I think we're about to see a type of offensive system that is at the cutting edge of the NFL.
Whether the QB can handle it is a different subject, but the mix of what Daboll did in Buffalo, Kafka's experience in KC, and the skill set of newly acquired Robinson to go along with Toney, I just get the sense we're going into unchartered for Giants fans.
I also think we're going to see Saquon's pass receptions #s to approach his rookie season numbers (if he stays healthy and/or doesn't get traded in season).
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For the first time it feels like we are staring to see a young base of players. Now we need our QB. I think Jones and Saquon can do better than some here expect. Best case will be that happening and our dealing them for assets we can package to get our QB.
Maybe someone will trade for Barkley in season (I doubt it), but why would anyone trade for Jones at this point...so they can franchise him? Why wouldn't they just wait until free agency to sign him after 2022?
The only GM stupid enough to make such a trade retired - his name is Dave Gettleman.
The time to trade Jones and probably Barkley has passed. They've got no value anymore.
Golladay is being paid like he's one of the NFL's biggest difference makers. And he clearly is not that.
But they can't ditch the contract yet.
best case scenario for the Giants is that Barkley goes off in the first half of the year, and some playoff-bound team overpays for him before the trade deadline. We need another #1 pick.
best case scenario for the Giants is that Barkley goes off in the first half of the year, and some playoff-bound team overpays for him before the trade deadline. We need another #1 pick.
he won't bring back a 1st but he could bring back a 2nd. Or a 3rd and a 4th. The deadline inflates prices because contenders purchasing rentals know they are going to get a comp pick back for the player when he walks in FA.
Ex. the Rams would have qualified for a 3rd round pick if Von Miller wasn't too old for the comp picks rules. I believe they did that with Dante Fowler a few years ago, traded for him at the deadline and then let him walk for a 3rd round comp pick so it ended up being basically a neutral trade.
But say in my ultra-rosy scenario Barkley is on pace for a 2,000-yard type of season again (1,000 combined yards near the mid-way point), some playoff bound team that will have a late 1st might consider him.
I dream, don't I?
But I haven't completely given up on Daniel Jones yet so there's that.
Jones ends up being "the guy."
One 1st rounder on the CB.
Second 1st rounder on the WR.
Presto.
The ones who try to hide what they don't know to begin with - ( New Window )
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so let's find out if he can run it or not.
They only want to find out that he can't run it. They won't admit it, but deep down they are scared shitless of the possibility that Jones plays well. And if Jones and Barkley both play well, Go Terps will have a nervous breakdown (or he'll fake one for sympathy's sake). The ones who try to hide what they don't know to begin with - ( New Window )
You care a lot what I think. That's a one way street.
Improving the trenches also increases the success of the RBs, the QBs, and the WRs. Last year we had WRs who didn't get a lot of separation. With Toney and Robinson, that may no longer be the case.
Now on top of all those improvements, I think most of us believe we improved the talent at coaching as well. It seems to me, that we couldn't have wished for a more massive upgrade to our offense in almost every way possible.
Now defense is a different matter. We got killed in the secondary in the short term. But we also got Thibodeaux to massively upgrade the pass rush. So that's kind of a trade off. Still, let's assume we upgraded the coaching staff on the defensive side of the ball and we should be a bit better on defense.
So, it seems to me we dramatically improved on offense, and should be a bit better on defense. Are we Superbowl bound? Not yet! But as Shoen said, "We will be competitive."
The problem, Terps, is that most Giants fans are rooting for Daniel Jones to succeed. You and bw are rooting for him to fail. You might as well be Cowboys fans.
Now that said, I could see Saquon regain much of his form in this offense, especially with more time since the injury.
But I'm on record as saying I would showcase the crap out of him before the trade deadline and then move him.
Ding, ding, ding, ding - we have a winner!
There are plenty of people calling out the reality of the situation involving DJ, however.
Those are different things.
