@RapSheet
Sources: Former #Giants Pro Bowl CB James Bradberry has agreed to terms with the #Eagles on a 1-year deal for $10M. A big-time post-draft addition, as Bradberry lands in a perfect spot.
all in all considering the timing he did pretty well for himself. that's a better deal than what Gilmore got a few weeks before the draft.
this is all purely guesswork but i think teams were willing to trade for him on an extension around 10m AAV, maybe even slightly higher than that with some funky math. That was his current value.
bradberry thinks he's worth more like 15m+ and he's willing to play out this year to try to prove it.
he's a good guy so sucks that he stayed in the division because that makes it a little harder to root for him.
Remember his play from 2021 then remember how Hurts performed in the playoff game. This move does nothing to move the needle on Philadelphia in my opinion. They are a fringe playoff team who loses in the WC round should they qualify.
pretty amazing the nyg were unable to trade him given this
Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter
James Bradberry initially had 11 teams reach out, his agents whittled it down to three teams and eventually he chose the Eagles over the others.
those 11 teams (or at least the other 2 finalists) could have had him at roughly the same price he ended up signing for via trade.
Jason_OTC @Jason_OTC
Thats a solid contract for Bradberry. If teams were willing to go to $10Mish its surprising the Giants couldn't eat some money to get a pick.
i thought bradberry was going to get 2-3m less than this once he got cut.
RE: Would’ve rather traded him away to a non-division opponent,
To him. Iggles might have the inside track to the division now, over the 'Girls.
Inside track? With Jalen F'n Hurts at QB? Sorry unless Dak sustains another season ending injury they are still firmly the 2nd best team in the division at best.
Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter
James Bradberry initially had 11 teams reach out, his agents whittled it down to three teams and eventually he chose the Eagles over the others.
those 11 teams (or at least the other 2 finalists) could have had him at roughly the same price he ended up signing for via trade.
Not really that amazing considering he only signed a 1 year deal. Teams that wanted to trade for him wanted a multi-year extension to spread out is $12 million salary he'd get under the Giants contract. And Bradberry refused.
It was really frustrating in last years game think it was early Dec?, just how atrocious the QB play was with both Jones and Hurts played with reads, calls, throws/decision making.
Both of them were comically bad despite facing depleted rosters on both sides.
Dan Duggan
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@DDuggan21
Yes. The Giants will get a $2M credit on the 2023 cap for the $2M of Bradberry’s 2022 salary that became guaranteed in March due to standard offset language in his contract
His intention was always to hit UFA after this year. And the Giants couldn’t afford him at a 10M price.
Bradberry is a 10/M at this point in time. He’s banking on that value improving before he signs an extension.
I essentially said the same thing back in March. Team Bradberry had the leverage once Schoen admitted the cap hell situation and how much money he wanted to clear.
So, they weren't going to accommodate the new GM - for the mistake his predecessor made - by renegotiating a lower deal; and they knew the demand corners have in the market is always high demand.
Advantage Team Bradberry.
In hindsight, it was probably not the smartest move by Schoen to be so clear with his cap intentions. Less is more.
AdamSchefter's avatar
Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
James Bradberry’s one-year deal with the Eagles will pay him $7.5 million, including $7.25 million guaranteed, and another $2.5 million in upside, bringing the total value of the deal to $10 milllion, per source.
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
The Eagles are going for it. They saw that this is a year to be a player in the NFC. All the elite QB talent besides the old guys (Brady and Rodgers) are in the AFC. Who is a contender in the NFC--The Bucs, the Packers, the Niners and Rams. Those are beatable teams. They are not going against Burrow and Hebert or Mahomes or Josh Allen etc and they are going for it.
The Eagles are going for it. They saw that this is a year to be a player in the NFC. All the elite QB talent besides the old guys (Brady and Rodgers) are in the AFC. Who is a contender in the NFC--The Bucs, the Packers, the Niners and Rams. Those are beatable teams. They are not going against Burrow and Hebert or Mahomes or Josh Allen etc and they are going for it.
While I agree this is certainly a year to sneak a run in in the NFC the teams you listed are varying degrees of "beatable" including the AFC teams. Why aren't those AFC teams who were barely above .500 not also "beatable"?
RE: Part of him going to the Eagles is on Joe Schoen
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
The Giants cap situation is public. He didn't have to say it, but thats not what made teams aware of the situation. It wasn't a competitive advantage situation.
RE: Part of him going to the Eagles is on Joe Schoen
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
An intern could figure out how much cap we needed to save. Bradberry's agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't know the cap situations for each of his clients.
Schoen tried trading him, had offers, and I guess Bradberry didn't like the extension offers. So he chose to wait it out and sign a 1 year deal. Its fairly cut and dry. Schoen saying we needed to save money was a "no shit" statement.
RE: RE: Part of him going to the Eagles is on Joe Schoen
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
The Giants cap situation is public. He didn't have to say it, but thats not what made teams aware of the situation. It wasn't a competitive advantage situation.
I totally disagree. How you decide to manage the cap is definitely a strategic decision. Although most would know it would be preferable to cut Bradberry, nobody would have known out thinking. Once Schoen put a dollar amount on the cap cut, everyone knew what was going to happen. The right move was to wait and the Eagles pounced.
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
An intern could figure out how much cap we needed to save. Bradberry's agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't know the cap situations for each of his clients.
Schoen tried trading him, had offers, and I guess Bradberry didn't like the extension offers. So he chose to wait it out and sign a 1 year deal. Its fairly cut and dry. Schoen saying we needed to save money was a "no shit" statement.
