I'm just sharing what was said - particularly the Schwartz article specifically calling out Williams's market value. You'll note everyone stopped posting after I dug that up.
We've been riding a slow motion train wreck and so many were in denial about it.
This transaction with Williams from start to finish
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2021 5:02 pm : link
needs to be a case study in a Sports Management class.
And the Giants front office should attend and listen up...
The timeline and discussions ostensibly went like this...
We acquire LW at the trade deadline in 2019. There is this excitement about LW and how we are going to sign him for $10-12M based on him loving the NY area and he really wants to be a Giant, etc, etc.
A few of us start looking at the market and realize the going rate for DT - like Grady Jarrett and Jurrell Casey, who had recently signed new deals - was probably going to be $17M+. And when you adjust for all of the variables, the franchise tag was very likely going to be $18M+.
Thus, there was NFW that Team LW was going to be so magnanimous and give us a 30-35% hometown discount from that projected FT. They knew the minimum the FT was the baseline minimum and would - rightly - negotiate off of that.
And as the deal played out, LW got a deal that reflected the market and not some asinine hometown discount that would be less than $15M, and maybe as low as $12M...
In other words, he took Gettleman to the cleaners and added another example in the long line of misplays by DG.
Of course he took DG to the cleaners...popular club.
DG at least identified a good player but if he came to a conclusion LW was a must have (3-4 DL, really?) then he needed to have a deal basically locked up as part of the trade or at least parameters of one that worked for big Leonard.
If not, then just bid for his services in free agency the following spring.
And if you lose out because somebody else outbid you in the market, then did you really lose out? Oh and that's a rhetorical for a lot of posters in that year-old thread...
It's so crazy to see the intersection of LW and JB in this thread.
with a rebuilding team and a GM working to balance 2022 roster and fix prior regime mistakes. Now, what to do with KG's contract and when.
If the mantra is " rip the band aide off" then this is it
Next yr it may be KG
2023 cap should be healthy , hopefully one more good drat land a qb.
And we sign a couple solid FA 's
RE: RE: RE: RE: My style isn't to do call outs and name names...
I'm just sharing what was said - particularly the Schwartz article specifically calling out Williams's market value. You'll note everyone stopped posting after I dug that up.
We've been riding a slow motion train wreck and so many were in denial about it.
I'm definitely not directing that at you. I've been aligned with you on Williams from the start. Watching people take victory laps on Leo mugging 80m from the Giants' clueless front office is hysterical.
all of those victory laps and acting like the cap was not going to be an issue. Then LW sitting there as our most expensive player. Exactly what the problem was, not LW just overpaying him and everyone else catches up to you
I think Bradbury may regret his decision to not rework his contract. Just a feeling. I also think Bradberry’s game has fallen off a bit. Just my 2 cents.
thread is exhibit A at how Giants fans still have not come to grips with "we're rebuilding all over again."
When you start over, you start over.
I have come to grips with it
JB was average last yr Play the young guys Build the lines draft well
Hit FA some next yr Works for me not expecting a contender this yr, just better play If we are starting over with qb in 23, we arent contenders till 24
This transaction with Williams from start to finish
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2021 5:02 pm : link
needs to be a case study in a Sports Management class.
And the Giants front office should attend and listen up...
The timeline and discussions ostensibly went like this...
We acquire LW at the trade deadline in 2019. There is this excitement about LW and how we are going to sign him for $10-12M based on him loving the NY area and he really wants to be a Giant, etc, etc.
A few of us start looking at the market and realize the going rate for DT - like Grady Jarrett and Jurrell Casey, who had recently signed new deals - was probably going to be $17M+. And when you adjust for all of the variables, the franchise tag was very likely going to be $18M+.
Thus, there was NFW that Team LW was going to be so magnanimous and give us a 30-35% hometown discount from that projected FT. They knew the minimum the FT was the baseline minimum and would - rightly - negotiate off of that.
And as the deal played out, LW got a deal that reflected the market and not some asinine hometown discount that would be less than $15M, and maybe as low as $12M...
In other words, he took Gettleman to the cleaners and added another example in the long line of misplays by DG.
