for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

The Giants backfield just does not inspire confidence

gidiefor : Mod : 5/13/2022 4:51 pm
Just like last years oline went to hell in a hand basket 🧺 I have visions of no matter how many yes the other team needs on third down, this backfield will let them get it.

Jackson. Yet to play a entire season through
The rest of the CBs- yet to play an entire season and mostly less than a year in the league- all back- pretty much back benchers or rookies

McKinney good, Love heady but never a fully invested starter
The rest of the SSs yet to play an entire season and mostly pretty much back benchers or rookies

Seems like the recipe for the number1 draft pick right there

I just don’t see how anyone can be optimistic that this team will be in any games unless we get into a passing match. I mean we will be playing against pro QBs all season
This is what happens when you rebuild  
ElitoCanton : 5/13/2022 4:57 pm : link
I will say that Jackson was very good last year and Robinson showed some good signs. Love is a solid safety and McKinney is on the verge of greatness. But it isn't gonna come fully together this year. This is a clean up year. Good news is it will put them in the position to draft an elite QB and they'll have have a lot of space to add pieces in the secondary.
EH  
BleedBlue : 5/13/2022 4:58 pm : link
I think youre overstating the defense problem a little. Typically in Wink's system its pressure up front vs great coverage on backend. I think the giants expect to get home a bunch with ojulari, williams and thibs.

As for the secondary. jackson will be playing more press man which much better suits him vs soft zones of last season. Sure we may have a soft spot at the other CB position at least until late cuts, but overall its not an AWFUL group but it will rely on some youngsters. Is it the strong point of the team, no. but recipe for first pick overall, also no IMO
agreed - i think they are going to add some vets after the minicamps  
Eric on Li : 5/13/2022 5:00 pm : link
Chuck Clark would make a ton of sense if he forces his way out of BAL - which seems in process. He was Wink's green dot and he played everywhere in his scheme. The Ravens beat writer for the athletic actually said it wouldn't surprise him to see him dealt for Slayton which ive been hoping for since the rumors came out they were shopping him at the draft. Shout out to BIGBLUE FAN1321 who i promise isn't me.

Quote:
BIGBLUE FAN1321 @BigBlue_Fan1321
21h
@jeffzrebiec could u see a giants ravens trade . Darius slayton for chuck Clark maybe swap mid rd picks to

Jeff Zrebiec
@jeffzrebiec
Replying to @BigBlue_Fan1321
Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me at all. I know Giants don't have much desire to take on money, but Clark has team-friendly deal and they'd be shedding money w/Slayton


I also think they'll sign an outside corner from UFA looking for a chance to start for a VSB like Kevin King. Daboll was asked about a veteran cb today and his answer certainly didn't make it seem like it was off the table.

Wink has got to be staring daggers when he looks at the depth chart right now. Remember he's still trying to get himself a lead job. I don't he was looking at whatever job he took as a multi-year project. Post tryouts and rookie camp I think we will see some moves. Any Clark deal may happen in June to save BAL a little money on the cap but the writing will be on the wall when their OTA's begin May 24th if he's not participating.
The other backfield  
Jimmy Googs : 5/13/2022 5:01 pm : link
is actually worse...
Great coverage.  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/13/2022 5:03 pm : link
Adore Jackson may be good but if he misses games that’s a whole lot of nothing back there. When he’s in games just throw it to the other back

2 step drops. I don’t care how fast Kayvon is the ball is out

This backfield couldn’t stop anyone on third down last year and they are minus two of their best players now
You know what I don’t really believe  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/13/2022 5:08 pm : link
you cant win with a rag tag backfield. You’re just dreaming if you think some magic udfa or 3rd or 4th rounder or later with less than a year of development is going to bolster this
And you were always dreaming  
ElitoCanton : 5/13/2022 5:13 pm : link
if you thought the goal was to actually be competitive this year. This year is just about laying the foundation to be competitive in the long term.
I'll lose with those guys  
Woodstock : 5/13/2022 5:17 pm : link
Over losing with cap killers. Who knows. Maybe we'll find a diamond
Its a rebuild... accept it  
blueblood : 5/13/2022 5:19 pm : link
you arent fixing everything wrong with this team in ONE year.
What can we do?  
Keaton028 : 5/13/2022 5:19 pm : link
We are rebuilding, purging the old roster, with not much money to beef up every position. We had a limited number of draft picks, yet still invested a few in the defensive backfield. What more can they do besides wait for cuts?