He gave a dollar amount.
RE: Part of him going to the Eagles is on Joe Schoen
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
there are no secrets. he had 2 deals agreed to. do you think the same GMs Joe Schoen was calling to try to trade Bradberry to, and willing to eat money to do so, didn't realize that there was also a chance he could get cut?
bradberry just took a contract with a cap number that's likely around half of what his cap # was on a trade.
not as well in 2021, some of that I attribute to the loss of some of the better players on our defense that got hurt or left via free agency in Martinez, Carter, Fackrell and Tomlinson. The entire defense played well in 2020 and after the loss of so much talent up front it was only natural for it to effect the secondary.
Our defense is not that much worse without Bradberry. Add Thibs with a healthy Martinez and Winks scheme, I personally expect a competitive unit.
Bradberry going to the Eagles, that sucks all on its own. I will be curious to see how their defense plays.
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
An intern could figure out how much cap we needed to save. Bradberry's agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't know the cap situations for each of his clients.
Schoen tried trading him, had offers, and I guess Bradberry didn't like the extension offers. So he chose to wait it out and sign a 1 year deal. Its fairly cut and dry. Schoen saying we needed to save money was a "no shit" statement.
He gave a dollar amount.
and the alternative was what? the dollar amount was clear post-draft whether he said anything or not.
again he had 2 trades agreed to. his dollar amount wasn't the issue, the amount Bradberry wanted in an extension was.
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
NFL teams can just look at our cap space and see that.
is correct. There wasn't only one option here. But Schoen pretty much telegraphed his gameplan. A lot of GMs - including Gettleman - would have kicked the can down the road.
Schoen should have kept his cards closer to his vest. Hopefully, he will learn from this.
RE: Part of him going to the Eagles is on Joe Schoen
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
Even we can look at over the cap and see how far over the Giants were and understand that we needed to sign a rookie class. It was pretty obvious how much we needed to reduce
RE: RE: Part of him going to the Eagles is on Joe Schoen
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
NFL teams can just look at our cap space and see that.
That is obviously true, but they don't know what you are going to be doing with your cap. The cap is so able to be manipulated, but when you saw I want to clear 40 million, people take notice. Whether it made a difference we will never know, but not really sure why he needed to give everyone a dollar amount. I know it affected how Bradberry and his people dealt with the situation.
is correct. There wasn't only one option here. But Schoen pretty much telegraphed his gameplan. A lot of GMs - including Gettleman - would have kicked the can down the road.
Schoen should have kept his cards closer to his vest. Hopefully, he will learn from this.
how does anything schoen did impact whether or not they wanted Bradberry at a cap # 3-5m higher than what he got?
the market just spoke. as it did in negotiations with team bradberry during the extension talks.
RE: RE: RE: Part of him going to the Eagles is on Joe Schoen
An intern could figure out how much cap we needed to save. Bradberry's agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't know the cap situations for each of his clients.
Schoen tried trading him, had offers, and I guess Bradberry didn't like the extension offers. So he chose to wait it out and sign a 1 year deal. Its fairly cut and dry. Schoen saying we needed to save money was a "no shit" statement.
He gave a dollar amount.
Exactly. Just STFU about your strategy and cap target. Sure, most can figure out we are in Cap Hell, but you shouldn't come out and give a specific end point.
IG: JosinaAnderson
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@JosinaAnderson
Text just now from CB James Bradberry on why he chose to sign with the #Eagles: "I believe the scheme is a perfect fit for me." #NewBeginnings in the #NFCEast
I'm getting tired of people claiming how bad he was last season, he wasn't. Its like once someone says something others claim it as fact. The "fact" is our best DB just went to a division rival.
He got to pick his destination and he’s getting at least 7.5M on a contract year he started with 2M in guarantees.
hard disagree here. he's getting about half of what he was supposed to in new $ this year. this is gamble that may very well not pay off.
You can disagree as hard as a Viagra commercial — but that’s a factual observation.
He had 2M in guaranteed money on his deal with the Giants. And his new deal appears to have 7.5M guaranteed money. No matter what transpires he is guaranteed more money now.
Now, if you believe there was some alternate scenario where he would earn 15M in guarantees somewhere else, that’s fine.
But he wasn’t earning 13.5M as a New York Giant, guaranteed or otherwise.
or once again fans are reacting to a shiny object instead of the meat of the issue. schoen's comments were meaningless.
the decisions they made with bradberry are entirely questionable on the grounds of the actual decision. were they better keeping him and kicking money to next year? were they better off extending him since the going rate for corners is 20m+ in aav? if he ends up going back to the 2020 version the answer to those questions will be resoundingly yes.
the decision on whether to keep him is where they made a mistake or not. not the paper trail.
they don't choose his market value and a few comments to the press didn't change it. right now it was almost half of what his prior contract was. there is no logical world to expect that other teams decisions on what they were willing to pay him for 2022 were influenced by a comment in february. they were influenced by the player they judged him to be.
RE: entirely agree with fitzgerald here - maybe schoen cut bait too early
Jason_OTC @Jason_OTC
Thats a solid contract for Bradberry. If teams were willing to go to $10Mish its surprising the Giants couldn't eat some money to get a pick.
i thought bradberry was going to get 2-3m less than this once he got cut.
Actually don't agree with Fitz at all. According to Schoen they had multiple deals done and Bradberry's camp couldn't agree on a contract with the new team. Schoen did all he could. As previously mentioned in the thread Bradberry wanted to take his 10 mill and bet that he can earn more than that as a UFA on the open market next off season.
