being spoon fed more opportunities than he should have ever been given. It would be good for him to have to earn something himself in the NFL
There are only so many times all of their words and actions can scream they’re building this season around Daniel Jones, before you have to believe them.
Nor is a 3.5% TD percentage or 6.3 AY/A. Those are Jones's career numbers and they are pathetic; yet he's again being handed the starting job without being made to earn it.
Throwaway year at QB.
Dabolls style seems to be intent on giving his players confidence and having them bought in on feeling like they own what they are doing. schoen said they want him loose and not afraid to make mistakes. i have a hard time buying any argument that hews so closely to trying to create the type of atmosphere that didn't work with the previous regime. these guys are all professionals, when they signed Taylor they told him what they expected of his role and then they chose to not draft someone else. they made their decisions, you may not agree but that doesn't mean there's an illogical conspiracy behind it. jones has no contract for next year so im sure he's aware of the reality that he's competing for his nfl career.
Throwaway year at QB.
that may end up the case but if it does it hurts nobody's career more than Daboll's. First time head coaches get 2 years so he's torching 50% of his runway.
Mara loves Eli, Eli gets too many chances when he isn’t producing from that love
Mara loves Jones, Jones already has gotten too many chances when he isn’t producing legitimate concern that will continue
What is it that you dispute? That Mara loves Jones? That Mara hangs on to the players he loves too long? That Mara doesn’t have enough influence anymore to have this affect the decision making?
All of this points seems immensely difficult to prove, clear points make not a conspiracy
There are only so many times all of their words and actions can scream they’re building this season around Daniel Jones, before you have to believe them.
he looked shot in CLE pre-Mayfield. Honestly there's a case to be made he was a pretty big waste of resources they couldn't afford to waste this offseason if they were going all in on jones and not drafting a rookie. obviously couldn't have predicted Howell was going to fall all the way to the 5th but there are always backup types on day 3. hell bring back tanney.
with the way things went hard to not think they'd have been better off signing 1 or 2 of Averett or Wallace or Deshon Elliot for the secondary to give Wink a fighting chance.
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Throwaway year at QB.
that may end up the case but if it does it hurts nobody's career more than Daboll's. First time head coaches get 2 years so he's torching 50% of his runway.
He's getting more than 2 years. Anyone with half a brain knows this was a complete teardown operation and Daboll's been handed a dreadful roster with no viable quarterback.
Based on this offseason all signs point to them tanking this year.
Remember, Judge didn't get fired because of his record. He got fired because he embarrassed himself and the organization twice down the stretch in 2021. And even then Mara probably needed Tisch's intervention to fire him.
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In comment 15703986 Go Terps said:
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Throwaway year at QB.
that may end up the case but if it does it hurts nobody's career more than Daboll's. First time head coaches get 2 years so he's torching 50% of his runway.
He's getting more than 2 years. Anyone with half a brain knows this was a complete teardown operation and Daboll's been handed a dreadful roster with no viable quarterback.
Based on this offseason all signs point to them tanking this year.
Remember, Judge didn't get fired because of his record. He got fired because he embarrassed himself and the organization twice down the stretch in 2021. And even then Mara probably needed Tisch's intervention to fire him.
the circumstances were different but each of the last 3 guys got 2 years. coaches around the league have only gotten 1. no first time head coach can count on more than 2 years even if they are friends with the GM. McAdoo won 11 games in his first year. Judge got an endorsement a month before he got fired. There's no such thing as job security in the NFL for coaches.
As completely low odds as I think it is, they’re making a decent sized bet on Jones.
As completely low odds as I think it is, they’re making a decent sized bet on Jones.
agreed. i was just browsing OTC now that they updated with the bradberry signing. right now (pre rookie deals):
the nyg are essentially tied with 3 teams to spend the 15th most in the NFL on offense right around $100m (pretty high considering have a lot less in their QB1 than most of the offenses ahead of them)
but bottom 6 on defense at $77m
some of this is distorted by varied year to year cap hits and the like but the reality is the defense is crazy thin - especially the secondary which is exactly what broke Wink's D in BAL - and the success of pretty much all the money they have on the offense goes through Jones.
Daboll is making a pretty big bet on Jones (though with an obvious silver lining if it doesn't work out).
https://overthecap.com/positional-spending/ - ( New Window )
If this was about winning with Jones, the option would have been picked up.
To this point, it appears that the family is backing off and letting Schoen run things. Again, the option was a crucial decision and many here (myself included) thought there was a decent chance it would be exercised.
What the hell are they really betting with Jones?
The same with Baltimore and Trent Dilfer, Tampa Bay and Brad Johnson, Philly and Nick Foles, etc
Just do what he has been doing...
But ultimately, the risk is after tilting the moderate resources they had to the offense, Jones treads water and that creates the illusion the needle is pointing up.
And I’m not sure where the confidence next offseason is guaranteed to produce this turnkey alternative this offseason didn’t avail.
