I’ve gone back and fourth on my thoughts of Pat Riley. Initially I despised the man for bailing on the Knicks, and absolutely love the fact that NYK ended his season in 98, 99 & 2000. As time went on, I started to understand why Riley left considering the ownership situation and what would become mostly incompetence from 2001 to present for the Knicks.
However, after watching recent Riley interviews I’m back to despising him. Hearing him talk about how much it meant to him that Mourning got a ring in 2006 is tough to take. Fact is, he DID bail on the Knicks and failed.
This is a guy who went after LeBron after the 2014 for leaving when things got bad? Seriously from Riley? The same guy who quit on the Knicks after 1995?
Anyone would have taken that deal from Miami, I get that. But, he quit on the Knicks.
Does anyone think differently? Excellent book by the way.
As above poster said, Blood in the Garden showed how poor a fit Charles Smith was and also reiterates how bad of a move it was losing X Man.
Say what you want about Riley, the man wins everywhere he goes, and his decision to leave the Knicks has haunted the franchise for going on nearly 30 years
The JVG Knicks were also just an extension of Riley. Those teams played like Riley teams.
What gets me is the tough guy speak about not bailing during tough times. He did that with the Knicks. He was right to leave given what he was getting, but failed to deliver a title here. If Starks is taken out for Blackman in game 7, Knicks very well may have won.
I was a jr in high school..when Smith failed and the buzzer sounded at the end of that game, I laid face down on the carpet for a good amount of time..I knew they weren't winning in Chicago for game 6..it was over...I was in shock..Now maybe they lose game 7 at the Garden, but to lose that way...damn...
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for like the 4th time in his tenure there, constantly has me thinking about what the Knicks could have been if they gave him the package he was seeking from the book. While he surely would have missed the Ewing window (nobody was unseating Jordan) as a head coach, I have no doubt he would have constructed at least one NBA Champion during these last 22 years as GM/President.
The JVG Knicks were also just an extension of Riley. Those teams played like Riley teams.
They did, but they were never going to beat the late 90's Bulls either. I will say, I wish they had a shot at them that one year (I forgot which year) they lost to Miami because they had guys suspended for coming off the bench during an on court altercation. They specifically built that team for Chicago and never got them in a 7 game series.
As for the book, it was ok but Herring just isn't that great a writer IMO. He goes into great detail on random anecdotes that might be funny for a minute - but glosses over whole playofff series with a sentence or two. I get it that he didn't want to recount each playoff win or loss in great detail, but there were many important games and performances that were barely mentioned.
I think Oak is wrong about criticizing Ewing. Sure he wasn't an "alpha" guy. It wasn't his personality and there were no other MJ's. But the Knicks didn't need an alpha guy. They needed more talent!
The fact is Ewing never had the supporting talent that MJ had. The Bulls didn't have a .500 record MJ's first few years until they got guys like Pippen, Grant, et al.
Oak should look at himself in the mirror more before he blames Ewing. Oak was a role player that the Bulls upgraded from.
There's nothing wrong with role players, every team needs them, but that's all the Knicks had besides Ewing, at least through his prime.
Great teams including the Bulls had multiple perennial all-stars. Pippen is still considered top 50-75 player of all time. Ewing might not have ever played with a top 750 player of all time.
I wanted Riley to tell Harper to shoot more, even draw plays to get him more open shots. Instead Riley told Starks to keep shooting as if he would eventually get hot.
The starting lineup was Ewing, Harper, a guy that would've made a nice 6th man (Starks), a role playing PF who'd get 10, 10 and a small fwd (who didn't play like a SF or PF) who just sucked. Despite all that, Ewing and the Knicks almost won the title and would've maybe if Harper or anyone but Starks took a few more shots (and Starks a few less).
Starks would've made a good 6th man on a great team (nothing wrong with that, the problem was he was counted on to be a key starter and #2 scorer). Pippen is top 50-75 player of all time.
I don't understand how Oak and the Ewing critics don't see that.
and yet the Knicks almost won the series. I don't think anyone would argue that Ewing was greater than Hakeem (who might be top 10-20 player all time), but no one argued that Willis Reed was greater than Wilt or Kareem. As you know, it's a team game and I think you and I agree Ewing's supporting cast was never great.
yup
Ewing for Shaq was never actually on the table. Shaq wanted out of Orlando (and specifically to LAL) and Nelson suggested trading Ewing for assets to then trade for Shaq. It wasn't an actual discussion between Orlando and the Knicks and Checketts never took it seriously.
