Washington hired Rivera and he has made them better. Not great but better. 14-19 with like 5 different starting qbs.
Philly hired Siriani and he went 9-8 with hurts in what was supposed to be a rebuilding year.
the Cowboys are an odd team in terms of head coaching but McCarthy let Kellen Moore keep that offense on track and Quinn did a great job with the defense.
the nfce is not a strong division. none of those guys are elite coaches and none of them have elite QBs or elite defenses.
where daboll ranks is the biggest question for this franchise right now.
before they released Bradberry. Now the secondary, which was arguably one of the strongest positions on the team last year, lost two solid vets. That's not nothing.
Past discussions seemed heavily directed at the HC and QB but the biggest problem for a decade is the Giants inability to compete/win along the lines.
"Modernize" the offense all you want but until this happens expect similar results imv.
now that the resources invested are sufficient, doesn't it become a proxy on coaching anyway? Did they bring in the right OL coach, system, veterans, draft picks to get the results they need?
The unknown in team sports is always what will the sum of its parts be on the field on gameday. Nothing has changed at QB, young team, thin roster, brand new systems and hopefully culture.
This is not the focus, IMO. There is going to be a good portion of fans tuning in each week overemphasizing wins losses and the standings and odds are they are going to be disappointed. If you want to know what success looks like this year, you have to look deeper.
Past discussions seemed heavily directed at the HC and QB but the biggest problem for a decade is the Giants inability to compete/win along the lines.
"Modernize" the offense all you want but until this happens expect similar results imv.
now that the resources invested are sufficient, doesn't it become a proxy on coaching anyway? Did they bring in the right OL coach, system, veterans, draft picks to get the results they need?
Absolutely it is a very big component. Just like good food needs good ingredients coaches and systems need the players
Looking at Dallas's OL in particular and Philly's lines on both sides have not been favorable to the Giants imv.
all we heard about is how we need to blow it up and start over, we finally get that and everyone wants to jump right into are we ready to compete. We have a brand new coaching staff who has purged the cap of over priced veterans and done what they could but on a shoe string budget and we likely don't even have our QB yet. We all know this, but we are still asking such questions? LOL
The unknown in team sports is always what will the sum of its parts be on the field on gameday. Nothing has changed at QB, young team, thin roster, brand new systems and hopefully culture.
Coaching should be better. I think this will come down to injuries again. You look and starting LG out, Backup LG out, starting Center out, WR injuries were a disaster last year, Barkley missed a bunch, Best LB out most of the year, Starting SS out most of the year, Starting QB out a bunch of games, etc etc. So if we stay even a little more healthy that should make us better.
Throw in we have greatly improved what what played last year Center, RG, and RT. We added a monster pass rusher. We got rid of a TE who not only dropped some easy important passes, but lead us to turnovers on tipped balls off his hands. Our backup QB has actually had good success in this league. Our biggest loss from last year Bradberry didn't play up to his usual standards.
So if by keeping pace you mean will be better? I think again if we don't get devastated by injuries we will be greatly improved. I think 7-8 wins is a tremendous start to what we are doing. Will the rest of the NFC east improve 3-4 games next year? Doubtful
all we heard about is how we need to blow it up and start over, we finally get that and everyone wants to jump right into are we ready to compete. We have a brand new coaching staff who has purged the cap of over priced veterans and done what they could but on a shoe string budget and we likely don't even have our QB yet. We all know this, but we are still asking such questions? LOL
Got to keep generating web clicks. grin. I'll be paying close attention to individual players and the chemistry on the field, how the coaches gameplan and perform in real-time, etc. Small tangible signs of progress and chemistry, going to hear those words a lot from me. Want to see players and coaches who get it, who are able to think, adjust, roll with the punches, establish momentum of growth and development, etc. 2023 draft is also going to be vital to the future of NYG to add to the foundation.
Now that there is a good chance line is fixed, there isnt really a weapon on offense.
Defense, its gonna be fun with the edge pass rushers, but CBs....so it might be a trade off with QBs having less time to throw....maybe they wont expose the somewhat weak secondary
Now that there is a good chance line is fixed, there isnt really a weapon on offense.