There is nothing wrong with letting him compete.
But for a rebuilding team there is nothing wrong with new coaching to see what he can be with an eye on QB's for 2023.
And if they make it competitive, so what? If TT beats him out, so what? If TT replaces him, so what?
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The 2023 Draft and FA and Trade possibilities are all on the table. To think a team that is in major rebuild mode is going to be completely out of the picture in drafting a Qb when we have seen over the years that good QB's can be drafted even after the 6th pick is just burying your head in the sand.
But ultimately, the risk is after tilting the moderate resources they had to the offense, Jones treads water and that creates the illusion the needle is pointing up.
And I’m not sure where the confidence next offseason is guaranteed to produce this turnkey alternative this offseason didn’t avail.
The needle is pointing up comment on BBI probably needs to be retired at this point. I have heard it for the last decade on this site and it has never (repeat...never) been accurate. It is typically used by posters who want to display optimism but with just enough disclaimer that the horizon is still about 2 years away so they can't ever be wrong. This isn't a shot at you christian, just a side-bar pet peeve of mine :-)
There is no needle pointing up with this team right now. There is a ton of things still wrong with this roster and contracts/players that have to be replaced. And even if Jones (and Giants) have a better 2022, football logic suggests that he will not be the QB going forward. He won't meet the high threshold that is required for QBs today to get extended deals. I am not putting all my faith in Schoen/Daboll yet, but I just don't see two young professionals that are moronic enough to hitch their future a guy that tries hard but simply isn't good enough.
And yes, while I know the Giants have not been operating on football logic for some time, I like the dynamic of a new regime that has no ties to DJ. As well as an ownership/front office that should have recently hit rock-bottom based on their awful decision-making for the past decade and should be acting in near if not total deference on most topics.
bob quinn and matt patricia were a tandem in detroit but it didn't matter, passed on herbert and never got another pick.
david culley was nick caserio's guy and did an admirable job last year in non-ideal circumstances. congrats here are some steak knives and a fishing reel you're unemployed.
matt rhule has somehow hung on for his 3rd year after passing on chances to pick mac jones last year and move up a couple picks for herbert in 2020. Now his nfl career is the hands of ben mcadoo finding a way to win with matt corral or darnold. he's probably already booking some college visits with his dad this fall to figure out where he's going to matriculate next year.
Brian Daboll's friend Joe Judge thought he had a lot more time than he had. He probably went from texting Daboll in Nov/Dec to start recruiting him for his coordinator job to congratulating him for replacing him. that is the NFL and if a rookie head coach isn't aware of that they aren't going to be a head coach for long.
if they thought trubisky gave them a better chance than jones they would have signed him and traded jones. Case Keenum got traded, Jones could have too.
if they thought there was a rookie QB in this draft who would have given them a better chance, they would have taken that player, especially if they fell to round 3 which all the non-pickett QBs did.
none of those were great options but it doesn't change the fact that they are giving jones a season as their starter. if it doesn't go well i expect they will pivot on a dime to a rookie next year but by year 2 first time coaches are usually at the top of the vegas hot seat lists.
5-10 coaches get fired every black monday and usually the 14 coaches that make the playoffs are safe.
being the group that doesn't make the playoffs is a 50/50 proposition. being in it 2 years in a row is basically dead man walking (like rhule) or dead man dead (like judge).
Giants go 7-10 have the 20th ranked scoring offense and pick near the middle of the round. Jones has a 20 TD / 13 INT season with some decent rushing yards. Now you are JS and BD, what is the bigger risk? Some half measure with Jones where you sign him to something like 2 / 50 or taking the chance on some more overpaid FA QB if there is one? Can you even trade up to the top 5 to get a QB? Maybe the people up there just want the top QBs themselves. You are again, making a lot of assumptions. To me, you cut bait with your owners sacred cow and you are exposing yourself to MORE risk. Another owner that doesn't get quite so attached to players you might say no it's a bigger risk to roll with a QB I know maxes out at mediocre. But to your point they want to keep their jobs and a lot of the time keeping your job means more doing what makes your boss happy than doing the objectively right move.
You are acting like being an NFL GM is some world of isolation where all that matters is performance, interpersonal relations be damned! But the Giants we know fairly factually care about the interpersonal more than most organizations even should. Decisions aren't cut and dry right and wrong and there is a lot of murkiness to it. It will be decision time on Jones well before they have done all their draft research and even know if they can make a trade to get their guy. You are ignoring the same risk that christian also mentioned that was actually the driving force to what everyone ALREADY has argued with Jones when he's played like dogshit. What's the alternative?
