I was listening to this podcast during a late lunch hour.
I have a question and also want to remark on something Schoen brought up regarding Daniel Jones and evaluating pro QB's in general.
So my question is, Schoen said again, there were 6 players he liked at the top of the draft. Earlier he was known for saying 7 players, guaranteed to get 2 of them, sleep well at night...
One of those prospects then fell off the list. But why would he then start saying "Six" ? Let's say the whole group were picked 1 through 6. Now he's picking at 7. No way he's in an Eli Apple or Cedric Jones situation. He's got a 7th prospect planned. They know who they are picking in that case.
So really, it's still 7, just not the original 7.
Saying "Six" makes it sound like he is unprepared or gambling a little, so why not keep saying "7", why change the message?
Here's the DJ thing...
Banks asked him about evaluating QB's that you need to pay, what goes into that, how do you do it?
What Banks meant was, when you are evaluating whether any QB is worth a contract, when that QB is "outside" of your program - like in this case, the tape on DJ was from the previous program with former staff.
JS says that if you are looking at tape on a QB in that situation, there is a lot that you don't know. An interception was because the receiver ran short and the QB threw, correctly, deeper. Or because the receiver ran the wrong route. Anything where 11 guys are not on the same page.
Negative plays may not be on the QB, "not everyone understands the why".
And because of the competitive nature between programs and staff you can't ask for an explanation.
Therefore with that lack of knowledge of context, you can't lay too much criticism on the QB.
Across the interview, what he is basically saying is, they can only evaluate DJ based on this season, where they know what was expected from him vs what occurred.
Then if they want to keep him, they can extend him or franchise him.
Papa notes that would be a great problem to have, a strong performance from DJ and now you have to figure out how he gets paid.
They didn't ask or discuss what the other direction would look like which was kind of disappointing.
Bonus remark - Schoen talked about the Wan'dale pick in terms of depth due to injury history of Toney and Shep as well as expiring contracts, "what will the WR room look like 12 months from now". Good man! 2nd round depth won't go over well, but take the long view. 12 months and more...
Schoen on - (
New Window )
Thibs got a 'C' in choir one year because the concert was on a Friday night during football season. You know what choice Thibs made... he played in the game. Walked away from an 'A' and took the 'C'.
Joe really liked relating that story.
Banks thinks Thibs is genuine and that "football is very important to him. Being good at football is very important to him."
Joe also relates that Thibs is a draftnick and during one private call "put on his Mel Kiper hat and was peppering me with questions about guys in the draft"
They praised his curious mind and high competativeness.
He sounded discouraged about it.
Good point. He didn't say that but maybe so. If no tackle, no top edge, no sauce, I would have taken the top WR, myself.
What I found most odd was when they almost traded back from 5 and said it’s ok, they have three players left they like. Obviously two were Neal and Thibbs.
Who was the third?
If it’s Ickey - that means Giants we’re willing to take two OL in top 10?
Or it isn’t Ickey? And got their top OL in Neal?
What I found most odd was when they almost traded back from 5 and said it’s ok, they have three players left they like. Obviously two were Neal and Thibbs.
Who was the third?
If it’s Ickey - that means Giants we’re willing to take two OL in top 10?
Or it isn’t Ickey? And got their top OL in Neal?
Schoen basically confirmed he had Ickey and Neal neck and neck during his post-draft presser.
They praised his curious mind and high competativeness.
I really like the fact that he's into the draft process as a whole and knows about other players.
I'm pretty sure this was the plan. Transcript:
Reading the tea leaves here:
1. Giants wanted 7 guys but only came up with 6. I think Schoen specifically said something like "I'll sleep well if there are 7 guys I like." He only found 6 though, so he came up with a contingency plan if all 6 went. Smart.
2. I assume that the Giants had *someone* slotted as their best available guy if their 6 had gone in the top 6 and everyone backed out of trades. They probably would have made the pick unhappily, but you just follow your board at that point.
