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NFT: Cardinals at Mets Game 2. Walker

ZGiants98 : 5/17/2022 6:46 pm
Nimmo CF
Canha LF
Lindor SS
Alonso 1B
Escobar 3B
McNeil 2B
Davis DH
Jankowski RF
Nido C

Mets take the first one. Great pitching from Williams and Reed. Let sweep the day! LFGM!
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RE: Lindor is certainly not the superstar  
dannysection 313 : 5/18/2022 7:54 am : link
In comment 15711932 moze1021 said:

The expectations just can't be for him to be peak Carlos Beltran or peak Jose Reyes or peak David Wright...

The scary thing with the money is not Lindor in isolation... It's moreso: how do you look Nimmo and McNeil in the eye and say Lindor is worth triple what their worth? That's what scares me as we negotiate their next deals... [/quote]

This is a really good point. "Well, when we got him, we thought he'd be a superstar...turns out we over paid him" won't cut it.

Lindor  
Shecky : 5/18/2022 8:43 am : link
Funny how "disappointing" Lindor has been. I mean, if this is a struggling version of him, I am kinda OK with that.

As fondly as we all look back at Beltran. Keep in mind he only had two "great" seasons here, and three very disappointing ones. And the most memorable clutch Mets AB of all time - but for the wrong reasons.

Best part is - Beltran indirectly helped lead to Lindor. Beltran ->Wheeler ->Greene ->Lindor.

Has he lived up to expectations yet - obviously not. Offensively at least. But this isn't exactly Jason Bay territory.

He's been a four win player. In FA - you pay about $8-$9mm per war. So, he has been roughly 'fair' value.

He's struggled offensively - still a top five SS in the game. Far better than Rosario or Gimenez. The Mets are better team with hi than without him.

Imagine what happens when he hits the way he should?


RE: Lindor  
moze1021 : 5/18/2022 9:09 am : link
In comment 15712047 Shecky said:
Quote:
Funny how "disappointing" Lindor has been. I mean, if this is a struggling version of him, I am kinda OK with that.

As fondly as we all look back at Beltran. Keep in mind he only had two "great" seasons here, and three very disappointing ones. And the most memorable clutch Mets AB of all time - but for the wrong reasons.

Best part is - Beltran indirectly helped lead to Lindor. Beltran ->Wheeler ->Greene ->Lindor.

Has he lived up to expectations yet - obviously not. Offensively at least. But this isn't exactly Jason Bay territory.

He's been a four win player. In FA - you pay about $8-$9mm per war. So, he has been roughly 'fair' value.

He's struggled offensively - still a top five SS in the game. Far better than Rosario or Gimenez. The Mets are better team with hi than without him.

Imagine what happens when he hits the way he should?



Yes.. when he hits the way he should, Mets get off to an 18-8 start and have now gone 6-6 since he's cooled off...

Mets are better with him... but some (me included) were hyped into thinking he was a top 10 PLAYER in baseball, not a top 5 SS...

Also, don't look now but Gimenez is absolutely outplaying Lindor so far this year...
Also Shecky...  
moze1021 : 5/18/2022 9:23 am : link
Are you categorizing the Beltran seasons that he got hurt and Mets mismanaged his injuries as "disappointing", because the numbers tell a much different story than your description..

He had a bad first year then absolutely mashed while playing GG caliber CF until he was traded for an elite pitching prospect. Best free agent signing in Mets history and I don't think it's even debatable.
RE: Lindor is certainly not the superstar  
JB_in_DC : 5/18/2022 9:53 am : link
In comment 15711932 moze1021 said:
Quote:
The scary thing with the money is not Lindor in isolation... It's moreso: how do you look Nimmo and McNeil in the eye and say Lindor is worth triple what their worth? That's what scares me as we negotiate their next deals...


This is a very silly way of thinking multimillion dollar business negotiations.
i agree with the sentiment this is a good floor  
Eric on Li : 5/18/2022 10:02 am : link
and i've long been a believer in the comp to beltran generally.

but remember Beltran's 2 big years with the mets were when they had great lineups around him (specifically Delgado and Wright protecting). In 2006-2007 they averaged 5 runs per game.

even with the DH this team is only at 4.3 right now.

the hole in this lineup is only having 1 Alonso. they need another big bat behind him.

i was also a big gimenez fan and it's good to see him breaking out in cleveland. in terms of ROI that trade may not end up looking great on the financial side since lindor cost so much but i still don't have an issue with it - the mets paid for a 3-4 fwar floor and that's what they are getting.

at some point you have to think we will see the ceiling too - and honestly if not for the dead balls we may have seen it this whole year. imo getting a true #5 hitter would help the entire offense a lot.
RE: RE: Lindor is certainly not the superstar  
moze1021 : 5/18/2022 10:09 am : link
In comment 15712145 JB_in_DC said:
Quote:
In comment 15711932 moze1021 said:


Quote:


The scary thing with the money is not Lindor in isolation... It's moreso: how do you look Nimmo and McNeil in the eye and say Lindor is worth triple what their worth? That's what scares me as we negotiate their next deals...



