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Over $31M in Dead Money for the Giants so far

Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/10/2022 5:13 pm
Some notables...

James Bradberry $11,727,778
Logan Ryan $11,450,000
Nate Solder $4,000,000
Kyle Rudolph $2,408,334
Devontae Booker $1,000,000
Riley Dixon $320,556
Sam Beal $262,235
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I might be wrong  
Joe Beckwith : 5/10/2022 10:48 pm : link
but I think LW will benefit from Winks D, and he likes NY, will see the arrow up, and also that Schoen isn’t a pushover, and will rework his contract.
Golladay , even on a good season, is selfish and will bleed the contract.
Jackson: who knows? He wasn’t around long enough to learn about him directly.

I think we’ll be back to our normal 7 picks next year, so unless some players and picks get moved, rookie replacements will only be 1 for 1 for whatever needs there will be: OL WR, DL, LB CB, S.
RE: I was reliably told  
HomerJones45 : 5/11/2022 8:01 am : link
In comment 15704651 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
on BBI that the cap doesn't matter.
It doesn't. If those players were worth their contracts, we'd find a way to keep them. The largest dead money hit there is Bradbury. The League has spoken: he's not good enough to justify his deal; otherwise, someone would have traded for him. The cap does not prevent any team from keeping a player they really want to keep and who they think is worth keeping.

Properly evaluating players, keeping a pipeline of good players coming is more important so you are not handing out big money deals to bums is more important. We weren't good at either.
Leonard Williams is a very good  
section125 : 5/11/2022 8:22 am : link
football player. Not sure he will be on the chopping block, but it would save $18 mill. Shepard is definitely gone next year. Likely Golladay, unless he shows up this year, that is $6 mill, $13 mill if post June 1st cut. Jackson is a VG CB when he is on the field, but he is likely gone for $9 mill in savings - almost an entire draft class..
That would be #$33 mill in savings. I am still not sure LW is a definite cut.

BTW, Martinez is a FA after this season.
RE: RE: This is why Schoen...  
joeinpa : 5/11/2022 8:52 am : link
In comment 15704693 mako J said:
Quote:
In comment 15704638 bw in dc said:


Quote:


should have gone even further and used 2022 as the Year of Total Cap Pain. Cut/trade LW, Barkley, Jones, Martinez, KG, etc.

And level with the fan base by telling them we are going for the short term, excruciating pain for long-term gain by essentially becoming an expansion franchise.

Smart fans will understand. Daft, emotional fans will get over it.



Considering the new regime has somewhere between 17-34 games to win or be fired, you want them to basically write off the first 17?

You, a “smart fan” want them to build and establish a culture of winning by removing the team’s only playmakers? You expect Daboll to be successful with rookies, UDFAs and vet min stopgaps?

Part of putting players in position to succeed is having the right players around them. Know your role, do your job, trust in the man next to you. Allowing young ascending players an opportunity to grow versus wilting under the immediate pressure of carrying a position group or unit.


Agree mako, Unless it s the end of a lost season and a few more losses garners a team the quarterback they covet, I ve never prescribed to the win by losing philosophy
I think the new regime has 51 games to show that the Giants  
cosmicj : 5/11/2022 8:55 am : link
Are a competitive, ascending team, not 17-34. Schoen has much longer than that. The odds of Daboll being fired after 2023 are low.
So the cap is $208m?  
Harvest Blend : 5/11/2022 9:09 am : link
which means the cap is really $177m for a team that stinks with a QB on a rookie contract.

Awful.
RE: So the cap is $208m?  
section125 : 5/11/2022 9:10 am : link
In comment 15705046 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
which means the cap is really $177m for a team that stinks with a QB on a rookie contract.

Awful.


Yep, we all know this. But look at what Houston has and it is far worse then the Giants...
RE: RE: So the cap is $208m?  
Harvest Blend : 5/11/2022 9:12 am : link
In comment 15705049 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15705046 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


which means the cap is really $177m for a team that stinks with a QB on a rookie contract.

Awful.



Yep, we all know this. But look at what Houston has and it is far worse then the Giants...


