In his pre-draft evaluation of Daniel Jones, Sy'56 compared him, physically, to Ryan Tannehill, so I'm going to use Tannehill as a benchmark, with the understanding that statistically he's been a better QB than Jones in their respective first four years.
Can you field a competitive team with a Ryan Tannehill at the helm? Absolutely, provided every other facet of your team is strong, or at least above average. Good skill players, good offensive line, good defense and special teams. You'll be competitive. You might even make the playoffs, either by winning your division or as a wild card, if you can stay relatively healthy and get a favorable bounce or two as the season progresses.
Can you field a championship team, though? Probably not, and therein lies the dilemma. The proverbial "game manager" can keep a good team competitive, provided it stays good, but the odds are he won't be able to elevate that team to a championship level. In today's NFL, you need a QB with elite-level skill to do that.
Daniel Jones may be good enough to keep the Giants out of the cellar with a good, strong supporting cast around him, but I doubt he'll ever be able to put the team on his back, if need be, and carry it to The Promised Land.
If all you want is to not be a complete joke, you can keep him and build around him as best you can. If you want to add another Lombardi Trophy or two, you move on, and replace him as soon as you can, "by any means necessary," with a much, much better QB.
His physical conditioning has improved so much that he still misses games every year. The conditioning doesn't matter on the sideline.
No, Andrew Thomas was, followed by Xavier McKinney.
DJ is a bad starting QB in the NFL. He's not on Tannehill's level (not that Tannehill is even anything that great).
This is an interesting question. For us fans and for the giant sake, we hope Gettleman has gotten this right. If he’s wrong, then we have to find a new quarterback, and there’s no telling what slot we will be in next year to get a QB and who we will be selected in the draft. It’s not a guarantee that the new QB drafted will be a success. Not to mention that the FA quarterbacks out there will cost a hefty dollar to sign. I just really hope Daniel Jones succeeds. It’s one less position to worry about.
Ha! Zero, since Ryan Tannehill never played for the Giants. Fuckin’ got ‘em bro.
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In comment 15701819 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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be perfect so we have a shot at advancing to the divisional round.
I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t think Jones is any good so as to not be accused of being a “Jones lover”. But at the same time, I cannot figure out why fans keep repeating this line of everything has to be perfect for Jones. Perfect? Wtf? How about giving him everything just average? Hell, how about simply everything slightly below average? I’d settle for that! Or how about just giving him SOMETHING average. Anything. His OL has been a dumpster fire. So has the WR group, And the coaching. These three things couldn’t be any worse than they have been. There’s an enormous gap between everything needing to be perfect and what he’s had to work with.
These aren’t excuses. They are facts. Like I said, I still don’t think he’s the answer, but completely ignoring the shitty ass situation he’s had is disingenuous. At best.
The receiver group Jones had to work with was often fine. he couldn't get the ball to them. He couldn't work with them when they were healthy.
Golladay, Shep, Toney, Slayton, Engram, Barkley may not be the best group in the league, but they were a pretty solid, professional group. And when they were on the field, Jones looked lost as ever.
This is laughable. How many games did that group play together?
59 of 85 for 781 yds, 69.4%, 4 TDs, 0 Ints.
That was against ND (a playoff team) and BC.
In 2021 behind a poor OL DJ was:
208 of 374 for 2,246 yds, 55.6%, 9 TDs, 10 Ints.
He looked absolutely awful and his weaknesses were exposed and strengths negated.
Our DJ will still have weaknesses, but we have no idea what he will look like behind a good OL.
For me, the dilemma is that this season is pretty much h a waste of time with Jones. If he doesn't significantly improve, you don't re-sign him. If he gets worse, you don't re-sign him. If he's hurt again, you don't re-sign him. If he has a good, not great season, you don't re-sign him. If he has a very good, not great, season, they might, but I wouldn't re-sign him.
