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With Daboll/Kafka adding Robinson alongside Toney...

Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2022 4:30 pm
I think we're about to see a type of offensive system that is at the cutting edge of the NFL.

Whether the QB can handle it is a different subject, but the mix of what Daboll did in Buffalo, Kafka's experience in KC, and the skill set of newly acquired Robinson to go along with Toney, I just get the sense we're going into unchartered for Giants fans.

I also think we're going to see Saquon's pass receptions #s to approach his rookie season numbers (if he stays healthy and/or doesn't get traded in season).
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Whaaat no more 3 yards and a cloud of dust??  
AG5686 : 5/11/2022 4:36 pm : link
?
If the QB can do it  
AnnapolisMike : 5/11/2022 4:37 pm : link
The Giants might have a fun offense to watch this season. Say what you will about Jones, but teams will have to account for his ability to run the ball. They will need it, because the defense is probably going to be suspect.
I have to agree  
OBJRoyal : 5/11/2022 4:37 pm : link
We won’t be calling it ground and pound. 3 yards and a cloud of dust no more
here's an article from last year comparing the BUF & KC offenses  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 4:38 pm : link
The most interesting thing about the article imo is the heat map of Patrick Mahomes targets. If you overlap Wan'Dale Robinson's heat map from UK on top of KC 2021 it's almost exactly the same. It's very easy to see Barkley also operating in a lot of these areas.



A lot more in the article but either way it's at least understandable why schoen would roll the dice on 2 key of the brains behind those offenses leading this one forward (wherever that goes).
How the Bills and Chiefs Found Their Form—and Set Up the Best Divisional-Round Matchup - ( New Window )
Its almost like  
winoguy : 5/11/2022 4:38 pm : link
we've joined the 21st century...
I'm hoping for victory formation  
cjac : 5/11/2022 4:40 pm : link
on 3rd and 15
________  
I am Ninja : 5/11/2022 4:42 pm : link
I strongly disagree with all of this. This does not jive at all with run on 1st and 10; run on 2nd and 8; pass on 3rd and 7.
RE: Its almost like  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2022 4:42 pm : link
In comment 15705513 winoguy said:
Quote:
we've joined the 21st century...


We're certainly going to stress linebackers and safeties a ton with Barkley, Robinson, and Toney.

I also think Jones will be able to get a better read on opposing defenses as we will motion a ton. When you motion your receivers, it helps the QB tell what kind of coverage the defense is employing.

The Giants were archaic with their lack of motion the last couple of seasons.
Garrett was archaic in every way and Judge had no instinct to attack  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 4:44 pm : link
the combination was perhaps the most cowardly offensive football ever witnessed.
Pass/Run Ratios  
Go Terps : 5/11/2022 4:47 pm : link
Here are the Bills' pass/run ratios starting when Daboll took over as the OC in 2018:

2018: 499/468, 51.6% pass - 16.8 PPG, Buffalo went 6-10 *Josh Allen's rookie season
2019: 513/465, 52.5% pass - 19.6 PPG, 10-6
2020: 596/411, 59.2% pass - 31.3 PPG, 13-3 *Stefon Diggs's first year
2021: 655/461, 58.7% pass - 28.4 PPG, 11-6

I expect 2022 to look like Buffalo's 2018. I think as Schoen turns the roster over and finds his QB and stud WR we may see them ramp up the passing to around the 60% number. Passing is what wins games.
I think Daboll wants to be able to spread the offense  
robbieballs2003 : 5/11/2022 4:47 pm : link
Golladay is a vertical guy but I expect a lot more horizontal game. Garrett ran vertical routes cut short, not really horizontal routes. We all complained about the all hitches play. It is such a dumbass play. It's one read and you're fucked if your guy didn't win. Jones looks like he can't read a defense. Expect more creative reverses, crossing routes, pick plays, middle of the field throws when holes open up, etc.
RE: Pass/Run Ratios  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2022 4:50 pm : link
In comment 15705523 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Here are the Bills' pass/run ratios starting when Daboll took over as the OC in 2018:

2018: 499/468, 51.6% pass - 16.8 PPG, Buffalo went 6-10 *Josh Allen's rookie season
2019: 513/465, 52.5% pass - 19.6 PPG, 10-6
2020: 596/411, 59.2% pass - 31.3 PPG, 13-3 *Stefon Diggs's first year
2021: 655/461, 58.7% pass - 28.4 PPG, 11-6

I expect 2022 to look like Buffalo's 2018. I think as Schoen turns the roster over and finds his QB and stud WR we may see them ramp up the passing to around the 60% number. Passing is what wins games.