Great. I feel better. :)
RE: RE: I was reliably told  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/11/2022 9:29 am : link
In comment 15705016 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15704651 Mike from SI said:


Quote:


on BBI that the cap doesn't matter.

It doesn't. If those players were worth their contracts, we'd find a way to keep them. The largest dead money hit there is Bradbury. The League has spoken: he's not good enough to justify his deal; otherwise, someone would have traded for him. The cap does not prevent any team from keeping a player they really want to keep


The cap does however penalize mistakes. The Giants wanted to keep Bradberry. But not at the price the previous GM negotiated. The Giants are a less talented team on 5/11/22 because of cap mistakes resulting in having to let go of a player due to budget.
The 2 that account for  
fkap : 5/11/2022 9:30 am : link
most of that dead money are cap casualties.

As opposed to Solder, Beal, etc, who should not be on the roster under any circumstances.


I'd much rather have bad decisions on money/contracts, than bad decisions on talent. Solder was both.

That said, the dead money could be much, much worse, except that much of the dead wood still on the team was hard to cut because it would cost us additional cap space to get rid of. They'll show up on next year's dead money column.
RE: This is why Schoen...  
Mike from Ohio : 5/11/2022 9:35 am : link
In comment 15704638 bw in dc said:
Quote:
should have gone even further and used 2022 as the Year of Total Cap Pain. Cut/trade LW, Barkley, Jones, Martinez, KG, etc.

And level with the fan base by telling them we are going for the short term, excruciating pain for long-term gain by essentially becoming an expansion franchise.

Smart fans will understand. Daft, emotional fans will get over it.


Except that is an overly emotional, simplistic way of looking at things. Joe Schoen doesn't (and shouldn't) have 5 years to turn this around. Very few are expecting a winning season, but they are expecting to see the boat turning around. Sinking it and trying to build another one is not what the best people do in high performing jobs.

As emotionally satisfying as it would be to just cut everybody and announce you were starting with an expansion team, it would be a stupid move. It would signal to the rest of the league that your organization is floundering and you fix problems with bombs and not scalpels.

I think there is still fat on this roster that should be trimmed. Should they release everybody and start over? If they do, Schoen and Daboll were very poor hires.
The previous regime felt that Leonard Williams was a core player...  
Klaatu : 5/11/2022 10:15 am : link
They could build around. I wonder if the current regime feels the same way?
It is what it is.  
David B. : 5/11/2022 10:18 am : link
That's a mantra a lot of you should embrace.

Everyone balked when DG said they could "rebuild while being competitive." He just kept digging the hole and he wouldn't put down the shovel.

Schoen's job is to clean up this mess he was left with. He seems to be making the right moves to fill in that hole THIS year. It took an outside hire to find a GM with the balls to do what must be done. Be glad it's finally happening.

And yes, he also has to field a team. I personally think (baring more key injuries) this year's team will be better than last year's team, but that's a real LOW bar to clear.

Do I think it will be a winning season? No. But with the upgrades at OL and at Edge, it should hopefully look like it's pointing in the right direction. If I see that, I would find it encouraging. That's about all I can hope for in 2022.

And whichever way the go on it, I do think they'll finally figure out what they want to do about Jones this year.

The bill has finally come due. There's an Evan Neal-sized bill collector at the door and he's carrying a tire iron. Time for the Giants and their fans to take their medicine. No one likes it, but it is what it is.

RE: The previous regime felt that Leonard Williams was a core player...  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 10:18 am : link
In comment 15705137 Klaatu said:
Quote:
They could build around. I wonder if the current regime feels the same way?


we will find out this year, if he is they will likely extend him next offseason and if not he'll get cut or traded elsewhere somewhere he wants to extend. Like Bradberry there's almost no chance he plays out the year on his existing deal.

it's not even totally unrealistic that he could get traded before the deadline, though it would take some financial maneuvering.
RE: RE: The previous regime felt that Leonard Williams was a core player...  
Klaatu : 5/11/2022 10:29 am : link
In comment 15705141 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15705137 Klaatu said:


Quote:


They could build around. I wonder if the current regime feels the same way?



we will find out this year, if he is they will likely extend him next offseason and if not he'll get cut or traded elsewhere somewhere he wants to extend. Like Bradberry there's almost no chance he plays out the year on his existing deal.

it's not even totally unrealistic that he could get traded before the deadline, though it would take some financial maneuvering.