And when the noise stops, and it's deadly quiet, and Pat is all alone in his cozy little bed with his nighttime thoughts, going through the same shit any mortal being goes through, meaning you can't hide from those demons forever...I want him to lay there KNOWING that despite everything he's accomplished he didn't make it in NYC. He didn't close. And if you don't make it in NYC that shit is forever. You can win 10000 titles in stupid Miami or LA.
It aint NYC. Fuck off Pat. Sleep tight.
Fuck off Pat Riley.
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Would have been smart moving off Ewing for Shaq.
Ewing for Shaq was never actually on the table. Shaq wanted out of Orlando (and specifically to LAL) and Nelson suggested trading Ewing for assets to then trade for Shaq. It wasn't an actual discussion between Orlando and the Knicks and Checketts never took it seriously.
Yes please put that nonsense to bed once and for all. Shaq for Ewing yea ok....lol..
And when the noise stops, and it's deadly quiet, and Pat is all alone in his cozy little bed with his nighttime thoughts, going through the same shit any mortal being goes through, meaning you can't hide from those demons forever...I want him to lay there KNOWING that despite everything he's accomplished he didn't make it in NYC. He didn't close. And if you don't make it in NYC that shit is forever. You can win 10000 titles in stupid Miami or LA.
It aint NYC. Fuck off Pat. Sleep tight.
Fuck off Pat Riley.
I doubt Riley cares. His legacy in this game has been long cemented. Phil Jackson failed epically here too. Funny how that worked out: 2 of the winningest coaches in NBA history failed in the league's biggest market.
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all well earned....
And when the noise stops, and it's deadly quiet, and Pat is all alone in his cozy little bed with his nighttime thoughts, going through the same shit any mortal being goes through, meaning you can't hide from those demons forever...I want him to lay there KNOWING that despite everything he's accomplished he didn't make it in NYC. He didn't close. And if you don't make it in NYC that shit is forever. You can win 10000 titles in stupid Miami or LA.
It aint NYC. Fuck off Pat. Sleep tight.
Fuck off Pat Riley.
I doubt Riley cares. His legacy in this game has been long cemented. Phil Jackson failed epically here too. Funny how that worked out: 2 of the winningest coaches in NBA history failed in the league's biggest market.
Riley didn't fail so to speak. Let me rephrase that. To me, unless the fortunes of this franchise take a major turn, he'll always be synonymous with the greatest era of Knick basketball in my lifetime. Unfortunately, he had to compete against the greatest player of all time during his too brief run here.
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all well earned....
And when the noise stops, and it's deadly quiet, and Pat is all alone in his cozy little bed with his nighttime thoughts, going through the same shit any mortal being goes through, meaning you can't hide from those demons forever...I want him to lay there KNOWING that despite everything he's accomplished he didn't make it in NYC. He didn't close. And if you don't make it in NYC that shit is forever. You can win 10000 titles in stupid Miami or LA.
It aint NYC. Fuck off Pat. Sleep tight.
Fuck off Pat Riley.
I doubt Riley cares. His legacy in this game has been long cemented. Phil Jackson failed epically here too. Funny how that worked out: 2 of the winningest coaches in NBA history failed in the league's biggest market.
I’d bet money that he cares.
Also, trading Ewing was so dumb. Taking on millions of mediocre players when Ewing was an expiring contract.
Also, trading Ewing was so dumb. Taking on millions of mediocre players when Ewing was an expiring contract.
2) Ewing never really had a #2. Starks or McDaniel were probably the best, which is a big dropoff from a #2 like Pippen.
3) Ewing may have fallen short of a ring, but I don't agree he couldn't be the alpha of a champion. That said, he did need a better #2.
4) Outside of the trading of Ewing's and Childs' expiring contracts, I always felt the next biggest mistake by the front office was letting Bernard King walk in 87. After waiting so long for his return, he 22 PPG in his brief (6 games) stint at the end of 86. He went on to average over 20 PPG for Washington over the next 4 seasons before injuring his knee again. I always wondered what a Ewing/King team would have done.
5) Then there's the revolving door of PGs which never made sense. For years they had no floor leader. They draft Jackson and he makes an immediate impact. A couple of years later they get rid of him and have Strickland and then move on from him quickly. Both went on to be all stars elsewhere. We went to stop gap PGs in Rivers and Harper and haven't really had a true #1 PG since.
2) Ewing never really had a #2. Starks or McDaniel were probably the best, which is a big dropoff from a #2 like Pippen.
3) Ewing may have fallen short of a ring, but I don't agree he couldn't be the alpha of a champion. That said, he did need a better #2.