I'm not sure Daboll at the WRs to spread the Bills offense in his first couple of years. He may be able to do that sooner now. I really think that's why they "forced" the Robinson pick.
What a treat it will be  
JonnyR : 5/11/2022 4:53 pm : link
to have two quality tackles (and some actual NFL-caliber interior players), once Neal gets over his rookie growing pains!

That's when we'll get a good feel for what's possible in the new game plan.
The added benefit is that...  
Milton : 5/11/2022 4:56 pm : link
They don't lose a chunk of their playbook if one of them misses time due to injury. Including Barkley, that's three guys we have who can make things happen in the open field and in the slightly open field as well. Two out of the three have a recent history of injuries and the third weighs less than a 180 pounds, but there is a strength in numbers that allows Dabol to design a significant amount of plays that are all about YAC.
I think we'll see a lot of quick hitters and underneath stuff  
bigblue5611 : 5/11/2022 4:59 pm : link
like what we've seen out of KC with Hill, LAR with Kupp, etc. Getting the ball to SB, KT and WR quick and in space and let them do their thing. Eventually opening up KG for one on one's down the field as well. Will be nice if Bellinger develops further to provide the safety valve when the attention is being paid to the others as well.
Eric  
Go Terps : 5/11/2022 5:00 pm : link
I'm not sure we do either. Golladay didn't fit that style, Toney's presence is a question mark every week, who knows what Barkley is, and Robinson is a rookie. And Jones is still the QB.

I agree with you that spreading the field in a pass heavy offense is where we're going, but I don't think we have the pieces. I think the offensive personnel is going to be hugely different in 2023 (no Jones, Barkley, Golladay, and maybe Toney), and then we'll start to see the influx of people to make this style of offense work.
Agree that we should see a significant change in play design  
Mike from Ohio : 5/11/2022 5:00 pm : link
I think this offense will look to spread the field and motion guys for the reasons Eric stated - make reads easier for Jones. I also think there will be much more focus on getting the ball out quickly to get guys in space.

I do expect to see Jones on several designed runs per game, but they will not run him into the ground. Hopefully they are working with him on protecting himself when he runs instead of the hero ball, 'run through the guy's chest with your head' stuff we have seen from him far too often.
RE: The added benefit is that...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2022 5:00 pm : link
In comment 15705532 Milton said:
Quote:
They don't lose a chunk of their playbook if one of them misses time due to injury. Including Barkley, that's three guys we have who can make things happen in the open field and in the slightly open field as well. Two out of the three have a recent history of injuries and the third weighs less than a 180 pounds, but there is a strength in numbers that allows Dabol to design a significant amount of plays that are all about YAC.


Good point.
*Golladay doesn't fit that style  
Go Terps : 5/11/2022 5:00 pm : link
.
RE: RE: Pass/Run Ratios  
Angel Eyes : 5/11/2022 5:01 pm : link
In comment 15705529 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15705523 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Here are the Bills' pass/run ratios starting when Daboll took over as the OC in 2018:

2018: 499/468, 51.6% pass - 16.8 PPG, Buffalo went 6-10 *Josh Allen's rookie season
2019: 513/465, 52.5% pass - 19.6 PPG, 10-6
2020: 596/411, 59.2% pass - 31.3 PPG, 13-3 *Stefon Diggs's first year
2021: 655/461, 58.7% pass - 28.4 PPG, 11-6

I expect 2022 to look like Buffalo's 2018. I think as Schoen turns the roster over and finds his QB and stud WR we may see them ramp up the passing to around the 60% number. Passing is what wins games.



I'm not sure Daboll at the WRs to spread the Bills offense in his first couple of years. He may be able to do that sooner now. I really think that's why they "forced" the Robinson pick.

So is it possible Schoen and Daboll will let the Golladay contract play out since he doesn't appear to be a fit in the system? It's telling that they didn't get someone to replace him or as a good backup given his injury history (unless you want to rely on David Sills).
they are going to try to pump and dump golladay  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 5:02 pm : link
and if they get lucky the escalating WR costs will allow them to do that.

i expect he will almost function like Dawson Knox or Kelce in terms of how they use him as a receiver.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2022 5:02 pm : link
In comment 15705534 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm not sure we do either. Golladay didn't fit that style, Toney's presence is a question mark every week, who knows what Barkley is, and Robinson is a rookie. And Jones is still the QB.

I agree with you that spreading the field in a pass heavy offense is where we're going, but I don't think we have the pieces. I think the offensive personnel is going to be hugely different in 2023 (no Jones, Barkley, Golladay, and maybe Toney), and then we'll start to see the influx of people to make this style of offense work.