You can disagree as hard as a Viagra commercial — but that’s a factual observation.
He had 2M in guaranteed money on his deal with the Giants. And his new deal appears to have 7.5M guaranteed money. No matter what transpires he is guaranteed more money now.
Now, if you believe there was some alternate scenario where he would earn 15M in guarantees somewhere else, that’s fine.
But he wasn’t earning 13.5M as a New York Giant, guaranteed or otherwise.
he took a deal for 1/2 the AAV as his previous deal. there is no argument it's a good deal for him on it's own. the only way it becomes a good deal is if he has a good year and earns himself a bigger deal next year.
we can't know for sure what the extensions offered were but i guarantee they including more than 10m in guaranteed money at a higher AAV than 7.5m.
better. His actions all along since taking this job showed what he wanted to do. He let FAs leave, brought in vet minimum 1 year contracts. His two splurges were a backup QB and RG to mid-level contracts. That telegraphed his plans more than anything he might have said out loud. He clearly was setting up one year of eating cap for something of a cap reset next year.
Every GM in the league knew that Bradberry's contract was next. The fact that every team that wanted Bradberry wanted him conditionally on successful renegotiation of the contract shows how bad that contract really was. Everyone knew it was bad and everything Schoen had done up to that point indicated what he was going to do about it. You'd have to think that other GMs in the league were Gettleman level idiots not to see that. There was no poker game to play here. He was either going to accept a trade and renegotiate with another team or get cut and then go negotiate a new deal with another team. That was the only two ways this was ever going to go. Bradberry wouldn't do the former, so Schoen did the latter.
Stu i think fitzgerald's opinion likely shifts with the updated terms
with the contract being worth "up to" 10m and a base of just 7.5m.
also he's projecting the year 1 cap # to be 2.5m, which I believe would be expecting there to be 2 void years.
we'll see when it comes out but the reality is simply that the nyg were in a tough spot trying to maneuver a $13.4m cap charge for this year with team bradberry being 5m richer than teams who wanted him in extension talks.
Quote:
Jason_OTC
@Jason_OTC
Replying to @Odinbn
In that case more likely a $2.5M cap charge
It was really frustrating in last years game think it was early Dec?, just how atrocious the QB play was with both Jones and Hurts played with reads, calls, throws/decision making.
Both of them were comically bad despite facing depleted rosters on both sides.
If you are misremembering the first Eagles game in late November, Jones had 200+ yards passing, 30 yards rushing, 1 TD and a QBR of 94. Not a great game but certainly not atrocious or comically bad.
The Eagles were a logical spot for him. Hopefully they get the 2021 version or more decline. Schoen probably learned something from this experience but I'd rather Bradberry on Eagles than him getting a new multi year contract from the Giants or them touching the Williams or Golladay contracts so he could play out this year.
or was it Grahams scheme of keeping everything in front of you which just leads to first downs and long drive. IMO it was the scheme being played not the player.
The Eagles were a logical spot for him. Hopefully they get the 2021 version or more decline. Schoen probably learned something from this experience but I'd rather Bradberry on Eagles than him getting a new multi year contract from the Giants or them touching the Williams or Golladay contracts so he could play out this year.
It’s not like JB is revis here. I loved that we purged majority of overpriced vets.
If KG doesn’t perform well this yr, he may be next in 2023. Adoree? They just redid so we may have him two more yrs. New scouting department and GM, it may take another draft for the arrow to move up. Hopefully we have around 10 rookies that can contribute and show upside.
based on Fitzgerald's comment I think this is what he's guessing
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
The Giants cap situation is public. He didn't have to say it, but thats not what made teams aware of the situation. It wasn't a competitive advantage situation.
I totally disagree. How you decide to manage the cap is definitely a strategic decision. Although most would know it would be preferable to cut Bradberry, nobody would have known out thinking. Once Schoen put a dollar amount on the cap cut, everyone knew what was going to happen. The right move was to wait and the Eagles pounced.
You can't stop that information from getting out. Even if Shoen said nothing, agents talk and there's nothing the Giants can do about it. All that would need to happen is Bradberry's agent laying out to teams that they had no intention of taking a restructure and didnt like what the Giants were planning.
...his cap hit was huge, his play was declining, and the Giants' cap space was minimal.
And if Schoen "played his cards close to his vest" once he made trade inquiries every team would know about it.
And no team had an appetite to take on Bradberry at $12 million for 2022 without Bradberry taking an extension... and Bradberry didn't want to sign an extension.
Also teams knew that the Giants would have to eventually release Bradberry (you just have to look at the Giants balance sheet to figure that out), so why trade for him? He's not some great player anymore that a team feels like they have to trade for to beat out all the other teams in the league that might want him. Not for $12 million a year.
In other words, Schoen being vocal about moving on from Bradberry is a non-issue, and affected nothing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The Eagles will also, most likely,
He won't count toward the comp pick formula because he was a cut and it was past the deadline.
The Eagles cut him already? Interesting.
if they used void years (tbd) then they kind of did.
If they use void years then he won't be part of the formula but Jay read that as the Giants getting a comp pick which was not what I wrote. I'm busting balls.
From my perspective, I absolutely liked Schoen moving on from Bradberry so we can get younger and see what we have in the secondary without Bradberry. I am perfectly fine with that risk.
At the same time, I think it's a reasonable criticism against Schoen and how he publicly declared his intentions with the cap. I don't think it's a major issue, but it's always smarter - IMV - to be less clear about specific cap intentions.
