I think we're about to see a type of offensive system that is at the cutting edge of the NFL.
Whether the QB can handle it is a different subject, but the mix of what Daboll did in Buffalo, Kafka's experience in KC, and the skill set of newly acquired Robinson to go along with Toney, I just get the sense we're going into unchartered for Giants fans.
I also think we're going to see Saquon's pass receptions #s to approach his rookie season numbers (if he stays healthy and/or doesn't get traded in season).
Now that said, I could see Saquon regain much of his form in this offense, especially with more time since the injury.
But I'm on record as saying I would showcase the crap out of him before the trade deadline and then move him.
That's simply not true. Pre-snap movement can help a QB determine if it is man versus zone coverage. That's football 101.
Have to think BD is fully aware of the pass blocking issue and has to find ways around it.
If that is the Giants offense, there will be a lot of defensive players stuffed in tight to the line of scrimmage.
Have to think BD is fully aware of the pass blocking issue and has to find ways around it.
The way around it is to not have him pass blocking. Go empty backfield or use one of these TEs/H-Backs they have now in pass pro.
I would not be shocked to see Matt Breida become a fan favorite (if he can cut down on the fumbling).
Now that said, I could see Saquon regain much of his form in this offense, especially with more time since the injury.
But I'm on record as saying I would showcase the crap out of him before the trade deadline and then move him.
I don't think Barkley's going to be a big weapon in the pass game, and that's a good thing - he's never been particularly effective in that role.
Buffalo didn't throw the ball a ton to the backs - here are their leading targets out of the backfield each year:
18: McCoy (46 targets)
19: Singletary (41)
20: Singletary (50)
21: Singletary (50)
I think Daboll wants to throw the ball to wide receivers who are running at speed. I don't think he's trying to throw the ball to the running back.
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Barkley just wasn't good last year. Yeah, the OL sucked. But he played soft, didn't seem to run with vision, and got tackled too easily. There was a reason why so many people on this site were calling for Booker to get more touches (and he's still unemployed too).
Now that said, I could see Saquon regain much of his form in this offense, especially with more time since the injury.
But I'm on record as saying I would showcase the crap out of him before the trade deadline and then move him.
I don't think Barkley's going to be a big weapon in the pass game, and that's a good thing - he's never been particularly effective in that role.
Buffalo didn't throw the ball a ton to the backs - here are their leading targets out of the backfield each year:
18: McCoy (46 targets)
19: Singletary (41)
20: Singletary (50)
21: Singletary (50)
I think Daboll wants to throw the ball to wide receivers who are running at speed. I don't think he's trying to throw the ball to the running back.
If you're right, there's really no role for Barkley, this year or in the future
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Showcase him and see if someone trades for hm. If his returns to form he still can be very dangerous when he gets space.
Have to think BD is fully aware of the pass blocking issue and has to find ways around it.
The way around it is to not have him pass blocking. Go empty backfield or use one of these TEs/H-Backs they have now in pass pro.
I would not be shocked to see Matt Breida become a fan favorite (if he can cut down on the fumbling).
He will have to figure something out. SB is not changing who he is. My guess is for this year he is get DJ to get the ball out quick. As he said “let it rip”
Maybe someone will trade for Barkley in season (I doubt it), but why would anyone trade for Jones at this point...so they can franchise him? Why wouldn't they just wait until free agency to sign him after 2022?
The only GM stupid enough to make such a trade retired - his name is Dave Gettleman.
The time to trade Jones and probably Barkley has passed. They've got no value anymore.
I wouldn’t look at Barkley’s stats as a reflection of what he was capable of, because the Giants were hamstrung in how they could even use him. He wasn’t running Kamara routes, preponderance of his targets behind the Los.
On top of all that, the only year we had any viable counter punch to Barkley was last year..and both players (Toney or Golladay) were either not on the field, or playing through injury at a suboptimal level.
It doesn't really matter for the purposes of this thread anyway; they're both going to be here in 2022.
I don't think the holdover players are a good fit for the offense Daboll ran in Buffalo. Toney is theoretically, but he fits zero of the smart, tough, dependable criteria.