Defense, its gonna be fun with the edge pass rushers, but CBs....so it might be a trade off with QBs having less time to throw....maybe they wont expose the somewhat weak secondary
Hey Eric et al: Interesting question. I get it all the time over at my site from Giants' fans. The problem in assessing where the Giants are at based on 2021 is that there were in fact two Giants teams last year. There was the team with Daniel Jones at QB which for all intents and purposes was a 6-7 win team. Then there was the team that finished the season with Glennon and Fromm at QB and that team quite literally was potentially an 0-17 team. But that was almost entirely because Glennon and Fromm were bad, I mean historically bad. I lived thru the 1970s when the Giants QBing was bad but those last 6 games last year it was pathetic.
And I would suggest that what happened in those final 6 games is almost totally irrelevant to where the Giants are today. Assume that DJ is okay and with Taylor as a solid back up I think you can make the case that you are really starting as a 6-7 wins-type team. And that was against one of the tougher schedules in the league last year, with a patch-work offensive line, your skill positions decimated by injuries and no pass rush.
I expect one group that will be very disappointed if the Giants don't at least get over .500 this year are the Giants themselves at least barring another series of catastrophic injuries. I mean, again barring a run of injuries, the OL has to be better, the skill guys like Golladay, Toney and Saquon appear to be significantly healthier than they were at any time last year, and the addition of Thibo and Martindale should give the pass rush a boost. You still worry about both the secondary and the overall depth which is pretty thin, but at least on paper there is absolutely no reason, again at least barring a run of injuries at a critical position or two that the Giants should be able to at least compete for a wild-card in what looks to be a pretty watered down NFC right now.
Again, the players still have to make plays and so much rests on the performance and health of DJ, but to me, and I am an eternal optimist, this has all the feel of a potential 1984 type season. But that's why we play the games!
all we heard about is how we need to blow it up and start over, we finally get that and everyone wants to jump right into are we ready to compete. We have a brand new coaching staff who has purged the cap of over priced veterans and done what they could but on a shoe string budget and we likely don't even have our QB yet. We all know this, but we are still asking such questions? LOL
Got to keep generating web clicks. grin. I'll be paying close attention to individual players and the chemistry on the field, how the coaches gameplan and perform in real-time, etc. Small tangible signs of progress and chemistry, going to hear those words a lot from me. Want to see players and coaches who get it, who are able to think, adjust, roll with the punches, establish momentum of growth and development, etc. 2023 draft is also going to be vital to the future of NYG to add to the foundation.
I'm with you 100%. If the results show in the standings, that's gravy. More likely though if you want to see success, you're going to have to look deeper.
Now that there is a good chance line is fixed, there isnt really a weapon on offense.
Defense, its gonna be fun with the edge pass rushers, but CBs....so it might be a trade off with QBs having less time to throw....maybe they wont expose the somewhat weak secondary
OL needs an LG to emerge, C is a one year stop-gap, and if they're smart they're grooming a RG behind Glowinski. No resting on laurels, football doesn't work well that way.
1) bring front office (decision makers) into current century and add an element of a cohesive management group including coaches
2) bring a modern offense (one that doesn't set playmakers up for failure)
3) at long last, construct an NFL caliber OL
4) with personnel and scheme, advance the defense to be more attack oriented rather than a bend and then inevitably break approach
5) be fiscally responsible
I like what they did in all of these areas. As currently constructed, this is not a contender (far from it), but I finally like the foundation that has been put into place.
1) bring front office (decision makers) into current century and add an element of a cohesive management group including coaches
2) bring a modern offense (one that doesn't set playmakers up for failure)
3) at long last, construct an NFL caliber OL
4) with personnel and scheme, advance the defense to be more attack oriented rather than a bend and then inevitably break approach
5) be fiscally responsible
I like what they did in all of these areas. As currently constructed, this is not a contender (far from it), but I finally like the foundation that has been put into place.
the three "it" factor things that I see as being impactfully upgraded for next year are O'line, Pass Rush, Coaching
the three areas I see as being on watch are:
TE corps - took a missed blessing hit with loss of Engram, Rudolph, and Smith -- addition of Seals Jones, Akins Bellinger -- we hope their blocking is improved and their ability to stay on the on the field and catch is more reliable --
WR corps -- Golladay, Shepard, Toney, Robinson - are they going to be able to stay on the field and produce
RB corps -- Barkley, Breida, Brightwell, someone else -- can they stay on the field and produce with a more open offense
I think we know what we have in Daniel Jones -- He's a guy that can make plays -- has moments where he looks poised and sharp -- but a third of the time is going to make a head scratcher and takes too many risks with his body
so the questions that really have to answered are:
Does this improved Oline avail Jones of the opportunities to take less risk and make more plays where he is going to his skill players?