So yeah, you are ignoring the data of this year for some pie in the sky idea of some pure meritocracy when there is plenty of data that isn't how the Giants operate. And just hopes and dreams that they don't
bob quinn and matt patricia were a tandem in detroit but it didn't matter, passed on herbert and never got another pick.
david culley was nick caserio's guy and did an admirable job last year in non-ideal circumstances. congrats here are some steak knives and a fishing reel you're unemployed.
matt rhule has somehow hung on for his 3rd year after passing on chances to pick mac jones last year and move up a couple picks for herbert in 2020. Now his nfl career is the hands of ben mcadoo finding a way to win with matt corral or darnold. he's probably already booking some college visits with his dad this fall to figure out where he's going to matriculate next year.
Brian Daboll's friend Joe Judge thought he had a lot more time than he had. He probably went from texting Daboll in Nov/Dec to start recruiting him for his coordinator job to congratulating him for replacing him. that is the NFL and if a rookie head coach isn't aware of that they aren't going to be a head coach for long.
if they thought trubisky gave them a better chance than jones they would have signed him and traded jones. Case Keenum got traded, Jones could have too.
if they thought there was a rookie QB in this draft who would have given them a better chance, they would have taken that player, especially if they fell to round 3 which all the non-pickett QBs did.
none of those were great options but it doesn't change the fact that they are giving jones a season as their starter. if it doesn't go well i expect they will pivot on a dime to a rookie next year but by year 2 first time coaches are usually at the top of the vegas hot seat lists.
5-10 coaches get fired every black monday and usually the 14 coaches that make the playoffs are safe.
being the group that doesn't make the playoffs is a 50/50 proposition. being in it 2 years in a row is basically dead man walking (like rhule) or dead man dead (like judge).
Exactly why I can't believe they're taking a chance on wasting a year on DG's mistake
Besides his talent issues, Jones is a major injury risk. I think he is out injured by October and makes Schoen’s decision for him.
I think Daboll is a pretty good offensive coach and could stretch Jones to his limit. And if Jones puts up 24/12, 3800 yard season and the Giants win 6 games, I’m afraid of what happens next.
but you can't pick and choose to insert politics in decisions you don't agree with regardless of the logic.
there is zero logic to any NFL coach or GM passing on what they believe to be an upgrade at QB at any time resources permitting - which this offseason did in both UFA and draft. they had the money for trubisky who they coached just last year and they passed on every QB in the draft 3-4x with the exception of Pickett who they passed on twice. those were conscious decisions that Schoen and Daboll had agency in and if they don't they are head coach and gm in name only.
you are inventing reasons as stupid as "the maras don't want a black qb" instead of taking in real data - like every other team passing on this year's rookies multiple times - which should plainly indicate that they just weren't good prospects.
Besides his talent issues, Jones is a major injury risk. I think he is out injured by October and makes Schoen’s decision for him.
I'm actually completely willing to acknowledge that he might be right. When in reality we'd all need to have intimate knowledge of what the Mara's, JS and BD are thinking to even take a decent stab at it. And we'd also have to assume that this season doesn't change anyone's thoughts or feelings. Another massive assumption. That's the only place where I think he's wrong. His level of confidence that he seemingly knows that just because a decision is made it's made without the influence of someone's boss just because the stakes are high.
My only point is that the influence could be heavy, it could be light. I don't think it's non-existent given Mara's public comments, that seems highly unlikely.
Giants go 7-10 have the 20th ranked scoring offense and pick near the middle of the round. Jones has a 20 TD / 13 INT season with some decent rushing yards. Now you are JS and BD, what is the bigger risk? Some half measure with Jones where you sign him to something like 2 / 50 or taking the chance on some more overpaid FA QB if there is one? Can you even trade up to the top 5 to get a QB? Maybe the people up there just want the top QBs themselves. You are again, making a lot of assumptions. To me, you cut bait with your owners sacred cow and you are exposing yourself to MORE risk. Another owner that doesn't get quite so attached to players you might say no it's a bigger risk to roll with a QB I know maxes out at mediocre. But to your point they want to keep their jobs and a lot of the time keeping your job means more doing what makes your boss happy than doing the objectively right move.
You are acting like being an NFL GM is some world of isolation where all that matters is performance, interpersonal relations be damned! But the Giants we know fairly factually care about the interpersonal more than most organizations even should. Decisions aren't cut and dry right and wrong and there is a lot of murkiness to it. It will be decision time on Jones well before they have done all their draft research and even know if they can make a trade to get their guy. You are ignoring the same risk that christian also mentioned that was actually the driving force to what everyone ALREADY has argued with Jones when he's played like dogshit. What's the alternative?
So yeah, you are ignoring the data of this year for some pie in the sky idea of some pure meritocracy when there is plenty of data that isn't how the Giants operate. And just hopes and dreams that they don't
If that is his production, he won't sniff anything near 2/50 on the open market. Mitch Trubisky's final year as a starter in Chicago he was 6-3 with a 16/8 TD/INT in 10 games (9 Starts) and got nothing in Free Agent market.
I'd venture the Mara's feelings likely explicitly or implicitly played into the valuation of these rookie QBs. They likely would have had to deal with political things with Mara pulling the trigger on it if they even could sell it to him. I'm talking about the possibility of this, you are saying no chance. So prove me wrong.