That leaves o the highly unlikely scenario that he elevates his game to an elite level. That is the only way, in my opinion, he earns a second contract here. So, there is almost no way he's back, in my estimation. So,what do we gain by playing him?
I feel the same way about Barkley. This is very likely the last year for both players.
I assume that was directed at me, but I'm afraid you misunderstood. What I was saying is that Foles, Flacco and the corpse of Peyton Manning were clearly NOT elite. And that it's questionable if Stafford could be considered elite (i.e. maybe he is, maybe he isn't). That does not in any way mean I think Stafford is in the same tier as those guys, just that he may not be in the same tier as Mahomes and Brady.
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think Matt Stafford is in the same tier as Flacco and Foles.
I assume that was directed at me, but I'm afraid you misunderstood. What I was saying is that Foles, Flacco and the corpse of Peyton Manning were clearly NOT elite. And that it's questionable if Stafford could be considered elite (i.e. maybe he is, maybe he isn't). That does not in any way mean I think Stafford is in the same tier as those guys, just that he may not be in the same tier as Mahomes and Brady.
Do you mean elite for a career or elite one year, to win the Superbowl? Because Stafford's 2021 was pretty darn good. If you are looking at entire career, Eli wasn't elite. He got hot at this right time twice
Jones had 10 TDs in 11 games with the offense scoring 18ppg. There is nothing "best" about that.
Our expectations are too low if posters would settle for Jones to be the level of Tannehill. It just puts too much pressure on the GM, HC, etc to build a team to support a game manager-QB. You have to have a very high hit rate at a lot of positions to give that game manager the best chance to succeed. And it's very difficult to sustain that success if you are fortunate enough to get there because of roster turnover and the economics of the game.
Does anybody seriously think that's a reasonable way to build a team? The QB is the CEO of the team on the field. If a company is being poorly led by a CEO after three years, you get rid of the CEO. And probably after year two.
Jones had 10 TDs in 11 games with the offense scoring 18ppg. There is nothing "best" about that.
Our expectations are too low if posters would settle for Jones to be the level of Tannehill. It just puts too much pressure on the GM, HC, etc to build a team to support a game manager-QB. You have to have a very high hit rate at a lot of positions to give that game manager the best chance to succeed. And it's very difficult to sustain that success if you are fortunate enough to get there because of roster turnover and the economics of the game.
Does anybody seriously think that's a reasonable way to build a team? The QB is the CEO of the team on the field. If a company is being poorly led by a CEO after three years, you get rid of the CEO. And probably after year two.
How many playoffs have the Titans reached with Tannehill as QB? Every year since he came from Miami on time to AFCC game...3 straight years.
Not bad. We all would have been happy reaching the playoff 3 straight years.
Just sayin'
He has good straight line speed but he is not quick and has no cutting ability or elusiveness.
You can call running plays for him a la Cam but he does not buy extra time in the pocket like Mahomes or Dak
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In comment 15702002 Producer said:
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think Matt Stafford is in the same tier as Flacco and Foles.
I assume that was directed at me, but I'm afraid you misunderstood. What I was saying is that Foles, Flacco and the corpse of Peyton Manning were clearly NOT elite. And that it's questionable if Stafford could be considered elite (i.e. maybe he is, maybe he isn't). That does not in any way mean I think Stafford is in the same tier as those guys, just that he may not be in the same tier as Mahomes and Brady.
Do you mean elite for a career or elite one year, to win the Superbowl? Because Stafford's 2021 was pretty darn good. If you are looking at entire career, Eli wasn't elite. He got hot at this right time twice
I guess I'm looking at it more in terms of career, although Manning doesn't fit into that narrative (he was just so broken down by that time). Really, I was just pushing back on the idea that you need an elite QB in order to win a Superbowl. Seems that it would have been best to just leave Stafford out of the discussion.
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think Matt Stafford is in the same tier as Flacco and Foles.