I'm not a big fan of Williams. To me, he's an unspectacular player getting paid like a superstar. However, I'd feel better about seeing him go if the Giants had drafted a decent 3-4 DE prospect this year. You can't have everything, though.
RE: RE: RE: The previous regime felt that Leonard Williams was a core player...  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 10:34 am : link
In comment 15705158 Klaatu said:
Quote:


I'm not a big fan of Williams. To me, he's an unspectacular player getting paid like a superstar. However, I'd feel better about seeing him go if the Giants had drafted a decent 3-4 DE prospect this year. You can't have everything, though.


He is a solid player getting paid fmv for the production he puts up and he's been ultra reliable in terms of health. Like it or not he has consistently put up as many pressures/tfls/sacks as any non-Donald DL and if he was on a team like the Steelers or Ravens or the Rams he'd be viewed in a very different context.

The only way to become a more productive and less injury prone roster is to add more productive and less injury prone players, but guys who fit that description are in demand so they cost $, especially DL.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The previous regime felt that Leonard Williams was a core player...  
Klaatu : 5/11/2022 11:09 am : link
In comment 15705164 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15705158 Klaatu said:


Quote:




I'm not a big fan of Williams. To me, he's an unspectacular player getting paid like a superstar. However, I'd feel better about seeing him go if the Giants had drafted a decent 3-4 DE prospect this year. You can't have everything, though.



He is a solid player getting paid fmv for the production he puts up and he's been ultra reliable in terms of health. Like it or not he has consistently put up as many pressures/tfls/sacks as any non-Donald DL and if he was on a team like the Steelers or Ravens or the Rams he'd be viewed in a very different context.

The only way to become a more productive and less injury prone roster is to add more productive and less injury prone players, but guys who fit that description are in demand so they cost $, especially DL.


Solid is not spectacular. DeForest Buckner is spectacular.
Glad more people are open to keeping Williams  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/11/2022 11:20 am : link
Very talented and plays a of plays. Max effort and he draws attention. If the build a better and deeper front it will only enhance his performance imv.

The problem with getting rid of good players is you need solutions and they have a lot of needs and may need to use significant capital to get a rookie QB. As the cap grows good players will be even more expensive.

I think a lot of decisions will be based on what they do a QB. If they reset the QB contract they will have tons of space.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The previous regime felt that Leonard Williams was a core player...  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 11:36 am : link
In comment 15705202 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 15705164 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 15705158 Klaatu said:


Quote:




I'm not a big fan of Williams. To me, he's an unspectacular player getting paid like a superstar. However, I'd feel better about seeing him go if the Giants had drafted a decent 3-4 DE prospect this year. You can't have everything, though.



He is a solid player getting paid fmv for the production he puts up and he's been ultra reliable in terms of health. Like it or not he has consistently put up as many pressures/tfls/sacks as any non-Donald DL and if he was on a team like the Steelers or Ravens or the Rams he'd be viewed in a very different context.

The only way to become a more productive and less injury prone roster is to add more productive and less injury prone players, but guys who fit that description are in demand so they cost $, especially DL.



Solid is not spectacular. DeForest Buckner is spectacular.


that's where i think there's some hyperbole/grass being greener because 1 of them is on a good team and the other isnt. production wise they are in the same tier among basically 5-10 DL that play as many snaps as they do and generate pressures/sacks/tfls/qb hits at a comparable level to good edge rushers. pff ranked both of them right near each other each of the last 2 seasons.

buckner is ahead of williams within that tier - that's why he cost a first round pick via trade and got 20% more of his contract guaranteed than lw. but they are both in a pretty select group of the top 10% of IDL by productivity over the past 3-5 years (and paid commensurately with all the same comps we've been talking about for the last 3 years that make the same AAV as williams - Chris Jones, Grady Jarrett, Jonathan Allen, etc).
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The previous regime felt that Leonard Williams was a core player...  
chick310 : 5/11/2022 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15705202 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 15705164 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 15705158 Klaatu said:


Quote:




I'm not a big fan of Williams. To me, he's an unspectacular player getting paid like a superstar. However, I'd feel better about seeing him go if the Giants had drafted a decent 3-4 DE prospect this year. You can't have everything, though.