IMV, every time a GM speaks publicly, he is communicating to the rest of the league, and they are listening intently.
Slayton, Toney & Robinson will run right past this guy................
It didnt matter if Shoen said what he said or not. It was obvious what needed to happen and who needed to go. When we first went into the off-season I looked at the Giants situation and came up with that the Giants needed to clear between 38-42M off the cap. Bradberry along with all the others that were let go was the only plan I could see happening.
I wasn’t for kicking money down the road either. The only thing that Shoen did different then what I came up with was not cutting Shepard. Shoen didn’t let any secrets out. If I could look at the situation, anyone doing it for a living in the NFL could see it as well. If Shoen did anything wrong it was only bringing attention to the situation but the media would have done that anyway. Hell, he never even brought Bradberry up, it was the media because just like I could see anyone looking into it could figure out that is what needed to happen.
Bradberry signing with the Eagles isn’t going to win them a Super Bowl this year and isn’t going to keep the Giants from winning one either. If anything, maybe it helps from Dallas achieving where they want to go which is fine by me.
Schoen cleared the cap, got rid of an over paid player and put the Giants in a better position next year to continue their rebuild. I don’t give a crap about which way he played it as long as he tried and found some trade offers, it’s not his fault Bradberry played hardball to get what he wanted.
I think despite the “potential” negative impact on this deal
Schoen had to set expectations with the fan base and his team. I think he was wise to do that. No one is under any illusions on what they were trying to achieve this year.
people disagree on the importance of Schoens comments, that’s about it. This isn’t really a scenario of people violently arguing over polar opposite takes like what would be featured on another Jones thread.
There’s plenty of middle, I just don’t think it’s overly important and don’t care about it one way or another. Bradberry is no longer a Giant, good luck to him and I’m hoping we use the money wisely moving forward.
They are loaded on both sides of the ball and as long as Jalen isn't a complete disaster (which he may very well may be), I see Philly winning the division.
Brandon Graham and Josh Sweat rotating on one side, Derek Barnett and Hasson Reddick rotating on the other side, with Jordan Davis, Fletcher Cox and Javon Hargrave rotating inside, with TJ Edwards and Nakobe Dean behind them... with Anthony Harris, James Bradberry and Darius Slay behind that... and they have PLENTY on offense... awww shit, this sucks, Philly might be pretty good this year and I want nothing more than to beat them 2x this year... I think I hate them more than Dallas.
They are loaded on both sides of the ball and as long as Jalen isn't a complete disaster (which he may very well may be), I see Philly winning the division.
Brandon Graham and Josh Sweat rotating on one side, Derek Barnett and Hasson Reddick rotating on the other side, with Jordan Davis, Fletcher Cox and Javon Hargrave rotating inside, with TJ Edwards and Nakobe Dean behind them... with Anthony Harris, James Bradberry and Darius Slay behind that... and they have PLENTY on offense... awww shit, this sucks, Philly might be pretty good this year and I want nothing more than to beat them 2x this year... I think I hate them more than Dallas.
It's a one year deal and Philly isn't winning anything this year. It's not like they are a corner away.
Who knows what any team is away from anything. The Bengals were 5 minutes away from a Super Bowl last season and if you told me that in last May, I would have laughed myself to the ground. The Eagles are not a bad team in what I think is an underwhelming NFC (and not just the East the whole conference). Who is actually good in the East? The Packers and Bucs (two aging QBs whose rosters are not complete), the Rams, the Niners maybe?
I hate the Eagles more than any team in this league and I am concerned.
you've got to find the right players, build it up, and then go beat the teams above you. Nothing will be handed to you. Rip off the band aid and get to work building. Don't sweat 2022 very much, look for small and any signs of progress on the football field.
2022 was always going to be a year to take a step back in order to prepare for steps forward in 2023, 2024 ...
I'm getting tired of people claiming how bad he was last season, he wasn't. Its like once someone says something others claim it as fact. The "fact" is our best DB just went to a division rival.
I feel this way as well. It is like an echo chamber (so long as what is being said is in some way positive or reinforces a benefit to the Giants).
I'm getting tired of people claiming how bad he was last season, he wasn't. Its like once someone says something others claim it as fact. The "fact" is our best DB just went to a division rival.
I feel this way as well. It is like an echo chamber (so long as what is being said is in some way positive or reinforces a benefit to the Giants).
His QBRating when targeted was over a 100. Not sure, how this is even a point of debate and I think the Giants could have done better with this as I have said in this thread and others. That is performance did not drop is a radically uninformed take.
Bradberry is a terrible corner that makes every team he’s
Makes it easier to swallow. I just despise that organization with the heat of a thousand suns and the bottom line is short term NY got worse and Phi got better. I know we're not going to be good. I can accept that. But I can't accept even the possibility of those shit stains being good. Whatever, hadda be done. Thanks Dave, hope you're enjoying Cape Cahhhhd.
I'm getting tired of people claiming how bad he was last season, he wasn't. Its like once someone says something others claim it as fact. The "fact" is our best DB just went to a division rival.
I feel this way as well. It is like an echo chamber (so long as what is being said is in some way positive or reinforces a benefit to the Giants).
generally agree. most seem unwilling to confront what schoen himself has said about this being a hard choice in favor of magical thinking that had he simply not said he needed to create cap room there was a great alternative that would have benefitted the nyg.
the decision was to keep or not to keep, and not keeping meant losing a starting caliber corner. but that's the decision they made (imo less because of last year and more because bradberry's skill set just didn't fit wink's scheme). that doesn't necessarily mean it was the right decision though. good schemes can adapt to accommodate good players.
