In his pre-draft evaluation of Daniel Jones, Sy'56 compared him, physically, to Ryan Tannehill, so I'm going to use Tannehill as a benchmark, with the understanding that statistically he's been a better QB than Jones in their respective first four years.
Can you field a competitive team with a Ryan Tannehill at the helm? Absolutely, provided every other facet of your team is strong, or at least above average. Good skill players, good offensive line, good defense and special teams. You'll be competitive. You might even make the playoffs, either by winning your division or as a wild card, if you can stay relatively healthy and get a favorable bounce or two as the season progresses.
Can you field a championship team, though? Probably not, and therein lies the dilemma. The proverbial "game manager" can keep a good team competitive, provided it stays good, but the odds are he won't be able to elevate that team to a championship level. In today's NFL, you need a QB with elite-level skill to do that.
Daniel Jones may be good enough to keep the Giants out of the cellar with a good, strong supporting cast around him, but I doubt he'll ever be able to put the team on his back, if need be, and carry it to The Promised Land.
If all you want is to not be a complete joke, you can keep him and build around him as best you can. If you want to add another Lombardi Trophy or two, you move on, and replace him as soon as you can, "by any means necessary," with a much, much better QB.
Whining? Moi?
It seems to me that the ones doing the most whining are those that don't want to hear any criticism of their beloved "Danny Dimes."
My big boy pants are on, and they fit just fine. I imagine you have trouble pulling yours up with all of the excuses for Jones in your pockets.
It's like comparing stats of players. There is so much more to it. Eli won 2 SB's but was not a "Fantasy QB" dream because of the offense he played in. How many Super Bowls did Brees win with his Fantasy football stats?
I want to see DJ succeed because that means we are that much closer to returning to championship football. We don't have to take another chance on another QB, and maybe sticking with that one too long because the new brass doesn't want to admit failure.
So far we know nothing from this new management group.
This DJ subject has been beaten to death. Let's let it play out.
We all act like JS and BD are some perennial championship football leaders. That they have done this before. They have won nothing in my mind. To me the jury is out on them too.
What did Coughlin used to say? Talk is cheap, play the game.
When given the time DJ makes great throws unfortunately that has not been that often. If it doesn't work out this year next year is a much stronger class than this one. After a while these threads do get old.
But I think the comp is still valid, used as a benchmark for a certain level of talent. Peak Jones is comparable to Peak Tannehill, in my opinion. Good, but not quite good enough.
college qb - ( New Window )
Each has an offense tailored to what they can do. Some need less tailoring - Brady and Rodgers, some need more - Mahomes and Jackson. (Mahomes can do both)
Why did Jones play much better under Shurmur and so poorly under Judge? Shurmur could tailor an offense for Jones while Garrett could not. Shurmur could hide Jones deficiencies making reads, Garrett did not. Under Shurmur Jones problems were turnovers(mainly fumbling) and injury.
I do not think Jones is the answer, but with Daboll and Kafka, I fully expect that Jones will be placed in a position where his skills will be utilized correctly. Does that mean Jones turns the corner? I doubt it. But I do think the offense will at least be able to move the ball and score. Will it be enough for consistent wins? No. But they should be at least competitive in most games.
But I think the comp is still valid, used as a benchmark for a certain level of talent. Peak Jones is comparable to Peak Tannehill, in my opinion. Good, but not quite good enough.
I hear you, but Tannerhill was never in the position that DJ was in early in his career.
Physical traits they are not even the same. DJ is a better deep ball thrower and a better overall athlete.
The only physical trait they share is they are tall lanky white guys.
But DJ is throwing up 90lb dumb bells in presses. That is not easy to do. Kind of reminds me of Simms when he started working out after all his injuries in the beginning of his career.
How many LB's were compared to the next LT? or the next whoever. They are never right because each payer is unique. One of a kind.
This rebuild will take some time. I’m just hoping for a competitive team this season.
This rebuild will take some time. I’m just hoping for a competitive team this season.
You'll probably get it, although there will no doubt be some growing pains, especially in the Secondary if Bradberry doesn't come back.
Anyway, I could say I'd just leave it up to Schoen and Daboll to find that "much, much better QB" if they want to move on from Jones, but I wonder about John Mara's influence. I've said before that they're going to have to drag him away from Jones kicking and screaming, and I still believe that's going to be the case.
If they think he can be the long term solution, then they will sign him to a new deal.