Yes we are probably going to be an inferior football team in 2022. If you are expecting playoffs you’ll probably be disappointed. Butthere is still much to be excited about. Thibedeaux, Neal, Andrew Thomas, McKinney, Toney, Wan’Dale, Ojulari, Flott… there are a ton of young guys who it will be interesting and exciting watching develop. It’s not a lost season even if they aren’t ready to compete for the division. Daboll and Schoen are giving this team a direction and it’s going to take a couple seasons to implement.
Its paper thin and inexperienced  
Rudy5757 : 5/13/2022 5:24 pm : link
I assume we will be picking up a vet corner and a vet safety as soon as they realize there is no money anywhere for them and this is a good opportunity to get their career back on track with a 1 year deal.

It doesnt look good on paper right now.
I think they’re in ok shape considering  
BillT : 5/13/2022 5:26 pm : link
I never thought CB was a priority for this year and having McKinney and Jackson returning with Love and probably Robinson as the other two starters isn’t terrible. I thought Holmes had a decent 2nd year and we added Flott. In a complete rebuild there are going to be units that aren’t yet top notch. I think it’s an ok start. Some of DG’s guys there may pay some dividends. Better than what he left on other places.
Round 2  
Hilary : 5/13/2022 5:31 pm : link
The Giants were positioned at 36 to draft a highly rated corner. They traded down. They thought this through. They like Cordale Flott. . Time will tell.
We all knew we could not address all the team needs this year.  
Giant John : 5/13/2022 5:40 pm : link
Next year is a different story. Don’t have high expectations and you won’t be disappointed. I’m still hoping we open some eyes. Hopefully cowgirls, eagirls and commander girls see storm clouds on the horizon.
What's  
AcidTest : 5/13/2022 5:41 pm : link
really frustrating is that our secondary doesn't inspire confidence despite all the FA and draft resources we have spent on that position group the last few years.

Of course no position group inspires confidence, including our RBs, WRs, and TEs.
It's not going to be fixed in one draft.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/13/2022 6:05 pm : link
It's not.
can't disagree with you  
jvm52106 : 5/13/2022 6:13 pm : link
more and disagree with Eric in Li (who still wants Bradberry here).. The Giants backfield is definitely no worse than last year.

Logan Ryan, was a leader and coach on the field but his play was not equal to the $ being paid and would be another year older. On a solid go for it now team he makes sense, here with this rebuild he provides nothing to the W/L column and eats up $.

Bradberry is severely overrated on this board. he is another win now player but not a rebuild player. We had to get younger and we did.

One thing forgotten in all this talk is that multiple areas can have an effect on play and results in other areas. The pass rush the Gmen should be able to unleash, will most definitely help the secondary. Will it be a sure fire fix, a sure fire bond, maybe not but, it will certainly be a band aid more often than what we had in the previous few years.

Martinez back on the field also helps as it allows us to have a "coach" on the field, a guy who will make sure people are where they need to be. That will help the LB's who can assist with coverage issues as well.

We have a LOT of youth to work with and some of these folks may well surprise- ala Jackson and Guyton of 1989 ( 3rd and 8th rd safety selections who started as rookies).

The funny thing about last year, we had a clown show in the FO and Coaching staff and a revolving door of turnstiles on the Oline and yet we managed to stay in games and look to be improving until we lost our QB. A QB whose play was average at best.

The Def backfield has a number of good players and a number of young players. let's see how the Dline, the Edge and the LB's develop, which will play a huge role in helping our secondary!
I don't know...  
bw in dc : 5/13/2022 6:17 pm : link
what we are going to look like the secondary, but I am eager to see the young guys play under Martindale. I hope he turn them loose and gets them to play with an edge and aggressive.
RE: And you were always dreaming  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/13/2022 6:18 pm : link
In comment 15707906 ElitoCanton said:
Quote:
if you thought the goal was to actually be competitive this year. This year is just about laying the foundation to be competitive in the long term.


Honestly, I think there's a percentage of the fanbase that really thinks this team was just an OL and coaching away from 'going for it'. They're ready to be optimistic, that's why there was such a fuss about getting rid of Bradberry.
RE: I think they’re in ok shape considering  
HopePhil and Optimistic : 5/13/2022 6:27 pm : link
In comment 15707923 BillT said:
Quote:
I never thought CB was a priority for this year and having McKinney and Jackson returning with Love and probably Robinson as the other two starters isn’t terrible. I thought Holmes had a decent 2nd year and we added Flott. In a complete rebuild there are going to be units that aren’t yet top notch. I think it’s an ok start. Some of DG’s guys there may pay some dividends. Better than what he left on other places.


I agree. Those six plus Belton and maybe a udfa like Corker sticks and that’s 8 of your 10 roster spots locked up with only Jackson on a second contract. I wouldn’t add a veteran that would take valuable snaps away from the young guys that need them. They are the future, along with a couple of adds next year.

