In 2019, Daniel Jones had five games with 300+ passing yards. His three standout games against the Lions, Jets and Redskins, he had 982 passing yards 13 TDs and 0 INTs.
If you pro-rate his rookie year stats from 12 starts over 17 games, he'd post up 4,288 passing yards with 34 TDs and 17 INTs
With an improved roster around him this year, if Daniel Jones posts similar numbers to his rookie season where he showed a lot of flashes, what would you do heading into 2023 season?
Also, it is disingenuous to prorate his rookie season as if he didn't miss those games with injury. Jones has missed multiple games with injury every year, and in each instance he rushed to get back on the field before he was healthy and looked like dog shit the next game or two.
The missed time and ineffectiveness due to injury can't be discounted or waved away, it's part of who he is
TB/WAS/NYJ/DET - 15 TD passes, 2 TD runs, 4 TOs (all fumbles)
Other 8 starts - 9 TDs, 19 TOs (12 INTs, 7 FL)
The WAS game was such a joke I can't believe people still use it in defense of Jones. Their entire secondary was out, they were signing guys off the street that week because they were done with Josh Norman and didn't want to play him. Kerrigan was on IR. There are training camp scrimmages that are more competitive.
And now he's a lame duck to boot. Just a wasted year at QB.
We haven’t been non competitve because OF Jones. We have Been non competitve because of roster and coaching staff.
If you can’t see it, you don’t want to see it.
I supported moving on from Jones which you know. You don’t ever seem to recognize that since I don’t eviscerate him daily, but that’s the truth. The second they didn’t draft a QB I moved on. Talking about the same things over and over again is absolutely pointless, but here you are.
I just skimmed through it. Looks a lot like this conversation. I was surprised I didn't post in that thread. I wouldn't say we are wasting QB reps this year. I think it's fair to allow the new regime a chance at evaluating a player whom they need to make a major decision on next spring. Let them figure out what we all know here. This team is not going to be competing for much this year anyway, regardless who is at QB. I'm pretty confident Jones won't be here next year (neither will Barkley), ridding ourselves of most of the DG stink, and we'll have a first round rookie QB to look forward to evaluating in 2023.
Yes, but with TT that would be assured. Right now there's still an expectation of Jones being sprinkled with magic pixie dust and turning into a decent QB.
Basically the outcome is the same, but the expectations/mood would be different with TT over DJ.
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It's the same fantasy with Jones this year. Nothing has changed. Want to talk about jumping the shark...
I supported moving on from Jones which you know. You don’t ever seem to recognize that since I don’t eviscerate him daily, but that’s the truth. The second they didn’t draft a QB I moved on. Talking about the same things over and over again is absolutely pointless, but here you are.
As are you. Odd.
It's idiotic.
He's exactly like Phil Simms, just without the talent, poise, leadership and blonde hair.
Jones has proven the one pass he can make is the deep ball. Plus he has the ability to run the ball. Those two areas are where I’m sure Daboll is going to concentrate on.
D Jones accurate deep ball throwing has to be the biggest BBi myth there ever was. For this prolific deep ball passer -- he sure doesn't seem to throw deep much. Do you really think that is what Shoen and Daboll have in mind for Jones? They overdraft a gadget in round 2 because D Jones is going deep?
Or let's look at an offense that actually relies on deep routes ; TB Bucs. In my imagination when Brady announced his retirement I can see Bruce Arians first reaction is " Get the Giants on the phone -- we want Daniel Jones!" I don't think that happened.
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Jones has proven the one pass he can make is the deep ball. Plus he has the ability to run the ball. Those two areas are where I’m sure Daboll is going to concentrate on.
D Jones accurate deep ball throwing has to be the biggest BBi myth there ever was. For this prolific deep ball passer -- he sure doesn't seem to throw deep much. Do you really think that is what Shoen and Daboll have in mind for Jones? They overdraft a gadget in round 2 because D Jones is going deep?
Or let's look at an offense that actually relies on deep routes ; TB Bucs. In my imagination when Brady announced his retirement I can see Bruce Arians first reaction is " Get the Giants on the phone -- we want Daniel Jones!" I don't think that happened.
It’s not a myth. It’s supported by actual facts. The reason why he didn’t throw it could be a number of things: poor play calling, poor OL play, poor route concepts - all of which are true being that our OL was awful and the people calling plays are still unemployed.
And they have WRs who can go deep. Golladay, Slayton and to an extent Toney all have shown the capabilities of going deep - why draft another WR to do the same thing? Robinson was drafted for a different skill set.
He needs to play like a Top 10 QB this season. That's the starting point.
For as bad as Jones is - there was a massive difference when Glennon and Fromm started.
If Jones doesn’t play well this year, he can still elevate the play of others around him better than what we have seen or options available.