Shed Gettleman players, get a high draft pick, and start the clock for real with the QB draft pick in '23. I think that's the plan.
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If that is his production, he won't sniff anything near 2/50 on the open market. Mitch Trubisky's final year as a starter in Chicago he was 6-3 with a 16/8 TD/INT in 10 games (9 Starts) and got nothing in Free Agent market.
Nobody was in love with Trubisky in Buffalo. I hope I'm wrong. I'm not saying this is likely just possible.
Let's not pretend like we aren't seeing a new regime with shades of the old one. As others have pointed out it was a big risk already to roll with Jones and no young alternative that could potentially be the QB of the future this year.
It's certainly possible that it's what Terps just said. But as christian pointed out in this thread it gets tough on the margins of these decisions. Jones failing or getting injured makes it easy. Between failure and success there is lots of risk and unknown. I don't know how anyone could at all be sure of what is going to happen with Mara. I think people ignore how close we were to Judge staying. He has no interest in changing any change was fairly obviously forced on him and it is not a difficult projection to say if pressure eases at all he could easily be all over the Jones decision
I think Daboll is a pretty good offensive coach and could stretch Jones to his limit. And if Jones puts up 24/12, 3800 yard season and the Giants win 6 games, I’m afraid of what happens next.
so far a lot of what Beane did in BUF has been foretelling. when Tyrod took them to the playoffs in 2017, with a winning record as BUF starter and a pro bowl appearance 2 years earlier, they still made the decision to trade him in March 2018 before they knew they'd be in position to draft Josh Allen.
For Jones to get an extension I think he'd need to have a monster season way above expectations. 10+ wins, win division, and not the way Hurts won a division last year. Probably would need to turn in a good playoff performance too. Tyrod's last game as a Bill was a 17 for 37, 134 yard, 0 td, 1 int performance in a 3-10 loss against Jax. 2.4 y/a. So imo either Jones shows he's a qb you can win "because of" or he's gone.
To get tagged/shopped perhaps the bar is slightly lower ("win with" a la cousins/garapolo/tannehill) knowing that may be a useful strategic move before knowing what they will be able to get in the draft. but that will also depend on the QB market. they can't tag him without knowing they can move him if they need to, otherwise the better move would be to let him get a cousins type contract in FA from someone else and collect the 3rd round comp pick.
I think Daboll is a pretty good offensive coach and could stretch Jones to his limit. And if Jones puts up 24/12, 3800 yard season and the Giants win 6 games, I’m afraid of what happens next.
christian i’m with you 100%. what happens next is a strong possibility of a DJ extension, with numbers close to what he would have received with the 5th year option.
that is my fear as well, and it will be the real rubber meets the road moment of Joe Schoen’s tenure as GM if it happens.
I'd venture the Mara's feelings likely explicitly or implicitly played into the valuation of these rookie QBs. They likely would have had to deal with political things with Mara pulling the trigger on it if they even could sell it to him. I'm talking about the possibility of this, you are saying no chance. So prove me wrong.
you continue to only see things through the lens of john mara's feelings.
why did the seahawks pass on malik willis 4x and not take any QB?
why did the lions pass on him 4x and not take any qb?
why did the texans pass on him 5x?
why did the panthers not move up 8 picks for him in rd 3 over Corral?
why did the falcons pass on Willis 5x and pick Ridder over him?
why did only 4 QBs go day 1/2 and so many teams needing QBs not take a QB at all the entire draft?
some of those teams' beat writers had Willis in consideration with their top 10 picks and yet they passed, and passed, and passed, and passed some more. Vegas had him in their top 10 odds for 1OA pick.
did they all pass because "Mara's feelings likely explicitly or implicitly played into the valuation of these rookie QBs"?
I'm talking about the "more" influence scenarios more because those are the ones you are completely ignoring. I see your side, you don't see mine because you'd prefer not to.
And that's fine but I think you think I'm being rigid when I'm acknowledging my openness to other possibilities and you aren't at all
Jones is the best of a bad option. And if he continues to suck they'll let Taylor (who also kind of sucks) start. I suspect we're hunting for a QB next year.
this entire discussion is stupidly cyclical as they all are but ill leave it with this - Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll have only extended the contract of 1 player. Dexter Lawrence. That's it. Gms/coaches vote with their dollars and that's the only inherited player they've committed new dollars to while declining/cutting/firing/replacing 20% or more of the roster/front office (not counting the another 20% of the roster that are rookies). that is cold hard fact. everything else is just noise.
Jones is the best of a bad option. And if he continues to suck they'll let Taylor (who also kind of sucks) start. I suspect we're hunting for a QB next year.
that's how i see it. I'd personally have preferred saving the $ on Taylor and drafting Howell in the 4th but obviously that's thanks to hindsight knowing Howell would fall to day 3.
the $ saved on Taylor could have signed another veteran G on the level of Glowinski, which would have given them at least 1 less pick needed on the OL that could have gone elsewhere like to a DB or Nakobe Dean. I'd bet almost any rookie taken day 2 would go on to start more games as a nyg than Taylor will.