Regarding Barkley, I've brought up the possibility of him moving to receiver in the past. Running in space is basically the one thing he does well, so get him the ball in space beyond the first level of defenders. But now with the injuries and his contract expiring I imagine Schoen would rather just draft Wan'Dale Robinson and a couple Robinson clones next year and the year after.
Robinson is the guy to watch. We know he's part of the future.
I am really fucking excited. The recent average QBs that have gotten farther than expected have all been in these systems. Less QB driven. More scheme and skill players. Short area quickness players are mandatory. We want to spread it,use motion, throw to the 1v1 or tuck it and run. These will be short passes thrown to guys that are murder 1v1.
Processing will be much less of an issue. I still want much better than Jones but man, I think our O is gonna roll. It masks some of Jones issues and his speed will more deadly if we can get Toney, Robinson and Barkley on the field together. 700 yards on the ground is achievable for Jones. They ran Allen, they will run Jones. Jones is going get TDs on the ground.
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will essentially be used as the big bodied receiver (ala in place of the TE) a lot in multiple sets.
Go Terps, for now let's assume Jones is the QB (this year for sure) and say Eric is still right about what they will want to do with the system.
Toney will basically be the Davis/Hardman guy (Bills/Chiefs), Golladay will be the experienced WR the Sanders/Gordon guy (Bills/Chiefs). Robinson will be the Beasley guy (Chiefs didn't have another guy specifcially that fits this role) and what we are missing is our Diggs/Hill guy.
Barkley will be more the receiving threat than tyhe rushing threat in this new offense and could be the #1 weapon ala Hill/Diggs but coming out of the backfield or lining up wide.
What we become is VARIED, something we have not been in a LONG time.
We don't want Barkley catching 90 balls. Barkley is a career 5.7 yards/target player.
It's comforting to blame Shurmur, Judge, and Garrett for the recent offensive ineptitude. But they weren't the only problem.
Our players are not good.
I have high hopes for the rookies, but they're still going to be rookies in 2022. The rest of the players - I wouldn't get used to seeing them around.
I expect the offense to struggle again in 2022; anything over 20 PPG would surprise me. We don't have the players. Schoen needs time to get them.
But here is the problem with your statement, some of our players may very well have been hindered by scheme, staff and certainly other players. Let's say Toney gets his head out of his ass and performs for this new regime the way he did against NO and Dallas last year. That is a HUGE step up.
Robinson is a rookie and that is not to be downplayed BUT, his skills are exactly what DaBoll wants out of certain players on his offense.
Oline, is clearly better than last year just on paper alone. If they perform to even average levels that is a huge step up. That improves everyone, including Jones.
Back to Barkley, your argument statistically about Barkley is flawed (and this is coming from me, a guy who thinks we should have traded Barkley in the offseason). You can't use statistics from past years in an offense that was very underwhelming. All I know is, Barkley 2018 , at least skillset wise, is perfect as a pass catcher. BTW- even if he stays at 5.7 yards that is positive yardage and if he breaks tackles on those receptions we are talking first downs.
Now Jones, the main reason you think all our players suck. You cannot have All-Pro's at every position, just not possible. You also can't change your sliding scale for Jones just because your previous scale numbers seem more than likely met just by having a much better Oline and a varied weaponized attack.
If Jones gets the Giants to plus 22 points a game, with what you say is a below average offense then he has done his job. if he gets us to 24 points a game this offense will be much better than you envision, all the while still needing a true #1 WR and a better TE.
You can't say everyone is horrible but the rookies and think this rebuild will ever be completed. No team, including the Chiefs have great players at every position.
The Giants have improvement still to do, that is without question but, they have talent enough to play against the NFC East and hopefully the rookies come along quickly.
The Oline will be far better and that cannot be discounted.
he was only 60 attempts, 100 yards, and 1 td behind Singletary.
and Zack Moss got another 96 attempts for 345 yards and 4 tds.
so altogether they ranked 6th in rushing with 2200 yards as a team against 1800 for their opponents.
as a function of the passing game they rotated backs heavily but if you add all their targets up they had 96 targets to RBs, which would have been 3rd most on the team behind Diggs and Beasley. That's also not counting any of Isaiah McKenzie's targets in the RB group.
so net-net I expect this to very much a pass first offense, but they are going to use their RBs. I don't think they are going to run Jones as much as Allen because it's just not possible. He will not hold up. And when he's out Taylor won't hold up either. So I think in lieu of QB runs we will see more quick passing plays like the Chiefs utilize to get the ball out of mahomes hands and pick up easy yards. barkley, breida, robinson, toney, james, shepard all fit that.