He had a big handful of stinkers, I'm not sure what you were missing.
Yes, the defense around him had a down year, as did Graham, and yes, he had an achilles bothering him. Bottom line, he was not very good last season and it reinforces him as a cap casualty option, like it or not.
He had a big handful of stinkers, I'm not sure what you were missing.
Yes, the defense around him had a down year, as did Graham, and yes, he had an achilles bothering him. Bottom line, he was not very good last season and it reinforces him as a cap casualty option, like it or not.
his season last year was within the range of his career. it wasn't his career year in 2020 but it wasn't far off his prior 4 years in Carolina that got him 14.5m AAV. And his ball product was top of the league (4 ints, 17 passes defensed). his run D was the biggest red flag.
you've got to find the right players, build it up, and then go beat the teams above you. Nothing will be handed to you. Rip off the band aid and get to work building. Don't sweat 2022 very much, look for small and any signs of progress on the football field.
2022 was always going to be a year to take a step back in order to prepare for steps forward in 2023, 2024 ...
missed tackles all significantly higher, and you can bet the stats vs better teams were ugly.
there was an extra game (and more targets) so the per target numbers are more relevant. his best tape was probably against waller/kelce.
1/3 of the league called him when he hit FA so it's not a question of whether or not he's still a useful player. the only question this offseason was cost.
No, there is the "those grapes were sour anyway" camp with posters who thought Bradbury was wonderful two weeks ago crapping all over him for his coverage skills now that he is with a division rival.
I'm getting tired of people claiming how bad he was last season, he wasn't. Its like once someone says something others claim it as fact. The "fact" is our best DB just went to a division rival.
I feel this way as well. It is like an echo chamber (so long as what is being said is in some way positive or reinforces a benefit to the Giants).
His QBRating when targeted was over a 100. Not sure, how this is even a point of debate and I think the Giants could have done better with this as I have said in this thread and others. That is performance did not drop is a radically uninformed take.
21.7 miss tackle rate and allowed almost 900 yards. Nearly 300 on yards after contact. Gave up 8 scores.
I see the achilles as an excuse but how is that relatable to the piss poor tackling which caused almost that much yardage given up?
missed tackles all significantly higher, and you can bet the stats vs better teams were ugly.
there was an extra game (and more targets) so the per target numbers are more relevant. his best tape was probably against waller/kelce.
1/3 of the league called him when he hit FA so it's not a question of whether or not he's still a useful player. the only question this offseason was cost.
The cost and the handwringing when we're a bad football team doesn't add up for me. Rip the bandaid off and let's move fwd. I would've moved KG if the cap situation allowed it.
you've got to find the right players, build it up, and then go beat the teams above you. Nothing will be handed to you. Rip off the band aid and get to work building. Don't sweat 2022 very much, look for small and any signs of progress on the football field.
2022 was always going to be a year to take a step back in order to prepare for steps forward in 2023, 2024 ...
Agreed Jon c. So many half measures last few yrs. 2023 May be finding young cost controlled qb in draft. Plus clean8ng up the rest of the deadwood. So I am thinking 2024 first real contending yr on paper. Nail a qb, even if it costs u half your draft plus a 2024 #1. Keep building LOS. FA, dabble in 2023, go harder in 2024. We need a LT plan to be sustainable. That only happens cutting guys like JB. Can’t be shortsighted
missed tackles all significantly higher, and you can bet the stats vs better teams were ugly.
there was an extra game (and more targets) so the per target numbers are more relevant. his best tape was probably against waller/kelce.
1/3 of the league called him when he hit FA so it's not a question of whether or not he's still a useful player. the only question this offseason was cost.
The cost and the handwringing when we're a bad football team doesn't add up for me. Rip the bandaid off and let's move fwd. I would've moved KG if the cap situation allowed it.
Yup. Williams too. Good player, but too expensive and not likely to be as good when this team is ready to play representative football.
You could say it for basically everyone on the roster before Thibodeaux. This project starts with him. Maybe one or two players from before stick, but that's it.
The Eagles were a logical spot for him. Hopefully they get the 2021 version or more decline. Schoen probably learned something from this experience but I'd rather Bradberry on Eagles than him getting a new multi year contract from the Giants or them touching the Williams or Golladay contracts so he could play out this year.
.
That's how I felt as soon as they cut him, the Eagles were short at CB. I just wish Schoen would have read the market better, and cut him before giving him a 2 mill. bonus.
He then realized teams were not giving him what he wanted, and then he cuts him. Rookie GM's make some mistakes too,
not foolproof with their new jobs.
The rest of the NFL didn't know what Schoen's cap intentions were until he announced them publicly.
Do you think Gettleman would have handled the situation the same?
Of course not.
They were going to dump Bradberry at any cost. They didn't have to tell the NFL that.
You're severely underestimating the rest of the NFL if you think that all the other cuts and FA departures didn't already tell the NFL what Schoen was going to do with Bradberry and that contract. They'd all have to be Gettleman level obtuse.
The rest of the NFL didn't know what Schoen's cap intentions were until he announced them publicly.
Do you think Gettleman would have handled the situation the same?
Of course not.