He is a solid player getting paid fmv for the production he puts up and he's been ultra reliable in terms of health. Like it or not he has consistently put up as many pressures/tfls/sacks as any non-Donald DL and if he was on a team like the Steelers or Ravens or the Rams he'd be viewed in a very different context.

The only way to become a more productive and less injury prone roster is to add more productive and less injury prone players, but guys who fit that description are in demand so they cost $, especially DL.



Solid is not spectacular. DeForest Buckner is spectacular.


Agreed. Plenty of interior DL that are more consistently impactful than Leonard WIlliams. He is a good player in a lower tier than the All-Pro guys but being paid at their level.

Donald (his own tier), Buckner, Jones, Clark, Heyward, Simmons, Vea. And a few young guys that are coming up behind them.
Thanks for the info  
Jonesin 4 A Ship : 5/11/2022 12:28 pm : link
Eric and Christian…it makes sense now
RE: Logan Ryan should still be a Giant  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/11/2022 12:38 pm : link
In comment 15704677 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
So, you can remove $11.5 million of the dead money.

Oh, ok. Neat.
RE: RE: This is why Schoen...  
bw in dc : 5/11/2022 12:45 pm : link
In comment 15705074 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
In comment 15704638 bw in dc said:


Quote:


should have gone even further and used 2022 as the Year of Total Cap Pain. Cut/trade LW, Barkley, Jones, Martinez, KG, etc.

And level with the fan base by telling them we are going for the short term, excruciating pain for long-term gain by essentially becoming an expansion franchise.

Smart fans will understand. Daft, emotional fans will get over it.



Except that is an overly emotional, simplistic way of looking at things. Joe Schoen doesn't (and shouldn't) have 5 years to turn this around. Very few are expecting a winning season, but they are expecting to see the boat turning around. Sinking it and trying to build another one is not what the best people do in high performing jobs.

As emotionally satisfying as it would be to just cut everybody and announce you were starting with an expansion team, it would be a stupid move. It would signal to the rest of the league that your organization is floundering and you fix problems with bombs and not scalpels.

I think there is still fat on this roster that should be trimmed. Should they release everybody and start over? If they do, Schoen and Daboll were very poor hires.


Why is starting over a bad thing? This organization has been floundering for nine of the last ten years. I don't care what the rest of the league thinks. I care about finally getting it right with the right decision makers. But the key is admitting you have a problem and being honest with the fans.

If you consider the 49ers a well-run organization, you may find this interesting. Jed York signed Shanahan and Lynch to six-year deals for a reason. And they also inherited a lot of turbulence at QB and throughout the roster.

York realized the circumstances, and that it was going to take time to fix and fill all of the holes. So, even after Shanahan and Lynch went 10-22 in their first two years, York had the right perspective of the situation.

That's good ownership and trusting the process. Hell, I would have been just fine giving the same timeline to Schoen and Daboll because they are walking into the Chernobyl of the NFL.

Jed York - 2019 - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: The previous regime felt that Leonard Williams was a core player...  
.McL. : 5/11/2022 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15705158 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 15705141 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 15705137 Klaatu said:


Quote:


They could build around. I wonder if the current regime feels the same way?



we will find out this year, if he is they will likely extend him next offseason and if not he'll get cut or traded elsewhere somewhere he wants to extend. Like Bradberry there's almost no chance he plays out the year on his existing deal.

it's not even totally unrealistic that he could get traded before the deadline, though it would take some financial maneuvering.



I'm not a big fan of Williams. To me, he's an unspectacular player getting paid like a superstar. However, I'd feel better about seeing him go if the Giants had drafted a decent 3-4 DE prospect this year. You can't have everything, though.