3. Four of the six seem obvious: Thibodeaux and Neal b/c they picked them, Ekwonu based on Schoen's comments, and Gardner based on ALL of the pre-draft news and post-draft rumors. So then one of Hutch, Stingley, or Walker was not in the 6. I would guess Stingley based on the injury history, but I can make cases for any of those guys not being in the group.
Clearly 1 guy was taken in the top 4 that they didnt like for one reason or another. I assume that Stingley would be a guy to fall out due to injury concerns but it could have been Walker or Sauce. My 2nd option would be Walker because I heard a few interviews with Smelk kind of knocking Walker. Maybe he knew more than he was letting on.
As for DJ, Schoen is going to say all of the right things. The only real option we had this season was keeping DJ and rolling the dice especially since it seems many teams didnt like the QB class. Cutting him and eating that salary plus signing another starting caliber guy would have put the cap in even more stress than it already is. He's actually in a very good spot with DJ, if DJ fails he can easily replace him, if he succeeds, this regime is responsible for turning him around.
I am in the pro DJ camp and not sure why anyone at this point wants him to fail, he fails the team fails and the rebuild gets extended even more years with a search for a QB. He is successful this team is on a great track to get back in the hunt.
My hypothetical cases against:
- Stingley: injury history, performance declines off of 2019 peak
- Walker: pressure rate and other production statistics just not great
- Hutch: scheme fit or not meeting threshold arm length target.
If I were a betting man I'd say it was Stingley, with Hutch the least likely... but hard to know.
New York Giants GM Joe Schoen on the 2022 NFL Draft Class with Bob Papa and Carl Banks - ( New Window )
Shoen seems to be taking an optimistic but realistic view. Regarding Wan’Dale he said Dabes had guys like that before, they liked his speed, versatility, and production. He ALSO says when asked he’s looking at the WR room in a couple of years and they got guys hitting FA, coming off injury, so he’s thinking that way too.
In regards to the trade down, he’s explicitly thinking of building the lower half of the roster with guys now who might develop out of a deep draft. Said they had FAs they went after but got priced out of, so you have to build another way.
About the UDFAs, he says “don’t just get me camp guys, get me guys that can really compete for a spot.” He wants real competition.
Shoen seems to be taking an optimistic but realistic view. Regarding Wan’Dale he said Dabes had guys like that before, they liked his speed, versatility, and production. He ALSO says when asked he’s looking at the WR room in a couple of years and they got guys hitting FA, coming off injury, so he’s thinking that way too.
In regards to the trade down, he’s explicitly thinking of building the lower half of the roster with guys now who might develop out of a deep draft. Said they had FAs they went after but got priced out of, so you have to build another way.
About the UDFAs, he says “don’t just get me camp guys, get me guys that can really compete for a spot.” He wants real competition.
If you watch the video (not just listen to the audio), Schoen has a big grin on his face when discussing Robinson.
Quote:
And a terrific interview.
Shoen seems to be taking an optimistic but realistic view. Regarding Wan’Dale he said Dabes had guys like that before, they liked his speed, versatility, and production. He ALSO says when asked he’s looking at the WR room in a couple of years and they got guys hitting FA, coming off injury, so he’s thinking that way too.
In regards to the trade down, he’s explicitly thinking of building the lower half of the roster with guys now who might develop out of a deep draft. Said they had FAs they went after but got priced out of, so you have to build another way.
About the UDFAs, he says “don’t just get me camp guys, get me guys that can really compete for a spot.” He wants real competition.
If you watch the video (not just listen to the audio), Schoen has a big grin on his face when discussing Robinson.
WR is basically a position you need to spend a top 4 rd pick on every year.
you've got to have a really good grade on a player to go outside of DB, OL, DL/EDGE, WR with the picks in the top 150. Those are the biggest position groups on the team by size and most expensive to find (other than QB).
agree with this too. Schoen's candor and willingness to answer with some real information is refreshing. The talk about the durability score and Josh Allen's INTs that weren't his fault were interesting too.
