In his pre-draft evaluation of Daniel Jones, Sy'56 compared him, physically, to Ryan Tannehill, so I'm going to use Tannehill as a benchmark, with the understanding that statistically he's been a better QB than Jones in their respective first four years.
Can you field a competitive team with a Ryan Tannehill at the helm? Absolutely, provided every other facet of your team is strong, or at least above average. Good skill players, good offensive line, good defense and special teams. You'll be competitive. You might even make the playoffs, either by winning your division or as a wild card, if you can stay relatively healthy and get a favorable bounce or two as the season progresses.
Can you field a championship team, though? Probably not, and therein lies the dilemma. The proverbial "game manager" can keep a good team competitive, provided it stays good, but the odds are he won't be able to elevate that team to a championship level. In today's NFL, you need a QB with elite-level skill to do that.
Daniel Jones may be good enough to keep the Giants out of the cellar with a good, strong supporting cast around him, but I doubt he'll ever be able to put the team on his back, if need be, and carry it to The Promised Land.
If all you want is to not be a complete joke, you can keep him and build around him as best you can. If you want to add another Lombardi Trophy or two, you move on, and replace him as soon as you can, "by any means necessary," with a much, much better QB.
If there is an upgrade option you find it.
There wasn’t this year so we are hoping he develops. That was even with two elite draft picks.
Now we wait another year and hope we see development or cut ties.
Nothing available this year that was a major upgrade from Jones. That may be sad but it’s true.
Isn’t that the dilemma?
Jones is a Much better athlete? In what world? Ryan Tannehill was a WR for most of his college career. He is an exceptional athlete.
Sorry you feel that way.
Linked below is a conversation between Pat Traina and an Oregon Ducks blogger about Kayvon Thibodeaux. I hope that makes the day a little brighter for you.
Link - ( New Window )
But how many times has the guy just simply missed open receivers when he was not under duress? How many times has he taken a check down when a play was there to be made? How many times does he need to lower his head into a LB 3 yards down the field on 3rd and 12 and missed games?
“There is not a quick mind here.”
-Sy in his draft summary of Jones before we took him
That statement is the primary reason why so many suggest everything needs to be perfect for Jones. The game has to be made very simple for him. I expect we will see a spread offense this year that is designed to help Jones with pre-snap reads so that he is thinking less in the pocket. He has the physical tools to be an NFL QB. The biggest flaw in his game is between his ears, and it has been there since college.
As far as doing something immediately at the QB position, there really is no viable option but to wait and draft one next year. Paying a Kings Ransom for a QB for 2022 doesn't make sense.
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Same shit, different day
Sorry you feel that way.
Linked below is a conversation between Pat Traina and an Oregon Ducks blogger about Kayvon Thibodeaux. I hope that makes the day a little brighter for you. Link - ( New Window )
Thanks, I've already seen it.
Go ahead an continue your DJ bitching and whining.
And, before you jump to conclusions, like you have already done, I'm not DJ fan. Just tired of of all the complaining and crying on this board over the SAME SHIT.
there's a lot of teams with a dilemma.
I think that approach is flawed. There simply aren't a lot of elite QBs around, and it's rare that one is available, either through the draft at your spot, or through FA.
What can be reasonably expected is to find a good one. IF DJ turns in a good season, you look to re-sign him. The dilemma is whether one season is enough to lock in big resources on him. I think he'd need to turn in a great season to pass on looking to upgrade. See below for what having a good season does for opportunity to upgrade. Good enough to show promise is not good enough, in my book.
If you have a so-so QB, and have a chance to upgrade, you do so. No dilemma. The problem is that such QBs tend to get you to middle of the pack draft position, and good QB prospects don't drop that low.
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In comment 15701880 ZogZerg said:
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Same shit, different day
Sorry you feel that way.
Linked below is a conversation between Pat Traina and an Oregon Ducks blogger about Kayvon Thibodeaux. I hope that makes the day a little brighter for you. Link - ( New Window )
Thanks, I've already seen it.
Go ahead an continue your DJ bitching and whining.
And, before you jump to conclusions, like you have already done, I'm not DJ fan. Just tired of of all the complaining and crying on this board over the SAME SHIT.
Why are you yelling? Don't like the thread? Then don't read it. There's certainly no need to reply to it if you're that tired of the subject. Maybe lay off the caffeine for a while? Hey, I'm just trying to help.
there's a lot of teams with a dilemma.