Agreed. I think $26M is well above fair market value for him. Unless something changes dramatically, I can't see the current regime wanting to pay that much for a non-All Pro interior DL. It would be different if he were an Edge...
A few thoughts  
Matt M. : 5/11/2022 1:20 pm : link
1) I'm fine with the dead money. It was a necessary evil this year to start building this team back up. On paper, I already REALLY like the overall plans of Schoen and Daboll.

2) Re: Williams - The franchise tag was way above his value and the contract is as well. That is why I never liked the trade in the first place. This is too often mistaken for not linking him as a player. I do like him and I love the production in 2020. However, that was the only really good year of his career. Other than that, he has been a good to very good, but not spectacular player. Expecting and paying for more was not wise. I would much rather have tried to sign him as a FA, than trade for the right to tag him and pay through the roof.

3) Without the option for Jones, he and Barkley are dead weight this year. But, trading either would have been very difficult. As long as both are gone next year, we'll be in better shape. That is pretty much regardless of how they play this year. For Barkley, given his injury history, I just wouldn't re-sign him, period. Jones, as I've said before, should only be re-signed if he has an other worldly season, which is so highly unlikely it's not even worth thinking about.
calling LW a 26m player is as dumb as saying he was a 9m player lst yr  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 2:27 pm : link
cap hits are manipulated year over year and that has less to do with the player and more to do with the team's objectives. guaranteed money and AAV are the mile markers of what that player is.

Here's who Williams is clustered with on both (with the year the contracts were signed):

per year
Donald 22.5 (signed 2018 his next deal will prob be 25m-30m AAV)
Williams 21 (signed 2021)
Buckner 21 (signed 2020)
Jones 20 (signed 2020)
Allen 18.5 (signed 2021)
Jarrett 18 (signed 2019)

guaranteed $
Donald 87m
Jones 60m
Buckner 56m
Williams 45m
Vea 40.5m (signed 2021)
Jarrett 38m (he also just parlayed that deal into 34m in new gtd)

the next group down after those guys are mostly the elite NT's whose pass rushing stats are a fraction of that top group (Clark, Vea, Reader).

here's the simple chronology as it pertained to Williams:

in 2020 from day 1 Grady Jarrett's deal from 2019 was the most relevant comp - which was already above the value of the tag. That's the comp that got Jones/Buckner 20m per year because they were better players. LW was quoted by Vachianno as saying he thought he was in the tier of guys below Aaron Donald and he was willing to play on a tag to prove it. I have said from literally day 1 of the trade that 16m tag was inevitable because he was coming off a year where the Jets had paid him 14m or 15m. Nobody negotiates down on the cusp of FA. Had he been extended in 2020 it would have been around 17m-19m per year and slotted him below Jones/Buckner.

in the 2021 offseason LW was going to get paid because he put up 11.5 sack, 14 tfl, 30 qb hit year on a top 10 defense. They tagged him and did a pretty good job splitting the difference, he got the AAV his performance justified but he got less guaranteed money. The alternative was letting him walk and recouping what likely would have been a 3rd round comp pick.

i'd have probably resigned him but the giants mistake was the structure of the balloon salary payments for all of the contracts they did last year, and all the restructures they did that made contracts like Bradberry's, which was initially a flat deal year to year a similar balloon year. In 2020 they did PAYG for all their contracts and it was a very good offseason. In 2021 they got aggressive and they went all in on the wrong hand, which is why there's a new player at the table. In terms of timing to get aggressive it wasn't totally wrong - like having 4 suited cards on a flush draw - but that doesn't make it any less of a failure when you don't hit it.
Given the Barkley issues, I just don’t understand why they had to  
Ivan15 : 5/11/2022 2:55 pm : link
Release Booker. It isn’t like they have a replacement who can do what Barkley is SUPPOSED to do.

Ryan never should have been given another contract. He looked good for one year but he was pushing 30 and admitted that he should be playing safety - not CB. His versatility was valuable for the 1st year but then it became obvious that he was no longer an effective CB.
RE: Cut the fat  
Joe Beckwith : 5/11/2022 2:59 pm : link
In comment 15704778 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
This season so we can move forward the right way for once


Would make about 80M+ dead cap, consuming 40% of our cap.
And we’d need to replace them.