Some of the worst examples of negotiating tactics I've ever seen. Gettleman was like a fat kid chasing the ice cream truck. The driver just slows down enough for him to keep up. And when he finally stops, the poor kid can't help himself...
If he doesn’t return to 2020 form, he’s not a Giant in 2023 at 18M in new cash.
The real error was giving a multi-year deal off a contract year explosion and paying him as if he was capable of consistently being that player when you had no reason to believe he would.
Like, if Daniel Jones has a good year year I'm not throwing 100m at him. Go prove it wasn't a fluke.
I feel this year we have to start building a winning culture, and our CB's getting smoked all year isn't going to help. We are paper thin at CB in a passing league before injuries.
no one has to like it. But I can't shake this feeling that Mara couldn't wait to take the cheap and easy way out and just allow Schoen to go scorched earth because why not? What does anyone have to lose if you basically sell the NYG fan base the bill of goods that "sorry guys but we had no money, it was all DG's fault, just hang in there for ONE MORE year while we purge the books for the 2nd time in 5 years and yea, sorry, but we're gonna suck balls in 2022 yet again and truly and seriously, we had no choice, those damn cap numbers"
Sorry...I am here to call bullshit. another fucking no show season because wahhhh DG spent all our money...
FOUR long term contracts. FOUR.
Well you pretty much got it all wrong, but other than that your opinion is ok with me...
He's always been willing to spend. We just haven't spent wisely. People here refuse to recognize that we are in a full rebuild. Bradberry is in decline already and is nearing 30. He won't be good when this team is ready.
He's always been willing to spend. We just haven't spent wisely. People here refuse to recognize that we are in a full rebuild. Bradberry is in decline already and is nearing 30. He won't be good when this team is ready.
He spends like any NFL owner spends. They aren't spending their money; they're spending yours.
... good luck covering Lamb, McLaurin, Dotson, Devonta and AJ Brown now. Smh. Wish there was a way this could have worked out.
CB is not barren. There are injury concerns with Adoree’ Jackson but when healthy he is a legitimate starting CB. The truth is that Jackson frequently outplayed Bradberry last season.
His first year in NY Bradberry was a true star CB but unfortunately he was unable to replicate his performance and struggled for much of last season.
The Giants have some talented young cornerbacks in Aaron Robinson, Cor’Dale Flott, Darnay Holmes, Rodarius Williams, and Jarren Williams. Plus they added an intriguing UDFA in Zyon Gilbert.
This transaction with Williams from start to finish
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2021 5:02 pm : link
needs to be a case study in a Sports Management class.
And the Giants front office should attend and listen up...
DG as GM of the Giants is a case study in everything NOT to do in Sports Management, including Negotiations: Outbidding yourself for someone no one else wants.
Not only did Williams agent take Gettleman to the cleaners but so did the Jets GM. Here you have a rookie GM who knows he’s not going to re-sign Williams to the contract Williams wants. He would have been lucky to get a team to offer a 7th round pick in the trade. Instead, he gets a high 3 from a bad team which turns out to be something like the 75th pick plus either a 4th or a 5th depending on when Williams signed. In the middle of the year, this trade would only have made sense if a a team was deep in the playoff hunt and probably not even though let only a very bad team giving up a premium pick plus more.
The Giants have some talented young cornerbacks in Aaron Robinson, Cor’Dale Flott, Darnay Holmes, Rodarius Williams, and Jarren Williams. Plus they added an intriguing UDFA in Zyon Gilbert.
I'm also curious to see what we have in these young guys, too, especially with a new DC like Wink. Seeing how he and Henderson can develop them is going to be one of the more important stories of 2022.
This transaction with Williams from start to finish
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2021 5:02 pm : link
needs to be a case study in a Sports Management class.
And the Giants front office should attend and listen up...
DG as GM of the Giants is a case study in everything NOT to do in Sports Management, including Negotiations: Outbidding yourself for someone no one else wants.
traded this year any time between training camp and the deadline he costs the acquiring team less than $2m against their cap this year (less the closer you get to the deadline).
if he plays halfway decent a contender might even give up a day 2 pick. they will still eat some dead money but save $12m in 2023.
the only reason they wouldn't trade him is if they like him enough to extend him longer term.
I'm just glad it's over and they can finally move on.