Start to build continuity and familiarity with the system. By next year I can see Jackson, Robinson, Flott with McKinnry and Belton as our most common nickel package really emerge. It sure would be nice to develop our players and see them reach their potential!
We have drafted 3 cbs in either rd 3 or 4 last 3 yrs  
Payasdaddy : 5/13/2022 6:37 pm : link
Also xman at safety. When your team stinks, u play the hound guys
The guys we drafted have some talent. Sy really like Robinson last yr in draft.
Holmes isn’t horrible as a 5/6th db
Flott has promise.
I am glad we grab thibs over cb. We can’t solve it all in 1 yr.
I also think on cut down day, we should be able to get vet cb who is decent as insurance. Picking high on waiver wire helps.
Eh, I don't know.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/13/2022 6:40 pm : link
Love is a solid pro. I liked what I saw of Robinson last fall.
You know we are in  
Dave on the UWS : 5/13/2022 6:51 pm : link
uncharted territory when BW has a more positive post than Gidi ( whose patience apparently lasted all of 1 rookie practice).
RE: can't disagree with you  
Eric on Li : 5/13/2022 8:00 pm : link
In comment 15707946 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
more and disagree with Eric in Li (who still wants Bradberry here).. The Giants backfield is definitely no worse than last year.

Logan Ryan, was a leader and coach on the field but his play was not equal to the $ being paid and would be another year older. On a solid go for it now team he makes sense, here with this rebuild he provides nothing to the W/L column and eats up $.

Bradberry is severely overrated on this board. he is another win now player but not a rebuild player. We had to get younger and we did.

One thing forgotten in all this talk is that multiple areas can have an effect on play and results in other areas. The pass rush the Gmen should be able to unleash, will most definitely help the secondary. Will it be a sure fire fix, a sure fire bond, maybe not but, it will certainly be a band aid more often than what we had in the previous few years.

Martinez back on the field also helps as it allows us to have a "coach" on the field, a guy who will make sure people are where they need to be. That will help the LB's who can assist with coverage issues as well.

We have a LOT of youth to work with and some of these folks may well surprise- ala Jackson and Guyton of 1989 ( 3rd and 8th rd safety selections who started as rookies).

The funny thing about last year, we had a clown show in the FO and Coaching staff and a revolving door of turnstiles on the Oline and yet we managed to stay in games and look to be improving until we lost our QB. A QB whose play was average at best.

The Def backfield has a number of good players and a number of young players. let's see how the Dline, the Edge and the LB's develop, which will play a huge role in helping our secondary!


weird post. I'd have had Bradberry back if there was a compromise that worked with the contract but never on his existing deal. plan a was always trade, plan b was renegotiate (which wasn't happening once that failed with other teams), and plan c was cut.

re the bold from your post i try to be optimistic but the number of good players in the def backfield is 2 -- and both of them missed the majority of 2020 due to injury.

every team has young players. they had a number of young players in 2019 and that ended up the worst nyg defense in the super bowl era. the offensive line had a bunch of young players heading into last year, how'd that work out? sometimes rolling with young guys works outs but i see no downside to hedging with some experienced depth signings just like they've done on the OL this year.
On the flip side  
Breeze_94 : 5/13/2022 8:11 pm : link
Glass half full perspective

Jackson- proven starter, 1st round athlete, only 26, played well in 21’

Robinson- ideal scheme fit, looked good when he played last year, great athlete with length and physical play style, ready to make the leap in year 2

Flott- 3rd round pick, oozing potential, incredible movement skills, ascending at age 20, some say he could’ve been a top 50 pick had he stayed one more year at LSU

Holmes- solid as a rookie, was coming around late last year before injury

Love- Jack of all trades, has always been a solid player when asked to play- no matter where he’s asked to line up

McKinney- has the makings of an all pro at FS. Outstanding in his first full season..only 23 years old too

Belton- 4th round pick, all big 10 player with ball production, heady player, versatile with size and decent speed

Corker- should have been drafted, good depth guy
It’s the defensive backfield. Sheesh.  
RDJR : 5/13/2022 8:16 pm : link
The backfield refers to the offensive backfield. We’ve been football fans how long?
Secondary? Back End? Defensive Backfield?  
Trainmaster : 5/13/2022 8:22 pm : link
Backfield by itself is halfbacks and fullbacks IMHO

Now get off my lawn! :-)

Bradberry being cut is a loss. But I’m OK with Jackson, Robinson, Holmes, Flott, McKinney & Love.

No,  
darren in pdx : 5/13/2022 8:22 pm : link
but they're in a full-on rebuild in an offseason where they were working with an extremely limited salary cap. They had to let go of their best Cornerback because of it. Not to be mention how bad the roster is (was?) to begin with. It was an impossible task to expect this roster to be turned around in one offseason. Realistically it's going to be another two offseasons to get this roster competitive.