I'm sure you are right and likely I misremember that part, I'll go back and hear it again. I thought I recalled that Joe himself mentioned their injury history and need for WR depth in regards to the pick. But I wasn't meaning to imply that was the main reason for the pick.
They were always going to get one of them at #5 because he said they had no discussions with anyone for #5 being traded.
If 5 of the 6 were gone(they already got one) then they had the trade in place to move back, granted the teams interested in moving up still would have had the player they were after still on the board. I suspect it was for one of the WRs. And I do suspect they would have taken Wilson had all of their 6 favs been already taken and the trades fell through.
Some of us have been saying this for the last year or more but not nearly as eloquent or digestible as Schoen put it. Some of those posters were ridiculed for this take. I wonder if these same people will scoff at this take.
QBs are NOT like any other position in pro sports. They literally can and will make the smartest talent evaluators ever look like fucking fools.
That said, I would bet that Schoen and Daboll, to a man, believe that despite the uncertainty with the QB, jones has a lot of work to do. HE has a lot of impressing to do.
They were always going to get one of them at #5 because he said they had no discussions with anyone for #5 being traded.
If 5 of the 6 were gone(they already got one) then they had the trade in place to move back, granted the teams interested in moving up still would have had the player they were after still on the board. I suspect it was for one of the WRs. And I do suspect they would have taken Wilson had all of their 6 favs been already taken and the trades fell through.
So one of the top four was not in the Giants top 6. I think it was Stingley due to his prior history of injuries. Players who are not durable in college tend not to be durable in the pros. Doubt it was Hutch, Walker, or Sauce.
Listen to what he said about Right Tackles. "Game has changed. RT vs LT is older thinking. RT has to be able to pass protect a lot."
The Giants are looking at high school transcripts and interviewing teachers to learn about these guys and we cry about the picks like we have a clue about anything. Lmao.
agree - very impressive and informative
The Giants are looking at high school transcripts and interviewing teachers to learn about these guys and we cry about the picks like we have a clue about anything. Lmao.
lol.... I no Rite?
That would be great. This is the type of player they should be targeting.
Quote:
if the 6 guys were gone, to trade out of 7?////////
I'm pretty sure this was the plan. Transcript:
Quote:
JOE SCHOEN: We had probably three teams that had talked about potentially moving up, and it was more to seven -- there weren't a lot of calls -- actually, there weren't any calls on anybody coming up to five. We had some conversations in a scenario where it was really six guys we coveted, and if one of them weren't there, if all six went, then we would have probably considered moving back. But any scenario where two of the six guys we liked were there, we were going to stay. That would have been really the only chance we would have moved back in that scenario... You know, the two trades I had in place, it was like, hey let's prepare, so if we're on the clock, it's already done, no haggling. With the two teams I talked to, it was fair. We both agreed it was fair. One of the teams actually called me and said, hey, we are out because a certain position was depleted that they were going to come up for.
D HOS, my take is the coveted 7 did not become 6. The way I read the transcript (tnks RH Peel] is that Schoen and Dabs were game planning the draft and they were plotting different scenarios (he uses the term three times. GM and HC were game planning what they would do in worst case. Shocking that team's two prior GMs were incapable of this.
Joe Schoen so far seems to be exactly what the Giants needed and exactly as advertised.
I'll ask this every time I listen to a Papa Banks podcast. Who does Bob Papa think is listening to these? He felt is was necessary to say fans and media don't know that RT needs to pass block and that pass rushers come from everywhere now? Seriously? Maybe he thinks Dave Gettleman is listening? He didn't seem to know that.
As far as the Daniel Jones stuff goes Schoen and dabble are going to give him 2022 to show that if the coaching staff has a competitive 2022 scheme with a decent OL and decent WRs and RBs he can play at a high enough level to earn a 2nd contract. I hope he does. The two best Giants QBs of my lifetime had many many detractors at the same points of their careers. Let's hope history repeats itself.
He could've gotten on BBI and asked. Plenty of people here who KNOW.