If they don't, they move on.
Where is the dilemma?
Hard for me to come up with a championship QB who did not have some really talented players along for the ride.
Assessing the Giants QB situation on a Giants message board isn't whining. It's food for thought and fuel for debate. If you can't understand that then you might want to reassess your own wardrobe, because it appears that your pants don't fit the "big boy" category at all.
If they think he can be the long term solution, then they will sign him to a new deal.
If they don't, they move on.
Where is the dilemma?
For me it's John Mara's influence. It's getting a good, but not great year from Jones and sticking with him because of that. It's settling for good, but not great, when great should be sought for the position.
me personally, DJ has never put up the numbers - at any level of competition - to suggest he can compete with the best in this league. the odds of him having an NFL elite QB a ha moment at this stage in his career are astronomically low. he doesn’t have good vision in the pocket. he has poor instincts with the ball in his hands. he shrinks in the red zone. QBs don’t come back from that.
at the end of the day, he hasn’t been extended and he has one year left to prove he can be the guy (not just Tannehill). we’ll get our answer soon enough.
Mike Groh has a lot of experience coaching WRs. Bobby Johnson has 3 years experience as OL coach at Buffalo. For the rest, pro experience level is like Judge’s staff. Even Kafka only has 2 years experience as passing game coordinator. Most of the rest have college experience, “assistant coach” experience, or maybe 1 year experience at the position they are coaching.
That is bullshit. If Schoen thinks it is time for a new QB, Mara will say nothing and do nothing. Schoen just turned down the 5th year option on Jones. That means Jones is one foot out the door - didn't hear anything about Mara complaining. While Mara may have an affinity for some players and would like to keep them, that does not mean Schoen needs to do so.
Everything said about JM this off season proved to be wrong. Why continue saying these things?
Hard for me to come up with a championship QB who did not have some really talented players along for the ride.
Eli in 2011 put the team on his back, with a dynamic trio of WR's, a defense that came into its own down the stretch, but an almost non-existent rushing attack. He was challenged to prove he was elite and he met that challenge.
The challenge for Jones is to prove that he's competent, which is a pretty low bar.
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....... but I wonder about John Mara's influence. I've said before that they're going to have to drag him away from Jones kicking and screaming, and I still believe that's going to be the case.
That is bullshit. If Schoen thinks it is time for a new QB, Mara will say nothing and do nothing. Schoen just turned down the 5th year option on Jones. That means Jones is one foot out the door - didn't hear anything about Mara complaining. While Mara may have an affinity for some players and would like to keep them, that does not mean Schoen needs to do so.
Everything said about JM this off season proved to be wrong. Why continue saying these things?
Not picking up Jones' 5th year option was the smart move, but I don't think it was definitive when it comes to how John Mara feels about him.
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"putting his team on his back?" I'd be interested to know the detail to this.
Hard for me to come up with a championship QB who did not have some really talented players along for the ride.
Eli in 2011 put the team on his back, with a dynamic trio of WR's, a defense that came into its own down the stretch, but an almost non-existent rushing attack. He was challenged to prove he was elite and he met that challenge.
The challenge for Jones is to prove that he's competent, which is a pretty low bar.
Agree that year was Eli's best with all the comebacks, but as you said, he had three dynamic WRs. Jones has none and never did have any...
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"putting his team on his back?" I'd be interested to know the detail to this.
Hard for me to come up with a championship QB who did not have some really talented players along for the ride.
Eli in 2011 put the team on his back, with a dynamic trio of WR's, a defense that came into its own down the stretch, but an almost non-existent rushing attack. He was challenged to prove he was elite and he met that challenge.
The challenge for Jones is to prove that he's competent, which is a pretty low bar.
Pretty true for all the champion QB's. Lots of talented players around them and I agree with the team components you mentioned for he Eli in 2011.
Eli was pretty much always a outstanding QB. The elite level is another I often question. What Eli was elite in was courage and playing big when needed most in addition to outstanding QB skills imv.
When I said "by any means necessary," I was talking about next year, either in free agency or preferably in the draft.
Not picking up Jones' 5th year option was the smart move, but I don't think it was definitive when it comes to how John Mara feels about him.
That is not the point you made. Mara likes a lot of players. That does not mean he will intervene with cutting them. If Schoen decides Jones is not the guy they need, Jones will be let go. JM may personally like Jones, but he won't interfere and he won't be kicking and screaming.