They were going to dump Bradberry at any cost. They didn't have to tell the NFL that.
he also said he didn't want to punt money to next year but then did with Adoree Jackson's contract.
he also told the nfl he had contingency plans and conversations with bradberry's agents (which could have included an extension).
either one of those could have been a solution to the 40m that kept him here. automatic conversion language and the existing void year made it an easy unilateral decision if schoen chose to do exactly what he did with adoree jackson.
they decided he wasn't worth it - as the rest of the NFL did at his prior salary (13.4m). that's what happened here and the comment about cutting 40m wasn't relevant. team's evaluations of what bradberry is on the field was (nyg included). they could be right or wrong but there was no missed opportunity or missed strategic step that would have changed the outcome.
missed tackles all significantly higher, and you can bet the stats vs better teams were ugly.
there was an extra game (and more targets) so the per target numbers are more relevant. his best tape was probably against waller/kelce.
1/3 of the league called him when he hit FA so it's not a question of whether or not he's still a useful player. the only question this offseason was cost.
The cost and the handwringing when we're a bad football team doesn't add up for me. Rip the bandaid off and let's move fwd. I would've moved KG if the cap situation allowed it.
who is handwringing the decision? the only thing i'm handwringing is the notion that a public comment in february somehow impacted how much other teams felt bradberry could contribute to theirs.
the nyg moved on because the existing contract didn't align with their value of the player, and it turns out the rest of the NFL concurred. that doesn't make bradberry a trash player. as schoen said it was just an unfortunate situation.
He was unhappy here: a losing franchise, again, for him, and upset about restructures.
I’m thinking he at least partially tanked as the year went on.
If I’m wrong, then he’s on the downside.
In any case, that is NOT the kind of guy you want while building a team.
If he has a rejuvenation there, OK. But they’re gonna have a young team that will have bumps in the road too. And if they have problems,…….
The NFL is filled with GM who kick the can down the road. Schoen had no track record.
There is nothing to gain in revealing plans publicly.
This reminds me of the argument I've had with Giants fans on this site who have argued "everyone knew who the Giants were going to draft, why are you so concerned they are indicating their intentions?"
The NFL is filled with GM who kick the can down the road. Schoen had no track record.
There is nothing to gain in revealing plans publicly.
This reminds me of the argument I've had with Giants fans on this site who have argued "everyone knew who the Giants were going to draft, why are you so concerned they are indicating their intentions?"
salary cap information is publicly updated daily.
draft boards are not.
since they signed taylor/glowinski on the first day of FA in march their fiscal needs were 100% transparent to the entire world. and they had numerous paths to get there.
if anything the public comment in february may have been a tool to spur trade conversations for all the players on the roster ahead of FA the same way reports of players like amari cooper getting release sometimes spur other teams to facilitate a trade.
if teams want players that are available they go get them.
And networking that goes on around the league. There is no way that something like this could have stayed private. It's not a state secret that the Giants cap was a mess and they were going to have to shed contracts. It's not a state secret that Bradberry's contract was an easy, obvious candidate to get cut, and there is no logic in a clearly rebuilding franchise tacking on big new money to a 29 year old player.
missed tackles all significantly higher, and you can bet the stats vs better teams were ugly.
there was an extra game (and more targets) so the per target numbers are more relevant. his best tape was probably against waller/kelce.
1/3 of the league called him when he hit FA so it's not a question of whether or not he's still a useful player. the only question this offseason was cost.
The cost and the handwringing when we're a bad football team doesn't add up for me. Rip the bandaid off and let's move fwd. I would've moved KG if the cap situation allowed it.
who is handwringing the decision? the only thing i'm handwringing is the notion that a public comment in february somehow impacted how much other teams felt bradberry could contribute to theirs.
the nyg moved on because the existing contract didn't align with their value of the player, and it turns out the rest of the NFL concurred. that doesn't make bradberry a trash player. as schoen said it was just an unfortunate situation.
There's a few in here worried about this decision, not referring to you, and I get it. But, the Giants need to move on and part of that will dictate things possibly being worse before it's better. I welcome it, let's GO.
He can certainly do wrong. But the likely scenario here is that he says nothing and here we are on May 18th, with Bradberry signing with the Eagles anyway.
This is as benign as it gets. But hey, its something to talk about.
We're simply going to have to agree to disagree on this.
You seem to be arguing that the Giants had no other choice but to dump Bradberry.
That's simply not true.
? im arguing the exact opposite. they had a bunch of choices.
the NYG could have kept him but ultimately decided he wasn't a player worth keeping.
the NFL ultimately decided he was worth 1/2 the amount of money his previous contract had left on it.
both of those are facts without any conjecture necessary and it's silly to think either was in any way impacted by a public comment schoen made in february.
There were a lot of indicators that Bradberry and the Eagles were a good fit and interested. It happens more times than not that a player goes to a division rival. Its a 1 year deal so they will probably get a comp pick too.
You cant worry about a guy we cut. i liked Bradberry and wanted to keep him but he clearly wasnt part of the long term plan so better to see what we have and improve next year when we have more money.
The rest of the NFL didn't know what Schoen's cap intentions were until he announced them publicly.
Do you think Gettleman would have handled the situation the same?
Of course not.
They were going to dump Bradberry at any cost. They didn't have to tell the NFL that.
I suspect the rest of the league was fully aware of what the Giants needed to do with their cap even before Schoen was hired. Schoen saying that didn't really change much, and he never had any leverage with Bradberry, and everyone knew that.
I'd have rather dumped Barkley for a mid round pick
because Bradberry isn't part of the solution for NYG. They need to determine whether or not Barkley will be. When you expect a difficult season unwinding past mistakes, you need to be smart about how you do it.
I am not arguing the Giants should or should not have kept Bradberry.
