In 2019, Daniel Jones had five games with 300+ passing yards. His three standout games against the Lions, Jets and Redskins, he had 982 passing yards 13 TDs and 0 INTs.
If you pro-rate his rookie year stats from 12 starts over 17 games, he'd post up 4,288 passing yards with 34 TDs and 17 INTs
With an improved roster around him this year, if Daniel Jones posts similar numbers to his rookie season where he showed a lot of flashes, what would you do heading into 2023 season?
There are three types of QBs in the NFL:
Type 1. A guy you're confident can be a big reason you win the Super Bowl. You're happy to pay him $30M+ a year.
Type 2. A young guy (year 1 or 2) you're hoping becomes a Type 1.
Type 3. Everybody else.
Fork in the road time for Jones. He has to be awesome this year to elevate to Type 1. The excuses and rationalizations have to end.
Also, it is disingenuous to prorate his rookie season as if he didn't miss those games with injury. Jones has missed multiple games with injury every year, and in each instance he rushed to get back on the field before he was healthy and looked like dog shit the next game or two.
The missed time and ineffectiveness due to injury can't be discounted or waved away, it's part of who he is
The Giants can't evaluate Daniel Jones on a single year of his four year career, especially if this year is an outlier. The only way I offer him a long term deal after this year is if he is consistently excellent week to week all year and avoids injuries. Then we can suggest he has turned a corner. A nice uptick in his stats should not induce the Giants to overpay for a QB whose career to date has been mediocre.
Yeah, everyone just assumes that a good season = big payday but the tag is there, and so is a longer term extension without the big guaranteed money (see Jimmy Garoppolo's contract structure, but likely less, IMO).
The Giants hold all the cards with Jones no matter what he does in 2022. He can throw 50 TD's and at the very least we can make him duplicate that before committing to him.
More importantly, he needs to show everyone he can be relied upon to start 17 games. You can't allocate big $$ to a part time QB.
Especially if the Giants improve enough to not have a Top 10 draft pick in 2023 and select one of the top prospects.
I look at Jones' rookie season not as a goal, because that QB isn't a franchise guy. His rookie season is the benchmark for reason to be optimistic.
I think he has to top the prorated rookie season while getting the fumbles down to 2021 levels. So with that many turnovers, I wouldn't keep him.
Yep, it s really not that complicated
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and then if he does it again, long term extension
Yeah, everyone just assumes that a good season = big payday but the tag is there, and so is a longer term extension without the big guaranteed money (see Jimmy Garoppolo's contract structure, but likely less, IMO).
The Giants hold all the cards with Jones no matter what he does in 2022. He can throw 50 TD's and at the very least we can make him duplicate that before committing to him.
Jones Passer Rating: 87.7
NFL Avg. Passer Rating: 90.4
Jones A/YA: 6.46
NFL Avg. A/YA: 7.1
# of games where Jones exceeded NFL Avg. Passer Rating: 4
# of games where Jones exceeded NFL Avg. A/YA: 4
Jones's entire reputation is basically built on 4 games in 2019. Those 4 games were against:
Tampa: 29th ranked defense
Detroit: 26th ranked defense
Jets: 16th ranked defense
Washington: 27th ranked defense, with an interim coach in week 16
The game log speaks for itself.
So don't open the thread.
in fairness, the judge/garrett/kitchens offense was the worst thing anyone had seen in a long time so to some extent i understand the jones optimists.
my bigger concern, other than the continued lack of pocket presence, is that he is a lock to miss games with some injury every year. simply put, he is injury prone, and his injuries have all resulted from being careless while running the ball.
it is hard to see his brain improving in this regard. he really seems to lack basic football instincts.
BBI Corner Forum is a New York Giants Discussion Board. No matter how many times you're tired of reading Daniel Jones threads, you're proposal is to discontinue conversations about the team's Starting QB for a 4 month period?
I think this is more of your issue and if you see Daniel Jones in the Thread Title, just skip it and move onto the next thread.
I haven't see anything that tells me he is "The Guy". I saw a lot of play over the last few years that left me feeling he is an average QB with average skills.
But it is hard to find those guys like Brady, Rodgers, Brees, etc. We could be searching for decades.
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It was reason for optimism and provided a certain expectation for improvement. He not only didn't improve, but regressed. His rookie year replicated in year 4 is not a reason to commit money or time.
in fairness, the judge/garrett/kitchens offense was the worst thing anyone had seen in a long time so to some extent i understand the jones optimists.
my bigger concern, other than the continued lack of pocket presence, is that he is a lock to miss games with some injury every year. simply put, he is injury prone, and his injuries have all resulted from being careless while running the ball.
it is hard to see his brain improving in this regard. he really seems to lack basic football instincts.