Just accept this team is going to be bad this season and hope that the new staff gets the franchise heading in the right direction. There's still A LOT of work to do be done.
Schoen needs to find the Sam Madison for these Giants  
George from PA : 5/13/2022 8:40 pm : link
.
I’m excited to see the competition  
mako J : 5/13/2022 8:59 pm : link
Jackson, Robinson, R. Williams and Jarren Williams (being slept on)

Holmes and Flott

They’re going to have to add some depth though. Not enough numbers to get through the season.
RE: Schoen needs to find the Sam Madison for these Giants  
Eric on Li : 5/13/2022 9:03 pm : link
In comment 15708122 George from PA said:
Quote:
.


good analogy. that team also had RW McQuarters on what i think was something near the vet minimum. which gave Ross time to break into the lineup.

Webster was to that point a bust who then broke out towards the end of the year when Madison got hurt.

there's no downside to adding depth when you have 37 extra roster spots competing to make the best 53.
its the commenary like on this thread  
Rory : 5/13/2022 9:05 pm : link
that has me seriously skeptical that this fan base has the patience for a true rebuild.

Lower your expectations guys, if you want this to work you have to let Schoen find the diamonds in the rough and let Dabol and staff develop them.
RE: You know we are in  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/13/2022 10:03 pm : link
In comment 15707978 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
uncharted territory when BW has a more positive post than Gidi ( whose patience apparently lasted all of 1 rookie practice).


don't worry bw will be the first to tell you just how bad they are when we are 0-8
Shoen kind of made a fielder's choice play  
Rod in St Cloud : 5/13/2022 10:33 pm : link
The ball comes your way and you throw out the lead runner at 2nd base and let the batter be safe at first. That play came in the 2nd round when they made the choice to draft the WR Robinson instead of the CB or Safety.

At first, I and probably many others were in shock expecting we needed to address CB knowing we were probably losing Bradbury. We had a more than happy ending to the 1st round, but the 2nd rnd was a head-scratcher. When the dust settled, we were informed once again that this draft was about giving our QB the best chance they could. Our draft team decided it was more important to give Jones the best chance to succeed.

To their credit, they did trade down to yield 2 more draft picks before selecting the surprise WR. As we look back on this draft in the future, it will be interesting to determine whether selecting a CB (throwing to 1st base) was the better choice or trading down twice and selecting the WR and 2 other picks (throwing to 2nd base).
Remains to be seen if they bring I. Some help  
dancing blue bear : 5/13/2022 10:47 pm : link
But at this point shoen shit the bed on this. Misplayed the bradberry and Logan Ryan situations badly
I’m fine with 3/4 of the starters. Hell 4/5 if you count slot but there is zero depth anywhere and you’re counting on a cb that hasn’t played I. The nfl.

It’s clear we feel better about these dbs then youdo, darling. That’s some gettlemen level hubris.

I’m very glad that the masses are chanting that this year doesn’t matter. Patience and kumb aya. but that is horseshit. And a losers mentality in a parity based model. These guys are on the clock and this is a results based business. This division blows and is ripe for the taking. Wine all you want about the talent level. It’s on par in the division.
If this team is not around .500 and in the mix the mob will turn on the coaches. And with good reason.

They need to bring in a cpl of professional dbs. Not an all star. Just some guys that have played in the league. Ideally it’s just depth and the young guys stay healthy and win the jobs.

If these guys don’t feel the pressure to win now and understand that the league is set up for them to compete now then we have the wrong ppl and they will be gone I. 2 years like the last 3 guys
dancing blue bear, this line is complete bullshit:  
Klaatu : 5/14/2022 6:20 am : link
Quote:
It’s clear we feel better about these dbs then youdo, darling. That’s some gettlemen level hubris.


Schoen has said that they'd be a better team with Bradberry, but he was put in an untenable position by the previous regime. and didn't want to repeat that regime's financial mistakes. Bradberry just wasn't worth what the Giants would have had to do to keep him, so Schoen decided to take the short-term pain and reap the long-term gain.

The Ryan situation is a little murkier, and I suspect, as others have, that it had less to do with the effect on the cap, and more to do with Ryan's presence in the locker room. I doubt Schoen would have released him without first consulting his coaches, especially the DB coaches held over from last year.

It's not that this year doesn't matter. It's understanding that the team is being built almost from scratch. It's understanding that the old way of sticking a band-aid here and a band-aid there just doesn't work, as the last ten years have shown. The team had to be torn down before it could be built up, and that's going to take time, clearly more than just one offseason. Anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves.