Do the 1 & 2 players of the above position groups on average - stay on the field more - increase the opportunities for primary targets available for Jones to utilize?
Then there is the D scheme -- can Wink make hay with up graded front and down graded defensive backfield?
If the entire division is under .500 again then maybe, but otherwise no. Not a lot of talent on this team, and two of the best players (Thibodeaux and Neal) will be rookies adjusting to the league.
so in that sense I suppose we have kept pace but I dont think that we are any closer to competing for the division.
In order of my excitement for the improvements that have been made:
1. 21st century offensive scheme and play calling
2. Evan Neal and a professional, if unspectacular, IOL
3. Kayvon Thibodeau
4. Jeff Ezeudu
17. Elerson Smith - I think he is going to play a real role this year and will be someone we are excited about next offseason.
QB was still up in the air until later in the '84 season when finally Simms started to emerge.
Yes I know about Simms' long journey to established QB1. The point is, QB is obviously still up in the air in 2022, and it's highly likely the current QB isn't about to ascend to "long term solution" viability at the conclusion of 2022. Keep building the team and when the QB presents himself, be in a position to do whatever it takes to bring him in the fold. For all we know, that opportunity might be next spring.
before they released Bradberry. Now the secondary, which was arguably one of the strongest positions on the team last year, lost two solid vets. That's not nothing.
They had no choice but to release Bradberry. Not enough cap space to keep him.
1) bring front office (decision makers) into current century and add an element of a cohesive management group including coaches
2) bring a modern offense (one that doesn't set playmakers up for failure)
3) at long last, construct an NFL caliber OL
4) with personnel and scheme, advance the defense to be more attack oriented rather than a bend and then inevitably break approach
5) be fiscally responsible
I like what they did in all of these areas. As currently constructed, this is not a contender (far from it), but I finally like the foundation that has been put into place.
Absolutely Correct!
I would add:
6) Find out this year if Daniel Jones will be the quarterback going forward.
all we heard about is how we need to blow it up and start over, we finally get that and everyone wants to jump right into are we ready to compete. We have a brand new coaching staff who has purged the cap of over priced veterans and done what they could but on a shoe string budget and we likely don't even have our QB yet. We all know this, but we are still asking such questions? LOL
IMO there is no such thing as “blow it up”. There is no rebuild. Just a continual build. The roster turns over 20-30% every year. That is the nfl. There are plenty of core players that predate the current regime.
In terms of ready to compete depends on what you mean. For the Super Bowl? No. For the division and or a playoff spot? They better be thinking that way. The nfl is built for that too. Eagles made the playoffs last year and Washington won the division the year before. So if they are not competing for a playoff spot in December we have the wrong people again
This purge you speak of…2 dubious cuts in the secondary and then?
And another thing, there will be no patience from anyone once the season starts. Of course winning and losing matters. That’s the point.
no, this team will finish last in NFC East this year
There is going to be growing pains with the rookies we have and our WR and DB crop leaves alot to be desired. Giants will be 6-11, and the 6 wins is generous because we have a weak schedule.
no, this team will finish last in NFC East this year
There is going to be growing pains with the rookies we have and our WR and DB crop leaves alot to be desired. Giants will be 6-11, and the 6 wins is generous because we have a weak schedule.
No we cannot keep pace in the NFC East with current situation
We've made some improvements, but still having gap holes.
QB: Oft injured, underperforming, Jones.
RB: Oft injured Barkley and journeymen.
WR: Golladay, Toney, and Robinson. Golladay produced nothing his first year. Toney is injured a lot, and Robinson is a rookie. The rest are journeymen.
TE: Two journeymen and a fourth round rookie.
OL: Stop gap veterans on the interior and a rookie at RT.