It is league-wide problem. Look at the Superbowl QBs for past 10 years. Yes, there are a couple dogs in there, but they are either top 5 QBs or guys that had one crazy good year
Anyone who thinks Jones was the Giants’ best player last year literally doesn’t know what they are talking about.
He is terrible
Go somewhere else then
That would be some defensive performance to carry Jones to a Super Bowl victory
Stafford had an insanely good year last year
The dilemma was probably 2 or 3 years ago.
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The last decade has seen wins by Joe Flacco, the corpse of Peyton Manning, and Nick Foles (puke). Even Stafford last year is arguable.
Stafford had an insanely good year last year
He sure did, but is he "elite"? Maybe he is. But the other guys sure weren't.
I’m hoping at this point next season there will be a new QB under center, and we will all be brimming with excitement. Not a Jones hater on a personal level, I just haven’t seen any evidence that he’ll turn things around enough to even compare with Tannehill.
Just looking at the last 10 years (which I think is fair) are you suggesting that; Joe Flacco, Nick Foles, and Matthew Stafford are Elite? Cam Newton, Ryan, Goff, Garoppolo, and Kaepernick all made it to the SB. Are they "Elite" as well or do we only count SB wins?
Look, you do need a great QB but even if the Giants could get that great QB, they will do nothing behind a badly coached, below-average talent, and often injured supporting cast. Fact: No veteran elite QB can overcome the Giants' past deficiencies and no rookie QB can develop in the same situation. This makes the entire "replace Jones now" argument mute. Why do people keep bringing this up?
They haven't played a game yet under this new regime, players, etc. Until they show an at least average game plan, pass blocking, run blocking, healthy receiving core, receivers that can get open (separation), and maybe actually win 50/50 balls at least 50% of the time, this constant argument is pointless
I'm not saying Jones is the future at QB. I'm not saying Jones isn't the future at QB. I'm saying,
"Stop putting the cart before the horse"!
At the end of the season, if they decide to move on, then they have to figure out what to do. I'm sure they've discussed options (there's a reason they signed Tyrod for 2 years).
Until then, there's no point in handwringing about it, even though a bunch of you will never stop.
Tannehill also had a lot less time playing the position and entered the NFL older because he'd been a WR convert, but he and Jones both seemed to check all the same tangible boxes. if you compare Jones to tannehill's miami stats it's very comparable - qb rtg, y/a, comp%, QBR, number of coaches/OCs cycled through.
Tannehill is not a guy i'd want to have under contract long term but i think there's still some chance Jones is better if maximized in a system better than he has been to date. age 25 Tannehill isn't a player i'd totally give up on. the current situation with jones is perfectly reasonable for a team heading in a new direction. 1 year to show he can lead that way or he can't.
on what planet can any realistic evaluation be given.
O-line which can neither support a running game nor give time to survey the field.
No WRs providing superior quantity or quality of catches.
No red zone reliable go-to, run or pass.
Least creative OC in the history of mankind (but would probably win if he had positional superiority across the field).
Given the above, give a realistic evaluation of Brady.
If he plays well and shows the potential to be a franchise QB he will be the Giants QB moving forward.
It is really quite simple.
There will be no grey area.
There are a lot of good options in the draft next year, so the Giants will be in a great position to find Jones successor next year.
Give me Daniel Jones, or give me death! 4/18/2019 - ( New Window )
If he plays well and shows the potential to be a franchise QB he will be the Giants QB moving forward.
It is really quite simple.
There will be no grey area.
There are a lot of good options in the draft next year, so the Giants will be in a great position to find Jones successor next year.
I agree but there is grey area.
How “well” does a QB have to play to warrant big cash? How much is the franchise tag for a QB? A ton right? How much would it cost to extend him? Still a ton right? I don’t want to dedicate big money to a guy who played “well” for a season. You’d be falling into a trap, I think. That’s the only uncertainty I see.
We're so used to Eli being so durable. I'd pass on Jones at this point no matter what. He could be good this year, but we would always need a good backup because of his injury history.
I think he'll improve this year, but he's a place holder until the Giants get a better QB in 2023 or 2024.
Is Klaatu even whining? It’s a Giants message board and it’s the off-season. Chill. You don’t have to click on these posts if it bothers you so much. Start a post about something else if you want to talk about something else. Klaatu has been around here a long time, and I rarely see him whine.
Since talking about it won't change anything, may as well just shut the forum down, or make it NFT only until the season starts
I know but it’s the offseason. There isn’t a ton to talk about that hasn’t already been talked about.
HA! That was a good one.
Just remember, though, in the draft pick thread I said that was supposed to be a joke, and shortly after Jones was drafted I was so pissed I wrote a song about it.