Roll with the young guys, maybe sign a vet for the minimum for a year if one shakes loose and they have the cash, I really don't care. For me, this year is all about erasing past mistakes and beginning the process of setting the team up for a successful future.
Dan Duggan
✔
@DDuggan21
Replying to @DDuggan21
Also ICYMI, told this is a standard release, not a June 1. Interesting decision considering a case can be made that $1.4M is more valuable now than next year, but Schoen is committed to not pushing cap charges to future years.
RE: Everyone saw this move coming down Main Street
Dan Duggan
✔
@DDuggan21
Replying to @DDuggan21
Also ICYMI, told this is a standard release, not a June 1. Interesting decision considering a case can be made that $1.4M is more valuable now than next year, but Schoen is committed to not pushing cap charges to future years.
Setting aside the rookies, I believe Schoen subtracted more from the 2023 cap than he added.
It’s crystal clear cap resources in 2023 is his goal.
RE: Everyone saw this move coming down Main Street
So is Schoen going to regret not drafting a CB in round 2? And if Wan Dale doesn't produce, its going to get ugly.
Schoen went into the draft knowing he was going to have a hole at CB, so I doubt it. There's no such thing as getting ugly this year. This year is for getting the financial house in order and seeing what he has with the players he brought on board or kept and I think most Giants fans know it.
either Andrew Booth or Kyler Gordon right about now...
And let's face it, Gettleman is just another in the long line of excuses for this team. The problem clearly remains in the building. As far as I can tell, other than the blindingly obvious picks of Thibs and Neal, the decision making continues to be perplexing at best and idiotic at worst....
Good stuff. Keep truckin.
Definitely a few head scratchers during the draft that I'd label as reaches, but at least they nailed the first round and hit some needs with prospects better on paper than the previous options.
Dan Duggan
✔
@DDuggan21
Replying to @DDuggan21
Also ICYMI, told this is a standard release, not a June 1. Interesting decision considering a case can be made that $1.4M is more valuable now than next year, but Schoen is committed to not pushing cap charges to future years.
with a rebuilding team and a GM working to balance 2022 roster and fix prior regime mistakes. Now, what to do with KG's contract and when.
2024 for KG.
If he doesn't produce significantly I can see them cutting him after 2022... $6.8 million in cap savings even though there'd be over $14 million dead money.
So is Schoen going to regret not drafting a CB in round 2? And if Wan Dale doesn't produce, its going to get ugly.
Schoen went into the draft knowing he was going to have a hole at CB, so I doubt it. There's no such thing as getting ugly this year. This year is for getting the financial house in order and seeing what he has with the players he brought on board or kept and I think most Giants fans know it.
Most rookie CB’s struggle heavily in year one anyways so either way you’re likely to have a liability at cb2 this year.
either Andrew Booth or Kyler Gordon right about now...
And let's face it, Gettleman is just another in the long line of excuses for this team. The problem clearly remains in the building. As far as I can tell, other than the blindingly obvious picks of Thibs and Neal, the decision making continues to be perplexing at best and idiotic at worst....
Good stuff. Keep truckin.
Definitely a few head scratchers during the draft that I'd label as reaches, but at least they nailed the first round and hit some needs with prospects better on paper than the previous options.
They wanted McCreary but Tennessee took him at #35. They could have had either Gordon or Boothe at #38, but decided to trade down again anyway. The fact that they were willing to risk losing both for a fourth round pick shows that neither was likely rated that highly on their board. They also didn't take Flott until #81, not #67. So it sounds like their three top corners were Stingley, Gardner, and McCreary, with a big drop off after those players. They also did all this knowing that one way or another Bradberry would be gone. Maybe they like Aaron Robinson more than we know.
with so many holes it was literally impossible to address every single need, even if the cap wasn't so poor. They have a lot of young players in the secondary to evaluate. I would assume they'll focus on the back-end of the defense and offense skill positions more-so next offseason.
with so many holes it was literally impossible to address every single need, even if the cap wasn't so poor. They have a lot of young players in the secondary to evaluate. I would assume they'll focus on the back-end of the defense and offense skill positions more-so next offseason.
Which is why I don't understand some people wringing their hands over Bradbury.
