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Daniel Jones can he improve?

simgiant : 5/15/2022 12:03 am
I know this horse is beaten to death but the offseason is long.
He seems like a hard worker and will do anything to improve.
With a better OL and a more modern offense can he be a top 15 QB in the league??
I think he can make all the throws and has a great deep ball.

However my opinion is he does not have "it". I have never scouted any players in my life, however it seems to me top QBs in the league have that 6th sense in the pocket that allows them to take a step up or to the side that you cant teach.
Daniel does not have that sense and will never be calm in the pocket because he knows he doesn't have it. Maybe I am unfair because he has never had a pocket to step into?
Anybody here still a believer?
If ever there was an unexplored topic on bbi,  
Mad Mike : 5/15/2022 12:04 am : link
this is it.
I think we will find out in a few months  
eric2425ny : 5/15/2022 12:06 am : link
Daboll is going to give him every chance to prove himself. He has stated multiple times that he wants Jones to be aggressive and take chances.

If he fails Tyrod will bridge the team until they draft the future starter in next year’s draft.

I agree with you on Jones, he’s got a decent arm, can run, but something just doesn’t seem right about him from a franchise QB standpoint.
RE: If ever there was an unexplored topic on bbi,  
eric2425ny : 5/15/2022 12:09 am : link
In comment 15708946 Mad Mike said:
Quote:
this is it.


Agreed, but Jones’ success/failure will have a massive impact not only on this season, but what will happen in the years to come.
simgiant asks”Is anyone here still a believer”? No there are no  
plato : 5/15/2022 12:57 am : link
believers here just giant fans. You looking for believers go to your favorite house of prayer. You want Giant fans and football, come to BBI
Please, Please, Please  
Maijay : 5/15/2022 5:23 am : link
enough of the Daniel Jones speculation. Just let the team know by the end or at some point of the season that he is or isn't part of the answer at QB. If we get that determination I will be thrilled.
While anything is possible  
Mike in NY : 5/15/2022 6:12 am : link
For example look at Rich Gannon’s career. That being said, I would not bet on it as turning it around after what he has shown so far is by far an exception not the rule.
At this point I don't think it will be  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/15/2022 7:47 am : link
dramatic. He certainly has more of a knowledge base to rely on and things can slow down more but some of his issues will always be there imv.

What can make a huge difference is improving the team around him and putting him in positions to use his talent available. This would appear like his own huge improvement but this position has always been dependent on talent more so than any other. Hopefully the Giants get close to finding what level this is for DJ this year.
The bigger question is  
Giant John : 5/15/2022 7:51 am : link
Can the Giants offense improve? Of course they can.
The better question is  
Dave on the UWS : 5/15/2022 8:01 am : link
"can JONES become an elite QB?" I doubt anyone here will say yes. Can he become a serviceable middle of the road QB in an offensive system that doesn't suck? Probably yes.
Sure he can. But not nearly enough to prove he’s the guy.  
The_Boss : 5/15/2022 8:30 am : link
He’ll be someone’s backup next spring and we will hopefully have another rookie in here with top 10 qb potential.
Jones can do it  
Rod in St Cloud : 5/15/2022 8:32 am : link
Eli was a good QB. When the supporting talent around him declined, so did he. Mahomes is an elite talent. We all saw how helpless he looked when he didn't have a decent offensive line. Some QBs can seem to overcome a bad oline, but then they have outstanding Wrs and Rbs, but may get sacked too frequently and risk injury. In Jones case, it was even worse because the coaching sucked as well.

The new coaching staff know he wasn't given a fair chance to succeed. We all know he wasn't given a fair chance either and yet are fully convinced it didn't matter; he's just not the guy. I like to look back at his rookie year when it seemed he did have the talent to succeed but simply needed to fix his fumbling and turnovers. That being the case, I am optimistic he can become the guy when given a decent offensive line, starting quality receivers, and a real system to operate in. So yeah, I think he can become the guy. But if not, then we have to move on.
I think in the beginning, Jones showed a lot of promise  
USAF NYG Fan : 5/15/2022 8:36 am : link
but he's not showing those things the last couple of years. So I guess I disagree that he hasn't shown flashes. Watching him recently, he plays scared and cautious like he's holding back. At least IMHO. As has been said far too many times already; the offensive play calling sucked (overall coaching sucked), his OL sucked, and his receiving core sucked (or couldn't stay on the field). Let's be honest, NO QB in the league has been handed the shit sandwich Jones has. I think it's too late though myself. I think the damage to him mentally has been done. I hope he proves me wrong.

Therefore, I think the real questions are;

1. Have those other factors been corrected (haven't played a single down yet) and then, if so...
2. Can Daniel Jones recover and show the team that he's an ascending talent and hasn't already plateaued (or is not permanently broken mentally).