But he is still very dangerous in space which is is what this offense is designed for.
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Reality can be tough to take sometimes.
The problem, Terps, is that most Giants fans are rooting for Daniel Jones to succeed. You and bw are rooting for him to fail. You might as well be Cowboys fans.
There's a difference between rooting for an outcome and expecting an outcome
Geeked about Robinson too. Very excited to see what happens there.
There were 2 games last season, one against Washington and I forget the other, where Giants had the ball and needed a first down to clinch game.
He ran on first and second and never challenged the defense on 3 rd. Both games the defense couldn’t hold and they lost.
Judge was awful in his conservative approach
The reason they want to allow the QB to "shut off their brain" is when QB's get mentally exhausted from too many reads they get sloppy and make mistakes. I feel like Jones has been a perfect example of this - it always feels like he's overthinking and when he tries to do too much he gets in trouble. I can't tell you the amount of times the defense would show a look, DJ would audible, defense would audible, then no gain up the middle. So much work to get 0 yards.
I think this fits with what Daboll is trying to do with Wan'Dale, KT and Barkley; find the quick mismatch and quickly try to get them the ball in space. This should make the game easier for DJ and hopefully give him a chance to put his best foot forward.
The problem, Terps, is that most Giants fans are rooting for Daniel Jones to succeed. You and bw are rooting for him to fail. You might as well be Cowboys fans.
I am tired of watching Jones play QB - I'll give you that. But I don't root against him. Just another BBI fallacy.
I wish he would live up his 6th pick expectations so we could take advantage of his rookie contract. Unfortunately, he's been a major disappointment so far and is a big reason why the team is bad.
Fortunately for him, Jones gets a 4th bite at the apple to show that he's capable of being a franchise QB. That is awfully generous by the folks at 125 Giants Way, especially in this day and age...
But he is still very dangerous in space which is is what this offense is designed for.
I don’t think Barkley is dangerous in space at all. It ain’t 2018 any more.
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In comment 15705850 Go Terps said:
The problem, Terps, is that most Giants fans are rooting for Daniel Jones to succeed. You and bw are rooting for him to fail. You might as well be Cowboys fans.
I am tired of watching Jones play QB - I'll give you that. But I don't root against him. Just another BBI fallacy.
I wish he would live up his 6th pick expectations so we could take advantage of his rookie contract. Unfortunately, he's been a major disappointment so far and is a big reason why the team is bad.
Fortunately for him, Jones gets a 4th bite at the apple to show that he's capable of being a franchise QB. That is awfully generous by the folks at 125 Giants Way, especially in this day and age...
I wouldn't say generous - I'd say realistic. If you don't like the QB's in the 2022 draft, which they clearly didn't by passing on them in the 3rd, then what are your other options? They don't have a roster on the cusp of contention so no reason to be a part of the Wilson, Watson, etc. sweepstakes. Mayfield hasn't proven much more than DJ and costs far more in 2022. Sure you could have tried to sign Mariotta or Trubisky, but neither has proven to be any better than DJ.
They hope that the problem has been less DJ driven and more about the coaching/supporting cast. The team isn't likely to be competitive in 2022 and the goal is to build for 2023+, so it only makes sense to see what they have in DJ in an innovative offense that caters to his strengths.
Of course he can be a major factor in the passing game. He actually was a major factor in the passing game in 18 and 19.
Barkley is insanely underrated around here. Again people, the guy was miserably injured virtually all of 2022--playing on a majorly repaired knee and then playing on a brutal ankle sprain.
Odds are Barkley plays closer to 2018-19 levels this coming season. He's in shape, 2 years removed from the knee and one year removed from the ankle. If he stays healthy, something every player going has to be held to, he's going to dominate this season. I'd bet on it.
You care a lot what I think. That's a one way street.
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You care a lot what I think. That's a one way street.