LW would likely still be marketable, but if not, it’s better to move that hit.
Jackson, Golladay , couple of others: we’ll see.
 
christian : 5/11/2022 3:03 pm : link
I’ve come to believe there’s nothing magical about trying to keep the balance sheet even year to year for a player.

I think the only real cost metric to worry about on a per contract basis is the guaranteed money.

Much like taking a mortgage or car loan, some big purchases are better on terms. Some are better in cash upfront. It just depends on where you are financially. Borrowing money isn’t a flaw if you understand the implications.

With Leonard Williams they committed to two years and 45M. It’s not a tragedy of a contract. But if he puts up a 22 pressure/5TL season like last year — he shouldn’t get the 3rd year at 18M.

A 22 pressure/5TFL is in range to what BJ Hill produced for Cinci last year.
no disagreement if they don't get a '20 year he's next years bradberry  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 3:13 pm : link
they may be in good enough cap position to not be as over a barrel as they were this year and simply let the contract play out for a future comp pick, but who knows. it entirely depends on how he does on the field.

in terms of contract structure the key is you need to be extending guys early because that gets the most favorable terms. hitting on mid to late round picks is also key because on the whole they are a lot easier to entice into long term deals than first round picks who have already received 20m+ guaranteed and have a built in transition tag year (5yo).

the closer any player is to UFA the more you are going to UFA prices. Up market free agency is a tool that should be used sparingly, same with structuring/restructuring mid-level contracts to have years that turn into up market deals like Bradberry's this year.
RE: …  
bw in dc : 5/11/2022 3:22 pm : link
In comment 15705424 christian said:
Quote:

With Leonard Williams they committed to two years and 45M. It’s not a tragedy of a contract. But if he puts up a 22 pressure/5TL season like last year — he shouldn’t get the 3rd year at 18M.


That contract was/is a tragedy because that money could have been better spent on plugging the gaping holes on the OL.

I think you and I noodled this at the time (or maybe it was cosmicj), but that money could have been better spent on Corey Linsley and/or Joe Thuney and/or Daryl Williams.

Re-signing Williams was done to save face for a horrible trade decision in 2019.
Leonard Williams could be primed for another big year  
David B. : 5/11/2022 3:32 pm : link
Williams gets a lot of double-teaming at the moment. Offenses won't be able to do as much of that nearly as much if Ojulari and Thibodeaux can provide decent pressure from the edges.
 
christian : 5/11/2022 3:39 pm : link
The best outcome is always big productivity from a small contract — whether that’s a late round pick or veteran.

When it comes to big dollar 2nd contracts, the only benefit with your own player is if you can extend early and get maybe one year below market.

But realistically whether you’re extending your player or signing a UFA, the top performers cost a lot on their 2nd deal. The key is probably only signing guys who have a few big years on their belt to avoid a fluke.

All things equal I would have preferred Thuney because he had a track record of being excellent. Williams had one excellent year.

But the players get a say too, and Thuney was always picking KC over NY if the money was equal.
RE: Leonard Williams could be primed for another big year  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/11/2022 4:07 pm : link
In comment 15705473 David B. said:
Quote:
Williams gets a lot of double-teaming at the moment. Offenses won't be able to do as much of that nearly as much if Ojulari and Thibodeaux can provide decent pressure from the edges.


Bingo.
If you were ranking the bad uses of $ last year LW is last on the list  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 4:31 pm : link
Engram and Golladay had negative ROI.
Booker and Rudolph and all the wasted low level stuff above minimum next.
Jackson after that.
Williams last.