CB: Lots of questions, especially whether Robinson can be a good starter.
S: More questions, and also a lack of bodies.
As others have said, this is a two or three year rebuild. Anything can happen in today's NFL, but I think realistically we won't compete for a playoff spot until 2024.
Until the Giants find one, they are in limbo. That sounds harsh, but it’s the reality of the league. The good news, There are no Josh Allen type QB’s in the division. Further, the elite QB’s in the NFC as a whole are limited.
Big opportunity for the Giants if they do things right.
I'm thinking the timeline looks something like this:
2022: 5-12ish
2023: Turn over the rest of Gettleman's roster, draft a QB, win 6-9 games with the rookie QB
2024: Compete for a playoff spot
That's if everything goes right, there are no key injuries, etc. If we hit a home run with the rookie QB pick maybe that gets moved up a year.
But I think we've got to give these guys one mulligan year just to get rid of Gettleman's garbage and install a framework for future growth (which we're seeing with all the front office turnover).
to start a re-direction of the team philosophy.
Dallas got better. But was already deeply rooted with talent.
Washington got even better.
Philly significantly improved.
The Giants are going to try to find themselves and their identity, so I don’t think they are in a keep pace mode as much as a just pacing mode.
They are closer to Philly, then Washington, than to Dallas.
Ohara mentions vets not pinning hope on the rookies.
You think the Giants will be lucky to win 6 games. If you think Jones is a serviceable QB who will be better with an improved OL and healthy weapons, you think the Giants have a chance to be a .500 team.
Personally, I fall in line with Colin@gbn. If the Giants can stay healthy and Jones remains upright, I think this team can approach .500 with an coaching staff that knows what they are doing.
Both the offense and defense will be much improved
Wink will have the defense playing at a high level and I believe our offense will be much improved as a result of a better O line and finally a modern style of offense.
Will Kayvon Thibodeaux be Next Great Giants Pass Rusher? - ( New Window )
Philly hired Siriani and he went 9-8 with hurts in what was supposed to be a rebuilding year.
the Cowboys are an odd team in terms of head coaching but McCarthy let Kellen Moore keep that offense on track and Quinn did a great job with the defense.
the nfce is not a strong division. none of those guys are elite coaches and none of them have elite QBs or elite defenses.
where daboll ranks is the biggest question for this franchise right now.
"Modernize" the offense all you want but until this happens expect similar results imv.
"Modernize" the offense all you want but until this happens expect similar results imv.
now that the resources invested are sufficient, doesn't it become a proxy on coaching anyway? Did they bring in the right OL coach, system, veterans, draft picks to get the results they need?
"generational pick."
I also have high hopes for both Robinson and Ezeudu. But those are just that. TBA.
Quote:
Past discussions seemed heavily directed at the HC and QB but the biggest problem for a decade is the Giants inability to compete/win along the lines.
"Modernize" the offense all you want but until this happens expect similar results imv.
now that the resources invested are sufficient, doesn't it become a proxy on coaching anyway? Did they bring in the right OL coach, system, veterans, draft picks to get the results they need?
Absolutely it is a very big component. Just like good food needs good ingredients coaches and systems need the players
Looking at Dallas's OL in particular and Philly's lines on both sides have not been favorable to the Giants imv.
Well said.
Throw in we have greatly improved what what played last year Center, RG, and RT. We added a monster pass rusher. We got rid of a TE who not only dropped some easy important passes, but lead us to turnovers on tipped balls off his hands. Our backup QB has actually had good success in this league. Our biggest loss from last year Bradberry didn't play up to his usual standards.
So if by keeping pace you mean will be better? I think again if we don't get devastated by injuries we will be greatly improved. I think 7-8 wins is a tremendous start to what we are doing. Will the rest of the NFC east improve 3-4 games next year? Doubtful
Got to keep generating web clicks. grin. I'll be paying close attention to individual players and the chemistry on the field, how the coaches gameplan and perform in real-time, etc. Small tangible signs of progress and chemistry, going to hear those words a lot from me. Want to see players and coaches who get it, who are able to think, adjust, roll with the punches, establish momentum of growth and development, etc. 2023 draft is also going to be vital to the future of NYG to add to the foundation.