Even considering the offensive system, coaching, and personnel deficiencies, he leaves a lot to be desired after 3 years. A couple of flashes have been overshadowed by poor pocket awareness and presence, inability to read defenses, pre-snap, in ability to read defenses with the ball, and his one big plus as a rookie seems to have been diminished (that would be nice deep balls). Throw in injuries and bad decision making leading to some injuries, and I just think there are too many reasons for us to not go with him. Let someone else pay him and if he improves, good for him and them.
The new GM paid a backup QB he knows pretty well at the top of that pay scale to have him under contract for 2023. That's not a coincidence IMO. That's setting up for a rookie to learn how to be a professional QB while he waits his turn. I think that's plan A.
I think plan B is a 2nd contract for Jones if he makes the Giants an offer they can't refuse by turning into a top 10 QB. That seems like a long shot.
1) He signs a modest 2 year extension
2) We go a different direction at QB
I wouldn't want him on the franchise tag.
That said, what do the Giants do? Ownership has mostly remained out of the way but its no secret Mara likes Jones.
We should know better than to plan Daniel Jones coming out party in the preseason, but a revamped offensive line anchored by Thomas + Wandale + Daboll Kafka? I fully expect him to be better than the last two years. If he's not, it's a no brainer what to do next offseason.
Still not convinced, the Redskins let Cousins walk in 2018.
I got sick of seeing Dunking Donuts on every corner in town, so naturally I started going into everyone and screaming about how they should be closed because who needs that many Dunkin Donuts?
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In comment 15710312 Ben in Tampa said:
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and then if he does it again, long term extension
Yeah, everyone just assumes that a good season = big payday but the tag is there, and so is a longer term extension without the big guaranteed money (see Jimmy Garoppolo's contract structure, but likely less, IMO).
The Giants hold all the cards with Jones no matter what he does in 2022. He can throw 50 TD's and at the very least we can make him duplicate that before committing to him.
Not really. The franchise tag will be over $30M. That's guaranteed and a big cap committment.
Yes really. If he’s good enough this year to warrant extension talks then the Tag is a fine fallback option and bargaining chip. If he’s mediocre he won’t command a big contract.
I’m fairly certain if he plays 17 games and only totals 25 scores, we won’t want him back at all, fans or the staff. In which case the Tag isn’t even a consideration.
Still not convinced, the Redskins let Cousins walk in 2018.
No, mainly because Kirk never struggled to score for 2 full years so there was always upside to chase, he just didn’t unlock it in Washington for a number of reasons.
I don’t see any comps with Jones. Add in that our GM wasn’t true one who picked him and I just don’t see how he’s our 2023 QB outside of some insanely productive season to warrant getting tagged.
No to all of the above. Why are we still wasting time? These were all questions we had going into 2020 ... 2021.
Clutch plays? He does the complete opposite of that.
The only question that should be asked here is ...
Why are we asking questions? You should know the type of QB he is by now. You shouldn't have to watch another season of him to figure him out.
He had .66 fumbles a game last year and lost one every 5.5 games. In 2020 he had .7 fumbles a game and lost one every 4.7 games.
Last year he had 7 INTs and 7 fumbles (2 lost) in 11 games for 9 turnovers. Three of the INTs and 2 fumbles (one lost) were in the Rams game, a week after he went into the concussion protocol. That's 5 out of the 14 total INTs and fumbles in a game he probably shouldn't have played in.
In the other 10 games he had a total of 4 INTs and 5 fumbles (1 lost). That's five turnovers in 10 games. Ignore the post-concussion game and it translates to 6 or 7 INTs and 7 or 8 fumbles (impossible to know how many would be lost) in 17 games. Include the Rams game and it's 11 INTs and 11 fumbles in 17 games. He had 2 turnovers in only one game (TB) other than the Rams game last year.
The unknown part of the equation is how the new offensive scheme (and line) will effect these numbers.
Did we know what type of QB Phil Simms was heading into the 1984 season? Where Simms only won 14 games as the starter and only had 39 TDs in that span from 1979 to 1983.
Who knows if Daniel Jones will perform or not this year. Giants were one of the worst teams in the NFL from 2019 to 2021, so it's tough to say it was all on Jones's shoulders to lift up a team that bad.
Although I do believe Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll have made enough improvements this year, that we can finally get a good sample size if the kid can play or not.
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Why are we asking questions? You should know the type of QB he is by now. You shouldn't have to watch another season of him to figure him out.
Did we know what type of QB Phil Simms was heading into the 1984 season? Where Simms only won 14 games as the starter and only had 39 TDs in that span from 1979 to 1983.
Who knows if Daniel Jones will perform or not this year. Giants were one of the worst teams in the NFL from 2019 to 2021, so it's tough to say it was all on Jones's shoulders to lift up a team that bad.
Although I do believe Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll have made enough improvements this year, that we can finally get a good sample size if the kid can play or not.
Football just isn't set up for a QB to have Phil Simms' development timeline anymore.
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In comment 15710462 Route 9 said:
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Why are we asking questions? You should know the type of QB he is by now. You shouldn't have to watch another season of him to figure him out.