I think a lot of potentially great QBs had their career destroyed early on by the lack of support, weapons, coaching, etc around them. However, if they can't recover from a bad situation, they probably don't deserve it anyway.
RE: Jones can do it  
bw in dc : 5/15/2022 9:29 am : link
In comment 15709027 Rod in St Cloud said:
Quote:
I like to look back at his rookie year when it seemed he did have the talent to succeed but simply needed to fix his fumbling and turnovers. That being the case, I am optimistic he can become the guy when given a decent offensive line, starting quality receivers, and a real system to operate in. So yeah, I think he can become the guy. But if not, then we have to move on.


Did it ever occur to you that after his rookie year DCs saw Jones's flaws, and now they know how to exploit them?

And with two additional years on his resume, DCs are very locked in on how to defend a very limited QB in Jones...
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/15/2022 9:36 am : link
'Yeah, Jones can be a good QB. He just needs All Pros at every other offensive position to elevate his game.'
I think his ceiling is Ryan Tannehill IMO.....  
Simms11 : 5/15/2022 10:01 am : link
That would make him an average NFL starter which is what I think he is. Can he get us to the playoffs? Possibly if he stays healthy. I think Daboll and Kafka will develop an offense that is suitable to him and helps him and the receivers. That in itself should be enough to see improvement from him, as well as an semi-competent Oline in front of him! I don’t think he’ll ever improve pocket awareness and his ability to quickly process things and get the ball out. That’s what has been getting him in trouble, but perhaps if he gets another second or two in the pocket maybe he will be better?! I don’t believe though that the Giants will see enough from him this year to keep him around.
Yes he can improve  
joeinpa : 5/15/2022 10:41 am : link
His ceiling is not yet known.

In sports we often become unable to look past the present when evaluating the future. Using past performance to predict the future is what we do, but sports is littered with “unexpected “ success stories





"We need to wait until  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 5/15/2022 10:51 am : link
he has an all-pro OL.

Then and only then can we evaluate him. Any sucking he does in the meantime is clearly not his fault.

Also, Malik Willis is stupid. Pass it on."
I suppose that...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/15/2022 10:59 am : link
...we will see this fall.
the whole system now has a chance to improve:  
thrunthrublue : 5/15/2022 11:28 am : link
including 8......hoping the days of run on first down, no gain, screen pass on second down, lose 5 yards, third down pass either short of the first down, or incomplete or tipped for an interception, or qb sacked for ten yard loss.... are gone!!!!!! also hoping to eliminate all the procedural and holding penalties emitting from one of the most incompetent offenses on the planet for the last ten years!
RE: Yes he can improve  
Scooter185 : 5/15/2022 11:40 am : link
In comment 15709136 joeinpa said:
Quote:
His ceiling is not yet known.

In sports we often become unable to look past the present when evaluating the future. Using past performance to predict the future is what we do, but sports is littered with “unexpected “ success stories






and full of players who started good and busted out
Well there is certainly room to improve  
Jimmy Googs : 5/15/2022 12:09 pm : link
and in about every part of his game.

except maybe his receiving skills...
Can he.. yes..  
blueblood : 5/15/2022 12:16 pm : link
will he.. who knows.
He will never be elite  
US1 Giants : 5/15/2022 12:18 pm : link
Think he can be a decent starter or a good backup.
RE: ...  
joe48 : 5/15/2022 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15709064 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
'Yeah, Jones can be a good QB. He just needs All Pros at every other offensive position to elevate his game.'

Well he hasn’t had any the last 2 years. You have no way of proving that.
He’d have to improve significantly to be “top 15 QB”  
BrianLeonard23 : 5/15/2022 1:21 pm : link
And guess where that gets you, in a good year? 9 wins and a Saturday afternoon Wild Card loss.

I’m not really interested in another Andy Dalton.
RE: The bigger question is  
Mark from Jersey : 5/15/2022 1:33 pm : link
In comment 15709016 Giant John said:
Quote:
Can the Giants offense improve? Of course they can.
Hard to do worse than last year hehe
How would you compare Jones to last year's other starters on offense?  
Marty in Albany : 5/15/2022 2:00 pm : link
I think Jones was better at qb than they were at their positions.

I do not think that the WRs, TEs, RBs, or Oline would have performed better if Jones had been a better passer. But I do think that the reverse is true.

Put me in a Porche 911 and I can drive a lot faster than in my Accord.
RE: He’d have to improve significantly to be “top 15 QB”  
Ivan15 : 5/15/2022 2:01 pm : link
In comment 15709235 BrianLeonard23 said:
Quote:
And guess where that gets you, in a good year? 9 wins and a Saturday afternoon Wild Card loss.

I’m not really interested in another Andy Dalton.