I assume that was directed at me, but I'm afraid you misunderstood. What I was saying is that Foles, Flacco and the corpse of Peyton Manning were clearly NOT elite. And that it's questionable if Stafford could be considered elite (i.e. maybe he is, maybe he isn't). That does not in any way mean I think Stafford is in the same tier as those guys, just that he may not be in the same tier as Mahomes and Brady.
Stafford is the fastest QB to 50,000 yards in NFL history and acknowledged by all observers to having an elite arm, all prior to joining the Rams. Basically, he was already on course to make the Hall of Fame. And then he wins a championship his first year with a good team.
Then you have this other concept of points scored and how this is just attributed to the QB. More foolishness and a conceptual lack of understanding of offensive football imv.
Recent SB Champion Rams
2018 32pts/game
2021 27pts/game
So is Goff a better QB than Stafford? No. Did he have better performances in the playoffs? Most probable. Was McVay a better big game coach and the defense better? Most certainly.
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Andrew Thomas was the best player on the offensive side of the ball in 2021.
Jones had 10 TDs in 11 games with the offense scoring 18ppg. There is nothing "best" about that.
Our expectations are too low if posters would settle for Jones to be the level of Tannehill. It just puts too much pressure on the GM, HC, etc to build a team to support a game manager-QB. You have to have a very high hit rate at a lot of positions to give that game manager the best chance to succeed. And it's very difficult to sustain that success if you are fortunate enough to get there because of roster turnover and the economics of the game.
Does anybody seriously think that's a reasonable way to build a team? The QB is the CEO of the team on the field. If a company is being poorly led by a CEO after three years, you get rid of the CEO. And probably after year two.
How many playoffs have the Titans reached with Tannehill as QB? Every year since he came from Miami on time to AFCC game...3 straight years.
Not bad. We all would have been happy reaching the playoff 3 straight years.
Just sayin'
Would you pay Ryan Tannehill near $40 million a year? Because thats where these contracts are for Quarterbacks. Now with that said, acknowledging DJ hasn’t even reached Tannehill’s status yet, would you give DJ the same contract if he has the Giants near .500 or even squeaks them into a wildcard? Off of a 1 year sample size, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t even gove that to Tannehill off of 3 years of postseason appearances. The goal is to win championships. These QBs aren’t congruent with that goal.
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Andrew Thomas was the best player on the offensive side of the ball in 2021.
Jones had 10 TDs in 11 games with the offense scoring 18ppg. There is nothing "best" about that.
Our expectations are too low if posters would settle for Jones to be the level of Tannehill. It just puts too much pressure on the GM, HC, etc to build a team to support a game manager-QB. You have to have a very high hit rate at a lot of positions to give that game manager the best chance to succeed. And it's very difficult to sustain that success if you are fortunate enough to get there because of roster turnover and the economics of the game.
Does anybody seriously think that's a reasonable way to build a team? The QB is the CEO of the team on the field. If a company is being poorly led by a CEO after three years, you get rid of the CEO. And probably after year two.
How many playoffs have the Titans reached with Tannehill as QB? Every year since he came from Miami on time to AFCC game...3 straight years.
Not bad. We all would have been happy reaching the playoff 3 straight years.
Just sayin'
The Titans are an outlier. And I love the way they play football. They have assembled a team that resembles '80s/'90s football. Legit smash mouth football with a real generational-type RB with Henry, who can pound between the tackles and turn the corner and get vertical. They are a terrific testament to Vrabel and his staff's ability to develop and Robinson's ability at their GM to find talent.
If you want to try and get to their level, it's going to take some serious drafting and player development outside of the QB.
Or we could find a great QB prospect who is a force multiplier and has the ability to lift a team.
Both are hard. But doing it the way of the Titans is very hard, especially if you want to win the Lombardi.
That's why I've said it's over for Jones. If he turns into a superstar this year he'll get paid, but that applies to every other player. If Niko Lalos plays like a superstar he'll get paid too.