There is no pressure to "win now." There is a desire to show that the Giants can be run competently and efficiently, with an emphasis on sustainable success. Do that, and the wins will come. Maybe not this year, but for many years to come.
RE: On the flip side  
bluefin : 5/14/2022 7:00 am : link
In comment 15708072 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
Glass half full perspective

Jackson- proven starter, 1st round athlete, only 26, played well in 21’

Robinson- ideal scheme fit, looked good when he played last year, great athlete with length and physical play style, ready to make the leap in year 2

Flott- 3rd round pick, oozing potential, incredible movement skills, ascending at age 20, some say he could’ve been a top 50 pick had he stayed one more year at LSU

Holmes- solid as a rookie, was coming around late last year before injury

Love- Jack of all trades, has always been a solid player when asked to play- no matter where he’s asked to line up

McKinney- has the makings of an all pro at FS. Outstanding in his first full season..only 23 years old too

Belton- 4th round pick, all big 10 player with ball production, heady player, versatile with size and decent speed

Corker- should have been drafted, good depth guy

all points above are reasonably accurate
I don't really understand the pessimism  
Mayo2JZ : 5/14/2022 8:05 am : link
New coach, new GM, new staff. Why do we continually see the posts of gloom and doom? Just be excited that we are finally going in the right direction and don't let it become a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Plenty of youth in that Secondary. The result of Gettleman  
Jimmy Googs : 5/14/2022 8:25 am : link
continuing to fail at finding quality longer-term pieces despite the overhwelming volume of draft picks and free agents brought into that unit during his reign.

Nice to have optimism, but let's call a spade a spade. The NFL has a way of making many first round CBs and Safeties look silly as rookies. So keep in everything in check when you start expecting things from a guys taken in later rounds and UDFAs in that unit...
I'm more concerned  
SirLoinOfBeef : 5/14/2022 8:29 am : link
with the actual backfield.

Talk about thin...
The new GM has had 1 FA period with literally no money  
arniefez : 5/14/2022 8:46 am : link
and one draft to try an upgrade the worst OL in the NFL and one of the worst rosters from 1-53. It's not going to happen in 1 year.

I like what the plan seems to be. Build from the lines out. Whatever resources the Giants had goin into the 2023 were spent on improving the OL and the DL/LBs. IMO those are the hardest positions to fill.

Minor league "college" football is producing a much bigger supply of WRs CBs and RBs than OLs and DLs. The Giants DBs on paper appear to be a weakness. The position coach has done a good job and he's a carry over to the new staff. I'm sure the Giants will look to add FAs and waiver players to the DB group but they didn't have the resources to fix everything in one year.

The Giants aren't coming off a bad year. They're coming off a disastrous half decade. It's going to take some time even if Schoen and Daboll do almost everything right.
I saw the headline and thought it was about the offensive  
cosmicj : 5/14/2022 9:34 am : link
Backfield. I think the secondary is among the more talented units on the Giants.
RE: dancing blue bear, this line is complete bullshit:  
Brandon Walsh : 5/14/2022 9:49 am : link
In comment 15708304 Klaatu said:
Quote:


Quote:


It’s clear we feel better about these dbs then youdo, darling. That’s some gettlemen level hubris.



Schoen has said that they'd be a better team with Bradberry, but he was put in an untenable position by the previous regime. and didn't want to repeat that regime's financial mistakes. Bradberry just wasn't worth what the Giants would have had to do to keep him, so Schoen decided to take the short-term pain and reap the long-term gain.

The Ryan situation is a little murkier, and I suspect, as others have, that it had less to do with the effect on the cap, and more to do with Ryan's presence in the locker room. I doubt Schoen would have released him without first consulting his coaches, especially the DB coaches held over from last year.

It's not that this year doesn't matter. It's understanding that the team is being built almost from scratch. It's understanding that the old way of sticking a band-aid here and a band-aid there just doesn't work, as the last ten years have shown. The team had to be torn down before it could be built up, and that's going to take time, clearly more than just one offseason. Anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves.

There is no pressure to "win now." There is a desire to show that the Giants can be run competently and efficiently, with an emphasis on sustainable success. Do that, and the wins will come. Maybe not this year, but for many years to come.


Absolutely great post. Perfect.
Even though we have an "easy"  
Dave on the UWS : 5/14/2022 10:02 am : link
schedule, I can see an 0-5 or 6 start easily. In which case the whining and complaining will be deafening!
Googs and Klaatu  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/14/2022 10:20 am : link
pretty much hit the nail on the head

Btw, I am all for change, and given the way the draft went I was/am happy with the first three picks. (Yes, I think Robinson was a good pick in round 2.) The two coveted CBs were gone.

I also respect the new GM wanting to get on top of the salary cap issue. This year's Giants' Salary cap was totally shredded last year.