Did we know what type of QB Phil Simms was heading into the 1984 season? Where Simms only won 14 games as the starter and only had 39 TDs in that span from 1979 to 1983.
Who knows if Daniel Jones will perform or not this year. Giants were one of the worst teams in the NFL from 2019 to 2021, so it's tough to say it was all on Jones's shoulders to lift up a team that bad.
Although I do believe Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll have made enough improvements this year, that we can finally get a good sample size if the kid can play or not.
Football just isn't set up for a QB to have Phil Simms' development timeline anymore.
Being that he played with a worse offensive line.
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-qb-fumbles-2019
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-qb-fumbles-2020
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-qb-fumbles-2021
Of course he has to get better. To me its not the end all.
If he post 4,000 yards with 35 TD and 10INT with 10 fumbles and 4 lost.. he is getting a contract.
Being that he played with a worse offensive line.
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-qb-fumbles-2019
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-qb-fumbles-2020
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-qb-fumbles-2021
Of course he has to get better. To me its not the end all.
If he post 4,000 yards with 35 TD and 10INT with 10 fumbles and 4 lost.. he is getting a contract.
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In comment 15710462 Route 9 said:
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Why are we asking questions? You should know the type of QB he is by now. You shouldn't have to watch another season of him to figure him out.
Did we know what type of QB Phil Simms was heading into the 1984 season? Where Simms only won 14 games as the starter and only had 39 TDs in that span from 1979 to 1983.
Who knows if Daniel Jones will perform or not this year. Giants were one of the worst teams in the NFL from 2019 to 2021, so it's tough to say it was all on Jones's shoulders to lift up a team that bad.
Although I do believe Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll have made enough improvements this year, that we can finally get a good sample size if the kid can play or not.
Football just isn't set up for a QB to have Phil Simms' development timeline anymore.
I'm more so commenting that after 3 years, "You should know what type of QB Daniel Jones is" and not even being open to the possibility that he could improve behind a better coaching staff and O-line.
Phil Simms was used as the example of someone who didn't break out till 5 years into his career.
Has he shown more improvement in regards to pocket awareness?
How has he handled the progression system that Daboll used with Allen?
Yards and touchdowns are nice, but those things are going to be key in order to answer that question.
-4th QTR play. Lots of games come down to this QTR and does he step up here and make big plays here.
-Learns to play to the next down when primary reads are not available. Check down, throw it away, etc. Don't make the next down worse with a sack or worse forced throw that leads to a interception.
-Make a decision and let it rip as BD says. Trust your reads. This may be the biggest thing the staff is focused on. Process. Decision. Execute.
At least for those who don’t thrown around that term lightly…
-4th QTR play. Lots of games come down to this QTR and does he step up here and make big plays here.
-Learns to play to the next down when primary reads are not available. Check down, throw it away, etc. Don't make the next down worse with a sack or worse forced throw that leads to a interception.
-Make a decision and let it rip as BD says. Trust your reads. This may be the biggest thing the staff is focused on. Process. Decision. Execute.
Still not convinced, the Redskins let Cousins walk in 2018.
The Skins handled everything about that wrong and ended up not being able to resign him. Didn't help that he spend most of the first 2 years Playing behind RG III.
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fumbles is he going to have?
Depends how many times the oline let's 250lb LB's and 300lb dline hit him in the back.
Um, yeah lol.
Stats matter, context matters, but it’s really difficult to have high volume of production and it not result in more wins. Hurts had 26 TDs, lots of garbage time production and still ended up with a winning record, for example.
-4th QTR play. Lots of games come down to this QTR and does he step up here and make big plays here.
-Learns to play to the next down when primary reads are not available. Check down, throw it away, etc. Don't make the next down worse with a sack or worse forced throw that leads to a interception.
-Make a decision and let it rip as BD says. Trust your reads. This may be the biggest thing the staff is focused on. Process. Decision. Execute.
A stat like QBR attempts to aggregate almost all of the situations you described.
Not a perfect measurement, but QBR is one of the most interesting attempts to capture a QB's performance based on the flow of the game.
QBR discussion - ( New Window )
Same conversation a year ago - ( New Window )
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rarely tell the whole story. Agree with Les, you have to look at how he does in many other areas. Just a few.
-4th QTR play. Lots of games come down to this QTR and does he step up here and make big plays here.
-Learns to play to the next down when primary reads are not available. Check down, throw it away, etc. Don't make the next down worse with a sack or worse forced throw that leads to a interception.
-Make a decision and let it rip as BD says. Trust your reads. This may be the biggest thing the staff is focused on. Process. Decision. Execute.
A stat like QBR attempts to aggregate almost all of the situations you described.
Not a perfect measurement, but QBR is one of the most interesting attempts to capture a QB's performance based on the flow of the game.
QBR discussion - ( New Window )
These stats do not account for the talent around the QB and the impact on them. They don't account for average down and distance on 2nd/3rd down which the Giants have been dismal at for a decade. 2nd/3rd down and 9/10 yards is far different 2nd/3rd down and 3/4 yards.