I'm dying to know what Daboll/Kafka think about Golladay and how they plan to use him.

I can't imagine they want that contract on the books longer than needed.

Long-term roster building, I think the Giants ideally still want a QB1 (assuming Jones isn't the guy), WR1, and CB1.

RE: Eric  
JB_in_DC : 5/11/2022 5:04 pm : link
In comment 15705534 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm not sure we do either. Golladay didn't fit that style, Toney's presence is a question mark every week, who knows what Barkley is, and Robinson is a rookie. And Jones is still the QB.

I agree with you that spreading the field in a pass heavy offense is where we're going, but I don't think we have the pieces. I think the offensive personnel is going to be hugely different in 2023 (no Jones, Barkley, Golladay, and maybe Toney), and then we'll start to see the influx of people to make this style of offense work.


Not expecting a training wheels approach in 2022. The time for that has come and passed for Jones. Open up the playbook and whatever happens, you won't have any more questions at the end of the year.

2018 Buffalo they were working with a QB from Wyoming who through 56%. It was smart to be patient in that circumstance. Plus how much of that is McDermott dictating the gameplan?
id most like to hear their assessment of the last regime's scheme  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 5:04 pm : link
it was literally the exact opposite of everything KC/BUF did to put defenses in uncomfortable positions.
I don’t know how many LBs can be on the field  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 5/11/2022 5:08 pm : link
With KT and Robinson in the game. It opens up the field for Saquan.
I think Jones could possibly have a career year  
widmerseyebrow : 5/11/2022 5:12 pm : link
but still not be the guy we (Schoen?) would want to keep going forward. It could be a weird dynamic if Mara injects himself. But I'll worry about that another day.
Link  
BSIMatt : 5/11/2022 5:13 pm : link
.
Kadarius Toney and Wan'Dale Robinson set to explode under the Giants Kafka/Daboll system - ( New Window )
Link  
BSIMatt : 5/11/2022 5:14 pm : link
.
Kadarius Toney and Wan'Dale Robinson set to explode under the Giants Kafka/Daboll system - ( New Window )
RE: … offensive system that is at the cutting edge  
Trainmaster : 5/11/2022 5:15 pm : link
We had “cutting edge” last year.

Name another team that took a knee inside their own 5 yard line once last year; the Giants did it twice on consecutive plays. That’s cutting edge!

🤦‍♂️
RE: Link  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2022 5:18 pm : link
In comment 15705552 BSIMatt said:
Quote:
. Kadarius Toney and Wan'Dale Robinson set to explode under the Giants Kafka/Daboll system - ( New Window )


I think those two do a good job. I've been watching them the past couple of weeks.

I also like listening to Nick Falato...that guy knows his stuff.
If  
Toth029 : 5/11/2022 5:18 pm : link
Daboll only averages 16-17 PPG with Jones it's an utterly failure.

Judge and Garrett had more last year with Jones playing and Garrett's scheme was abysmal.

Definitely see a more balanced approach but it's going to a far more expensive (per play call, that is) than we've seen here in quite some time.
More  
Toth029 : 5/11/2022 5:19 pm : link
Explosive, not expensive.

If Golladay, Toney and Robinson are healthy, these dudes will wreck.
there's no reason they shouldn't be over 20 ppg like shurmur 2019  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2022 5:20 pm : link
believe slayton was the leading WR on that team.

they went from a 2015 offense with Shurmur to a 1999 offense with Garrett.
RE: If  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2022 5:21 pm : link
In comment 15705556 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Daboll only averages 16-17 PPG with Jones it's an utterly failure.

Judge and Garrett had more last year with Jones playing and Garrett's scheme was abysmal.

Definitely see a more balanced approach but it's going to a far more expensive (per play call, that is) than we've seen here in quite some time.


Plus the offensive line will allow them to do more. Solder was a turnstile out there. Solder, Price, and Skura are still unemployed. Hernandez was allowed to walk. RT and RG will be vastly improved. I think Feliciano is being underrated around here... and he knows Daboll's system so their will be no huge learning curve for him (which also helps out Jones with protection calls).
I actually think Golladay  
jvm52106 : 5/11/2022 5:22 pm : link
will essentially be used as the big bodied receiver (ala in place of the TE) a lot in multiple sets.

Go Terps, for now let's assume Jones is the QB (this year for sure) and say Eric is still right about what they will want to do with the system.