He was never staying beyond this year, and even with him there are so many holes that this team was not going to challenge for anything. Does it make a difference if the team is 7 - 10 with Bradbury and 5 - 12 without? And I doubt that Bradbury would make even that much of a difference. It is far better to take the medicine now and free up space for the future when it will matter who the team keeps.
Also keep in mind, the Giants do not have as much space as it appears in 2023. They only have 30 players under contract right now... It is likely that about half of them will get cut before the 2023 year starts. The team needs to fill out more than 2/3 of the roster and as of now they only have $81M to do it... LW is scheduled to be a $26M hit, KG is a $21.4M hit and AJ is a $19.5M hit. Expect more blood letting next year!
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2021 5:02 pm : link
needs to be a case study in a Sports Management class.
And the Giants front office should attend and listen up...
I'm just sharing what was said - particularly the Schwartz article specifically calling out Williams's market value. You'll note everyone stopped posting after I dug that up.
We've been riding a slow motion train wreck and so many were in denial about it.
So, it's a good thing...right?
Quote:
This transaction with Williams from start to finish
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2021 5:02 pm : link
needs to be a case study in a Sports Management class.
And the Giants front office should attend and listen up...
The timeline and discussions ostensibly went like this...
We acquire LW at the trade deadline in 2019. There is this excitement about LW and how we are going to sign him for $10-12M based on him loving the NY area and he really wants to be a Giant, etc, etc.
A few of us start looking at the market and realize the going rate for DT - like Grady Jarrett and Jurrell Casey, who had recently signed new deals - was probably going to be $17M+. And when you adjust for all of the variables, the franchise tag was very likely going to be $18M+.
Thus, there was NFW that Team LW was going to be so magnanimous and give us a 30-35% hometown discount from that projected FT. They knew the minimum the FT was the baseline minimum and would - rightly - negotiate off of that.
And as the deal played out, LW got a deal that reflected the market and not some asinine hometown discount that would be less than $15M, and maybe as low as $12M...
In other words, he took Gettleman to the cleaners and added another example in the long line of misplays by DG.
If not, then just bid for his services in free agency the following spring.
And if you lose out because somebody else outbid you in the market, then did you really lose out? Oh and that's a rhetorical for a lot of posters in that year-old thread...
Remind me how the extension terms went when DG traded for LW?
If the mantra is " rip the band aide off" then this is it
Next yr it may be KG
2023 cap should be healthy , hopefully one more good drat land a qb.
And we sign a couple solid FA 's
Sounds about right (:
Quote:
On smelling your own brand.
I'm just sharing what was said - particularly the Schwartz article specifically calling out Williams's market value. You'll note everyone stopped posting after I dug that up.
We've been riding a slow motion train wreck and so many were in denial about it.
I'm definitely not directing that at you. I've been aligned with you on Williams from the start. Watching people take victory laps on Leo mugging 80m from the Giants' clueless front office is hysterical.
When you start over, you start over.
I have come to grips with it
JB was average last yr Play the young guys Build the lines draft well
Hit FA some next yr Works for me not expecting a contender this yr, just better play If we are starting over with qb in 23, we arent contenders till 24
Quote:
Quote:
This transaction with Williams from start to finish
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2021 5:02 pm : link
needs to be a case study in a Sports Management class.
And the Giants front office should attend and listen up...
The timeline and discussions ostensibly went like this...
We acquire LW at the trade deadline in 2019. There is this excitement about LW and how we are going to sign him for $10-12M based on him loving the NY area and he really wants to be a Giant, etc, etc.
A few of us start looking at the market and realize the going rate for DT - like Grady Jarrett and Jurrell Casey, who had recently signed new deals - was probably going to be $17M+. And when you adjust for all of the variables, the franchise tag was very likely going to be $18M+.
Thus, there was NFW that Team LW was going to be so magnanimous and give us a 30-35% hometown discount from that projected FT. They knew the minimum the FT was the baseline minimum and would - rightly - negotiate off of that.
And as the deal played out, LW got a deal that reflected the market and not some asinine hometown discount that would be less than $15M, and maybe as low as $12M...
In other words, he took Gettleman to the cleaners and added another example in the long line of misplays by DG.