4) Outside of the trading of Ewing's and Childs' expiring contracts, I always felt the next biggest mistake by the front office was letting Bernard King walk in 87. After waiting so long for his return, he 22 PPG in his brief (6 games) stint at the end of 86. He went on to average over 20 PPG for Washington over the next 4 seasons before injuring his knee again. I always wondered what a Ewing/King team would have done.
5) Then there's the revolving door of PGs which never made sense. For years they had no floor leader. They draft Jackson and he makes an immediate impact. A couple of years later they get rid of him and have Strickland and then move on from him quickly. Both went on to be all stars elsewhere. We went to stop gap PGs in Rivers and Harper and haven't really had a true #1 PG since.
Riley left before Dolan took over. Riley left in 1995.
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1) I get people finding the irony in Riley chastising Lebron for leaving, but did Riley leave in bad times or did he leave because the owner was a complete a-hole and moron? I agree 100% the way he left was terrible (his protege's exit was worse in my opinion), but I don't blame him one bit for leaving.
2) Ewing never really had a #2. Starks or McDaniel were probably the best, which is a big dropoff from a #2 like Pippen.
3) Ewing may have fallen short of a ring, but I don't agree he couldn't be the alpha of a champion. That said, he did need a better #2.
4) Outside of the trading of Ewing's and Childs' expiring contracts, I always felt the next biggest mistake by the front office was letting Bernard King walk in 87. After waiting so long for his return, he 22 PPG in his brief (6 games) stint at the end of 86. He went on to average over 20 PPG for Washington over the next 4 seasons before injuring his knee again. I always wondered what a Ewing/King team would have done.
5) Then there's the revolving door of PGs which never made sense. For years they had no floor leader. They draft Jackson and he makes an immediate impact. A couple of years later they get rid of him and have Strickland and then move on from him quickly. Both went on to be all stars elsewhere. We went to stop gap PGs in Rivers and Harper and haven't really had a true #1 PG since.
Riley left before Dolan took over. Riley left in 1995.
50/50 split with ITT, Dolan/Cablevision bought them out in 1997 with Dolan taking full control of MSG in 1999
This.
What could have been....
Aka Dolan had nothing to do with Riley leaving.
The Knicks and Madison Square Garden were recently purchased by ITT, a multinational corporation, which won an intense competition with several other multinationals and had no intention of giving away even a piece of its prize.
In his release, Riley said his decision “had absolutely nothing to do with money” but everything to do with power.
“For the last two years,” Riley said, “I had consistently and repeatedly expressed to Knick management my desire and need to be charged with ultimate responsibility for all significant aspects of the ballclub. During this time, I had tried my best to reach an agreement with management on these issues. Unhappily, the gap between us could not be bridged.”
Aka Dolan had nothing to do with Riley leaving.
According to the book, the plot to leave went back to New Year's Eve in Colorado, I think. That was the first time Miami was brought to Riley's attention. I'm not sure if it was the summer prior where Riley met with the ITT executive basically asking for power/ownership and was turned down or sometime during the season after that holiday trip to Colorado.
You are right about JVG though, he bailed at an awful time.
Big Ewing fan but every time I read/hear that he told McDaniel to leave if he didn't feel MSG was respecting him, I think about how dumb that was. + had Stanley Roberts not temporarily blocked the Charles Smith trade, McDaniel likely doesn't bolt. I enjoyed the book but it was also a bummer for so many reasons.
Even hiring Nelson. Nellie really was a basketball genius, the offensive stuff he created are concepts being used in 2022, but the roster was not made for Don Nelson and that should have been evident to everybody at the time.
Big Ewing fan but every time I read/hear that he told McDaniel to leave if he didn't feel MSG was respecting him, I think about how dumb that was. + had Stanley Roberts not temporarily blocked the Charles Smith trade, McDaniel likely doesn't bolt. I enjoyed the book but it was also a bummer for so many reasons.
I doubt the X-Man gets blocked 5 times at the end of game 5 like Smith did. He's going up to jam that bitch and hopefully in the process give Scottie a face full of his crotch like Shaq when he dunked on Chris Dudley in LA.
Riley hated him too.
And when the noise stops, and it's deadly quiet, and Pat is all alone in his cozy little bed with his nighttime thoughts, going through the same shit any mortal being goes through, meaning you can't hide from those demons forever...I want him to lay there KNOWING that despite everything he's accomplished he didn't make it in NYC. He didn't close. And if you don't make it in NYC that shit is forever. You can win 10000 titles in stupid Miami or LA.
It aint NYC. Fuck off Pat. Sleep tight.
Fuck off Pat Riley.