Toney will basically be the Davis/Hardman guy (Bills/Chiefs), Golladay will be the experienced WR the Sanders/Gordon guy (Bills/Chiefs). Robinson will be the Beasley guy (Chiefs didn't have another guy specifcially that fits this role) and what we are missing is our Diggs/Hill guy.

Barkley will be more the receiving threat than tyhe rushing threat in this new offense and could be the #1 weapon ala Hill/Diggs but coming out of the backfield or lining up wide.

What we become is VARIED, something we have not been in a LONG time.
I prefer building the offense through the  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/11/2022 5:24 pm : link
running game. Even more so if they go QB next draft.

Lots of ways to score points and best to have balance and be successful both ways based on the matchup and scheme however the percentages fall.

No doubt BD wants to spread it and air it especially with a elite QB and some outstanding weapons. Still it was not being able to run between the tackles that sent him home in Jan.

RE: I actually think Golladay  
jvm52106 : 5/11/2022 5:25 pm : link
In comment 15705564 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
will essentially be used as the big bodied receiver (ala in place of the TE) a lot in multiple sets.

Go Terps, for now let's assume Jones is the QB (this year for sure) and say Eric is still right about what they will want to do with the system.

Toney will basically be the Davis/Hardman guy (Bills/Chiefs), Golladay will be the experienced WR the Sanders/Gordon guy (Bills/Chiefs). Robinson will be the Beasley guy (Chiefs didn't have another guy specifcially that fits this role) and what we are missing is our Diggs/Hill guy.

Barkley will be more the receiving threat than tyhe rushing threat in this new offense and could be the #1 weapon ala Hill/Diggs but coming out of the backfield or lining up wide.

What we become is VARIED, something we have not been in a LONG time.


I am not saying it will be a success but, you can see what it will resemble schematically. I think the Oline is a HUGE boost to anything we do and if Jones cna be more efficient with his runs- run less times by design and get more yards when the situation is presented that will open things up even more. Barkley catching the ball will be a big help and keep teams honest as well as reverses to Toney, Robinson and maybe Slayton (though I think he is shown the door soon).

...  
christian : 5/11/2022 5:26 pm : link
The Chiefs and Bills had pretty different offense last year.

Josh Allen was 8th in the NFL in intended air yards, which is a good measure of how deep the system wants targets to be. By contrast Mahomes was 25th.

Allen averaged 6.5 air yards per completion, Mahomes averaged 4.9.

I think Jones is much more of a poor man's Allen than Mahomes, and I think the offense will resemble the Bills more than the Chiefs.

I'll puke if Barkley gets 120 pass targets on a team with Golladay, Toney, and Robinson.
RE: RE: Its almost like  
k2tampa : 5/11/2022 5:28 pm : link
In comment 15705519 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15705513 winoguy said:


Quote:


we've joined the 21st century...



We're certainly going to stress linebackers and safeties a ton with Barkley, Robinson, and Toney.

I also think Jones will be able to get a better read on opposing defenses as we will motion a ton. When you motion your receivers, it helps the QB tell what kind of coverage the defense is employing.

The Giants were archaic with their lack of motion the last couple of seasons.


Last couple of seasons? That made me laugh. The Giants have virtually never snapped the ball in my lifetime while a player was in motion. That kind of motion not only helps with pre-snap reads, it helps the receiver get quick separation.
RE: I prefer building the offense through the  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2022 5:31 pm : link
In comment 15705566 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
running game. Even more so if they go QB next draft.

Lots of ways to score points and best to have balance and be successful both ways based on the matchup and scheme however the percentages fall.

No doubt BD wants to spread it and air it especially with a elite QB and some outstanding weapons. Still it was not being able to run between the tackles that sent him home in Jan.


I don't think we're going in that direction.
RE: RE: I prefer building the offense through the  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/11/2022 5:39 pm : link
In comment 15705573 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15705566 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


running game. Even more so if they go QB next draft.

Lots of ways to score points and best to have balance and be successful both ways based on the matchup and scheme however the percentages fall.

No doubt BD wants to spread it and air it especially with a elite QB and some outstanding weapons. Still it was not being able to run between the tackles that sent him home in Jan.




I don't think we're going in that direction.


It’s pretty surprising to me with BD’s background and I’ll hold ur out hope he’ll develop a strong running game but I agree it’s not likely. I’m also some not thrilled with the hire but I’m on board for now.
Eric is right  
UberAlias : 5/11/2022 5:40 pm : link
They clearly have something very intentional in mind with Robinson. And everyone's initial reaction was, he's similar to Toney, it must mean Toney's time is limited, but their response when it was pointed out that the two are similar: "and is that a bad thing?" says it all. You line a bunch of short area quickness guys out there who can all get a step on you off the line, they can be nearly impossible to cover. But I'm not so sure this hasn't been seen before. The Pats did this for years.
RE: I prefer building the offense through the  
bw in dc : 5/11/2022 5:46 pm : link
In comment 15705566 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
running game. Even more so if they go QB next draft.