I even get being excited at unknown possibility of 8 players being picked in rounds 3-6 somehow being gems that this staff (four of which were just fired) uncovered and are going to be impact players. But if that is somehow so, it would be an outlier, especially to expect it to happen this season.

I expect there to be things to enjoy about this year, and I'm fully prepared to give the new GM and Head Coach some room, but I don't see a heck of a lot of difference between the talent level of Flott and Holmes, and Holmes was a huge mixed bag in his first year and he has his limitations. I don't see a heck of a lot of difference talent wise between Belton and Love, and Love was a huge mixed bag in year one and he has his limitations. Dredging through 900 UDFAs for more options is the right thing to do, but is there really going to be better talent there than Flott and Belton -- that's just highly unlikely.

And there is absolutely no one left on the roster from last year, who hasn't spent some time disappointing us.

It just looks like, at least for the next year, there is going to be some serious weaknesses in the Defensive secondary. I just don't see how you can compete in the NFL, an ever evolving passing league, with a below average Defensive secondary. And I am forecasting that even if there are bright spots in there that it will, on the whole, be below average with many holes in it. It's just unrealistic to think otherwise.

i disagree that schoen misplayed ryan or bradberry  
Eric on Li : 5/14/2022 10:33 am : link
with Ryan it would have been easier to cut him earlier ahead of UFA, and there would be no grievance. So why roster him right up until his guarantee deadline? My bet is he gave Ryan a choice - redo the contract to the same amount you will make anywhere else or we are going to release. basically either opt into the nyg or opt out. if they didn't consider keeping him they would have cut him earlier.

bradberry they had trades agreed to and they were blocked by his refusal to extend. if anything they did him a favor by cutting him so far before camp when they didn't need to.

they wanted players here who want to be here, and were willing to accept the terms they (schoen/daboll) dictated. Shep and Martinez said yes. Ryan and Bradberry had alternative preferences so schoen bit the bullet now (correctly). Had either one fit the new scheme better perhaps they would have had better terms to consider but they didn't the nyg were willing to move on.
Dave, expectations should be grounded in reality.  
Klaatu : 5/14/2022 10:36 am : link
We're not KC or the Rams. We don't have an Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady. We've had the worst record in the league over the past five years, and even though we're "under new management," and we've added a few of what we hope are foundational pieces, we're still far removed from being a good team. We've still got a host of questions that need to be answered (beginning at QB), and plenty of holes that still need to be filled.
RE: I don't really understand the pessimism  
joeinpa : 5/14/2022 10:38 am : link
In comment 15708335 Mayo2JZ said:
Quote:
New coach, new GM, new staff. Why do we continually see the posts of gloom and doom? Just be excited that we are finally going in the right direction and don't let it become a self-fulfilling prophesy.


Pessimism is the default setting for some and any form of positivity or optimism is frowned upon. Those who indulge are guilty of wishful thinking given the certainty of the Giants reality, even though the reality for the 2022 version of the Giants has yet to be determined.
I have to agree with jvm on this point  
lono801 : 5/14/2022 10:42 am : link
‘The funny thing about last year, we had a clown show in the FO and Coaching staff and a revolving door of turnstiles on the Oline and yet we managed to stay in games and look to be improving until we lost our QB. A QB whose play was average at best.’

We will see a bunch of players that can’t seem to get out of their own way at first…

If there was one thing about The Giants…they were never that Revolving Door Team when it came to the FO or coaching staff. Well they are now…and it needs to stop. I refuse to believe that all rests on Maras shoulders…

CB…QB…it does not matter the position. No player can excel…

This is what we are going to do…and it doesn’t matter if it takes one year or five to achieve it

Same Coach
Same GM
Same Coordinators
Consistency

No more New York Noonans




RE: Dave, expectations should be grounded in reality.  
Eric on Li : 5/14/2022 10:44 am : link
In comment 15708410 Klaatu said:
Quote:
We're not KC or the Rams. We don't have an Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady. We've had the worst record in the league over the past five years, and even though we're "under new management," and we've added a few of what we hope are foundational pieces, we're still far removed from being a good team. We've still got a host of questions that need to be answered (beginning at QB), and plenty of holes that still need to be filled.


mediocrity isn't a high bar and that would be progress. the eagles last year had almost all the same issues, browns year before that, rams when mcvay got there, dolphins pre-flores, etc. every year at least 1 team goes from last place to first place in their division, so the 8 last place teams go in with at least a 1/8 shot of surprising everyone.

the biggest decision this offseason was daboll and if they got it right things could be better than we expect. if they didn't it will be more of the same.
I wonder...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/14/2022 10:49 am : link
...if there are a handful of guys that they are looking at in the USFL?
You have to include  
mittenedman : 5/14/2022 10:54 am : link
Wan'dale Robinson in the backfield discussion, too.
RE: RE: I don't really understand the pessimism  
Klaatu : 5/14/2022 11:03 am : link
In comment 15708411 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 15708335 Mayo2JZ said:


Quote:


New coach, new GM, new staff. Why do we continually see the posts of gloom and doom? Just be excited that we are finally going in the right direction and don't let it become a self-fulfilling prophesy.