Some of the worst examples of negotiating tactics I've ever seen. Gettleman was like a fat kid chasing the ice cream truck. The driver just slows down enough for him to keep up. And when he finally stops, the poor kid can't help himself...
Quote:
2020 LW was a 21M/YR player, 2021 was not.
If he doesn’t return to 2020 form, he’s not a Giant in 2023 at 18M in new cash.
The real error was giving a multi-year deal off a contract year explosion and paying him as if he was capable of consistently being that player when you had no reason to believe he would.
Like, if Daniel Jones has a good year year I'm not throwing 100m at him. Go prove it wasn't a fluke.
If it's truly up to Schoen, he won't.
Sorry...I am here to call bullshit. another fucking no show season because wahhhh DG spent all our money...
FOUR long term contracts. FOUR.
Well you pretty much got it all wrong, but other than that your opinion is ok with me...
He spends like any NFL owner spends. They aren't spending their money; they're spending yours.
CB is not barren. There are injury concerns with Adoree’ Jackson but when healthy he is a legitimate starting CB. The truth is that Jackson frequently outplayed Bradberry last season.
His first year in NY Bradberry was a true star CB but unfortunately he was unable to replicate his performance and struggled for much of last season.
The Giants have some talented young cornerbacks in Aaron Robinson, Cor’Dale Flott, Darnay Holmes, Rodarius Williams, and Jarren Williams. Plus they added an intriguing UDFA in Zyon Gilbert.
Quote:
This transaction with Williams from start to finish
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2021 5:02 pm : link
needs to be a case study in a Sports Management class.
And the Giants front office should attend and listen up...
DG as GM of the Giants is a case study in everything NOT to do in Sports Management, including Negotiations: Outbidding yourself for someone no one else wants.
The Giants have some talented young cornerbacks in Aaron Robinson, Cor’Dale Flott, Darnay Holmes, Rodarius Williams, and Jarren Williams. Plus they added an intriguing UDFA in Zyon Gilbert.
I'm also curious to see what we have in these young guys, too, especially with a new DC like Wink. Seeing how he and Henderson can develop them is going to be one of the more important stories of 2022.
Quote:
Quote:
This transaction with Williams from start to finish
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2021 5:02 pm : link
needs to be a case study in a Sports Management class.
And the Giants front office should attend and listen up...
DG as GM of the Giants is a case study in everything NOT to do in Sports Management, including Negotiations: Outbidding yourself for someone no one else wants.
Did I leave that to a different interpretation?
I think his plan is to tank 2022 but can't say so to the public/media.
This team isn’t remotely close to competing. Can’t fill all of the holes in one draft.
Quote:
So is Schoen going to regret not drafting a CB in round 2? And if Wan Dale doesn't produce, its going to get ugly.
I think his plan is to tank 2022 but can't say so to the public/media.
Agreed.
The Giants cut half as many veterans today, as they signed to multi year deals this offseason.
either all the guys they retained sink or swim. both outcomes have pluses and minuses.
every guy that swims brings back a little more future value, or makes it easier to dump them off next year's cap.
if they all sink there's less maneuvering necessary to grab their QB next year.
i think they are rolling the dice with house money before deciding to raise the stakes with all their own chips in the pot.
You think Bradberry's contract was bad? Check out Jackson's.
Next year's situation with Jackson will be nearly identical to Bradberry this year.
$19.5 million cap # in 2023, 9 million savings if cut, but $10.5 million dead money.
My lord Gettleman was fucking awful.
OTC - Adoree Jackson - ( New Window )
if he plays halfway decent a contender might even give up a day 2 pick. they will still eat some dead money but save $12m in 2023.
the only reason they wouldn't trade him is if they like him enough to extend him longer term.
✔
@DDuggan21
Replying to @DDuggan21
Also ICYMI, told this is a standard release, not a June 1. Interesting decision considering a case can be made that $1.4M is more valuable now than next year, but Schoen is committed to not pushing cap charges to future years.
This season is for evaluation not competition.
✔
@DDuggan21
Replying to @DDuggan21
Also ICYMI, told this is a standard release, not a June 1. Interesting decision considering a case can be made that $1.4M is more valuable now than next year, but Schoen is committed to not pushing cap charges to future years.