I don't think slayton or golladay fit, but i do think golladay could fill some of the TE routes Knox ran as an oversized slot.
slayton i think is a goner unless there's an injury in camp. just too 1 dimensional, inconsistent, and no special teams value.
i agree, and i think he was used pretty well in his rookie year. not perfect but well enough that he broke off more big plays than all but a handful of players in the entire NFL be it WR or RB.
his correct usage is the NO game - which only came about because they were down 2 scores in the 4th Q so they had to go pass first.
he had 13 runs in that game for 52 yards, 1 td.
and 5 receptions on 6 targets for 74 yards, 1 td.
i have no confidence that game was a lightbulb moment for jason garrett but the next week when barkley sprained his ankle it was on a passing route a little more down the field.
He should be. Getting him underneath on drag routes would be the way I would use him. If SB is healthy, he's going to outrun 95% of the LBs in the league.
He's got the hands to catch 70+ passes - easily.
This is the dream, hoping it comes true.
This is true.
whoever holds his rights after the season is tagging him if he plays well. and then probably doing that again the following year. RB 2nd contracts are going in the opposite direction of WR.
I actually do kind of wonder though if teams adjust to that economic reality and start opting to use RBs as a cheaper WR. The Packers kind of do that with Aaron Jones.
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that Allen and Mahomes are generational talents that can make ANY offense look great. They have God-given arm talent to bail out plays that are failing. So those skills are embedded in the success of Daboll's offensive in Buffalo and Kafka's work in KC.
This is true.
So? What's the point? That we should stick with an old-fashioned offense? Do we want Jason Garrett back?
BBI will prefer to let Barkley go.....and sign Other FA?
Why?
I'm looking forward to Daboll modernizing the offense. It's been a long time coming.
I'd just manage expectations until they get their own players in. IMO this project started when Thibodeaux was drafted; anyone here before him doesn't really matter long term.
It'll come. 2022 is going to be rough though.
Right or wrong, that's not the direction this team is moving towards. I could be wrong, but I think we're following the Bills/KC model (for obvious reasons) and not the 49er model.
Tennessee led the league in rush attempts last year with 551. Their running backs had 489 carries - 28.8 per game. That's the league leaders.
No one runs the ball that much anymore. They don't because it's an inefficient way to move the ball.
I hope as the Giants improve their offensive personnel they evolve into throwing the ball 60%+ of the time.
That doesn't mean the running game can't be a weapon. If you spread a defense out and they can't put that extra man in the box, Andrew Thomas and Evan Neal can do some damage for Barkley and Breida. All both need is just a crack.
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In comment 15705610 bw in dc said:
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that Allen and Mahomes are generational talents that can make ANY offense look great. They have God-given arm talent to bail out plays that are failing. So those skills are embedded in the success of Daboll's offensive in Buffalo and Kafka's work in KC.
This is true.
So? What's the point? That we should stick with an old-fashioned offense? Do we want Jason Garrett back?
I think the point is the type of offense might not matter if the QB can't execute.
You don't think otherworldly talents like Allen and Mahomes couldn't successfully run the Garrett Q? Of course they could...
the chiefs ran it less and averaged fewer ypg with more passes to their rbs and shiftier receivers. all of their WRs had low ypc and high catch% because they were catching a ton of short balls.
everyone thinks of hardman and hill as explosive deep threats but they both averaged 11 ypc and 70% catch rates last year. I wouldn't have guessed that with either player.
Both teams had good run/pass balance (granted their run games wne through their QBs a lot.) Both were top 10 in rush attempts.
Buffalo had a pretty vertical pass game. Mahomes in the past has thrown the ball deep well.
Golladay is a pure down field threat, Robinson was used as a down field threat at Kentucky, and that's basically all Slayton can do (if he's on the roster).
It's also the one plus skill Jones has shown in his career.
I'd guess the Giants run a lot of RPO to help clear coverages and make Jones's read easier.