That's moot.
But Bradberry potentially had VALUE for teams looking for a veteran CB.
As a fan, it was great to hear in January that the Giants wanted to cut $40 million from their salary cap. But Schoen revealed his intentions at that point. He was not going to kick the can down the road, which MANY teams do. Once he revealed those plans, it was clear they were not going to keep Bradberry unless he accepted a paycut (unlikely).
The $40 million reduction was NOT inevitable. There were other ways to handle the cap. It would have been better for Schoen to not say anything about the team's cap plans.
The results are what we saw... before the draft, teams low-balled the Giants (Mara also didn't help matters when he said at the owners' meeting the team may have to cut Bradberry).
Would the results ultimately have been the same? Possible. But there was nothing to gain by revealing intentions. On the other hand, it might have hurt the team's ability to shop him before the draft.
It's water under the bridge at this point, but it was a rookie mistake.
RE: RE: RE: Part of him going to the Eagles is on Joe Schoen
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
An intern could figure out how much cap we needed to save. Bradberry's agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't know the cap situations for each of his clients.
Schoen tried trading him, had offers, and I guess Bradberry didn't like the extension offers. So he chose to wait it out and sign a 1 year deal. Its fairly cut and dry. Schoen saying we needed to save money was a "no shit" statement.
He gave a dollar amount.
dude stop.
Schoen made it public so that people understood why he was about to cut Logan Ryan and not sign back Giants FA's also to validate why he could only get 1yr deal players at the start of FA.
But Bradberry potentially had VALUE for teams looking for a veteran CB.
bradberry didn't have value at the contract he was on. to the nyg or other teams. period.
teams were willing to give up draft picks for him but he refused the extensions.
there were 11 teams who called him after he got because as you said they valued what he can do on the field - and with all that interest he got $7.5m cash - which proves the point that his prior contract the nyg were handcuffed to was pretty underwater since he would have cost an acquiring team 10m+ even if the nyg ate some $.
no amount of public posturing was going to change how the league valued him. the 40m comment by schoen had 0 impact on bradberry's trade market. his cap # did.
Contract negotiation 101 for anyone who’s negotiated an agreement professionally: absolutely never eliminate an outcome.
I’d imagine preferred outcome #1 was trade Bradberry for a mid round pick,
#2 agree to a substantially decreased 2022 cost, #3 cut him, #4 extend him, #5 do nothing.
Schoen should have come out publicly early and said we think James is a really good corner and we have all the tools to keep him. I’m always open to listen, but right now we’re planning on James playing really well for us this year.
And when Bradberry wouldn’t agree to terms with a new team, and the trade partners started drying up — he should have said the exact same thing again.
Even if Schoen was completely quiet about wanting to shed payroll, I don't think any team would trade for Bradberry if it meant $12 million for 2022.
And once Schoen talked trade with one team, word would spread throughout the league like it always does with every potential veteran that a team wants to trade.
How often do we here about a team that wants to trade a veteran and then they end up having to cut him? It's commonplace.
The only time it seem successful at all its a position like QB or pass rusher. Or Jaylen Ramsey... and Bradberry ain't Jalen Ramsey. Not even close.
I am not arguing the Giants should or should not have kept Bradberry.
That's moot.
But Bradberry potentially had VALUE for teams looking for a veteran CB.
As a fan, it was great to hear in January that the Giants wanted to cut $40 million from their salary cap. But Schoen revealed his intentions at that point. He was not going to kick the can down the road, which MANY teams do. Once he revealed those plans, it was clear they were not going to keep Bradberry unless he accepted a paycut (unlikely).
The $40 million reduction was NOT inevitable. There were other ways to handle the cap. It would have been better for Schoen to not say anything about the team's cap plans.
The results are what we saw... before the draft, teams low-balled the Giants (Mara also didn't help matters when he said at the owners' meeting the team may have to cut Bradberry).
Would the results ultimately have been the same? Possible. But there was nothing to gain by revealing intentions. On the other hand, it might have hurt the team's ability to shop him before the draft.
It's water under the bridge at this point, but it was a rookie mistake.
x 100
The other mistake was being so transparent about the Bradberry situation. Once that was telegraphed, I have to imagine most potential suitors concluded: "...unless we can get Bradberry for a very low draft pick and re-work his salary favorably, let's just wait to see if he's released. And then deal with Team Bradberry directly..."
Again, it's not a huge mistake by Schoen. But it smelled like a rookie misstep and one that I hope he learns from...
Prior to signing Bradberry the Eagles had $10,180,000 in available CAP space. Bradberry's contract is one year at $10,000,000 leaving the Eagles with no CAP space.
The Eagles have not signed all their draft picks so they need money for their contracts.
They will also need money for inseason contracts.
So expect some CAP maneuvering to keep them afloat.
What compounds the Eagles CAP problem is that they have $3,980,422 in CAP space next year and $24,487,575 in 2024.
They will not be able to extend contracts as they have no space available.
The Eagles must win this year or next to justify their CAP purgatory
Contract negotiation 101 for anyone who’s negotiated an agreement professionally: absolutely never eliminate an outcome.
I’d imagine preferred outcome #1 was trade Bradberry for a mid round pick,
#2 agree to a substantially decreased 2022 cost, #3 cut him, #4 extend him, #5 do nothing.
Schoen should have come out publicly early and said we think James is a really good corner and we have all the tools to keep him. I’m always open to listen, but right now we’re planning on James playing really well for us this year.