Jones is the best of a bad option. And if he continues to suck they'll let Taylor (who also kind of sucks) start. I suspect we're hunting for a QB next year.
Every so often on these threads you get a very good assessment of the situation. This is one of a few of them.
Hired new Asst. GM, JS seemed to run the draft, several people in prominent front office roles have been relieved along with a couple scouts. JS just hired a scout from the Colts. He will hire more people. All these things were after hiring his HC where many seemed to think Mara had a preference for Flores.
Not sure how you are not seeing a pattern here that maybe Mara is in fact stepping away.
That speech told me he’s not ready to be hands off. And if he’s going to stick his hands into anything (even if they are completely off everything else) it’s going to be Jones.
I see progress, I don’t confuse progress with the ideal or dream ever. I think some are jumping all the way to the ideal just because they’ve seen steps in the right direction. I also see those but to not acknowledge how far we have to go from where we were to the ideal ownership situation is also not looking at things honestly
Jones is the best of a bad option. And if he continues to suck they'll let Taylor (who also kind of sucks) start. I suspect we're hunting for a QB next year.
I'm at the same spot. The market spoke and only one QB was considered a first-round risk - Pickett. I was/am very surprised that the rest of the QBs slipped into the third round or later.
In hindsight, I guess the tells were pretty clear that Schoen/Daboll/Mara weren't interested in the 2022 QBs...
-- Signing of Taylor to a fairly material contract.
-- Comments that Taylor was indeed going to be the back-up to Jones (they weren't smoke).
-- Mara coming out before the draft and essentially blaming himself for Jones's underwhelming three year peformance.
I would have rolled the dice in the second round for Willis/Corral. And declared an open tryout for the starting position. If Willis/Corral didn't look the part, then cut bait and move aggressively for a QB in 2023.
Alas, a pipedream... ;)
Do what he’s always done. He has yet to play a full season, win or produce productivity. I don’t think that will all of a sudden change under Daboll.
For as well as his rookie year is perceived by some, a chunk of those stats came against TB, NYJ & WFT in 3 games.
Think about what you expected in year 2 for Daniel had he shown some progression, this team is better than that one too, need to factor that.
That will not be good enough for me. I need to see near year 3 Josh Allen productivty for me to want to sign Jones. That is why are seeing so many hear say, " Even if Daniel had a good year..." It really needs to be better than good for a second contract.
Think about what you expected in year 2 for Daniel had he shown some progression, this team is better than that one too, need to factor that.
That will not be good enough for me. I need to see near year 3 Josh Allen productivty for me to want to sign Jones. That is why are seeing so many hear say, " Even if Daniel had a good year..." It really needs to be better than good for a second contract.
That stats will be there for a NFL starting QB with a very good supporting cast and coaching. The standard needs to be raised. You need to see a few special plays a game under stressful situations/big moments. Stats don't show this but this is the only scenario where Jones earns more time unless they feel they can't upgrade next year imv.
Think about what you expected in year 2 for Daniel had he shown some progression, this team is better than that one too, need to factor that.
That will not be good enough for me. I need to see near year 3 Josh Allen productivty for me to want to sign Jones. That is why are seeing so many hear say, " Even if Daniel had a good year..." It really needs to be better than good for a second contract.
Goff/Cousins better years are like 4,400 passing yards, 35 TDs and 12 INTs, plus a couple of rushing TDs.
good luck...
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Jones will put a lot of stats this year. I will wager with anyone it is going to look like Goff & Cousins better years. There will be approximately 130 passes thrown into the no cover zone, like the Chiefs did when they finally started rolling. Single read, quick passes into the hands of playmakers in space. Throw the last 2 years out the window completely. Garret was stone age.
Think about what you expected in year 2 for Daniel had he shown some progression, this team is better than that one too, need to factor that.
That will not be good enough for me. I need to see near year 3 Josh Allen productivty for me to want to sign Jones. That is why are seeing so many hear say, " Even if Daniel had a good year..." It really needs to be better than good for a second contract.
Goff/Cousins better years are like 4,400 passing yards, 35 TDs and 12 INTs, plus a couple of rushing TDs.
good luck...
Systems can make average QBs put up misleading stats.
Teams have chosen to move on from Cousins AND Goff.
Jones needs a monster year to stay.
Otherwise, forget it...
Additionally, Jones is playing on an offense with very little talent. If it goes well it'll be a surprise.
Additionally, Jones is playing on an offense with very little talent. If it goes well it'll be a surprise.
I have seen enough Jones passes to know I don't want him.
I also saw Jones under Shurmur.
In a one read system, Jones put up reasonable stats for a rookie.