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Jones has proven the one pass he can make is the deep ball. Plus he has the ability to run the ball. Those two areas are where I’m sure Daboll is going to concentrate on.
D Jones accurate deep ball throwing has to be the biggest BBi myth there ever was. For this prolific deep ball passer -- he sure doesn't seem to throw deep much. Do you really think that is what Shoen and Daboll have in mind for Jones? They overdraft a gadget in round 2 because D Jones is going deep?
Or let's look at an offense that actually relies on deep routes ; TB Bucs. In my imagination when Brady announced his retirement I can see Bruce Arians first reaction is " Get the Giants on the phone -- we want Daniel Jones!" I don't think that happened.
He was the best deep passer in 2020. Every stat backs it up. So why would Daboll ignore this?
Jones number 1 in passes over 20 yards - ( New Window )
For as bad as Jones is - there was a massive difference when Glennon and Fromm started.
If Jones doesn’t play well this year, he can still elevate the play of others around him better than what we have seen or options available.
How do you know the difference wassn't that Garrett got fired and Judge showed himself to be not really an NFL coach?
And also how do you know it wasn't just a team let down? A good clue was the Jones neck injury. They decided to let Jones take a vacation because they knew something was wrong with the team. I don't believe for a second anything was really that wrong with Jones that he had to miss that many games.
Also it is kind of weird that Jones get a pass for Rams game because it was the week after he suffered a concussion -- which was entirely his bad decision making -- when Glennon suffered one and played through one in the Miami game and the week after and still gets rated porly (which probably is welp desrved anyway).
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Schoen and Daboll are evaluating the entire team this year, just not the QB position. So instead of starting the Jake Fromms or Mike Glennons of the world, he is starting Jones (or Taylor) cause it gives them the best opportunity to evaluate other players on offense. This rookie QB excited no one in the NFL other than a few posters on BBI. So that wasn’t an option.
For as bad as Jones is - there was a massive difference when Glennon and Fromm started.
If Jones doesn’t play well this year, he can still elevate the play of others around him better than what we have seen or options available.
How do you know the difference wassn't that Garrett got fired and Judge showed himself to be not really an NFL coach?
And also how do you know it wasn't just a team let down? A good clue was the Jones neck injury. They decided to let Jones take a vacation because they knew something was wrong with the team. I don't believe for a second anything was really that wrong with Jones that he had to miss that many games.
Also it is kind of weird that Jones get a pass for Rams game because it was the week after he suffered a concussion -- which was entirely his bad decision making -- when Glennon suffered one and played through one in the Miami game and the week after and still gets rated porly (which probably is welp desrved anyway).
1. If anyone gave Jones a pass after the rams game, it’s a very small minority. Minuscule even.
2. You really think Mike Glennon and Jake Fromm sucked because Garrett wasn’t there?
All 3 have one thing in common: no one wants them in the NFL.
This is going to be a year of wasted snaps at the QB position.
You will know more about Jones after this year. There were no good quarterbacks to chose from for a team that has many other needs.
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In comment 15711136 GNewGiants said:
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Schoen and Daboll are evaluating the entire team this year, just not the QB position. So instead of starting the Jake Fromms or Mike Glennons of the world, he is starting Jones (or Taylor) cause it gives them the best opportunity to evaluate other players on offense. This rookie QB excited no one in the NFL other than a few posters on BBI. So that wasn’t an option.
For as bad as Jones is - there was a massive difference when Glennon and Fromm started.
If Jones doesn’t play well this year, he can still elevate the play of others around him better than what we have seen or options available.
How do you know the difference wassn't that Garrett got fired and Judge showed himself to be not really an NFL coach?
And also how do you know it wasn't just a team let down? A good clue was the Jones neck injury. They decided to let Jones take a vacation because they knew something was wrong with the team. I don't believe for a second anything was really that wrong with Jones that he had to miss that many games.
Also it is kind of weird that Jones get a pass for Rams game because it was the week after he suffered a concussion -- which was entirely his bad decision making -- when Glennon suffered one and played through one in the Miami game and the week after and still gets rated porly (which probably is welp desrved anyway).
1. If anyone gave Jones a pass after the rams game, it’s a very small minority. Minuscule even.
2. You really think Mike Glennon and Jake Fromm sucked because Garrett wasn’t there?
All 3 have one thing in common: no one wants them in the NFL.
Yes I think Glennon partly sucked because no Garrett / no real coach and also well because he is a QB you found on scrap heap; what do you really expect? fromm is just not an NFl qb.
My point is really the other way around. You are rating Jones too high for outplaying Glennon and Fromm.
If Glennon had any desirable tools - someone would have signed him
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Jones has proven the one pass he can make is the deep ball. Plus he has the ability to run the ball. Those two areas are where I’m sure Daboll is going to concentrate on.