What are the odds of that?
If you want to try and get to their level, it's going to take some serious drafting and player development outside of the QB.
Or we could find a great QB prospect who is a force multiplier and has the ability to lift a team.
Both are hard. But doing it the way of the Titans is very hard, especially if you want to win the Lombardi.
Hell of a lot easier to build a decent team then find a special QB.
That's why I've said it's over for Jones. If he turns into a superstar this year he'll get paid, but that applies to every other player. If Niko Lalos plays like a superstar he'll get paid too.
What are the odds of that?
Some here don’t like to hear it, but this is pretty much what it comes down to.
That's why I've said it's over for Jones. If he turns into a superstar this year he'll get paid, but that applies to every other player. If Niko Lalos plays like a superstar he'll get paid too.
What are the odds of that?
Not much. But I don't think they ever really considered picking up Jones's fifth year option. There is very little chance that Jones plays well enough to justify using the FT on him, not when it would cost $22M. He starts this year because we have no other option.
I like Jones. He works hard, has had no off the field issues, and he's a tough kid on the field. I'm also sympathetic to the fact that the Giants put a terrible team around him. He's easy to root for. I just don't think he's played well enough to be the future QB of the Giants, but obviously hope I'm wrong.
The most likely scenario is that he and Barkley will be gone after this season.
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If you want to try and get to their level, it's going to take some serious drafting and player development outside of the QB.
Or we could find a great QB prospect who is a force multiplier and has the ability to lift a team.
Both are hard. But doing it the way of the Titans is very hard, especially if you want to win the Lombardi.
Hell of a lot easier to build a decent team then find a special QB.
I don't know about that. These QBs are more precocious than ever. They are throwing it around like its backyard football at all levels before the NFL.
So, the talent is out there. You just need the right people to find it and the right people to develop it.
The discipline now is being honest with yourself as an organization and cutting bait if (1) your veteran QB is starting to slide or (2) the young QB isn't showing well after one or two years.
So, the talent is out there. You just need the right people to find it and the right people to develop it.
The discipline now is being honest with yourself as an organization and cutting bait if (1) your veteran QB is starting to slide or (2) the young QB isn't showing well after one or two years.
If the talent was out there, 20+ teams in the NFL wouldn't be starting the QBs they are.
Cutting a vet when he has a big contract is hard when eating $$$$. The non 1st round young guy is different.
I think Taylor is here in the event Jones can't run this offense. Jones may not be suited for the quick read offense we speculate is coming
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If that’s what Taylor is here for. If Jones somehow shows something early they’d look to deal him and turn it over to Taylor. I doubt it, but you never know.
I think Taylor is here in the event Jones can't run this offense. Jones may not be suited for the quick read offense we speculate is coming
Likely for injury reasons as Jones is frequently injured.
The only thing they DO know for certain is he's elevated the offense to some degree. That was obvious when Glennon & Fromm played.
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If you want to try and get to their level, it's going to take some serious drafting and player development outside of the QB.
Or we could find a great QB prospect who is a force multiplier and has the ability to lift a team.
Both are hard. But doing it the way of the Titans is very hard, especially if you want to win the Lombardi.
Hell of a lot easier to build a decent team then find a special QB.
You don't win anything with a decent team and no special QB. If you don't have a great QB you need an awesome team. And it's much harder to build a championship team without a great QB, than it is to find a great QB.
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In comment 15702103 bw in dc said:
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If you want to try and get to their level, it's going to take some serious drafting and player development outside of the QB.
Or we could find a great QB prospect who is a force multiplier and has the ability to lift a team.
Both are hard. But doing it the way of the Titans is very hard, especially if you want to win the Lombardi.
Hell of a lot easier to build a decent team then find a special QB.
You don't win anything with a decent team and no special QB. If you don't have a great QB you need an awesome team. And it's much harder to build a championship team without a great QB, than it is to find a great QB.