For 12 out of 15 seasons, the Giants had Andy Dalton playing QB. His name was Eli, and for 3 seasons (2007, 2008, and 2011), he was elite. I think most here would say Eli was a franchise QB for the whole 15 years. Since this is a rebuild year no matter who is playing QB, I would give Jones one more year to prove himself. By midseason or earlier, half of us may get our wish for another starting QB.
RE: ...  
knowledgetimmons : 5/15/2022 3:27 pm : link
In comment 15709064 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
'Yeah, Jones can be a good QB. He just needs All Pros at every other offensive position to elevate his game.'


Being a shitposter is such an easy job. Your contribution is exhibit A.
BW makes a fair point  
Dave on the UWS : 5/15/2022 6:59 pm : link
about DCs having enough tape on Jones to exploit his weaknesses. QBs need to constantly adjust and refine their game. Garrett’s pathetic excuse for an offense and the excessive harping on turnovers, largely neutered the next steps Jones would have had to take after his rookie season.
Daboll and Kafka are going to put him in a position to succeed and try to unlock whatever ability IS there. I think an average starter is very possible. The issue is “is that good enough?”. I was never an Eli fan during the regular seasons (except for 2011), but he had another level in the playoffs. We really have no idea if that “2nd gear” exists with Jones. My gut says no, but Schoen and Daboll want to find out.
One thing  
TommyWiseau : 5/15/2022 9:30 pm : link
We know about him is that he will not be outworked. He is a extremely hard worker who puts in tons of effort. Unfortunately it takes more then that to be an elite QB in the NFL.

I hope he can make strides but I do not see him being better then a Prime Tannehill or Andy Dalton
Low ceiling  
xman : 5/15/2022 9:46 pm : link
the Force is not with him
he absolutely can improve  
markky : 5/16/2022 12:16 am : link
look at the stats of QBs that have played behind both good and bad OLs, and the difference is pretty dramatic.

I've posted the stats for Clemson's DJ Uiagalelei. Here's another example. Remember the "on to Cincinnati" expression? That was because the Pats got crushed in the previous game due to a porous OL. The Pats fixed it and got back on track. But the real talk that entire week back in 2014 was that Brady was washed up and should retire. Because he looked terrible behind a porous OL.
I hope he’s the biggest problem this year.  
Big Blue Blogger : 5/16/2022 7:19 am : link
That would be a stark contrast to previous seasons, when a knowledgeable witness like Phil Simms could watch the Giants and call Daniel Jones “the best player on that team.”

As for whether he can improve… he can get much better results just by improving his short-range accuracy. Throws like the one where Barkley hurt his ankle, or the many that Engram couldn’t haul in, have cost Jones much more than a wasted down or an aborted drive. Those mechanical errors on short throws should be fixable. The mental mistakes might improve with better protection, but nothing in his history suggests that he will ever overcome them. I’m afraid Jones may be Joey Harrington to Gettleman’s Matt Millen.
DC’s now have all the tape they need on Jones?  
lono801 : 5/16/2022 8:26 am : link
All a DC needed to do was exploit a terrible O-line…and they did.

Any AA Jones has…for the most part…has been completely neutered by poor O-line play…if I was a DC that’s where I would start.



It's possible  
UberAlias : 5/16/2022 9:06 am : link
Daboll and Schoen have been very firm in maintaining that he's our starting QB, even with Taylor in the room. Clearly they are not committing to him, otherwise they would have taken his 5th year, and why would they, but if they were convinced that he wasn't at least capable of improving I think we'd see something closer to an open competition.
I just think he's messed up in the head  
Jim in Forest Hills : 5/16/2022 9:26 am : link
Partly due to how he was coached and the talent that was round him. He played not to lose it looked like. He has to own whats in his head, physically he can do it. Can he overcome his doubts?

Can Daboll fix his in game thinking, who knows but I'm leaning doubtful.
Yes, and I think he will  
JonC : 5/16/2022 9:46 am : link
but do I see him hoisting a Lombardi? No, and that should be the focal point with Jones in his contract year. "Improving" is a low branch to aim for, it's time for him to show much more or it's going to be time to move on.
RE: Low ceiling  
JonC : 5/16/2022 9:47 am : link
In comment 15709627 xman said:
Quote:
the Force is not with him


+1
To me - Still a wildcard in either direction  
Bob in Newburgh : 5/16/2022 12:51 pm : link
The 2 year olds who are posting just claim he sucks, end of story.

Those of us who are at least 3 years old understand that Jones is a type who is going to need support to succeed except perhaps for an occasional QB run. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Even a Brady can not see things that are not there.

Fact: a timetable means nothing if an organization fails to
provide tools within that timetable.
Fact: No reliable run game - ball control or big play
Fact: No reliable pass protection without major breakdowns
Fact: No receiving game which required neutralizing more
than 1 receiver.