The Day The Hamster Died. - ( New Window )
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your tannehill reference inspired an archives search that led here. this thread was a couple weeks before Sy posted his QB profile, shout out to Arc who was the first to mention Tannehill. Was a pretty good discussion of Jones before he was the pick both pro and con. wherever he is hope all's well with Bill2, his posts about OL ended up foreboding. Give me Daniel Jones, or give me death! 4/18/2019 - ( New Window )
HA! That was a good one.
Just remember, though, in the draft pick thread I said that was supposed to be a joke, and shortly after Jones was drafted I was so pissed I wrote a song about it. The Day The Hamster Died. - ( New Window )
yeah i wasn't posting that as any sort of gotcha everyone's comments were pretty reasonable even with hindsight other than the captain of the ryan finley express.
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In comment 15701966 Eric on Li said:
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your tannehill reference inspired an archives search that led here. this thread was a couple weeks before Sy posted his QB profile, shout out to Arc who was the first to mention Tannehill. Was a pretty good discussion of Jones before he was the pick both pro and con. wherever he is hope all's well with Bill2, his posts about OL ended up foreboding. Give me Daniel Jones, or give me death! 4/18/2019 - ( New Window )
HA! That was a good one.
Just remember, though, in the draft pick thread I said that was supposed to be a joke, and shortly after Jones was drafted I was so pissed I wrote a song about it. The Day The Hamster Died. - ( New Window )
yeah i wasn't posting that as any sort of gotcha everyone's comments were pretty reasonable even with hindsight other than the captain of the ryan finley express.
No, dude, I knew where you were coming from and I got a big laugh out of it.
Give it a rest, snapperhead. Whining about "whining" is...well...whining, don't you think?
Anyway, I can't play with you anymore. Gotta take a shower and get dressed.
Arrivederci!
For me it’s really simple I think you have to have a QB on your team where you say well the team may suck but our QB is making the most of it. Thank god we have that guy. Not this he’s our child and he’s underachieving in school and we are going to blame the teachers, his friends that are distracting him the system, etc. we bear no responsibility to Jones yet many of you act as if we do. He bears responsibility to US. And he’s been nothing short of a complete let down.
If you wonder why people are willing to go on these threads day after day and piss in your corn flakes as you perceive it to be. It’s because this kind of attitude will have many of you and our owner with the validation of the fans we know he deeply needs. Extent Jones because he’s “likable” not because he gives us the best chance to win. The funny think is Mara actually likes Jones maybe even loves him and that’s a real thing, the rest of you are just being manipulated by the same systems that had you believing DG was a good GM and many other lies the Giants wanted to sell you. Many of you let the personal feelings of the Mara’s become football truths for you. When are you going to wake up and realize this doesn’t help us?
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be perfect so we have a shot at advancing to the divisional round.
I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t think Jones is any good so as to not be accused of being a “Jones lover”. But at the same time, I cannot figure out why fans keep repeating this line of everything has to be perfect for Jones. Perfect? Wtf? How about giving him everything just average? Hell, how about simply everything slightly below average? I’d settle for that! Or how about just giving him SOMETHING average. Anything. His OL has been a dumpster fire. So has the WR group, And the coaching. These three things couldn’t be any worse than they have been. There’s an enormous gap between everything needing to be perfect and what he’s had to work with.
These aren’t excuses. They are facts. Like I said, I still don’t think he’s the answer, but completely ignoring the shitty ass situation he’s had is disingenuous. At best.
The receiver group Jones had to work with was often fine. he couldn't get the ball to them. He couldn't work with them when they were healthy.
Golladay, Shep, Toney, Slayton, Engram, Barkley may not be the best group in the league, but they were a pretty solid, professional group. And when they were on the field, Jones looked lost as ever. He is flustered, stares down receivers, holds the ball too long, etc etc.
2020 142 31
2019 139.0 26
Interestingly, these numbers are pretty in line with the Giants 2005-2010 with the exception of 2009. 2010 hit these with 10 wins but no playoffs. 2011 was a pretty unique year with that WR trio.
2013-2021 have not come close to these type of numbers.
Where Tanenhill gets hurt is not stepping up in the playoffs. This is where Eli did. Would have been nice if Jones had this type of support from the start. Perhaps a different perception of him but even so I think many would doubt his potential to step up playoff time. On a rookie contract you can live with that when your expensive....
None. Jones as starting QB with the Chiefs, Bucs, or Rams for a full year ... would maybe get you to .500 at best.