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NFT: Reading “Blood in the Garden” re: Riley

Sean : 5/17/2022 9:15 pm
I’ve gone back and fourth on my thoughts of Pat Riley. Initially I despised the man for bailing on the Knicks, and absolutely love the fact that NYK ended his season in 98, 99 & 2000. As time went on, I started to understand why Riley left considering the ownership situation and what would become mostly incompetence from 2001 to present for the Knicks.

However, after watching recent Riley interviews I’m back to despising him. Hearing him talk about how much it meant to him that Mourning got a ring in 2006 is tough to take. Fact is, he DID bail on the Knicks and failed.

This is a guy who went after LeBron after the 2014 for leaving when things got bad? Seriously from Riley? The same guy who quit on the Knicks after 1995?

Anyone would have taken that deal from Miami, I get that. But, he quit on the Knicks.

Does anyone think differently? Excellent book by the way.
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Charles  
DanMetroMan : 5/18/2022 4:23 pm : link
Smith was an awful fit roster wise before even getting into his chronic knee and legitimately how soft he was. I think that term is overused but he apparently was flat out bodied/intimated in practice and his own teammates recognized this. He's apparently a very nice man, but oof. Checketts wanted Harvey Grant and McDaniel to return and then ended up with... Charles Smith. Harvey was nothing special (and the Knicks should have been looking for guard help) but just terrible.
RE: Charles  
The_Boss : 5/18/2022 4:24 pm : link
In comment 15712619 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Smith was an awful fit roster wise before even getting into his chronic knee and legitimately how soft he was. I think that term is overused but he apparently was flat out bodied/intimated in practice and his own teammates recognized this. He's apparently a very nice man, but oof. Checketts wanted Harvey Grant and McDaniel to return and then ended up with... Charles Smith. Harvey was nothing special (and the Knicks should have been looking for guard help) but just terrible.

Riley hated him too.
RE: Riley has a shot load of hardware and accolades under his beld  
BigBlueBuff : 5/18/2022 6:17 pm : link
In comment 15712323 djm said:
Quote:
all well earned....



And when the noise stops, and it's deadly quiet, and Pat is all alone in his cozy little bed with his nighttime thoughts, going through the same shit any mortal being goes through, meaning you can't hide from those demons forever...I want him to lay there KNOWING that despite everything he's accomplished he didn't make it in NYC. He didn't close. And if you don't make it in NYC that shit is forever. You can win 10000 titles in stupid Miami or LA.

It aint NYC. Fuck off Pat. Sleep tight.

Fuck off Pat Riley.

What a strange take and that's not really a criticism, but more of a curious observation. As far as I can tell, no one outside of New York cares what Pat Riley didn't do with the Knicks. In fact, I had forgotten all about his tenure there and while I do know what he did in Miami, his legacy will always be the Lakers.
ok fine it's a strange take  
djm : 5/19/2022 4:58 pm : link
that one of the most successful and competitive NBA HCs ever might be annoyed that he didn't win a title in NEW YORK CITY.

Why is that strange?

If I was a HC I would be obsessed with winning. I'd be annoyed that I didn't win in the media and sports capital of the world....


but that's me.
and I didn't say people cared  
djm : 5/19/2022 5:00 pm : link
I said Pat Riley cares.

And if he doesn't care then he's not really human.

He cares. I'd bet on it. I've seen former HOF coaches and players all say the same thing that they aren't lifted by the wins as much as they are haunted by the losses. Multiple people say this time and time again.

But yea, Pat Riley doesn't care that he lost in 7 to the Rockets and then lost in 7 to the stupid fucking Pacers. In NYC. Sure he doesn't.

And yes, that's all this sad sack Knicks fan has right now. Let me have it.
and if you have forgotten his tenure in NYC  
djm : 5/19/2022 5:02 pm : link
then you're not a Knicks fan.

And again, I am talking about Riley himself not some casual fan.

Moving on
Was Xavier McDaniel leaving that big a deal, though?  
Greg from LI : 5/19/2022 5:03 pm : link
Charles Smith may have been a lousy replacement, but X wasn't all that good in Boston as I remember. He's a guy who hit the downslope of his career at an early age.
"his legacy will always be the Lakers"  
Enzo : 5/19/2022 5:10 pm : link
He's been running Miami for 25+ years. It's both.
RE: RE: Long  
Stu11 : 5/19/2022 5:14 pm : link
In comment 15712561 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 15712543 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


story short, Riley wanted Checketts' job and ownership stake.



This.

What could have been....

But thing is if you believe him, in the book Checketts said he would be fine with making Riley the team president. It was the ownership stake that Riley could never have gotten in NY.
RE: Was Xavier McDaniel leaving that big a deal, though?  
djm : 5/19/2022 5:15 pm : link
In comment 15713800 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Charles Smith may have been a lousy replacement, but X wasn't all that good in Boston as I remember. He's a guy who hit the downslope of his career at an early age.


I always shared this take. Xman was awesome that one year her but I think the cliff was coming and quick. Like you said he wasn't shit in Boston.