If they argument is there are QB's who have outstanding stats without a running game than my argument is they probably have a gifted group of skills guys and probably at least one option in the upper tier.
I am not paying attention to those who focus on stats until they paint a very clear picture of the QB's surrounding talent and circumstances.
This matters not only at the QB position but every position that is a distributor of the ball in sports imv.
2. If he stinks and hasn’t improved, we will have a high pick and a lot of cap room next year. We aren’t expecting a good team this year, so who cares if he stinks? We would probably would have anyways with Taylor or any rookie QB.
This topic has been beaten to death enough. How about we just cheer for him to be amazing and if he fails to meet expectations ( a safe assumption), we can argue who to draft next year 😀
Also, I believe that one of the reasons that a rookie deal has 4 cheap years, with a cost controlled 5th, is that sometimes it takes that long to make a determination on a guy. Jones, for a myriad of reasons, is apparently one of those guys.
Also, I believe that one of the reasons that a rookie deal has 4 cheap years, with a cost controlled 5th, is that sometimes it takes that long to make a determination on a guy. Jones, for a myriad of reasons, is apparently one of those guys.
I think he ultimately falls short in some key areas but he has been handed a terrible set of circumstances in personnel and coaching. Tough to take people seriously that do not acknowledge that and how it has impacted him.
"Elevate". Its like some think he should be able to take 10 guys from BBI and produce.
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Why are we asking questions? You should know the type of QB he is by now. You shouldn't have to watch another season of him to figure him out.
Did we know what type of QB Phil Simms was heading into the 1984 season? Where Simms only won 14 games as the starter and only had 39 TDs in that span from 1979 to 1983.
Who knows if Daniel Jones will perform or not this year. Giants were one of the worst teams in the NFL from 2019 to 2021, so it's tough to say it was all on Jones's shoulders to lift up a team that bad.
Although I do believe Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll have made enough improvements this year, that we can finally get a good sample size if the kid can play or not.
What offensive schemes are going to make Jones look good? The guy can't play; he has no arm or an avg. arm at best; doesn't process fast enough; relies way too much on smashing into opponents linebackers for extra yards.
A few bubble screens will change thoise nu,nbers sure and take some of the pressure off him and put it on the gadget 2nd pick sure; but is that really what we want? I could throw some of those passes.
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In comment 15710462 Route 9 said:
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Why are we asking questions? You should know the type of QB he is by now. You shouldn't have to watch another season of him to figure him out.
Did we know what type of QB Phil Simms was heading into the 1984 season? Where Simms only won 14 games as the starter and only had 39 TDs in that span from 1979 to 1983.
Who knows if Daniel Jones will perform or not this year. Giants were one of the worst teams in the NFL from 2019 to 2021, so it's tough to say it was all on Jones's shoulders to lift up a team that bad.
Although I do believe Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll have made enough improvements this year, that we can finally get a good sample size if the kid can play or not.
What offensive schemes are going to make Jones look good? The guy can't play; he has no arm or an avg. arm at best; doesn't process fast enough; relies way too much on smashing into opponents linebackers for extra yards.
A few bubble screens will change thoise nu,nbers sure and take some of the pressure off him and put it on the gadget 2nd pick sure; but is that really what we want? I could throw some of those passes.
Jones has proven the one pass he can make is the deep ball. Plus he has the ability to run the ball. Those two areas are where I’m sure Daboll is going to concentrate on.
2. If he stinks and hasn’t improved, we will have a high pick and a lot of cap room next year. We aren’t expecting a good team this year, so who cares if he stinks? We would probably would have anyways with Taylor or any rookie QB.
This topic has been beaten to death enough. How about we just cheer for him to be amazing and if he fails to meet expectations ( a safe assumption), we can argue who to draft next year 😀
Its because people love to hear themselves talk. This is quite simple, and not at all confusing yet some make it that way.
No idea how people aren't bored of talking about it yet. Hours upon hours every day refreshing this site just to say the same things.
LOL...funniest comment on BBI today. You ask a question and answer it yourself in the same post.
Why even make the post, when you knew the answer to it?
In fact you've said it twice more in responding to this post.
2. If he stinks and hasn’t improved, we will have a high pick and a lot of cap room next year. We aren’t expecting a good team this year, so who cares if he stinks? We would probably would have anyways with Taylor or any rookie QB.
This topic has been beaten to death enough. How about we just cheer for him to be amazing and if he fails to meet expectations ( a safe assumption), we can argue who to draft next year 😀
I'd 1 million percent rather suck with Tyrod at QB instead of Jones. At least with TT starting we'd know he's just the bridge and instead of yet another "will DJ take the leap?" year.
This is going to be a year of wasted snaps at the QB position.
This is going to be a year of wasted snaps at the QB position.
Maybe we should just continue playing the Jake Fromm’s of the world. I mean - how he elevated and made his teammates last year was remarkable.