This is a very silly way of thinking multimillion dollar business negotiations.


?? Please expand...

If I'm Nimmo I'm going to the Mets and saying "pay me more than Lindor, I'm the better player"...
RE: RE: RE: Lindor is certainly not the superstar  
moze1021 : 5/18/2022 10:12 am : link
In comment 15712168 moze1021 said:
Quote:
In comment 15712145 JB_in_DC said:


Quote:


In comment 15711932 moze1021 said:


Quote:


The scary thing with the money is not Lindor in isolation... It's moreso: how do you look Nimmo and McNeil in the eye and say Lindor is worth triple what their worth? That's what scares me as we negotiate their next deals...



This is a very silly way of thinking multimillion dollar business negotiations.



?? Please expand...

If I'm Nimmo I'm going to the Mets and saying "pay me more than Lindor, I'm the better player"...


Granted I am not saying either side is using those words, I hope you can deduce that from my commentary..

In reality:

But why would Nimmo not ask for a 10 year $350M contract when using his teammate as a benchmark?

And when the Mets counter with 6 years $120M, they are "saying" that Lindor is worth 2-3X... thats tough
Moze the comp for UFAs is against other players at their position  
Eric on Li : 5/18/2022 10:18 am : link
so Nimmo's pitch to the mets and any other team is against Starling Marte, George Springer, Byron Buxton, and other outfielders who do what he does.

that's how the mets and every other team are going to value players.

Nimmo doesn't play SS so it's not relevant.
He's also never showed the track record of staying healthy for a full year,
and he hasn't been top 10 the MVP voting once let alone 4 or 5 years in a row.

I wouldn't give him the Springer contract but i would give him a buxton/marte contract in a heartbeat. that's the question though, it's completely separate from Lindor.
Yep...  
moze1021 : 5/18/2022 10:52 am : link
I get that.. and the Mets will argue that..

And Boras will have a book showing why he's more valuable

Yes Lindor plays a valuable position, I'm just pointing out their is a strange dynamic when your highest paid player is arguably only the 4th or 5th best player on the team
RE: Yep...  
Eric on Li : 5/18/2022 11:12 am : link
In comment 15712231 moze1021 said:
Quote:
I get that.. and the Mets will argue that..

And Boras will have a book showing why he's more valuable

Yes Lindor plays a valuable position, I'm just pointing out their is a strange dynamic when your highest paid player is arguably only the 4th or 5th best player on the team


lets see where the season ends last year he was the most valuable player on the team because of his defense at SS. and Nimmo missed almost half the year like he usually does.

let's also remember it was about 14 months ago that Boras was turning down 100m for conforto because he thought he was worth springer money.

the FA's who get the real big deals usually have a history of 3-4-5 all star level seasons. and usually not the ones who have track records of missing as much time as nimmo has.
Great points.  
moze1021 : 5/18/2022 11:21 am : link
...

As long as Mets keep increasing the talent level on the team through spending and development, I'm happy.

And I do like Lindor and I'm happy he's a Met.. I've just reset my expectations (ie. great player, not top 10 player in baseball)
RE: Great points.  
Eric on Li : 5/18/2022 11:29 am : link
In comment 15712280 moze1021 said:
Quote:
...

As long as Mets keep increasing the talent level on the team through spending and development, I'm happy.

And I do like Lindor and I'm happy he's a Met.. I've just reset my expectations (ie. great player, not top 10 player in baseball)


i think this is right. i do think he may put up 1 or 2 years where he is, but overall he's not on that true MVP level every year.

the positive is that his defense at SS and what we've seen of his offense so far is a solid floor. he is a building block. alonso is a building block. i think mcneil is too, and nimmo would be if not for the injury questions.

A lefty middle of the order bat to hit behind Alonso is the biggest hole i see with the every day lineup right now. Winker would make a ton of sense as a target since he's only got 1 more year after this one, and i think you can hope Baty or Vientos takes over that role longer term.
just adding one more level to  
Rory : 5/18/2022 11:40 am : link
this that I think goes underappreciated with fans these days in all sports. And its the quality of the type of personality Lindor is.

He's energetic, great work ethic and does not carry a pre-madonna image which happens often with players in NY.

He's also shown to be a healthy player so far

He also has handled media criticism well and above all his teammates seem to love him and that goes for Buck as well.