Sure a pocket QB will be sure to thrive given the above environment. I know Jones sucking has been stated ad nauseam by the 2 year old crowd. He also seems responsible for the option provisions of the CBA. The turf at the stadium. SB's running style. Engram's lack of ball focus. Shepherd's propensity for missing games. Slayton's continued downward drift. OC's style which made Neanderthals seem progressive.

Odds are stacked against Jones because he is not the new regime's guy and will create giant, perhaps intractable salary cap problems if he, against all odds, has a breakout season. Path of least resistance for the new regime is to tank 2022 season, and to do that Jones cannot win games.
To me - Still a wildcard in either direction  
Bob in Newburgh : 5/16/2022 12:52 pm : link
The 2 year olds who are posting just claim he sucks, end of story.

Those of us who are at least 3 years old understand that Jones is a type who is going to need support to succeed except perhaps for an occasional QB run. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Even a Brady can not see things that are not there.

Fact: a timetable means nothing if an organization fails to
provide tools within that timetable.
Fact: No reliable run game - ball control or big play
Fact: No reliable pass protection without major breakdowns
Fact: No receiving game which required neutralizing more
than 1 receiver.

Sure a pocket QB will be sure to thrive given the above environment. I know Jones sucking has been stated ad nauseam by the 2 year old crowd. He also seems responsible for the option provisions of the CBA. The turf at the stadium. SB's running style. Engram's lack of ball focus. Shepherd's propensity for missing games. Slayton's continued downward drift. OC's style which made Neanderthals seem progressive.

Odds are stacked against Jones because he is not the new regime's guy and will create giant, perhaps intractable salary cap problems if he, against all odds, has a breakout season. Path of least resistance for the new regime is to tank 2022 season, and to do that Jones cannot win games.
To call him "messed up in the head"  
NoGainDayne : 5/16/2022 1:13 pm : link
ignores the fact that Sy nailed his mental deficiencies in his scouting report.

He's not a fast thinker. And because the game moves faster than his mind it makes him too easily flustered and he knows this. All of this "he's so smart and he works so hard" stuff misunderstands how brains work differently. And some people don't even need to think about the game as much as have a feel they've developed for it.

I doubt Brett Favre is doing better learning macroeconomics than Daniel Jones. But they didn't draft Daniel Jones to be an investment banker even though they talk about him as if it's the same thing.

Could, in a perfect world BD act as a surrogate brain for DJ. (Look here first, then here, then here) Sure and that will probably go better but who knows how well? The bottom line is the real measure of any skill in any profession is how well someone does in the face of the unexpected, the unplanned. And you don't suddenly get good at that.
I will say one thing about Jones' rookie year  
Greg from LI : 5/16/2022 1:21 pm : link
He came into the league very well-trained by Cutcliffe. I said at the time that one thing that concerned me was the notion that Jones had less "room to grow" than most college QBs because he received much higher-level, NFL quality tutoring at the position. The development most young QBs make is built largely on things like throwing mechanics, footwork, and reading defenses. Jones already had been well schooled in mechanics and footwork.

IMO he has already largely maxed out his ability.
People like to point to the Saints game as  
Solum Aeternum : 5/16/2022 1:49 pm : link
"see this is what Jones can be". However every bad is a broken clock that is right twice in a day. Meaning that may not be who Jones consistently is. I see he may be closer to 2019 as a 25/15 guy with about 3,600 yards. Not terrible but not elite.
RE: I will say one thing about Jones' rookie year  
Scooter185 : 5/16/2022 2:03 pm : link
In comment 15710243 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
He came into the league very well-trained by Cutcliffe. I said at the time that one thing that concerned me was the notion that Jones had less "room to grow" than most college QBs because he received much higher-level, NFL quality tutoring at the position. The development most young QBs make is built largely on things like throwing mechanics, footwork, and reading defenses. Jones already had been well schooled in mechanics and footwork.

IMO he has already largely maxed out his ability.


Exactly why I laugh at the "look at what BD and MK did with Allen/Jones" posts

They sculpted raw guys into great QBs. They're now taking on a QB who had high level CFB coaching, and now 3 years in the NFL, as well as the same personal coach since HS.

A potter can fix mistakes in wet clay, but once it's been put in the kiln not so much.
Can Daniel be "The One"?  
royhobbs7 : 5/16/2022 3:06 pm : link
DJ has some good tools, no doubt. However, the elite QBs in the NFL are capable of giving their receivers time to get open. DJ does not have the ability to move in the pocket. He is also poor at feeling pressure. These are cognitive responses comprised of mental adroitness which DJ just doesn't possess.

For the Giants' passing game to flourish, they need a QB who possesses these aforementioned qualities. 2022 will be DJ's last year and he may not make it through the season given his injury history. So, we will need to find a QB in the 2023 draft to be the next heir to what appears to be an otherwise promising near future for our Giants.
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