You can waste just as many snaps on young QBs as well, that doesn’t mean it’s the right answer.
Like I’ve proven before you can build a team first - then plug in the QB when one is ready or available.
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We know what Jones is. We know what Taylor is. We know they aren't good enough to win with.
This is going to be a year of wasted snaps at the QB position.
Maybe we should just continue playing the Jake Fromm’s of the world. I mean - how he elevated and made his teammates last year was remarkable.
You can waste just as many snaps on young QBs as well, that doesn’t mean it’s the right answer.
Like I’ve proven before you can build a team first - then plug in the QB when one is ready or available.
We're essentially going with Jake Fromm now.
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In comment 15711043 Go Terps said:
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We know what Jones is. We know what Taylor is. We know they aren't good enough to win with.
This is going to be a year of wasted snaps at the QB position.
Maybe we should just continue playing the Jake Fromm’s of the world. I mean - how he elevated and made his teammates last year was remarkable.
You can waste just as many snaps on young QBs as well, that doesn’t mean it’s the right answer.
Like I’ve proven before you can build a team first - then plug in the QB when one is ready or available.
We're essentially going with Jake Fromm now.
Lol. Oh wait you’re serious…
And now he's a lame duck to boot. Just a wasted year at QB.
Also, it is disingenuous to prorate his rookie season as if he didn't miss those games with injury. Jones has missed multiple games with injury every year, and in each instance he rushed to get back on the field before he was healthy and looked like dog shit the next game or two.
The missed time and ineffectiveness due to injury can't be discounted or waved away, it's part of who he is
TB/WAS/NYJ/DET - 15 TD passes, 2 TD runs, 4 TOs (all fumbles)
Other 8 starts - 9 TDs, 19 TOs (12 INTs, 7 FL)
The WAS game was such a joke I can't believe people still use it in defense of Jones. Their entire secondary was out, they were signing guys off the street that week because they were done with Josh Norman and didn't want to play him. Kerrigan was on IR. There are training camp scrimmages that are more competitive.
And now he's a lame duck to boot. Just a wasted year at QB.
We haven’t been non competitve because OF Jones. We have Been non competitve because of roster and coaching staff.
If you can’t see it, you don’t want to see it.
I supported moving on from Jones which you know. You don’t ever seem to recognize that since I don’t eviscerate him daily, but that’s the truth. The second they didn’t draft a QB I moved on. Talking about the same things over and over again is absolutely pointless, but here you are.
I just skimmed through it. Looks a lot like this conversation. I was surprised I didn't post in that thread. I wouldn't say we are wasting QB reps this year. I think it's fair to allow the new regime a chance at evaluating a player whom they need to make a major decision on next spring. Let them figure out what we all know here. This team is not going to be competing for much this year anyway, regardless who is at QB. I'm pretty confident Jones won't be here next year (neither will Barkley), ridding ourselves of most of the DG stink, and we'll have a first round rookie QB to look forward to evaluating in 2023.
Yes, but with TT that would be assured. Right now there's still an expectation of Jones being sprinkled with magic pixie dust and turning into a decent QB.
Basically the outcome is the same, but the expectations/mood would be different with TT over DJ.
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It's the same fantasy with Jones this year. Nothing has changed. Want to talk about jumping the shark...
I supported moving on from Jones which you know. You don’t ever seem to recognize that since I don’t eviscerate him daily, but that’s the truth. The second they didn’t draft a QB I moved on. Talking about the same things over and over again is absolutely pointless, but here you are.
As are you. Odd.
It's idiotic.
He's exactly like Phil Simms, just without the talent, poise, leadership and blonde hair.
Jones has proven the one pass he can make is the deep ball. Plus he has the ability to run the ball. Those two areas are where I’m sure Daboll is going to concentrate on.
D Jones accurate deep ball throwing has to be the biggest BBi myth there ever was. For this prolific deep ball passer -- he sure doesn't seem to throw deep much. Do you really think that is what Shoen and Daboll have in mind for Jones? They overdraft a gadget in round 2 because D Jones is going deep?
Or let's look at an offense that actually relies on deep routes ; TB Bucs. In my imagination when Brady announced his retirement I can see Bruce Arians first reaction is " Get the Giants on the phone -- we want Daniel Jones!" I don't think that happened.
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Jones has proven the one pass he can make is the deep ball. Plus he has the ability to run the ball. Those two areas are where I’m sure Daboll is going to concentrate on.
D Jones accurate deep ball throwing has to be the biggest BBi myth there ever was. For this prolific deep ball passer -- he sure doesn't seem to throw deep much. Do you really think that is what Shoen and Daboll have in mind for Jones? They overdraft a gadget in round 2 because D Jones is going deep?
Or let's look at an offense that actually relies on deep routes ; TB Bucs. In my imagination when Brady announced his retirement I can see Bruce Arians first reaction is " Get the Giants on the phone -- we want Daniel Jones!" I don't think that happened.