I think part of that 400 mill contract carries that value as well.
I've  
DanMetroMan : 5/18/2022 11:45 am : link
now seen it all. Somebody on twitter arguing against adding Juan Soto because the Mets are "set" in the OF. Wow.
Lindor tied for 92nd in WAR last season for hitters  
Snablats : 5/18/2022 12:41 pm : link
That aint close to worth 34 million per year. He is .8 for this year, which would be around 3.2 for the year

Not even close to a 34 million dollar player so far. Plenty of time to turn it around, but a huge overpay so far
dead balls  
Dr. D : 5/18/2022 1:23 pm : link
can someone tell me why the f*cking baseball changes just about every year? The game's been around for 150 f*cking years and they don't have a set formula or manufacturing procedure yet?

The NFL doesn't change the football, NBA doesn't change the basketball. Why does MLB change the freaking baseball about every year?

Did Colonel Sanders change the recipe of his KFC every year? WTF.
btw, I get that baseballs  
Dr. D : 5/18/2022 1:30 pm : link
and the way they're made are different from footballs and basketballs, but it seems like the league is intentionally altering the balls and/or not even trying to have a standard product from one year to the next.
RE: dead balls  
moze1021 : 5/18/2022 1:30 pm : link
In comment 15712435 Dr. D said:
Quote:
can someone tell me why the f*cking baseball changes just about every year? The game's been around for 150 f*cking years and they don't have a set formula or manufacturing procedure yet?

The NFL doesn't change the football, NBA doesn't change the basketball. Why does MLB change the freaking baseball about every year?

Did Colonel Sanders change the recipe of his KFC every year? WTF.


Nature of the handmade ball and the game's physics I suppose.. I think there have been changes made to the basketball and football over the years but it's just not as apparent since it's what the human hands are doing with it vs the physical interaction of bat on ball..
RE: btw, I get that baseballs  
moze1021 : 5/18/2022 1:31 pm : link
In comment 15712437 Dr. D said:
Quote:
and the way they're made are different from footballs and basketballs, but it seems like the league is intentionally altering the balls and/or not even trying to have a standard product from one year to the next.


Oh I agree its super annoying... you can tell the players are annoyed as well.
RE: I've  
KDavies : 5/18/2022 1:36 pm : link
In comment 15712316 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
now seen it all. Somebody on twitter arguing against adding Juan Soto because the Mets are "set" in the OF. Wow.


lol. Almost 3 years on the contract. I can't imagine he is available until next year at the earliest. Can't imagine what he would cost in trade. Nationals would be foolish to let him go for nothing.
Got home late.  
ZGiants98 : 5/18/2022 8:09 pm : link
Sorry for no game thread. Just catching up on the Dom comments... Is he effing serious? He IS playing almost every day now.

Ugh, Im done with Dom. Get him off the team.
Game tied at 2  
ZGiants98 : 5/18/2022 8:14 pm : link
Mets Lineup

Brandon Nimmo, CF
Mark Canha, RF
Francisco Lindor, SS
Pete Alonso, 1B
Jeff McNeil, LF
Eduardo Escobar, 3B
Dominic Smith, DH
Luis Guillorme, 2B
Patrick Mazeika, C

Cardinals Lineup

Brendan Donovan, 2B
Paul Goldschmidt, 1B
Nolan Arenado, 3B
Juan Yepez, RF
Corey Dickerson, LF
Dylan Carlson, CF
Albert Pujols, DH
Yadier Molina, C
Edmundo Sosa, SS
wonder what happened to the scherzday thread  
Eric on Li : 5/18/2022 8:15 pm : link
that was a clever title.
This offense really needs to figure it’s shit out.  
CooperDash : 5/18/2022 8:21 pm : link
This is getting frustrating to watch.
RE: wonder what happened to the scherzday thread  
moze1021 : 5/18/2022 8:45 pm : link
In comment 15712777 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
that was a clever title.


Yeah agreed
RE: This offense really needs to figure it’s shit out.  
CooperDash : 5/18/2022 9:19 pm : link
In comment 15712783 CooperDash said:
Quote:
This is getting frustrating to watch.


I’ll see myself out.
Max might be hurt  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/18/2022 9:29 pm : link
Just called out the trainer and took himself out mid-at bat
Uh Oh  
Dennis : 5/18/2022 9:31 pm : link
Oh boy, i'm worried.
For a gamer like Max to call out a trainer  
CooperDash : 5/18/2022 9:32 pm : link
You should be worried.

Can we never have nice things?
oh for fucks sake  
KDubbs : 5/18/2022 9:33 pm : link
why cant the mets ever catch a break? every yr the injuries pile up
If  
DanMetroMan : 5/18/2022 9:37 pm : link
Major I don’t see how they are legitimate WS contenders. With Scherzer there was room to dream.
The Twitter lip readers say  
capone : 5/18/2022 9:45 pm : link
That he was saying “ it tightened up “ teferring to lower back … seems like he would have already told them it was getting tight given how he handled it … hopefully just spasms
Wow..  
moze1021 : 5/18/2022 9:53 pm : link
Rough 20 mins for NY sports..