The OL is better this year. The playmakers actually fit the system and Daboll/Kafka are better than Shurmur. 40 Percent of Barkley's carries are going to be completions instead. The faithful are going to go crazy, the will be screaming how right they were.
What do you think Mara does with 68% 29 TDs a couple rushing TDs 13 ints 4k yards in 17 games. You and both know in a Kafka/Dabool system that might rush for an entire half, that is nothing.
I'm actually not worried about this. I believe not picking up his option sealed his fate here; I'm a bit annoyed we have to endure another scholarship year but overall I feel pretty good that Schoen isn't a moron.
Only a moron would pay Jones more than backup money. I think we're ok.
I'm actually not worried about this. I believe not picking up his option sealed his fate here; I'm a bit annoyed we have to endure another scholarship year but overall I feel pretty good that Schoen isn't a moron.
Only a moron would pay Jones more than backup money. I think we're ok.
I’ve got nothing against Jones, I just think moving on quicker is better for the franchise. He’s an extension of a prior front office. No one here will care when Golladay is cut next year, and he actually has produced at this level. What’s the difference?
I’ve got nothing against Jones, I just think moving on quicker is better for the franchise. He’s an extension of a prior front office. No one here will care when Golladay is cut next year, and he actually has produced at this level. What’s the difference?
Well 2020 doesn't count because of COVID and 21 doesn't count because of Judge and Garrett, so 2022 is really Jones second year
Besides his talent issues, Jones is a major injury risk. I think he is out injured by October and makes Schoen’s decision for him.
They aren't[ both right. NGD is arguing "smoke and mirrors."
He says DJ is the worst starting QB in the NFL. Yet he also says you can't trust 2023. Well if you have the worst starting QB and you’re under a major rebuild, then doesn’t it stand to reason that there is a good chance that you are going to suck?
And even his comment about DJ; it's without context when he says "The worst starter in the NFL." The Giants had an OL that was ranked by PFF 30th and 31st the past two years. Their WR's were either hurt or sucked as was their TE's. And their RB was always hurt. So even if you are slightly below average QB and you have a pathetic coach, doesn't it stand to reason that you are going to be awful with all this other CRAP?
And he is making a big dela about the starting QB. Let's call them both backup QB's for argument’s sake. Since when is it a big dela to announce that you are going to go with the younger QB on a rebuilding team???????????????
When you blow away all the smoke NGD is throwing out there, it just comes down to a rebuilding team going with the younger "backup QB" to start the season rather than the older one to see if there is anything in the tank considering the overall crappy hand he's been dealt.
And if that doesn’t work, just like many teams in the NFL that didn’t get a QB with the top 2 picks, they strive to find one (and get one) outside of a top 2. That's a pretty common practice that he and some others don’t seem to understand especially for a team that is rebuilding with the worst QB in the NFL as he states.
In summary 1-- Worst QB in NFL. 2-- Team Rebuilding. 3-- A defense not good. -- And yet you can't plan to have a very good draft pick in 2023 with all of this? Seriously?
I’ve got nothing against Jones, I just think moving on quicker is better for the franchise. He’s an extension of a prior front office. No one here will care when Golladay is cut next year, and he actually has produced at this level. What’s the difference?
Are you kidding with this post of yours? OFC you have something against Jones. Stop that nonsense. You're exactly starting what you have against him and many of your other posts. You think he sucks. So stop with the bullshit.
But are you serious using Gettleman as na example???? Arguably the worst GM the Giants ever had and you are quoting what he thinks? Yeah right. You got nothing against Jones. Thanks for the comedy. C'mon!!!!!!
Okay you think he sucks. You want him gone. But using Gettleman as a case in point???????????????????
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Maybe both of you are right?
Besides his talent issues, Jones is a major injury risk. I think he is out injured by October and makes Schoen’s decision for him.
They aren't[ both right. NGD is arguing "smoke and mirrors."
He says DJ is the worst starting QB in the NFL. Yet he also says you can't trust 2023. Well if you have the worst starting QB and you’re under a major rebuild, then doesn’t it stand to reason that there is a good chance that you are going to suck?
And even his comment about DJ; it's without context when he says "The worst starter in the NFL." The Giants had an OL that was ranked by PFF 30th and 31st the past two years. Their WR's were either hurt or sucked as was their TE's. And their RB was always hurt. So even if you are slightly below average QB and you have a pathetic coach, doesn't it stand to reason that you are going to be awful with all this other CRAP?
And he is making a big dela about the starting QB. Let's call them both backup QB's for argument’s sake. Since when is it a big dela to announce that you are going to go with the younger QB on a rebuilding team???????????????
When you blow away all the smoke NGD is throwing out there, it just comes down to a rebuilding team going with the younger "backup QB" to start the season rather than the older one to see if there is anything in the tank considering the overall crappy hand he's been dealt.