It’s not a myth. It’s supported by actual facts. The reason why he didn’t throw it could be a number of things: poor play calling, poor OL play, poor route concepts - all of which are true being that our OL was awful and the people calling plays are still unemployed.
And they have WRs who can go deep. Golladay, Slayton and to an extent Toney all have shown the capabilities of going deep - why draft another WR to do the same thing? Robinson was drafted for a different skill set.
He needs to play like a Top 10 QB this season. That's the starting point.
For as bad as Jones is - there was a massive difference when Glennon and Fromm started.
If Jones doesn’t play well this year, he can still elevate the play of others around him better than what we have seen or options available.
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Jones has proven the one pass he can make is the deep ball. Plus he has the ability to run the ball. Those two areas are where I’m sure Daboll is going to concentrate on.
D Jones accurate deep ball throwing has to be the biggest BBi myth there ever was. For this prolific deep ball passer -- he sure doesn't seem to throw deep much. Do you really think that is what Shoen and Daboll have in mind for Jones? They overdraft a gadget in round 2 because D Jones is going deep?
Or let's look at an offense that actually relies on deep routes ; TB Bucs. In my imagination when Brady announced his retirement I can see Bruce Arians first reaction is " Get the Giants on the phone -- we want Daniel Jones!" I don't think that happened.
He was the best deep passer in 2020. Every stat backs it up. So why would Daboll ignore this?
Jones number 1 in passes over 20 yards - ( New Window )
For as bad as Jones is - there was a massive difference when Glennon and Fromm started.
If Jones doesn’t play well this year, he can still elevate the play of others around him better than what we have seen or options available.
How do you know the difference wassn't that Garrett got fired and Judge showed himself to be not really an NFL coach?
And also how do you know it wasn't just a team let down? A good clue was the Jones neck injury. They decided to let Jones take a vacation because they knew something was wrong with the team. I don't believe for a second anything was really that wrong with Jones that he had to miss that many games.
Also it is kind of weird that Jones get a pass for Rams game because it was the week after he suffered a concussion -- which was entirely his bad decision making -- when Glennon suffered one and played through one in the Miami game and the week after and still gets rated porly (which probably is welp desrved anyway).
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Schoen and Daboll are evaluating the entire team this year, just not the QB position. So instead of starting the Jake Fromms or Mike Glennons of the world, he is starting Jones (or Taylor) cause it gives them the best opportunity to evaluate other players on offense. This rookie QB excited no one in the NFL other than a few posters on BBI. So that wasn’t an option.
For as bad as Jones is - there was a massive difference when Glennon and Fromm started.
If Jones doesn’t play well this year, he can still elevate the play of others around him better than what we have seen or options available.
How do you know the difference wassn't that Garrett got fired and Judge showed himself to be not really an NFL coach?
And also how do you know it wasn't just a team let down? A good clue was the Jones neck injury. They decided to let Jones take a vacation because they knew something was wrong with the team. I don't believe for a second anything was really that wrong with Jones that he had to miss that many games.
Also it is kind of weird that Jones get a pass for Rams game because it was the week after he suffered a concussion -- which was entirely his bad decision making -- when Glennon suffered one and played through one in the Miami game and the week after and still gets rated porly (which probably is welp desrved anyway).
1. If anyone gave Jones a pass after the rams game, it’s a very small minority. Minuscule even.
2. You really think Mike Glennon and Jake Fromm sucked because Garrett wasn’t there?
All 3 have one thing in common: no one wants them in the NFL.
This is going to be a year of wasted snaps at the QB position.
You will know more about Jones after this year. There were no good quarterbacks to chose from for a team that has many other needs.
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In comment 15711136 GNewGiants said:
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Schoen and Daboll are evaluating the entire team this year, just not the QB position. So instead of starting the Jake Fromms or Mike Glennons of the world, he is starting Jones (or Taylor) cause it gives them the best opportunity to evaluate other players on offense. This rookie QB excited no one in the NFL other than a few posters on BBI. So that wasn’t an option.
For as bad as Jones is - there was a massive difference when Glennon and Fromm started.
If Jones doesn’t play well this year, he can still elevate the play of others around him better than what we have seen or options available.
How do you know the difference wassn't that Garrett got fired and Judge showed himself to be not really an NFL coach?
And also how do you know it wasn't just a team let down? A good clue was the Jones neck injury. They decided to let Jones take a vacation because they knew something was wrong with the team. I don't believe for a second anything was really that wrong with Jones that he had to miss that many games.
Also it is kind of weird that Jones get a pass for Rams game because it was the week after he suffered a concussion -- which was entirely his bad decision making -- when Glennon suffered one and played through one in the Miami game and the week after and still gets rated porly (which probably is welp desrved anyway).
1. If anyone gave Jones a pass after the rams game, it’s a very small minority. Minuscule even.
2. You really think Mike Glennon and Jake Fromm sucked because Garrett wasn’t there?
All 3 have one thing in common: no one wants them in the NFL.