Not the point. I said it is easier to build a team, than find a top of the line QB. There is rarely more then 1 great QB per year, maybe 2.
Just because you guys created that narrative doesn’t mean it s true
Schoen said, "That would be a great problem to have."
They didn't pick up his option, and they signed Taylor for two seasons. That's pretty fucking clear what the plan is if you stop over analyzing it.
This is only tough, or a dilemma OUTSIDE of their building.
The Giants are NOT in win-now mode. Everyone on the planet sees they're rebuilding. Between the vet IOLs they brought in and the draft class, they've seemingly upgraded the OL a LOT (there was nowhere to go but up). They've got bookend OTs, veteran IOLs and a bunch of versatile rookie OLs to push them.
They've got a coach who has a "modern offense" mind (unlike Garrett), who wants to build around DJ's strengths, and doesn't want to play ultra conservative ball (like Judge). He may even get the most out of Barkley if Barkley can stay healthy.
They have some new weapons at RB, WR, and TE. They're doing everything in their power to set DJ up to succeed. They're on record saying they want to see "the best version of Jones." Unless they're decimated by injuries again, they're well on their way to setting that up.
It's very simple. Strive for the best. Plan for the worst. That's what they're doing. That's what they've already done, to the extent that they can.
If they give Jones every chance to succeed (the OL plays well, and the offense isn't decimated by injury) and he doesn't rise to the occasion, they'll move on.
And then yes, they'll likely have to give up a bunch of draft picks to move up to draft the next guy. So be it. And if they do that, Taylor can hold the fort.
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be perfect so we have a shot at advancing to the divisional round.
Just because you guys created that narrative doesn’t mean it s true
Who created that narrative? His performance hasn’t been good in 3 years, and I like the guy. People point to his rookie year and choose to ignore the turnovers. This has to be the make or break year. He gets a fat extension or they let him walk. No mans land where his supporters say “first year in Dabolls system, oline hasn’t had time to gel” excuses don’t fly anymore. Fair or unfair it’s shit or get off the pot time for dimes
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In comment 15701819 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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be perfect so we have a shot at advancing to the divisional round.
Just because you guys created that narrative doesn’t mean it s true
Who created that narrative? His performance hasn’t been good in 3 years, and I like the guy. People point to his rookie year and choose to ignore the turnovers. This has to be the make or break year. He gets a fat extension or they let him walk. No mans land where his supporters say “first year in Dabolls system, oline hasn’t had time to gel” excuses don’t fly anymore. Fair or unfair it’s shit or get off the pot time for dimes
well said. The excuses are ludicrous. A great professional athlete adjusts and shows glimpses of who he is. There are not many glimpses that Jones is anything but a subpar NFL QB who is inaccurate, easily flustered, inconsistent and robotic. Is is a zero percent chance that he can bloom into a great QB? No. But the odds are so low of him becoming elite that it is an improbable outcome that is no longer worth betting on.
Schoen said, "That would be a great problem to have."
They didn't pick up his option, and they signed Taylor for two seasons. That's pretty fucking clear what the plan is if you stop over analyzing it.
This is only tough, or a dilemma OUTSIDE of their building.
The Giants are NOT in win-now mode. Everyone on the planet sees they're rebuilding. Between the vet IOLs they brought in and the draft class, they've seemingly upgraded the OL a LOT (there was nowhere to go but up). They've got bookend OTs, veteran IOLs and a bunch of versatile rookie OLs to push them.
They've got a coach who has a "modern offense" mind (unlike Garrett), who wants to build around DJ's strengths, and doesn't want to play ultra conservative ball (like Judge). He may even get the most out of Barkley if Barkley can stay healthy.
They have some new weapons at RB, WR, and TE. They're doing everything in their power to set DJ up to succeed. They're on record saying they want to see "the best version of Jones." Unless they're decimated by injuries again, they're well on their way to setting that up.