The first 2 groups were almost 20m of wasted cap that was below replacement level production. They could have traded Engram for a pick, signed Thuney (or even easier just kept Zeitler), and instead of pursuing a bunch of expensive veterans who were replacement level or worse just signed a bunch of depth players on motivated 1 year deals.

the biggest reasons they improved down the stretch in 2020 were the OL and DL. They weakened both and spent a bunch of money on offensive players they thought would make Garretts 1999 offense work and it didn't.
Leonard is the one that shouldn't be in that chart....  
Jimmy Googs : 5/11/2022 6:55 pm : link
Quote:
per year
Donald 22.5 (signed 2018 his next deal will prob be 25m-30m AAV)
Williams 21 (signed 2021)
Buckner 21 (signed 2020)
Jones 20 (signed 2020)
Allen 18.5 (signed 2021)
Jarrett 18 (signed 2019)



He shouldn't have been had by Getts via his screwed up process or Free agency in the next tier just under Jarrett at somewhere around $15-17M tops. And more importantly, should he have been had at all based on the position he plays and where you want to allocate dollars for his true level of production (non All-Pro). At the level I mentioned, it's probably a push, anything above you walk away if you're the NY Giants.

Mistake to trade for without a deal in hand, mistake to franchise tag, mistake to make him such a highly paid player and now one of the next cap problems...
disagree on most of those points - we all agree engram sucks right?  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 7:20 pm : link
and yet he just got a 1 year deal at basically the exact same amount as a franchise tag. off his 5th year option which is the amount of a transition tag.

even in 2020 the tag amount was likely very close to the minimum of what Williams would have gotten on the FA market - and williams proved over that year he was more than comfortable betting on himself.

you can say you'd still pass at that number (which he played on and got 11.5 sacks)
or
the 3rd round pick was more than a pass rushing DL is worth

but i'd disagree on both. the difference in trade cost between him and buckner was bigger than the difference in their abilities on the field. Williams has made plays in basically every game as a giant and he's played through injuries when he could have shut it down. if they turn the corner it will be because they find more players like him not fewer. the compensation they had to pay him was a function of where he was in his career when they got him (approaching UFA).
RE: Leonard is the one that shouldn't be in that chart....  
bw in dc : 5/11/2022 7:31 pm : link
In comment 15705639 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:


Mistake to trade for without a deal in hand, mistake to franchise tag, mistake to make him such a highly paid player and now one of the next cap problems...


I would edit this down to say it was simply a mistake to trade for LW. DG did the exact opposite of what he should have done back in 2019. We should have been sellers at the trade deadline, not buyers. The idea made zero sense for a team toiling at the time. I believe we were 2-6?!?

DG...D for Dumb
RE: disagree on most of those points - we all agree engram sucks right?  
Jimmy Googs : 5/11/2022 7:36 pm : link
In comment 15705668 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
and yet he just got a 1 year deal at basically the exact same amount as a franchise tag. off his 5th year option which is the amount of a transition tag.

even in 2020 the tag amount was likely very close to the minimum of what Williams would have gotten on the FA market - and williams proved over that year he was more than comfortable betting on himself.

you can say you'd still pass at that number (which he played on and got 11.5 sacks)
or
the 3rd round pick was more than a pass rushing DL is worth

but i'd disagree on both. the difference in trade cost between him and buckner was bigger than the difference in their abilities on the field. Williams has made plays in basically every game as a giant and he's played through injuries when he could have shut it down. if they turn the corner it will be because they find more players like him not fewer. the compensation they had to pay him was a function of where he was in his career when they got him (approaching UFA).


Disagree all you want. It’s not making this look transaction any better for our Giants…
RE: RE: Leonard is the one that shouldn't be in that chart....  
Jimmy Googs : 5/11/2022 7:38 pm : link
In comment 15705690 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15705639 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:




Mistake to trade for without a deal in hand, mistake to franchise tag, mistake to make him such a highly paid player and now one of the next cap problems...



I would edit this down to say it was simply a mistake to trade for LW. DG did the exact opposite of what he should have done back in 2019. We should have been sellers at the trade deadline, not buyers. The idea made zero sense for a team toiling at the time. I believe we were 2-6?!?

DG...D for Dumb


I covered that point in my post above…should they have ever even targeted him based on what he plays and where this team was.
by approx value or pretty much any metric he's still their best player  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 8:00 pm : link
he cost a 3rd round pick and a contract in line with FA prices. like many i was in the zack baun fan club that draft and after 2 years i think we can come to grips with that loss. are you as delusional as DG to think any player would sign under market that close to UFA?