And if that doesn’t work, just like many teams in the NFL that didn’t get a QB with the top 2 picks, they strive to find one (and get one) outside of a top 2. That's a pretty common practice that he and some others don’t seem to understand especially for a team that is rebuilding with the worst QB in the NFL as he states.
In summary 1-- Worst QB in NFL. 2-- Team Rebuilding. 3-- A defense not good. -- And yet you can't plan to have a very good draft pick in 2023 with all of this? Seriously?
Not sure what your issue is lately but you seem quite angry. Is everything ok?
Nothing smoke and mirrors about my argument just certain people refusing to acknowledge signs that Mara an incredibly hands on owner isn't ready to be completely hands off. I can't believe that is something that I even have to point out but hey, some people just want to look at the good sides of this team. As for some particular points you seem completely lost on.
1) I've never said I expect the team or defense to be bad. I actually have higher expectations for them than I have in many years because we don't have a bunch of clowns in the building.
2) Saying Daniel Jones wouldn't start for another team doesn't mean I think he's the worst starting QB. But who exactly do you think he's better than? Davis Mills had more Y/A and for all the complaints about the OL a higher sack %. Don't think ATL would prefer Jones and his $8M hit to Mariota and his 4.25. Drew Lock also had a higher Y/A last year on a higher sack %. You act like I'm saying something outrageous with that but Jones has been real bad. Teams would not be lining up to start him in any way shape or form.
3) Many people on this thread get what I'm saying, it's hard to agree with "smoke and mirrors" getting rid of Jones was absolutely an option and an option that many GMs that want a real clean slate would jump at. Hard to think that was a real option for the Giants the way the owner fawns over the QB. And victimizes him. Talk about a start quality, someone everyone is telling you to pity! Give me a break
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Not sure what your issue is lately but you seem quite angry. Is everything ok?
I wasn't angry. My post to you wasn't any worse than you calling Eric "rigid" and how he is "narrowly thinking." Along with telling him he is "ignoring your points and inventing new ones."
First off, when you say Jones wouldn't start for another team, how is that not suggesting he is the worst starting QB in the league? And your other questions to me about this- why are they relevant? I've implied/stated to you that the team is going to suck. So why would you think it relevant to ask me about which QB's he might be better than? I’m acknowledging he is most likely a goner.
Anyhow, you say on here that you don’t expect the team to be that bad because the clowns are gone. SO you naturally expect better performance. Yet why wouldn't this also apply to the QB too? Why do you expect overall the team would be raised from God-Awful ot "not that bad" but not the QB?
And-- if you say that you don’t expect the team to be that bad and they do become "that bad," then you would admit that you were wrong? You have on this thread posts saying "People seem confident that we will be able to cut bait if he has a less than great season I’m not so confident." -- Well “Yes,” what if some of us are much more confident than you? Then the TT issue vs Jones is irrelevant, and the Mara issue is "mostly" irrelevant, right?
And when you say - "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." What if those of us that feel/felt strongly the Giants were going to be bad and thus in a position to draft a high ranking QB- then your generic comment of “Don't put all your eggs in one basket" would be wrong, correct?
And then to further that, if those of us are right that the Giants are going to suck, then your argument about not playing the younger guy is thrown out the window too, right? Why wouldn't a team that we know is going to suck go with a younger player whom by your own admission had piss-poor coaching throughout his career? You're willing to pray on a laer round QB, why not pray for a younger QB?
So when you make comments about for example the team is not that bad in one breath, then in another manner you tell Eric "Your side actually ignores data we have on hopes that things have changed. Hope is not sound logic." Much of your argument is built on HOPE (and prayer). You understand you are in an extreme minority that think the giants aren't a bad team, right? That's why I've said your comments are "smoke and mirrors." ****You're making a way too big of a deal about two backup QB's and Mara, while "probably" incorrectly assessing how bad this team is going to be. And as a result, you did say you would have drafted a QB this year - imo another wrong move because imo you're relying on nothing more than hope and prayer - the very thing you accuse others of.
You're spending hours defending a bad player.
It continues to be odd that you seem to think you are finding holes in my logic when those holes have been created from you making massive assumptions about what I'm actually saying.
1) You seem to have a real problem parsing the data in my words.
2) I don't know where you come off trying to critique me for saying I don't think Jones starts for another team. Either tell me the other teams he'd start for or you actually are not making a point at all.
3) I completely agree with you "playing the younger guy" when you suck is by far the best decision. But you are missing the most important part of playing the younger guy. Striking gold on cap savings if you find a viable QB. That's why playing a rookie is the most essential. Jones is actually the COMPLETE opposite of that. He's a guy that who in the absolute best case scenario you'd be paying someone with a history of injuries with ONE out of 4 seasons being any good, and paying that player handsomely. You and many underate the importance of the cap, which is puzzling considering how it's fucking us this year. When your team is no good which you seem quite settled they will be all the more reason to try to set up this arbitrage opportunity that would be quite frankly the easiest and fastest way to pull us out a the gutter a CHEAP viable starter. That's the thing. All things equal if we have a rookie play the exact same season as Jones does this year they would have been way, way more valuable than Jones going forward. This is a capped league man, "young vs. old" matter a lot less than how much a player costs. And especially at QB from a game theory standpoint giving snaps to any player that could be a hit on value in the following seasons has potential to be great.