Yes I think Glennon partly sucked because no Garrett / no real coach and also well because he is a QB you found on scrap heap; what do you really expect? fromm is just not an NFl qb.
My point is really the other way around. You are rating Jones too high for outplaying Glennon and Fromm.
If Glennon had any desirable tools - someone would have signed him
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Jones has proven the one pass he can make is the deep ball. Plus he has the ability to run the ball. Those two areas are where I’m sure Daboll is going to concentrate on.
D Jones accurate deep ball throwing has to be the biggest BBi myth there ever was. For this prolific deep ball passer -- he sure doesn't seem to throw deep much. Do you really think that is what Shoen and Daboll have in mind for Jones? They overdraft a gadget in round 2 because D Jones is going deep?
Or let's look at an offense that actually relies on deep routes ; TB Bucs. In my imagination when Brady announced his retirement I can see Bruce Arians first reaction is " Get the Giants on the phone -- we want Daniel Jones!" I don't think that happened.
He was the best deep passer in 2020. Every stat backs it up. So why would Daboll ignore this? Jones number 1 in passes over 20 yards - ( New Window )
How was he last year in the games he played? Also, I'd like to see how many deep shots Rodgers and Mahomes threw in 2020 compared to Jones's total.
How was he last year in the games he played? Also, I'd like to see how many deep shots Rodgers and Mahomes threw in 2020 compared to Jones's total.
I read Jones threw one of the fewest in 2020 and even less then in 2021. But keep in mind his best WR in 2020 was Slayton. But when Jones threw it, he threw it well.
If I hit a target 3 out of 5 times, I'm not "better" than someone who hits a target 8 out of 20 just because the percentage is better. You are not meant to assume that you would hit at the same rate with more chances. That's not how it works.
If I hit a target 3 out of 5 times, I'm not "better" than someone who hits a target 8 out of 20 just because the percentage is better. You are not meant to assume that you would hit at the same rate with more chances. That's not how it works.
You can only calculate what a person does. And people have used QBR as the best method. Who knows - maybe he does better? Maybe he does worse? But when he did throw them - he threw them well. I don’t know how that’s debatable?
No one's debating that part of it. If that was all the conversation, I dont think anyone would take issue with it. We're disputing the relevance of the stat.
That stat gets deployed by the internet as if it's definitive of anything. It's misleading if you use it like that article does, specifically mentioning him in line with Aaron Rodgers but not explaining
the significant gap in attempts. A fan sees that and fills in the blanks left by the author with "wow, he must be really good at that!"
Stats are fine and good, but when they're gimmicked up with a purpose by design, or they're delivered by someone who doesn't firmly understand how stats become relevant data, it's a source of misinformation like a game of Telephone. "Jones did pretty well in this area on limited tries" becomes "actually he was the NFL's best deep passer on throws over 20 yards, better than Rodgers, Mahomes, and Brady!".
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But when he did throw them - he threw them well. I don’t know how that’s debatable?
No one's debating that part of it. If that was all the conversation, I dont think anyone would take issue with it. We're disputing the relevance of the stat.
That stat gets deployed by the internet as if it's definitive of anything. It's misleading if you use it like that article does, specifically mentioning him in line with Aaron Rodgers but not explaining
the significant gap in attempts. A fan sees that and fills in the blanks left by the author with "wow, he must be really good at that!"
Stats are fine and good, but when they're gimmicked up with a purpose by design, or they're delivered by someone who doesn't firmly understand how stats become relevant data, it's a source of misinformation like a game of Telephone. "Jones did pretty well in this area on limited tries" becomes "actually he was the NFL's best deep passer on throws over 20 yards, better than Rodgers, Mahomes, and Brady!".
Valid points. I should have better expressed that Jones did actually do well in that area. But I do agree with your premise 100%.
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He's better than Fromm, but still non-competitive.
And now he's a lame duck to boot. Just a wasted year at QB.
We haven’t been non competitve because OF Jones. We have Been non competitve because of roster and coaching staff.
If you can’t see it, you don’t want to see it.
So Glennon sucks well because he just sucks and no NFL team wants him. But Jones is noncompetitive because of the coach situation and roster.
Got it.
What NFL team would want Jones? At the very least Glennon got his chance showed you what he was in is out of the league with fewer starts than Jones has had. So then wtf is Jones doing starting again? Also if Gruden didn't have his fall from grace, I would think Glennon might have a place as 2nd or 3 rd string QB wherever he would be coaching.
No offense taken whatsoever. I understand and agree with your point. Listen it’s tough to find positives on Jones, I just think he throws a pretty good deep ball and hope Daboll institutes it more.
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the reality is the exact same with Jones or Taylor starting - unless they play great we will be moving onto another prospect in 2023.
Yes, but with TT that would be assured. Right now there's still an expectation of Jones being sprinkled with magic pixie dust and turning into a decent QB.
Basically the outcome is the same, but the expectations/mood would be different with TT over DJ.