Lots of ways to score points and best to have balance and be successful both ways based on the matchup and scheme however the percentages fall.

No doubt BD wants to spread it and air it especially with a elite QB and some outstanding weapons. Still it was not being able to run between the tackles that sent him home in Jan.


Uh, no. Buffalo went out in the playoffs - in overtime - because their defense gave up 42 points despite the offense scoring 36.

It is important to have some running game, but it's no longer a needed centerpiece to be successful in today's NFL.

What will really be revolutionary  
Giantimistic : 5/11/2022 5:49 pm : link
For Giants fans will be a functional online.
RE: ...  
JB_in_DC : 5/11/2022 5:50 pm : link
In comment 15705569 christian said:
Quote:
The Chiefs and Bills had pretty different offense last year.

Josh Allen was 8th in the NFL in intended air yards, which is a good measure of how deep the system wants targets to be. By contrast Mahomes was 25th.

Allen averaged 6.5 air yards per completion, Mahomes averaged 4.9.

I think Jones is much more of a poor man's Allen than Mahomes, and I think the offense will resemble the Bills more than the Chiefs.

I'll puke if Barkley gets 120 pass targets on a team with Golladay, Toney, and Robinson.


Teams did a lot to take away the deep ball from Mahomes and the Chiefs in 2021 with that Fangio Two-High shell look. He was at 6.3 in 2020 and 6.5 in 2019. Gave him serious issues at the beginning of 2021.
Yeah  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2022 5:50 pm : link
I don't know how anyone could have watched Buffalo last year and thought we'd be run-centric.
In theory...  
bw in dc : 5/11/2022 5:52 pm : link
I get the idea behind drafting Robinson and his role.

But until Jones can execute an offense even at an average level, this is really just a dream...
RE: I actually think Golladay  
Go Terps : 5/11/2022 5:53 pm : link
In comment 15705564 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
will essentially be used as the big bodied receiver (ala in place of the TE) a lot in multiple sets.

Go Terps, for now let's assume Jones is the QB (this year for sure) and say Eric is still right about what they will want to do with the system.

Toney will basically be the Davis/Hardman guy (Bills/Chiefs), Golladay will be the experienced WR the Sanders/Gordon guy (Bills/Chiefs). Robinson will be the Beasley guy (Chiefs didn't have another guy specifcially that fits this role) and what we are missing is our Diggs/Hill guy.

Barkley will be more the receiving threat than tyhe rushing threat in this new offense and could be the #1 weapon ala Hill/Diggs but coming out of the backfield or lining up wide.

What we become is VARIED, something we have not been in a LONG time.


We don't want Barkley catching 90 balls. Barkley is a career 5.7 yards/target player.

It's comforting to blame Shurmur, Judge, and Garrett for the recent offensive ineptitude. But they weren't the only problem.

Our players are not good.

I have high hopes for the rookies, but they're still going to be rookies in 2022. The rest of the players - I wouldn't get used to seeing them around.

I expect the offense to struggle again in 2022; anything over 20 PPG would surprise me. We don't have the players. Schoen needs time to get them.
Pre snap reads  
Spiciest Memelord : 5/11/2022 5:54 pm : link
don't necessarily help you're QB make better reads as defenses disguise a lot. It can in fact unnecessarily complicate the read. Peyton Manning didn't care for it.
RE: RE: I prefer building the offense through the  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/11/2022 5:55 pm : link
In comment 15705582 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15705566 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


running game. Even more so if they go QB next draft.

Lots of ways to score points and best to have balance and be successful both ways based on the matchup and scheme however the percentages fall.

No doubt BD wants to spread it and air it especially with a elite QB and some outstanding weapons. Still it was not being able to run between the tackles that sent him home in Jan.




Uh, no. Buffalo went out in the playoffs - in overtime - because their defense gave up 42 points despite the offense scoring 36.

It is important to have some running game, but it's no longer a needed centerpiece to be successful in today's NFL.


We don’t agree much on Qb’s and offensive football. Reality was KC was about to put that game away until Reid called a very strange play. Buffalo heated up when Matthieu was injured. That 65 yard air strike by Allen was at his replacement. Then Baker was in at corner on top of it.

KC 175 yards on the ground. Buff got exposed on the lines as often happens in playoff football.
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