It's a zero way street. It's possible to find someone incredibly annoying without caring a lick about what they think. In fact, that's usually the case, don't you think?
don't bring me down - ( New Window )
There are plenty of people calling out the reality of the situation involving DJ, however.
Those are different things.
There's a portion of fans who feel like you're a "bad fan" if a player who hasn't won anything and has barely played well over 3 years doesn't get your pom poms waving.
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on here are rooting for DJ to fail.
There are plenty of people calling out the reality of the situation involving DJ, however.
Those are different things.
There's a portion of fans who feel like you're a "bad fan" if a player who hasn't won anything and has barely played well over 3 years doesn't get your pom poms waving.
Poor Phil Simms.
exactly 2 months later they were celebrating in the canyon of heroes.
that's how quickly things can change - and had they not switched from hufnagel to gillbride it would not have happened.
I am tired of watching Jones play QB - I'll give you that. But I don't root against him. Just another BBI fallacy.
I wish he would live up his 6th pick expectations so we could take advantage of his rookie contract. Unfortunately, he's been a major disappointment so far and is a big reason why the team is bad.
Fortunately for him, Jones gets a 4th bite at the apple to show that he's capable of being a franchise QB. That is awfully generous by the folks at 125 Giants Way, especially in this day and age...
I wouldn't say generous - I'd say realistic. If you don't like the QB's in the 2022 draft, which they clearly didn't by passing on them in the 3rd, then what are your other options? They don't have a roster on the cusp of contention so no reason to be a part of the Wilson, Watson, etc. sweepstakes. Mayfield hasn't proven much more than DJ and costs far more in 2022. Sure you could have tried to sign Mariotta or Trubisky, but neither has proven to be any better than DJ.
They hope that the problem has been less DJ driven and more about the coaching/supporting cast. The team isn't likely to be competitive in 2022 and the goal is to build for 2023+, so it only makes sense to see what they have in DJ in an innovative offense that caters to his strengths.
We've been over a lot of real estate you mentioned.
I'll just say may want to revisit your comments on Trubisky. He's been more productive than Jones. And he was affordable. Unfortunately, Trubisky would have wanted to compete for the starting position, and that seemingly went against the interests of 125 Giants Way.
My stance on Jones overlaps with Terps's view - more reps for Jones going forward just wastes time to evaluate someone else. Which is what we should be doing in 2022 instead of "All In on Jones", Part 2.
Jones has been non-competitive.
This was also prior to the rookie wage scale which has made a rookie contract QB a massive advantage. There wasn't going to be a massive advantage to moving on from Eli. Unless Jones plays near an MVP level in 2022 paying him is an absurdity.
The Eli and Simms comparisons are poorly thought out and usually come from our dimmest posters.
Jones has been non-competitive.
This was also prior to the rookie wage scale which has made a rookie contract QB a massive advantage. There wasn't going to be a massive advantage to moving on from Eli. Unless Jones plays near an MVP level in 2022 paying him is an absurdity.
The Eli and Simms comparisons are poorly thought out and usually come from our dimmest posters.
do you remember the 2005 and 2006 postseasons? combined in his first 2 playoff games he had 26 completions, under 60% as he was in his first 3 full seasons, under 280 yards, 4 turnovers, and only scored 20 points. Those were years 2 and 3 of his career. i was at the carolina game and i can tell you a lot of people gave up that day.
No one is saying Eli was great. He wasn't. But he was competitive.
Competitive is orders of magnitude beyond what Jones has been. Our scale has gotten all out of whack. It's now a big deal if we score 20 points in a game.
The situations are just not comparable.
Also not all good or even great players play well in their first ever playoffs appearances. It's a thing that people know about but choose to forget when it's convenient. Fans were more eager to be mad that they lost than deal with reality.
Eli had good offensive lines from basically 2005 on.