It's very simple. Strive for the best. Plan for the worst. That's what they're doing. That's what they've already done, to the extent that they can.
If they give Jones every chance to succeed (the OL plays well, and the offense isn't decimated by injury) and he doesn't rise to the occasion, they'll move on.
And then yes, they'll likely have to give up a bunch of draft picks to move up to draft the next guy. So be it. And if they do that, Taylor can hold the fort.
Thank you.
I can only imagine the bashing of Simms if BBI was around with the same current cast of posters during Simm's first five seasons. They certainly would have wanted him gone.
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In comment 15702264 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15701819 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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be perfect so we have a shot at advancing to the divisional round.
Just because you guys created that narrative doesn’t mean it s true
Who created that narrative? His performance hasn’t been good in 3 years, and I like the guy. People point to his rookie year and choose to ignore the turnovers. This has to be the make or break year. He gets a fat extension or they let him walk. No mans land where his supporters say “first year in Dabolls system, oline hasn’t had time to gel” excuses don’t fly anymore. Fair or unfair it’s shit or get off the pot time for dimes
well said. The excuses are ludicrous. A great professional athlete adjusts and shows glimpses of who he is. There are not many glimpses that Jones is anything but a subpar NFL QB who is inaccurate, easily flustered, inconsistent and robotic. Is is a zero percent chance that he can bloom into a great QB? No. But the odds are so low of him becoming elite that it is an improbable outcome that is no longer worth betting on.
Did you guys notice any difference in the play of the team the last 6 games of the season without Jones?
You guys created the narrative!
Jones is 12-25 as a starter. He’s had awful games where his play prevented wins. The KC game last year was a prime example.
I don’t get all the loyalty to Jones. As Terps mentioned above, everything else Gettleman did was awful, but he nailed the Jones pick?
You want to pay Jones $20M plus per year if he shows “some” improvement this year? I don’t want this team in QB hell. I think the best thing for this franchise is Schoen/Daboll getting to pick their own guy next year.
If Jones sets the world on fire and the Giants go 12-5, I will be thrilled. Nothing has suggested that is remotely possible though.
Daniel Jones was the #6 overall pick. apparently now his measuring stick has been reduced to a backup QB/special teams over achiever. sadly for us, other teams expect to take future pro bowlers and all pros with a pick that high.
Schoen said, "That would be a great problem to have."
They didn't pick up his option, and they signed Taylor for two seasons. That's pretty fucking clear what the plan is if you stop over analyzing it.
This is only tough, or a dilemma OUTSIDE of their building.
The Giants are NOT in win-now mode. Everyone on the planet sees they're rebuilding. Between the vet IOLs they brought in and the draft class, they've seemingly upgraded the OL a LOT (there was nowhere to go but up). They've got bookend OTs, veteran IOLs and a bunch of versatile rookie OLs to push them.
They've got a coach who has a "modern offense" mind (unlike Garrett), who wants to build around DJ's strengths, and doesn't want to play ultra conservative ball (like Judge). He may even get the most out of Barkley if Barkley can stay healthy.
They have some new weapons at RB, WR, and TE. They're doing everything in their power to set DJ up to succeed. They're on record saying they want to see "the best version of Jones." Unless they're decimated by injuries again, they're well on their way to setting that up.
It's very simple. Strive for the best. Plan for the worst. That's what they're doing. That's what they've already done, to the extent that they can.
If they give Jones every chance to succeed (the OL plays well, and the offense isn't decimated by injury) and he doesn't rise to the occasion, they'll move on.
And then yes, they'll likely have to give up a bunch of draft picks to move up to draft the next guy. So be it. And if they do that, Taylor can hold the fort.
This is a good post, no matter which side of the aisle you sit on regarding Jones.
That being said, I think Jones is being setup for the chance to show what he's got with some talent around him. Neal and Thibodeaux, if they hit on these two, Jones has a shot. No 5th year is definitely the right move, lets see what he can do.