Pessimism is the default setting for some and any form of positivity or optimism is frowned upon. Those who indulge are guilty of wishful thinking given the certainty of the Giants reality, even though the reality for the 2022 version of the Giants has yet to be determined.


As I said to you in another thread:
Quote:
This line has been attributed to sportswriter Hugh Keough around 1919 or so (built upon a line from Ecclesiastes):

The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet."

And another line, Martin Sheen in "The Departed."

"We deal in deception here. What we do not deal in is self-deception."

Words to live by.

Sure, we've seen teams go from worst to first before, and all kinds of things can happen over the course of a season. But I think we need to take a more realistic approach to 2022. I've said before that seven wins is not unreasonable, and I stand by that. Anything more is gravy to me.


Optimism is fine unless it's unbridled. I'm optimistic about the Giants finally going in the right direction, from the front office to the field, after ten years of mismanagement. However, I recognize that the "quick-fix" approach not only hasn't worked, but raised expectations to a totally unrealistic level. I don't intend to repeat past mistakes, and I trust the Giants won't, either.
RE: dancing blue bear, this line is complete bullshit:  
dancing blue bear : 5/14/2022 1:57 pm : link
In comment 15708304 Klaatu said:
Quote:


Quote:


It’s clear we feel better about these dbs then youdo, darling. That’s some gettlemen level hubris.



Schoen has said that they'd be a better team with Bradberry, but he was put in an untenable position by the previous regime. and didn't want to repeat that regime's financial mistakes. Bradberry just wasn't worth what the Giants would have had to do to keep him, so Schoen decided to take the short-term pain and reap the long-term gain.

The Ryan situation is a little murkier, and I suspect, as others have, that it had less to do with the effect on the cap, and more to do with Ryan's presence in the locker room. I doubt Schoen would have released him without first consulting his coaches, especially the DB coaches held over from last year.

It's not that this year doesn't matter. It's understanding that the team is being built almost from scratch. It's understanding that the old way of sticking a band-aid here and a band-aid there just doesn't work, as the last ten years have shown. The team had to be torn down before it could be built up, and that's going to take time, clearly more than just one offseason. Anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves.

There is no pressure to "win now." There is a desire to show that the Giants can be run competently and efficiently, with an emphasis on sustainable success. Do that, and the wins will come. Maybe not this year, but for many years to come.


There may not seem like there is pressure to win now, but that will change in short order. There is. and there always is. Remember they were going to be more patient with Judge? 2 years, just like the rest. The mob will begin turning on Dabol after the first loss

If bradberry had to go, so be it. I don't mind gambling with the roster bonus. I feel he screwed it up though. They could have grabbed a cpl veteran corners for depth, similar to what he did with the OL. I think they gambled on sauce at 5, screwed up in the 2nd round. Even if they think Flott can play this year him and Arob are both small and inexperienced.

And Logan Ryan? That is baffling. They didn't save any money. With the Grevience it may cost MORE money to cut him them keep him as depth. Instead the 3rd saftey is mid round rookie.

can't judge the whole until it plays out, but the back end is paper thin, and I think there was some better moves to have been made. we will see.

I'm glad people are preaching patience, it's just that i have seen this movie before
RE: RE: dancing blue bear, this line is complete bullshit:  
Southern Man : 5/14/2022 3:08 pm : link
Totally agree. Easy to say no pressure to win now, but that will be a different tune if we start off the season poorly. OP was spot on...we are in bad shape in the defensive backfield. Let's remember to cut Wink some slack when we're giving up a lot of points and a lot of big plays.
dancing blue bear, no, you haven't seen this movie before.  
Klaatu : 5/14/2022 6:20 pm : link
There's a new Director on the set, along with a new script, cast and crew. It should be obvious that the old "Giants Way" has been set aside in favor of a completely new approach to running the organization. It should also be obvious that you don't clean up a mess that was ten years in the making in one offseason, and it should be obvious that you don't repeat the mistakes that made that mess in the first place. The medicine may taste bad, but if it's going to cure what ails you, you hold your nose and swallow it.