Setting aside the rookies, I believe Schoen subtracted more from the 2023 cap than he added.
It’s crystal clear cap resources in 2023 is his goal.
Schoen went into the draft knowing he was going to have a hole at CB, so I doubt it. There's no such thing as getting ugly this year. This year is for getting the financial house in order and seeing what he has with the players he brought on board or kept and I think most Giants fans know it.
And let's face it, Gettleman is just another in the long line of excuses for this team. The problem clearly remains in the building. As far as I can tell, other than the blindingly obvious picks of Thibs and Neal, the decision making continues to be perplexing at best and idiotic at worst....
Good stuff. Keep truckin.
Definitely a few head scratchers during the draft that I'd label as reaches, but at least they nailed the first round and hit some needs with prospects better on paper than the previous options.
✔
@DDuggan21
Replying to @DDuggan21
Also ICYMI, told this is a standard release, not a June 1. Interesting decision considering a case can be made that $1.4M is more valuable now than next year, but Schoen is committed to not pushing cap charges to future years.
Happy to hear it.
You think Bradberry's contract was bad? Check out Jackson's.
Next year's situation with Jackson will be nearly identical to Bradberry this year.
$19.5 million cap # in 2023, 9 million savings if cut, but $10.5 million dead money.
My lord Gettleman was fucking awful.
OTC - Adoree Jackson - ( New Window )
I would blame that more on Judge, as that signing had his fingerprints all over it.
2024 for KG.
Quote:
with a rebuilding team and a GM working to balance 2022 roster and fix prior regime mistakes. Now, what to do with KG's contract and when.
2024 for KG.
Yeah, you'd think so. Will be very interesting to see how Schoen handles the KG/AJ situations come '23, '24.
Quote:
with a rebuilding team and a GM working to balance 2022 roster and fix prior regime mistakes. Now, what to do with KG's contract and when.
2024 for KG.
If he doesn't produce significantly I can see them cutting him after 2022... $6.8 million in cap savings even though there'd be over $14 million dead money.
We loaded up for a championship run last offseason. Hah.
Quote:
So is Schoen going to regret not drafting a CB in round 2? And if Wan Dale doesn't produce, its going to get ugly.
Schoen went into the draft knowing he was going to have a hole at CB, so I doubt it. There's no such thing as getting ugly this year. This year is for getting the financial house in order and seeing what he has with the players he brought on board or kept and I think most Giants fans know it.
Most rookie CB’s struggle heavily in year one anyways so either way you’re likely to have a liability at cb2 this year.
Quote:
either Andrew Booth or Kyler Gordon right about now...
And let's face it, Gettleman is just another in the long line of excuses for this team. The problem clearly remains in the building. As far as I can tell, other than the blindingly obvious picks of Thibs and Neal, the decision making continues to be perplexing at best and idiotic at worst....
Good stuff. Keep truckin.
Definitely a few head scratchers during the draft that I'd label as reaches, but at least they nailed the first round and hit some needs with prospects better on paper than the previous options.
They wanted McCreary but Tennessee took him at #35. They could have had either Gordon or Boothe at #38, but decided to trade down again anyway. The fact that they were willing to risk losing both for a fourth round pick shows that neither was likely rated that highly on their board. They also didn't take Flott until #81, not #67. So it sounds like their three top corners were Stingley, Gardner, and McCreary, with a big drop off after those players. They also did all this knowing that one way or another Bradberry would be gone. Maybe they like Aaron Robinson more than we know.
Which is why I don't understand some people wringing their hands over Bradbury.
He was never staying beyond this year, and even with him there are so many holes that this team was not going to challenge for anything. Does it make a difference if the team is 7 - 10 with Bradbury and 5 - 12 without? And I doubt that Bradbury would make even that much of a difference. It is far better to take the medicine now and free up space for the future when it will matter who the team keeps.
Also keep in mind, the Giants do not have as much space as it appears in 2023. They only have 30 players under contract right now... It is likely that about half of them will get cut before the 2023 year starts. The team needs to fill out more than 2/3 of the roster and as of now they only have $81M to do it... LW is scheduled to be a $26M hit, KG is a $21.4M hit and AJ is a $19.5M hit. Expect more blood letting next year!