The KNicks had so many chances to surround Ewing with ONE great player, from the late 80s to the early 90s and they blew it time and time again. Al Bianchi was brutal. That guy had draft picks and money and players here and did nothing. The dye was nearly cast by the time Checketts and co.took over, but they blew it too.
McDaniel's  
DanMetroMan : 5/19/2022 5:23 pm : link
first year in Boston was IDENTICAL to his year with the Knicks

14 and 6 with 2 assists. 48% shooting here, 50% with Boston. .93 WS/48 here, 96 with Boston. Considering they were VERY close to a title team, yes losing him even if he would soon decline was a loss.
My favorite story in the book was the Patrick Ewing poster night  
Stu11 : 5/19/2022 5:30 pm : link
Story from St Patty's Day 1987. When they were losing by 30 to the awful Nuggets in the 2nd half and the fans were liquored up and pissed and started littering the court with the posters. After the game they asked the GM Scottie Stirling about it and he said " I'm just glad they didn't have hand grenades" ha ha. Ahhhh to be a Knicks fan...
The game of that era that-IMO-is overlooked is Game 3 of the '93 ECF.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/19/2022 5:35 pm : link
MJ was horseshit that game & Chicago still ran us off the court. With that MJ game, we had a golden opportunity to go up 3-0. If memory serves, Scottie carried the Bulls that game.
RE: The game of that era that-IMO-is overlooked is Game 3 of the '93 ECF.  
Stu11 : 5/19/2022 5:43 pm : link
In comment 15713839 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
MJ was horseshit that game & Chicago still ran us off the court. With that MJ game, we had a golden opportunity to go up 3-0. If memory serves, Scottie carried the Bulls that game.

I always felt the scheduling did us no favors that series. Games 1 & 2 were Sunday/Tuesday and the Bulls were reeling what with the whole Jordan out late in AC gambling the night before game 2 story breaking. The NBA wanted as many games as possible Memorial Day weekend so game 3 wasn't till Saturday. Those 4 days really allowed the Bulls to regroup.
Stu...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/19/2022 6:55 pm : link
I had forgotten about those 4 days off. Game 2 was May 25th & Game 3 wasn't until the 29th. Yup, that definitely helped Chicago regroup. I remember thinking @ the time that the media was really overdoing the MJ to AC story; my old man & I both were saying, 'Don't poke the bear too much'.

After Game 5's heartbreak, I knew it was over. I had no confidence in us winning Game 6 at Chicago Stadium & bringing it back to MSG. Hell, after that series, I was pretty much resigned to us never getting over the Bulls hump as long as MJ was there. People will say the '96-'97 team played Chicago really well that season & could have given Chicago a run in the ECF if we got there. I don't know if I buy that; after '93, I really considered MJ to be like a basketball god who would find a win.

Before the '98 Finals, a lot of people were picking Utah, citing them going 2-0 vs. Chicago that year, having homecourt advantage, & the Bulls coming off that grueling 7 game ECF vs. Indy. I thought those people were crazy. I knew MJ would find a way to win. He's still the best I've ever seen.
The 1997 team was very good..  
Sean : 5/19/2022 7:25 pm : link
If not for the coming off bench ordeal, I think NYK has a good shot to beat Chicago that year.
As for Riley..  
Sean : 5/19/2022 7:28 pm : link
I think he absolutely cares about not winning a title with the Knicks. He’s said that is his biggest regret in his career.

I’m sure he feels bad he was not able to deliver a title for Ewing, Oakley, Starks & Mason especially.
Sean..  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/19/2022 7:39 pm : link
I'll agree to disagree e. '97 team. Yeah, they played Chicago tough in the regular season, but I don't think anybody is beating Michael Fucking Jordan 4 times in a series come spring '97. It just ain't happening.
Riley definitely gives AF that he didn't win here.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/19/2022 7:40 pm : link
To say otherwise is absurd. He's a competitor...you think he's like 'Yeah, I'm good not winning it in NY?' Come on.
And I still can't believe we lost Game 1 to the Pacers in '95...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/19/2022 7:59 pm : link
I remember watching that game @ a girlfriend's & we were going to see 'While You Were Sleeping' after the game. Needless to say, that didn't happen. Haha.
RE: Long  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/20/2022 12:29 pm : link
In comment 15712543 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
story short, Riley wanted Checketts' job and ownership stake.

He didn't actually want Checketts' job, per se. What many people don't realize is that right around that same time, Checketts was already transitioning into the CEO of the full MSG corporation, and not just President of the Knicks. The role was in a bit of flux when Riley left, Grunfeld was the one who wound up as President/GM, but not until 1996.

That's not to suggest that Riley didn't want the GM title (and probably President, too), but not because he wanted to take it away from Checketts. He likely knew that Checketts was effectively vacating that specific role and Riley threw his hat in the ring.
RE: RE: Long  
DanMetroMan : 5/20/2022 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15714364 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15712543 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


story short, Riley wanted Checketts' job and ownership stake.


He didn't actually want Checketts' job, per se. What many people don't realize is that right around that same time, Checketts was already transitioning into the CEO of the full MSG corporation, and not just President of the Knicks. The role was in a bit of flux when Riley left, Grunfeld was the one who wound up as President/GM, but not until 1996.

That's not to suggest that Riley didn't want the GM title (and probably President, too), but not because he wanted to take it away from Checketts. He likely knew that Checketts was effectively vacating that specific role and Riley threw his hat in the ring.


Riley openly said he wanted to be the one making the roster decisions. The "title" was secondary.
In  
DanMetroMan : 5/20/2022 12:53 pm : link
his "defense" he openly said as much


"“For the last two years,” Riley said, “I had consistently and repeatedly expressed to Knick management my desire and need to be charged with ultimate responsibility for all significant aspects of the ballclub."
RE: ok fine it's a strange take  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/20/2022 2:54 pm : link
In comment 15713791 djm said:
Quote:
that one of the most successful and competitive NBA HCs ever might be annoyed that he didn't win a title in NEW YORK CITY.

Why is that strange?

If I was a HC I would be obsessed with winning. I'd be annoyed that I didn't win in the media and sports capital of the world....


but that's me.

If anyone else since Riley had won a championship with the Knicks, I could see it getting under his skin. Given how it has actually gone since he left (both for him and the Knicks), he probably has no regrets. He probably thinks he made the right decision.

And strictly from his perspective, he'd be correct.
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