What a strange take and that's not really a criticism, but more of a curious observation. As far as I can tell, no one outside of New York cares what Pat Riley didn't do with the Knicks. In fact, I had forgotten all about his tenure there and while I do know what he did in Miami, his legacy will always be the Lakers.
Why is that strange?
If I was a HC I would be obsessed with winning. I'd be annoyed that I didn't win in the media and sports capital of the world....
but that's me.
And if he doesn't care then he's not really human.
He cares. I'd bet on it. I've seen former HOF coaches and players all say the same thing that they aren't lifted by the wins as much as they are haunted by the losses. Multiple people say this time and time again.
But yea, Pat Riley doesn't care that he lost in 7 to the Rockets and then lost in 7 to the stupid fucking Pacers. In NYC. Sure he doesn't.
And yes, that's all this sad sack Knicks fan has right now. Let me have it.
And again, I am talking about Riley himself not some casual fan.
Moving on
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story short, Riley wanted Checketts' job and ownership stake.
This.
What could have been....
But thing is if you believe him, in the book Checketts said he would be fine with making Riley the team president. It was the ownership stake that Riley could never have gotten in NY.
I always shared this take. Xman was awesome that one year her but I think the cliff was coming and quick. Like you said he wasn't shit in Boston.
The KNicks had so many chances to surround Ewing with ONE great player, from the late 80s to the early 90s and they blew it time and time again. Al Bianchi was brutal. That guy had draft picks and money and players here and did nothing. The dye was nearly cast by the time Checketts and co.took over, but they blew it too.
14 and 6 with 2 assists. 48% shooting here, 50% with Boston. .93 WS/48 here, 96 with Boston. Considering they were VERY close to a title team, yes losing him even if he would soon decline was a loss.
I always felt the scheduling did us no favors that series. Games 1 & 2 were Sunday/Tuesday and the Bulls were reeling what with the whole Jordan out late in AC gambling the night before game 2 story breaking. The NBA wanted as many games as possible Memorial Day weekend so game 3 wasn't till Saturday. Those 4 days really allowed the Bulls to regroup.
After Game 5's heartbreak, I knew it was over. I had no confidence in us winning Game 6 at Chicago Stadium & bringing it back to MSG. Hell, after that series, I was pretty much resigned to us never getting over the Bulls hump as long as MJ was there. People will say the '96-'97 team played Chicago really well that season & could have given Chicago a run in the ECF if we got there. I don't know if I buy that; after '93, I really considered MJ to be like a basketball god who would find a win.
Before the '98 Finals, a lot of people were picking Utah, citing them going 2-0 vs. Chicago that year, having homecourt advantage, & the Bulls coming off that grueling 7 game ECF vs. Indy. I thought those people were crazy. I knew MJ would find a way to win. He's still the best I've ever seen.
I’m sure he feels bad he was not able to deliver a title for Ewing, Oakley, Starks & Mason especially.
He didn't actually want Checketts' job, per se. What many people don't realize is that right around that same time, Checketts was already transitioning into the CEO of the full MSG corporation, and not just President of the Knicks. The role was in a bit of flux when Riley left, Grunfeld was the one who wound up as President/GM, but not until 1996.
That's not to suggest that Riley didn't want the GM title (and probably President, too), but not because he wanted to take it away from Checketts. He likely knew that Checketts was effectively vacating that specific role and Riley threw his hat in the ring.
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story short, Riley wanted Checketts' job and ownership stake.
He didn't actually want Checketts' job, per se. What many people don't realize is that right around that same time, Checketts was already transitioning into the CEO of the full MSG corporation, and not just President of the Knicks. The role was in a bit of flux when Riley left, Grunfeld was the one who wound up as President/GM, but not until 1996.
That's not to suggest that Riley didn't want the GM title (and probably President, too), but not because he wanted to take it away from Checketts. He likely knew that Checketts was effectively vacating that specific role and Riley threw his hat in the ring.
Riley openly said he wanted to be the one making the roster decisions. The "title" was secondary.
"“For the last two years,” Riley said, “I had consistently and repeatedly expressed to Knick management my desire and need to be charged with ultimate responsibility for all significant aspects of the ballclub."
Why is that strange?
If I was a HC I would be obsessed with winning. I'd be annoyed that I didn't win in the media and sports capital of the world....
but that's me.
If anyone else since Riley had won a championship with the Knicks, I could see it getting under his skin. Given how it has actually gone since he left (both for him and the Knicks), he probably has no regrets. He probably thinks he made the right decision.
And strictly from his perspective, he'd be correct.