Tiki was setting franchise records and literally carried them into both of those playoffs with 200+ yards in both week 17's.
the defenses in those years weren't exceptional but they had Osi/Strahan and were generally decent whereas the 2019 defense was the worst nyg defense in the SB era.
the situations aren't exactly comparable.
Also not all good or even great players play well in their first ever playoffs appearances. It's a thing that people know about but choose to forget when it's convenient. Fans were more eager to be mad that they lost than deal with reality.
TTH honest question for you, in year 4 after throwing 2 touchdowns to Darren Sharper and 4 ints total, what % of the fanbase do you estimate was behind Eli?
What would be saying if this were all playing out in Philly or Dallas?
We'd be incredulous that the quarterback got another scholarship year.
We can be explosive.
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But I was 18 years old back then and even I knew that Giants team in 05 limped into the playoffs with big injuries.
Also not all good or even great players play well in their first ever playoffs appearances. It's a thing that people know about but choose to forget when it's convenient. Fans were more eager to be mad that they lost than deal with reality.
TTH honest question for you, in year 4 after throwing 2 touchdowns to Darren Sharper and 4 ints total, what % of the fanbase do you estimate was behind Eli?
The guy that threw those picks had performed FAR better than Jones to that point.
What would be saying if this were all playing out in Philly or Dallas?
We'd be incredulous that the quarterback got another scholarship year.
it is playing out in Philly, Hurts sucks. They rightfully keeping draft capital in the future.
Dak didn't break out in Dallas until year 4 - and most of us (myself included) were laughing/begging them to tag him/extend him when the rumors came out that he was asking for 30m/year. Now he's a 40m QB I'd take in a heartbeat.
The NFL isn't as predictable as you like to pretend it is.
His QBRs in years 4 and 5 were 72 and 73.
So, Prescott had more than established himself as a bonafide top ten QB by YR4.
The guy that threw those picks had performed FAR better than Jones to that point.
by only 2 metrics - health and record - both of which are very important but neither of which is totally in any 1 player's control.
despite better teams and coaches around him
Eli threw more interceptions at a higher rate,
passed for fewer yards per game,
on a lower yards per attempt,
on a lower completion percentage,
for a much lower QB rating.
Eli didn't post a single season QB rating over 77 until his 5th season.
The only person who fans/media tried to run out of town by 2006 faster than Eli was Coughlin.
That's like saying 2019 Jones was better than 1986 Phil Simms.
His QBRs in years 4 and 5 were 72 and 73.
So, Prescott had more than established himself as a bonafide top ten QB by YR4.
wrong. he was considered an efficient game manager in a conservative Dallas offense with the OL and Zeke doing most of the heavy lifting.
he hadn't passed for more than 3800 yards in a season.
he hadn't thrown for more than 23 tds in a season.
his YPG were basically exactly where Jones' are for his career.
pre-Kellen Moore Dak was not a top 10 QB. See the article below from 2019. his first game under Kellen Moore in 2019 was when he lit up Bettcher's defense for like 4 touchdowns and 400 yards and from that point forward everything was different.
Feb 19, 2019
I promised to get to a very important topic early in the offseason but then pushed it off for a few weeks. Honestly, how much more can be said about the question of a Dak Prescott contract extension?
Evidently, plenty.
With each passing week, the noise around the Cowboys QB entering his fourth year intensifies. Despite thinking that this team has more pressing matters — DeMarcus Lawrence’s free agency comes to mind — perhaps we are deluding ourselves. There is no bigger issue than the biggest contract in franchise history.
Yes, there are still loyal and lifelong Cowboys fans who still question whether Prescott is actually a good quarterback at all. I think it is probably a waste of time at this point to try to convince them any longer when the guy has made 51 NFL starts while upholding a high standard. If they are not sure, they aren’t going to be swayed.
and by the way Jerry Jones and the Dallas' FO agreed because they didn't extend him at the $30m AAV suggested in this article, they continued to tag him through 2020, and ultimately ended up extending him for a lot more after he proved he's a franchise QB.