Jones, no matter how you slice it won't be on a good value next year because at best you are paying top dollar for a QB that you know needs his team and coaches to elevate him to be any good. Why wouldn't you prefer to have someone that doesn't need that, that can be even better with those same players and coaches? The stockholm syndrome in some of you is unbelievable
Jones, no matter how you slice it won't be on a good value next year because at best you are paying top dollar for a QB that you know needs his team and coaches to elevate him to be any good. Why wouldn't you prefer to have someone that doesn't need that, that can be even better with those same players and coaches? The stockholm syndrome in some of you is unbelievable
You can't sum it up much better than this! Well stated.
It continues to be odd that you seem to think you are finding holes in my logic when those holes have been created from you making massive assumptions about what I'm actually saying.
1) You seem to have a real problem parsing the data in my words.
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I've never said I expect the team or defense to be bad. I actually have higher expectations for them than I have in many years because we don't have a bunch of clowns in the building.
I have higher expectations than the absolutely putrid ones I've had for the team in the past. Daniel Jones is my biggest problem with the team. And you want to talk about bad projection given the data? There is zero data in college or pros to suggest Daniel Jones is going to produce good stats. Zero. You are inventing data that isn't even a result of a linear distribution, he's not on the upswing there is no logical methodology to project better data. That is pure hope, expecting a fairly fixed pattern of underachievement to change just because a coach changes. It's possible but certainly not at all probable or something to be banked on. What am I talking about then? I loved the focus on depth this offseason. If you ask me our biggest problems have been the way injuries hurt us more than any other team and that is a very logical reason I have higher hopes for the season. The over-confident clown brigade we had here before had a terrible proficiency at scouting their own team. That is a tangible logical change in expectation, not the ability to suddenly turn Jones a player with very bad pocket awareness and ability to read defenses and process information. That is something you can alleviate the downsides with but that is not a fixable problem and it is one that Sy pointed out and has been clear and consistent in his play for years. That is a strong and consistent data set that you are projecting a break from so yeah, it's easy to criticize you for that kind of wishful thinking.
2) I don't know where you come off trying to critique me for saying I don't think Jones starts for another team. Either tell me the other teams he'd start for or you actually are not making a point at all.
3) I completely agree with you "playing the younger guy" when you suck is by far the best decision. But you are missing the most important part of playing the younger guy. Striking gold on cap savings if you find a viable QB. That's why playing a rookie is the most essential. Jones is actually the COMPLETE opposite of that. He's a guy that who in the absolute best case scenario you'd be paying someone with a history of injuries with ONE out of 4 seasons being any good, and paying that player handsomely. You and many underate the importance of the cap, which is puzzling considering how it's fucking us this year. When your team is no good which you seem quite settled they will be all the more reason to try to set up this arbitrage opportunity that would be quite frankly the easiest and fastest way to pull us out a the gutter a CHEAP viable starter. That's the thing. All things equal if we have a rookie play the exact same season as Jones does this year they would have been way, way more valuable than Jones going forward. This is a capped league man, "young vs. old" matter a lot less than how much a player costs. And especially at QB from a game theory standpoint giving snaps to any player that could be a hit on value in the following seasons has potential to be great.
Jones, no matter how you slice it won't be on a good value next year because at best you are paying top dollar for a QB that you know needs his team and coaches to elevate him to be any good. Why wouldn't you prefer to have someone that doesn't need that, that can be even better with those same players and coaches? The stockholm syndrome in some of you is unbelievable
What you are posting to me continues to be all smoke and mirrors. Just like when you said I made an angry post. Just like as you keep asking me about which teams Jones would start for when I told you DJ is probably goner. SO why do you insist on asking me who he might replace? It's because you are using smoke and mirrors. You realize I never agreed or disagreed with your comment, right? So if the team is going to suck and ultimately the Giants get a in great position to draft a quality Qb next year, which has bene argument, then why do you think it be important enough to ask me who the dead-duck QB (Jones) might replace on another team?
Bottomline is - that if we blow away all the smoke- the big difference is that you don't think the Giants will be that bad. That's fine. But for those of us that think we're gona suck, some of us are going to think your points are way off the map, right? For example, you are talking about "Value." For the QB that is a dead-duck which most of us believe after this season, then who cares about QB value for a dead-duck QB (or the backup TT or that backup late rd pick you apparently wanted) when in 2023 you're going to be near the top in the draft getting a potential quality "Cap-Saving CHEAP) young QB?
Next year is the year the Giants are going to have their cheap cap-saving QB. This year you go with the younger QB. And it would be a huge bonus if you can somehow STRIKE GOLD.