Defense, its gonna be fun with the edge pass rushers, but CBs....so it might be a trade off with QBs having less time to throw....maybe they wont expose the somewhat weak secondary
Defense, its gonna be fun with the edge pass rushers, but CBs....so it might be a trade off with QBs having less time to throw....maybe they wont expose the somewhat weak secondary
And I would suggest that what happened in those final 6 games is almost totally irrelevant to where the Giants are today. Assume that DJ is okay and with Taylor as a solid back up I think you can make the case that you are really starting as a 6-7 wins-type team. And that was against one of the tougher schedules in the league last year, with a patch-work offensive line, your skill positions decimated by injuries and no pass rush.
I expect one group that will be very disappointed if the Giants don't at least get over .500 this year are the Giants themselves at least barring another series of catastrophic injuries. I mean, again barring a run of injuries, the OL has to be better, the skill guys like Golladay, Toney and Saquon appear to be significantly healthier than they were at any time last year, and the addition of Thibo and Martindale should give the pass rush a boost. You still worry about both the secondary and the overall depth which is pretty thin, but at least on paper there is absolutely no reason, again at least barring a run of injuries at a critical position or two that the Giants should be able to at least compete for a wild-card in what looks to be a pretty watered down NFC right now.
Again, the players still have to make plays and so much rests on the performance and health of DJ, but to me, and I am an eternal optimist, this has all the feel of a potential 1984 type season. But that's why we play the games!
Quote:
all we heard about is how we need to blow it up and start over, we finally get that and everyone wants to jump right into are we ready to compete. We have a brand new coaching staff who has purged the cap of over priced veterans and done what they could but on a shoe string budget and we likely don't even have our QB yet. We all know this, but we are still asking such questions? LOL
Got to keep generating web clicks. grin. I'll be paying close attention to individual players and the chemistry on the field, how the coaches gameplan and perform in real-time, etc. Small tangible signs of progress and chemistry, going to hear those words a lot from me. Want to see players and coaches who get it, who are able to think, adjust, roll with the punches, establish momentum of growth and development, etc. 2023 draft is also going to be vital to the future of NYG to add to the foundation.
Defense, its gonna be fun with the edge pass rushers, but CBs....so it might be a trade off with QBs having less time to throw....maybe they wont expose the somewhat weak secondary
OL needs an LG to emerge, C is a one year stop-gap, and if they're smart they're grooming a RG behind Glowinski. No resting on laurels, football doesn't work well that way.
1) bring front office (decision makers) into current century and add an element of a cohesive management group including coaches
2) bring a modern offense (one that doesn't set playmakers up for failure)
3) at long last, construct an NFL caliber OL
4) with personnel and scheme, advance the defense to be more attack oriented rather than a bend and then inevitably break approach
5) be fiscally responsible
I like what they did in all of these areas. As currently constructed, this is not a contender (far from it), but I finally like the foundation that has been put into place.
1) bring front office (decision makers) into current century and add an element of a cohesive management group including coaches
2) bring a modern offense (one that doesn't set playmakers up for failure)
3) at long last, construct an NFL caliber OL
4) with personnel and scheme, advance the defense to be more attack oriented rather than a bend and then inevitably break approach
5) be fiscally responsible
I like what they did in all of these areas. As currently constructed, this is not a contender (far from it), but I finally like the foundation that has been put into place.
Good post and on target.
Except those teams had a QB on the roster.
the three areas I see as being on watch are:
TE corps - took a missed blessing hit with loss of Engram, Rudolph, and Smith -- addition of Seals Jones, Akins Bellinger -- we hope their blocking is improved and their ability to stay on the on the field and catch is more reliable --
WR corps -- Golladay, Shepard, Toney, Robinson - are they going to be able to stay on the field and produce
RB corps -- Barkley, Breida, Brightwell, someone else -- can they stay on the field and produce with a more open offense
I think we know what we have in Daniel Jones -- He's a guy that can make plays -- has moments where he looks poised and sharp -- but a third of the time is going to make a head scratcher and takes too many risks with his body
so the questions that really have to answered are:
Does this improved Oline avail Jones of the opportunities to take less risk and make more plays where he is going to his skill players?
Do the 1 & 2 players of the above position groups on average - stay on the field more - increase the opportunities for primary targets available for Jones to utilize?