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That puts up 135-150 yards on the ground with 28-32 rb attempts and the QB throwing for 250 with several chunk plays not modern? Give me that type of prehistoric team any day. More so on a QB in years 1-4. Bookend tackles in place with the chance to add more to the interior next draft. Mmm.
Tennessee led the league in rush attempts last year with 551. Their running backs had 489 carries - 28.8 per game. That's the league leaders.
No one runs the ball that much anymore. They don't because it's an inefficient way to move the ball.
I hope as the Giants improve their offensive personnel they evolve into throwing the ball 60%+ of the time.
Cleveland did and Baker won a playoff game. The issue with all the pass guys is very few QB’s have the skills and necessary skill guys to win a championship. God forbid you lose your top WR.
The odds are far greater building the team through the running game with a rookie QB and outstanding OL. This been proven over the last four decades with QBs on rookie contracts. That contract enables a smart team to also build a top defense. For some reason some have a hard time understanding that these type of offensive teams are plenty exciting with impact pass plays.
If you have a elite QB on a second contract it’s a different ballgame. Brady, Eli, Ben, Wilson, etc we’re not elite the first SB.
Tennessee led the league in rush attempts last year with 551. Their running backs had 489 carries - 28.8 per game. That's the league leaders.
No one runs the ball that much anymore. They don't because it's an inefficient way to move the ball.
I hope as the Giants improve their offensive personnel they evolve into throwing the ball 60%+ of the time.
I'd love to replicate that approach. But in order to do that, you need the Secretariat of RBs - a Derrick Henry. Saquon Barkley is the complete opposite of that.
So, let's chuck it around and take advantage of the rules that beg teams to pass.
Both teams had good run/pass balance (granted their run games wne through their QBs a lot.) Both were top 10 in rush attempts.
Buffalo had a pretty vertical pass game. Mahomes in the past has thrown the ball deep well.
Golladay is a pure down field threat, Robinson was used as a down field threat at Kentucky, and that's basically all Slayton can do (if he's on the roster).
It's also the one plus skill Jones has shown in his career.
I'd guess the Giants run a lot of RPO to help clear coverages and make Jones's read easier.
compliment to mix in. look how many passes mahomes threw behind the los last year. i think we are going to see an offense with a lot of short passes to favorable matchups, quick hitters off motion and rpos, jet sweeps - all in combination with a lot of shots downfield.
i would think it puts defenses in a tough position if they think there's a near equal probability any given play could go over the top or have them needing to fill quickly with gap integrity because a small fast player only needs 1 crease.
that's basically a lot of the air raid/spread in a nutshell.
My only guess is Barkley gets 250 carries and they run a lot of RPO to clear out reads for Jones.
Never mind he averaged 2 TDs per game in the only season he played in a modern offense .
But something tells me Taylor will be starting maybe before mid-season. I just seems Taylor is more of a Kafka type QB than Jones.
You don't think otherworldly talents like Allen and Mahomes couldn't successfully run the Garrett Q? Of course they could...
So I think sure they could run Garrets offense..but running the Giants offense in 2021 after players started dropping like flies..each I’d expect would have career worst seasons had they each traded places with Jones. They are each clearly better than Jones and Both would outperform Jones, we’d notch a few more wins..but we’d still miss playoffs imo. Giants roster post injuries was just a disaster last year on O.
I don't think slayton or golladay fit, but i do think golladay could fill some of the TE routes Knox ran as an oversized slot.
slayton i think is a goner unless there's an injury in camp. just too 1 dimensional, inconsistent, and no special teams value.
If they use Toney, Robinson, Barkley, Shep and the TE all in the short passing game, they need someone to be a vertical threat. I don't love Golladay or Slayton, but then who, at the moment?
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I don't think slayton or golladay fit, but i do think golladay could fill some of the TE routes Knox ran as an oversized slot.
slayton i think is a goner unless there's an injury in camp. just too 1 dimensional, inconsistent, and no special teams value.
If they use Toney, Robinson, Barkley, Shep and the TE all in the short passing game, they need someone to be a vertical threat. I don't love Golladay or Slayton, but then who, at the moment?
Robinson and Toney can go vertical and so can Golladay (especially down the seems similar to how buff used Knox).
I think what they want are players who can do both so the defense has to worry about both on any given play.