The largest contract quandary in Cowboys history: How does Dallas approach a Dak Prescott extension? - ( New Window )
That's like saying 2019 Jones was better than 1986 Phil Simms.
Jones played in an offense from before Eli's era the last couple years with worse players so it's actually not that much of an apples to oranges comparison. certainly not as apples to oranges as the coaching staff/offensive line differences the 2 had.
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But I was 18 years old back then and even I knew that Giants team in 05 limped into the playoffs with big injuries.
Also not all good or even great players play well in their first ever playoffs appearances. It's a thing that people know about but choose to forget when it's convenient. Fans were more eager to be mad that they lost than deal with reality.
TTH honest question for you, in year 4 after throwing 2 touchdowns to Darren Sharper and 4 ints total, what % of the fanbase do you estimate was behind Eli?
That's a different context from year 2 playoffs to year 4.
And I get why fans would have been mad year 4. Few will remember this but Coughlin himself told the story of Eli being emotional about his performance and wanting to be better. He wasn't living up to his potential.
The difference is Eli was a consensus top 5 pick with an illustrious college career. Much was expected and he wasn't living up to it with enough consistency to win with.
Jones hasn't accomplished anything at any level to believe he's secretly an NFL qb you can win with.
He wasn't a particularly good college QB so what is there to hang your hat on? The hope now is Daboll can prop him up like McVay did for Goff with scheme and surrounding talent.
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In comment 15706261 bw in dc said:
I am tired of watching Jones play QB - I'll give you that. But I don't root against him. Just another BBI fallacy.
I wish he would live up his 6th pick expectations so we could take advantage of his rookie contract. Unfortunately, he's been a major disappointment so far and is a big reason why the team is bad.
Fortunately for him, Jones gets a 4th bite at the apple to show that he's capable of being a franchise QB. That is awfully generous by the folks at 125 Giants Way, especially in this day and age...
I wouldn't say generous - I'd say realistic. If you don't like the QB's in the 2022 draft, which they clearly didn't by passing on them in the 3rd, then what are your other options? They don't have a roster on the cusp of contention so no reason to be a part of the Wilson, Watson, etc. sweepstakes. Mayfield hasn't proven much more than DJ and costs far more in 2022. Sure you could have tried to sign Mariotta or Trubisky, but neither has proven to be any better than DJ.
They hope that the problem has been less DJ driven and more about the coaching/supporting cast. The team isn't likely to be competitive in 2022 and the goal is to build for 2023+, so it only makes sense to see what they have in DJ in an innovative offense that caters to his strengths.
We've been over a lot of real estate you mentioned.
I'll just say may want to revisit your comments on Trubisky. He's been more productive than Jones. And he was affordable. Unfortunately, Trubisky would have wanted to compete for the starting position, and that seemingly went against the interests of 125 Giants Way.
My stance on Jones overlaps with Terps's view - more reps for Jones going forward just wastes time to evaluate someone else. Which is what we should be doing in 2022 instead of "All In on Jones", Part 2.
Nobody is "all in" on Jones - he's just the best option for 2022 to evaluate if you want him to be your starter long term. The main disagreement here is that the anti-Jones crowd thinks they've seen enough to know he's a bust; the majority of fans are in the middle ground where they think there's less than a 50% chance he's here in 2023, but they have seen enough bright spots to earn him another chance in a better offensive scheme with a better OL.
I think the Trubisky/Jones debate is one where they basically have been the same player, however Trubisky has played on much better teams. Yes his contract is affordable, but the Giants are counting pennies and adding Mitch is still roughly double what you are paying Taylor.
Why is that important? Because people keep hanging in to the hope that Jones will “emerge” in his 4th pro year. But a late blooming QB hasnt emerged in his 4th season in recent pro history (since the loosening of the coverage rules, new CBA). There’s literally no precedent for it happening. Prescott certainly doesn’t support the hope.