D Jones accurate deep ball throwing has to be the biggest BBi myth there ever was. For this prolific deep ball passer -- he sure doesn't seem to throw deep much. Do you really think that is what Shoen and Daboll have in mind for Jones? They overdraft a gadget in round 2 because D Jones is going deep?
Or let's look at an offense that actually relies on deep routes ; TB Bucs. In my imagination when Brady announced his retirement I can see Bruce Arians first reaction is " Get the Giants on the phone -- we want Daniel Jones!" I don't think that happened.
He was the best deep passer in 2020. Every stat backs it up. So why would Daboll ignore this? Jones number 1 in passes over 20 yards - ( New Window )
How was he last year in the games he played? Also, I'd like to see how many deep shots Rodgers and Mahomes threw in 2020 compared to Jones's total.
How was he last year in the games he played? Also, I'd like to see how many deep shots Rodgers and Mahomes threw in 2020 compared to Jones's total.
I read Jones threw one of the fewest in 2020 and even less then in 2021. But keep in mind his best WR in 2020 was Slayton. But when Jones threw it, he threw it well.
If I hit a target 3 out of 5 times, I'm not "better" than someone who hits a target 8 out of 20 just because the percentage is better. You are not meant to assume that you would hit at the same rate with more chances. That's not how it works.
If I hit a target 3 out of 5 times, I'm not "better" than someone who hits a target 8 out of 20 just because the percentage is better. You are not meant to assume that you would hit at the same rate with more chances. That's not how it works.
You can only calculate what a person does. And people have used QBR as the best method. Who knows - maybe he does better? Maybe he does worse? But when he did throw them - he threw them well. I don’t know how that’s debatable?
No one's debating that part of it. If that was all the conversation, I dont think anyone would take issue with it. We're disputing the relevance of the stat.
That stat gets deployed by the internet as if it's definitive of anything. It's misleading if you use it like that article does, specifically mentioning him in line with Aaron Rodgers but not explaining
the significant gap in attempts. A fan sees that and fills in the blanks left by the author with "wow, he must be really good at that!"
Stats are fine and good, but when they're gimmicked up with a purpose by design, or they're delivered by someone who doesn't firmly understand how stats become relevant data, it's a source of misinformation like a game of Telephone. "Jones did pretty well in this area on limited tries" becomes "actually he was the NFL's best deep passer on throws over 20 yards, better than Rodgers, Mahomes, and Brady!".
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But when he did throw them - he threw them well. I don’t know how that’s debatable?
No one's debating that part of it. If that was all the conversation, I dont think anyone would take issue with it. We're disputing the relevance of the stat.
That stat gets deployed by the internet as if it's definitive of anything. It's misleading if you use it like that article does, specifically mentioning him in line with Aaron Rodgers but not explaining
the significant gap in attempts. A fan sees that and fills in the blanks left by the author with "wow, he must be really good at that!"
Stats are fine and good, but when they're gimmicked up with a purpose by design, or they're delivered by someone who doesn't firmly understand how stats become relevant data, it's a source of misinformation like a game of Telephone. "Jones did pretty well in this area on limited tries" becomes "actually he was the NFL's best deep passer on throws over 20 yards, better than Rodgers, Mahomes, and Brady!".
Valid points. I should have better expressed that Jones did actually do well in that area. But I do agree with your premise 100%.
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He's better than Fromm, but still non-competitive.
And now he's a lame duck to boot. Just a wasted year at QB.
We haven’t been non competitve because OF Jones. We have Been non competitve because of roster and coaching staff.
If you can’t see it, you don’t want to see it.
So Glennon sucks well because he just sucks and no NFL team wants him. But Jones is noncompetitive because of the coach situation and roster.
Got it.
What NFL team would want Jones? At the very least Glennon got his chance showed you what he was in is out of the league with fewer starts than Jones has had. So then wtf is Jones doing starting again? Also if Gruden didn't have his fall from grace, I would think Glennon might have a place as 2nd or 3 rd string QB wherever he would be coaching.
No offense taken whatsoever. I understand and agree with your point. Listen it’s tough to find positives on Jones, I just think he throws a pretty good deep ball and hope Daboll institutes it more.
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the reality is the exact same with Jones or Taylor starting - unless they play great we will be moving onto another prospect in 2023.
Yes, but with TT that would be assured. Right now there's still an expectation of Jones being sprinkled with magic pixie dust and turning into a decent QB.
Basically the outcome is the same, but the expectations/mood would be different with TT over DJ.
Don't compare what fans say with what the Giants will do. Just because a handful of BBIers will think there's room for Jones to get better after 2022 doesn't mean the Giants will.
This cross over between fan group think vs. how a team is run is really bizarre to me. I state this often but I don't know anyone in my personal life that views sports the way a significant portion of this board does.