Then there is the D scheme -- can Wink make hay with up graded front and down graded defensive backfield?
Thats a lot of ifs in my opinion.
It's gonna take time.
In order of my excitement for the improvements that have been made:
1. 21st century offensive scheme and play calling
2. Evan Neal and a professional, if unspectacular, IOL
3. Kayvon Thibodeau
4. Jeff Ezeudu
17. Elerson Smith - I think he is going to play a real role this year and will be someone we are excited about next offseason.
Yes I know about Simms' long journey to established QB1. The point is, QB is obviously still up in the air in 2022, and it's highly likely the current QB isn't about to ascend to "long term solution" viability at the conclusion of 2022. Keep building the team and when the QB presents himself, be in a position to do whatever it takes to bring him in the fold. For all we know, that opportunity might be next spring.
They had no choice but to release Bradberry. Not enough cap space to keep him.
This is a total rebuild!
1) bring front office (decision makers) into current century and add an element of a cohesive management group including coaches
2) bring a modern offense (one that doesn't set playmakers up for failure)
3) at long last, construct an NFL caliber OL
4) with personnel and scheme, advance the defense to be more attack oriented rather than a bend and then inevitably break approach
5) be fiscally responsible
I like what they did in all of these areas. As currently constructed, this is not a contender (far from it), but I finally like the foundation that has been put into place.
Absolutely Correct!
I would add:
6) Find out this year if Daniel Jones will be the quarterback going forward.
IMO there is no such thing as “blow it up”. There is no rebuild. Just a continual build. The roster turns over 20-30% every year. That is the nfl. There are plenty of core players that predate the current regime.
In terms of ready to compete depends on what you mean. For the Super Bowl? No. For the division and or a playoff spot? They better be thinking that way. The nfl is built for that too. Eagles made the playoffs last year and Washington won the division the year before. So if they are not competing for a playoff spot in December we have the wrong people again
This purge you speak of…2 dubious cuts in the secondary and then?
And another thing, there will be no patience from anyone once the season starts. Of course winning and losing matters. That’s the point.
Otherwise no...
We've made some improvements, but still having gap holes.
QB: Oft injured, underperforming, Jones.
RB: Oft injured Barkley and journeymen.
WR: Golladay, Toney, and Robinson. Golladay produced nothing his first year. Toney is injured a lot, and Robinson is a rookie. The rest are journeymen.
TE: Two journeymen and a fourth round rookie.
OL: Stop gap veterans on the interior and a rookie at RT.
CB: Lots of questions, especially whether Robinson can be a good starter.
S: More questions, and also a lack of bodies.
As others have said, this is a two or three year rebuild. Anything can happen in today's NFL, but I think realistically we won't compete for a playoff spot until 2024.
We need a quality qb to be competitive.
We don't have one.
I am excited by the draft and the quantity of holes I think they may have plugged.
This offseason is a good start for a rebuild that will last into next year.
The Giants need a quality QB to be competitive with the NFC East and the rest of the league.
If they truly get their salary cap under control the Jints might be able to compete in FA for a good QB next off season
I’d take that in a heartbeat and I’m sure most everyone here would too.
Big opportunity for the Giants if they do things right.
2022: 5-12ish
2023: Turn over the rest of Gettleman's roster, draft a QB, win 6-9 games with the rookie QB
2024: Compete for a playoff spot
That's if everything goes right, there are no key injuries, etc. If we hit a home run with the rookie QB pick maybe that gets moved up a year.
But I think we've got to give these guys one mulligan year just to get rid of Gettleman's garbage and install a framework for future growth (which we're seeing with all the front office turnover).
Meaning that they didn't lose ground and possible gained on at the least Wash/Dallas.
But, the Giants have to do far more than keep pace with the middling NFCE.
Dallas got better. But was already deeply rooted with talent.
Washington got even better.
Philly significantly improved.
The Giants are going to try to find themselves and their identity, so I don’t think they are in a keep pace mode as much as a just pacing mode.
They are closer to Philly, then Washington, than to Dallas.
Personally, I fall in line with Colin@gbn. If the Giants can stay healthy and Jones remains upright, I think this team can approach .500 with an coaching staff that knows what they are doing.