Rangers blew it, Scherzer hurt...ugh
We will need at least 9 starters this season  
spike : 5/18/2022 9:54 pm : link
Scherzer
Bassitt
Walker
Carrasco
Megill
Petersen
Williams
Degrom
? Who else?
RE: The Twitter lip readers say  
capone : 5/18/2022 9:57 pm : link
In comment 15712895 capone said:
Quote:
That he was saying “ it tightened up “ teferring to lower back … seems like he would have already told them it was getting tight given how he handled it … hopefully just spasms


Or oblique …. Ugh I hope not
capone any chance the M's shop winker at the deadline?  
Eric on Li : 5/18/2022 9:58 pm : link
or are they looking to lock him in for a while?
I'm gonna  
PakistanPete : 5/18/2022 10:02 pm : link
choose to believe it's just back spasms 'til we hear otherwise.
RE: capone any chance the M's shop winker at the deadline?  
capone : 5/18/2022 10:08 pm : link
In comment 15712924 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
or are they looking to lock him in for a while?


If they are out if it he could be had for sure … they gave up a pretty good LHP prospect ( 90-100 guy) and another pretty good prospect ( connor Phillips) and they took on Suarez $ so it will cost to get 1.5yrs of control of Winker who has top 10 Ops For LHH the last 2 years (940) been very unlucky this year Xba is like +100 over actual highest in mlb until recently
olique  
DanMetroMan : 5/18/2022 10:22 pm : link
it is


Tim Healey
@timbhealey
·
42s
Max Scherzer update: left side discomfort, the Mets say. He'll get medical imaging done tomorrow.
'"discomfort in his left side"  
Dennis : 5/18/2022 10:24 pm : link
That's better than his arm.
Btw I heard the Mets are in on  
capone : 5/18/2022 10:26 pm : link
Robby Snelling HS LHP Reno Nevada … moving money around to pay his number in round 2?

Assumes someone else won’t pay more of course
RE: Btw I heard the Mets are in on  
capone : 5/18/2022 10:28 pm : link
In comment 15712955 capone said:
Quote:
Robby Snelling HS LHP Reno Nevada … moving money around to pay his number in round 2?

Assumes someone else won’t pay more of course


He’s a beast BTW and ++ makeup some relived risk I guess … but he was gonna compete for QB and Friday night pitcher at Stanford and switched to LSU pitcher only
Thanks for insight Capone - I am always curious  
bhill410 : 5/18/2022 10:49 pm : link
How much agents are able to dictate where their clients go in the mlb draft (especially HS ones)
thank u capone appreciate it  
Eric on Li : 5/18/2022 10:55 pm : link
winker would be a real good fit for mets especially if his luck can stay bad for another month or two to keep the price reasonable.
Scherzer is hopefull he caught it early before things could get worse  
Dennis : 5/18/2022 11:24 pm : link
"I don’t think this is a major strain," he said. "Like I said, I was kind of tight and then all of a sudden it went, but I don’t feel like I really ripped it, to kind of say it. It just got worse.

"Hopefully I got out of there quick enough to prevent a major injury here, because I know obliques and intercostals, those things can be nasty. Hopefully I avoided a serious injury."
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Thanks for insight Capone - I am always curious  
capone : 5/18/2022 11:53 pm : link
In comment 15712968 bhill410 said:
Quote:
How much agents are able to dictate where their clients go in the mlb draft (especially HS ones)


Happens all the time a kid like snelling may really want $2.0m but he floats $2.5 to see who is reallly interested .. it’s all bullshit only 10 days in but when you see amateur scouting directors , asst GM or even gm’s at games it’s a tell for sure sometimes they really try and hide all the good scouts keep track of traffic
Figure Peterson for Saturday  
Snablats : 5/19/2022 12:02 am : link
He was supposed to pitch for Syracuse tomorrow. Threw 6 innings on the 13th

Bassit tomorrow, Carrasco Friday, Peterson Saturday, Walker Sunday, TBA Monday at SF in Scherzer's spot
RE: Figure Peterson for Saturday  
KDavies : 5/19/2022 6:56 am : link
In comment 15712991 Snablats said:
Quote:
He was supposed to pitch for Syracuse tomorrow. Threw 6 innings on the 13th

Bassit tomorrow, Carrasco Friday, Peterson Saturday, Walker Sunday, TBA Monday at SF in Scherzer's spot


TBA would be Williams, no?
Yeah it would probably be Williams...  
moze1021 : 5/19/2022 9:15 am : link
Jose Butto next man up I guess in event another starter is needed?
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