"but he got paid like buckner!" so would you swap the 2 of them today at the cost of next years 2nd round pick (which is the approximate difference in the draft pick values each cost their team)? my guess is you will say you don't want either one because indecision is your second best friend after bw.

the team sucks. that doesn't mean every player sucks.
He’s overpaid. Of course he’s a good player and maybe the best  
Jimmy Googs : 5/11/2022 8:25 pm : link
on the Giants. But what the hell does that have to do with giving anyone a contract far more than his worth...
RE: He’s overpaid. Of course he’s a good player and maybe the best  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 8:33 pm : link
In comment 15705780 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
on the Giants. But what the hell does that have to do with giving anyone a contract far more than his worth...


you've talked about buckner for like 2 years.

assume all $ equal, would you trade williams + next years 2nd for Buckner?
Indecision is my second best friend...what are u babbling about now?  
Jimmy Googs : 5/11/2022 8:35 pm : link
I am nowhere near the wait n’ see crowd on almost any topic.

Don’t get sore because I don’t throw the franchise tag around in every post like it’s a addictive drug to keep every underperforming overvalued NYG...
RE: RE: He’s overpaid. Of course he’s a good player and maybe the best  
Jimmy Googs : 5/11/2022 8:38 pm : link
In comment 15705794 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15705780 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


on the Giants. But what the hell does that have to do with giving anyone a contract far more than his worth...



you've talked about buckner for like 2 years.

assume all $ equal, would you trade williams + next years 2nd for Buckner?


I don’t talk about Buckner at all actually other than when posters want an example of why LW is overpaid. Typically that is you because you have underwritten this awful deal from the start for the DG fan club...
RE: RE: RE: He’s overpaid. Of course he’s a good player and maybe the best  
bw in dc : 5/11/2022 8:49 pm : link
In comment 15705805 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

I don’t talk about Buckner at all actually other than when posters want an example of why LW is overpaid. Typically that is you because you have underwritten this awful deal from the start for the DG fan club...


It is strange. It's almost like posters need something to hold onto so they view the situation this way - "Yeah, the Giants are horrible, but at least we have Leonard Williams..." BFD.

I didn't think LW was more than an average player when we traded for him. But he played tremendously in 2020 and pretty well in 2021. And I have always given him credit for betting on himself in 2020. It was a tremendous gamble with a fair amount of risk.

But his acquisition has not moved the wins needle. He is a WAR-neutral player. Indeed, a good/good+ player, but overpaid and eating cap resources we could have used for far bigger needs.
What could the Giants have had with the money spent  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/11/2022 9:04 pm : link
On Williams, for instance.

It's not like OL was any less of an issue in 2020-2021.

Good player who is wildly overpaid relative to his production on a team with numerous vast holes and limited budget.

Plain and simple.
It’s no different than much of the fan base that overvalues  
Jimmy Googs : 5/11/2022 9:05 pm : link
NYG players in an emotional fashion...Eli, Saquon, Leonard, etc.

Hitching your wagon to almost anything this prior regime did the past four years is bad enough. Continuing to argue the bad judgment and stating reasons like “but he’s one of the best players on our 4-win team” is simply eye-rolling...
RE: What could the Giants have had with the money spent  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 9:13 pm : link
In comment 15705841 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
On Williams, for instance.

It's not like OL was any less of an issue in 2020-2021.

Good player who is wildly overpaid relative to his production on a team with numerous vast holes and limited budget.

Plain and simple.


That’s covered above they could have had both. Literally every other FA they spent $ on last year was worse roi than Williams - who is at least a good player and stayed on the field. The problem wasn’t spending a lot of $ on Williams it was spending a lot more on players a lot worse.
Awful,contract, underperforms vs comp peers, not an ideal position  
Jimmy Googs : 5/11/2022 9:33 pm : link
to invest in as one of your highest paid players, upcoming cap problem.

Leonard checks a lot of boxes...
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