Sure, if the talent is really good that seems like a fair take on Jones. The bigger issue then becomes cost. The rookie QB contract has proved the best path for teams winning SB's percentage wise by a large margin. I think they wind up resetting it.
However, I don't believe just because a coach is good, they can make any player a champion. Especially a QB. It's much too important of a position to just be average. I feel it's the combination of the right player for the right staff. Daboll had it with Allen in Buffalo. Jones is not even close to Allen. He is close to Tannehill, who will never win you a championship IMO. I think the Titans know that by now.
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In comment 15701832 section125 said:
Not picking up Jones' 5th year option was the smart move, but I don't think it was definitive when it comes to how John Mara feels about him.
That is not the point you made. Mara likes a lot of players. That does not mean he will intervene with cutting them. If Schoen decides Jones is not the guy they need, Jones will be let go. JM may personally like Jones, but he won't interfere and he won't be kicking and screaming.
Cap, his QB is not like any other player, especially if the QB is Eli Manning 2.0 in his mind (and I believe that to be the case). He's said the Giants haven't done right by Jones, and he's probably correct, which is why I believe that he's going to have to be shown that even "doing right" and surrounding him with a stronger supporting cast, won't be enough to warrant keeping him around.
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We can win with him with talent around him. But he isn’t going ti elevate the team so in years where there are injuries or not good talent around him, well we’ve already seen that.
Sure, if the talent is really good that seems like a fair take on Jones. The bigger issue then becomes cost. The rookie QB contract has proved the best path for teams winning SB's percentage wise by a large margin. I think they wind up resetting it.
While his own injuries and the fumbling issue has held him back from a good measure of evaluation, he’s had declining talent around him every year since he’s been here.
Presumably better coaching, better talent around him this year, will presumably let us know if he can elevate a team. If his injuries or fumbles continue, or if he is not scene as anything more than a Tannehill, we’ll be picking one of the 3-6 QBs that should be available in the ‘23 draft.
As I’ve said, I’m in the vast minority that believes he’s more Dimes than Pennies.
We’ll find out either way.
a curse in that fans - and perhaps the owner himself! - think that’s the business model to shoot for.
Pretty sure Andrew Thomas was the best player on offense last year.
Cap, his QB is not like any other player, especially if the QB is Eli Manning 2.0 in his mind (and I believe that to be the case). He's said the Giants haven't done right by Jones, and he's probably correct, which is why I believe that he's going to have to be shown that even "doing right" and surrounding him with a stronger supporting cast, won't be enough to warrant keeping him around.
Meh. They absolutely have not done right by him. But I do not think it will matter. I do not see the signs of redzone success or making that crucial 2 minute drive to win.
Mara has gotten his head handed to him enough in the past 5 years, that he will finally accept reality(well I hope so).
If they think he can be the long term solution, then they will sign him to a new deal.
If they don't, they move on.
Where is the dilemma?
Same, it’s pretty cut and dry at this point.
Do you give him a four year extension and pay him $30M per year? Given three years of his production, what does he need to do in year 4 for you to say “our QB question is answered?” Do you franchise or transition tag him and pay him $20M on year to year contracts and kick the decision down the road?
In my mind, the only way you even consider talking about retaining him is if he can show top 10 production this year. He is being paid fairly on his rookie contract for what he produces. He hasn’t earned any kind of raise of commitment until his game transforms dramatically. The time for him to show progress or improvement is over. This year he is only about franchise QB production.
Jones has the right temperament, and athleticism for the position, but the biggest problem with him has been pocket awareness and processing time of what’s going on around him. Some QBs just have that innate ability, and he doesn’t IMO. That said, I think they will be the scheme to his strengths and get the ball out of his hands quicker to give him that chance to succeed.
I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t think Jones is any good so as to not be accused of being a “Jones lover”. But at the same time, I cannot figure out why fans keep repeating this line of everything has to be perfect for Jones. Perfect? Wtf? How about giving him everything just average? Hell, how about simply everything slightly below average? I’d settle for that! Or how about just giving him SOMETHING average. Anything. His OL has been a dumpster fire. So has the WR group, And the coaching. These three things couldn’t be any worse than they have been. There’s an enormous gap between everything needing to be perfect and what he’s had to work with.
These aren’t excuses. They are facts. Like I said, I still don’t think he’s the answer, but completely ignoring the shitty ass situation he’s had is disingenuous. At best.