Why do you care if joeblow2934567 thinks Jones can be really good? It doesn't effect anything at all.
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In comment 15711080 Go Terps said:
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It's the same fantasy with Jones this year. Nothing has changed. Want to talk about jumping the shark...
I supported moving on from Jones which you know. You don’t ever seem to recognize that since I don’t eviscerate him daily, but that’s the truth. The second they didn’t draft a QB I moved on. Talking about the same things over and over again is absolutely pointless, but here you are.
As are you. Odd.
That's your usual post, by the way. As soon as someone agrees with your premise, but not fully and aggressively, you don't have anything more to say to that person. You really only want to fight with people.
You'd be more inclined to respond to me if I said Jones was going to lead us to a 13-4 record this year throwing for 50 TD's and win and MVP in the process.
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In comment 15711040 UConn4523 said:
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the reality is the exact same with Jones or Taylor starting - unless they play great we will be moving onto another prospect in 2023.
Yes, but with TT that would be assured. Right now there's still an expectation of Jones being sprinkled with magic pixie dust and turning into a decent QB.
Basically the outcome is the same, but the expectations/mood would be different with TT over DJ.
Don't compare what fans say with what the Giants will do. Just because a handful of BBIers will think there's room for Jones to get better after 2022 doesn't mean the Giants will.
This cross over between fan group think vs. how a team is run is really bizarre to me. I state this often but I don't know anyone in my personal life that views sports the way a significant portion of this board does.
Why do you care if joeblow2934567 thinks Jones can be really good? It doesn't effect anything at all.
Because 1.) joeblow2934567 goes around calling people who don't agree that Jones can be great miserable assholes, bad fans, etc, etc.
2.) John Mara thinks too much like joeblow2934567
On the contrary, I think it is a great lesson. As Simms proved, all QBs who struggle in their first few years go on to be Super Bowl champions. It's pretty much math.
If the Raiders hadn't quit on Jamarcus Russel he would be in the Hall of Fame today.
#themoreyouknow
Sorry, i missed the list of giants players/staff that aren't supposed to be talked about on the giants forums.
... all of the ones by next year's end. I'm sure he'll get to that level.
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Great now John Mara is infiltrated into a Daniel Jones thread.
Sorry, i missed the list of giants players/staff that aren't supposed to be talked about on the giants forums.
I think this off-season proved that Mara’s power isn’t what BBI claims it is.
There’s a ton of middle ground here. For some reason, many don’t want to entertain that as a discussion point.
"Don't tell me what a player can't do..."
I ran with that shit and hung myself with it. I figured Golloday + Deep Ball accurate Jones.
I made a giant fallacious mistake.
SAMPLE SIZE.
Most people don't care, I fucking hate myself over it.
Golloday played over 60% of the snaps. You have to throw it to him covered. Jones has no balls at all. Never going to be the guys to calm the storm when the Noreaster hits.
He is not the guy and you know it. You all just hate admitting Terps is right about Jones too.
Is what it is.
A stat like QBR attempts to aggregate almost all of the situations you described.
Not a perfect measurement, but QBR is one of the most interesting attempts to capture a QB's performance based on the flow of the game.
QBR discussion - ( New Window )
These stats do not account for the talent around the QB and the impact on them. They don't account for average down and distance on 2nd/3rd down which the Giants have been dismal at for a decade. 2nd/3rd down and 9/10 yards is far different 2nd/3rd down and 3/4 yards.
If they argument is there are QB's who have outstanding stats without a running game than my argument is they probably have a gifted group of skills guys and probably at least one option in the upper tier.
I am not paying attention to those who focus on stats until they paint a very clear picture of the QB's surrounding talent and circumstances.
This matters not only at the QB position but every position that is a distributor of the ball in sports imv.
QBR does try to account for the QB and the surrounding talent.
For example, if the OL is consistently not providing adequate protection in the view of the two reviewers assigned, they will not ding that QB as much as the QB who has adequate time. That's clearly taking into account the talent of the OL.
If the receivers are dropping balls and not getting separation, the analysis will identify that, too.
Further, QBR looks at the outcome of every down and distance. That's the differentiator between the stat and every other stat.
Again, it's not a perfect measurement, but it's ostensibly the only measurement that doesn't take the final box score numbers and derive a conclusion off of that.
There will always be an art and science to evaluating the performance of every NFL position. But what's interesting to me is that those QBs who look the part - art - year after year after year typically have the best statistical output.
To me, this is the problem with Jones. More often than not, he doesn't look the part and that is reflected in his stats.
Look, if Jones has an "average OL" and Barkley returns to form along with the wideouts staying healthy he WILL put up good numbers. But health to date?
And I'm guessing that the debate will continue.