Don't compare what fans say with what the Giants will do. Just because a handful of BBIers will think there's room for Jones to get better after 2022 doesn't mean the Giants will.
This cross over between fan group think vs. how a team is run is really bizarre to me. I state this often but I don't know anyone in my personal life that views sports the way a significant portion of this board does.
Why do you care if joeblow2934567 thinks Jones can be really good? It doesn't effect anything at all.
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In comment 15711080 Go Terps said:
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It's the same fantasy with Jones this year. Nothing has changed. Want to talk about jumping the shark...
I supported moving on from Jones which you know. You don’t ever seem to recognize that since I don’t eviscerate him daily, but that’s the truth. The second they didn’t draft a QB I moved on. Talking about the same things over and over again is absolutely pointless, but here you are.
As are you. Odd.
That's your usual post, by the way. As soon as someone agrees with your premise, but not fully and aggressively, you don't have anything more to say to that person. You really only want to fight with people.
You'd be more inclined to respond to me if I said Jones was going to lead us to a 13-4 record this year throwing for 50 TD's and win and MVP in the process.
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In comment 15711040 UConn4523 said:
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the reality is the exact same with Jones or Taylor starting - unless they play great we will be moving onto another prospect in 2023.
Yes, but with TT that would be assured. Right now there's still an expectation of Jones being sprinkled with magic pixie dust and turning into a decent QB.
Basically the outcome is the same, but the expectations/mood would be different with TT over DJ.
Don't compare what fans say with what the Giants will do. Just because a handful of BBIers will think there's room for Jones to get better after 2022 doesn't mean the Giants will.
This cross over between fan group think vs. how a team is run is really bizarre to me. I state this often but I don't know anyone in my personal life that views sports the way a significant portion of this board does.
Why do you care if joeblow2934567 thinks Jones can be really good? It doesn't effect anything at all.
Because 1.) joeblow2934567 goes around calling people who don't agree that Jones can be great miserable assholes, bad fans, etc, etc.
2.) John Mara thinks too much like joeblow2934567
On the contrary, I think it is a great lesson. As Simms proved, all QBs who struggle in their first few years go on to be Super Bowl champions. It's pretty much math.
If the Raiders hadn't quit on Jamarcus Russel he would be in the Hall of Fame today.
#themoreyouknow
Sorry, i missed the list of giants players/staff that aren't supposed to be talked about on the giants forums.
... all of the ones by next year's end. I'm sure he'll get to that level.
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Great now John Mara is infiltrated into a Daniel Jones thread.
Sorry, i missed the list of giants players/staff that aren't supposed to be talked about on the giants forums.
I think this off-season proved that Mara’s power isn’t what BBI claims it is.
There’s a ton of middle ground here. For some reason, many don’t want to entertain that as a discussion point.
"Don't tell me what a player can't do..."
I ran with that shit and hung myself with it. I figured Golloday + Deep Ball accurate Jones.
I made a giant fallacious mistake.
SAMPLE SIZE.
Most people don't care, I fucking hate myself over it.
Golloday played over 60% of the snaps. You have to throw it to him covered. Jones has no balls at all. Never going to be the guys to calm the storm when the Noreaster hits.
He is not the guy and you know it. You all just hate admitting Terps is right about Jones too.
Is what it is.
A stat like QBR attempts to aggregate almost all of the situations you described.
Not a perfect measurement, but QBR is one of the most interesting attempts to capture a QB's performance based on the flow of the game.
QBR discussion - ( New Window )
These stats do not account for the talent around the QB and the impact on them. They don't account for average down and distance on 2nd/3rd down which the Giants have been dismal at for a decade. 2nd/3rd down and 9/10 yards is far different 2nd/3rd down and 3/4 yards.
If they argument is there are QB's who have outstanding stats without a running game than my argument is they probably have a gifted group of skills guys and probably at least one option in the upper tier.
I am not paying attention to those who focus on stats until they paint a very clear picture of the QB's surrounding talent and circumstances.
This matters not only at the QB position but every position that is a distributor of the ball in sports imv.
QBR does try to account for the QB and the surrounding talent.
For example, if the OL is consistently not providing adequate protection in the view of the two reviewers assigned, they will not ding that QB as much as the QB who has adequate time. That's clearly taking into account the talent of the OL.
If the receivers are dropping balls and not getting separation, the analysis will identify that, too.
Further, QBR looks at the outcome of every down and distance. That's the differentiator between the stat and every other stat.
Again, it's not a perfect measurement, but it's ostensibly the only measurement that doesn't take the final box score numbers and derive a conclusion off of that.
There will always be an art and science to evaluating the performance of every NFL position. But what's interesting to me is that those QBs who look the part - art - year after year after year typically have the best statistical output.
To me, this is the problem with Jones. More often than not, he doesn't look the part and that is reflected in his stats.
Look, if Jones has an "average OL" and Barkley returns to form along with the wideouts staying healthy he WILL put up good numbers. But health to date?
And I'm guessing that the debate will continue.