As for the "mob," are they massing somewhere in East Rutherford with torches and pitchforks as we speak? I don't know...if, after the last ten years, the Visigoths haven't already sacked MetLife, I doubt they will anytime soon. I think most Giants fans recognize that they have to be patient - whether they like it or not. They don't expect miracles - they expect competence and professionalism, both of which have been in seriously short supply for a decade, but most notably in the past two years.

As for signing veteran OL but not a veteran CB, the OL was vastly more important. Haven't we been saying that for ten years? Shouldn't that have been Schoen's primary focus? And it's not like he gave out monster, multi-year contracts to marginal players. They're almost all one-year stopgaps, but they were still desperately needed. Even so, they couldn't do that with their limited resources and sign a couple of veteran CB's too. Nothing, though, should prevent him from signing a veteran CB over the Summer if one is available, the Giants can afford it, and they feel it's necessary.

As for the draft, you can guess that they might have picked Gardner had he been available, but I believe they were locked in on Thibs and were ecstatic to get him there. Could they have drafted a CB in the 2nd instead of trading down? Sure, but by trading down (twice) they were able to pick up a Safety and an ILB (both of which were bigger needs in my view), and still get the WR they coveted. I'd say Schoen played things out pretty well.

So, the back end is thin? The whole motherlovin' roster was thin when Schoen took over. It was arguably the least talented roster in the league. Thin? It was freakin' anorexic! If you thought that was going to get turned around in one offseason, I'm afraid you were mistaken. It was never going to be a one-year fix. It was always going to take a couple of yaars, at least. Again, I think the vast majority of Giant fans recognize that. If you don't, well, it's a free country, and you can always come here and vent.
saw this on twitter today and it helps explain the nyg issue at CB  
Eric on Li : 5/14/2022 7:04 pm : link
Quote:
Andrew
@DrewCzar
per
@MathBomb
and
@pfref

This is a list of All-Pro Outside Corners since 2015.

30% of them had top 10% armlength.

70% of them had top 50% armlength.

Basically every guy, 22/23, or 96%, had top 66% armlength.




current nyg corners arm length:

adoree jackson 31 3/8
aaron robinson 30 1/4
cordale flott 20 1/8
darnay holmes 29 1/2

this is why the bottom 3 were projected as slot corners, because their arm length alone puts them at a disadvantage compared to 96% of the players who have made all pro at outside corner.

bradberry had 33 inch arms so while he apparently wasn't a good fit for the scheme he did fill a void on the roster - one i think they'd be shortsighted to not try to at least add some depth with a cheap UFA or 2. I've said it a few other threads but Kevin King (6'3, 32 inch arms, 27 years old, 42 career starts) is the type they should take a flier on. Or kyle fuller or aj bouye.
*flott's are 30 1/8 (not 20)  
Eric on Li : 5/14/2022 7:05 pm : link
which seems odd since he's also 6'+.
RE: On the flip side  
5BowlsSoon : 5/14/2022 7:18 pm : link
In comment 15708072 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
Glass half full perspective

Jackson- proven starter, 1st round athlete, only 26, played well in 21’

Robinson- ideal scheme fit, looked good when he played last year, great athlete with length and physical play style, ready to make the leap in year 2

Flott- 3rd round pick, oozing potential, incredible movement skills, ascending at age 20, some say he could’ve been a top 50 pick had he stayed one more year at LSU

Holmes- solid as a rookie, was coming around late last year before injury

Love- Jack of all trades, has always been a solid player when asked to play- no matter where he’s asked to line up

McKinney- has the makings of an all pro at FS. Outstanding in his first full season..only 23 years old too

Belton- 4th round pick, all big 10 player with ball production, heady player, versatile with size and decent speed

Corker- should have been drafted, good depth guy


I’m glad someone said this…..

Jackson, Mck, and Love are pretty good (when healthy)

The other guys are all young, hungry, and very promising. I think we will surprise. I also think we sign some veteran one year rental to help out this year.
The Giants can Target...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/14/2022 7:18 pm : link
...CB at the top of the draft in April. Rd 1 or 2.
RE: The Giants can Target...  
Eric on Li : 5/14/2022 7:24 pm : link
In comment 15708740 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...CB at the top of the draft in April. Rd 1 or 2.


what's the downside to a cheap vet for 1 year?

if a younger player plays better they still get in, if not they don't get picked apart like Baker, Balentine, Beal, Yiadom, Rodarius Williams in his 1 game last year, etc.
No downside...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/14/2022 8:30 pm : link
...just noting the fan remorse of not solving all of the personnel issues in the 2022 draft.
RE: No downside...  
Eric on Li : 5/14/2022 11:07 pm : link
In comment 15708778 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...just noting the fan remorse of not solving all of the personnel issues in the 2022 draft.


right, there's a reason they supposedly coveted Sauce.
Back to the Corner