And when Bradberry wouldn’t agree to terms with a new team, and the trade partners started drying up — he should have said the exact same thing again.
he said this - he said he had contingency plans and when pressed on it he said he's been in contact with James' agents and they'd like to keep him.
the comment that's being made into a mountain was just as nebulous and non-specific as saying he had contingency plans.
the main people who kept saying bradberry's release were imminent were the beat writers who lacked an understanding of the market. they were writing those articles literally while schoen had accepted offers in hand from other teams that only fell apart because bradberry chose to play for less money this year to reach UFA next march. they lacked an understanding of the situation and created a false narrative that the whole world knew bradberry was going to get released. the houston texans didn't know that, they were willing to trade draft picks for him but immediately moved on to signing Steven Nelson for just 2.5m less guaranteed than Bradberry got when their negotiation was allegedly $5m apart.
The NFL is filled with GM who kick the can down the road. Schoen had no track record.
There is nothing to gain in revealing plans publicly.
This reminds me of the argument I've had with Giants fans on this site who have argued "everyone knew who the Giants were going to draft, why are you so concerned they are indicating their intentions?"
Again, I kinda see your point but anyone can look at the cuts that left dead cap space, the FA departures and the 1 year deals and draw the obvious conclusion. The Giants were gutting the roster and getting rid of as many bad contracts as possible. I honestly don't see how his public stance is connected to his ability to trade Bradberry. His contract was untradeable as it was. There was no market for that contract. Bradberry wouldn't come to terms with a new team so he got cut. There was never an option for him to stay on that contract. I don't see how subterfuge would have changed the market conditions around JB and his contract. No one wanted it, which is again an indication that cutting him and getting out from the contract was probably necessary, if painful.
Bradberry did not want to be a Giant.
He could have resigned with the Giants by extending his contract with a voidable year.
He would have made more money and reduced his CAP hit to a palatable number. But he chose not to.
I do not think that Bradberry wanted to be on a rebuilding team and knew he had no future here.
In addition to his wanting to leave the team, he also did not ingratiate himself by not agreeing to signing a long term contract with Giants trade partners.
The Giants had to release him or they would have to deal with a disgruntled player who could destroy the team chemistry.
But again, there was no advantage to revealing plans.
was there an advantage saying neal and icky were 'side by side'? or that they had 6 they liked with an emergency #7? or that they had 160 players with draftable grades?
was there an advantage saying they were open to trading down or would it have been better posturing to say they would only do so if blown away?
was there an advantage to saying they were open for business and willing to talk about any player on their roster, including in answer to questions about specific players?
they get asked questions, they give answers, none of it actually impacts decisions they or any other team makes. if they liked bradberry more they'd have kept him. if other teams liked bradberry more they'd have given him the contract he wanted.
i personally appreciate that schoen seems to be pretty forthright and smart in the answers he gives.
because Bradberry isn't part of the solution for NYG. They need to determine whether or not Barkley will be. When you expect a difficult season unwinding past mistakes, you need to be smart about how you do it.
I don't think there's a realistic scenario where paying Barkley makes sense. Even if he has a massive statistical year, a look around the league tells us that paying running backs is folly.
And that's the high end of the range of possible outcomes. More likely his low current value will only depreciate further, and in December 2022 we'll be wishing we had traded him in April 2022 for whatever we could get.
I wish Schoen had been more aggressive in ripping this down. It's going to happen anyway.
with the cost of WR's exploding a RB who does well in receiving game
could be an interesting value play - especially on a 1 year tag.
Is Barkley's rookie year worth the same thing Marquez Valdez Scantling cost the Chiefs or Evan Engram cost the Jags? that question answers itself.
the question is how degraded physically is he from the player he was his rookie year? which i think is what jonc is saying is worth finding out (i agree).
Was borderline elite in 2020, but slightly above average last year. I think it’s more likely we see an even lesser version of what we saw last year than it is he returns to 2020 form.
29 years old is right around the age that most corners begin trending downwards. JB already showed signs of regression last year.
Daboll didn't feature RBs in the pass game in Buffalo
I don't think he will here either. If they make Barkley a slot receiver that's a different story. I'd be fine with that.
Still not a reason to pay him though. Slot receivers grow on trees in college.
grow on trees yes but also getting picked in the first or second round in abundance. is a first or second round pick worth a 10m cap hit?
as a rookie barkley had 9 plays go 40+ yards which was among the most in the NFL - even compared to WRs (that's tied with the most tyreek hill had in his best season for example).
he tied Randy Moss as the only other rookie to have 5 tds 50+ yards.
he broke the rookie record for receptions by a RB and hit the fastest ball carrier GPS speeds other than Tyreek Hill.
if they didn't have a role in mind for him they wouldn't have kept him and my guess is that it's going to be hybrid. again just a guess but i think he will get 10 or so carries per game and 5+ receptions from all different alignments - wide, slot, backfield, jet motion - obviously health withstanding.
the notion that daboll didn't use his running backs is also a bit off - he didn't use 1 specific running back a lot but he did use his committee a good amount. last year's bills offense had about 100 targets to RBs, with only Beasley (112) and Diggs (164) the only targets getting more than that. the RB number doesn't count McKenzie so it may actually be a bit higher.
RE: with the cost of WR's exploding a RB who does well in receiving game
could be an interesting value play - especially on a 1 year tag.
Is Barkley's rookie year worth the same thing Marquez Valdez Scantling cost the Chiefs or Evan Engram cost the Jags? that question answers itself.
the question is how degraded physically is he from the player he was his rookie year? which i think is what jonc is saying is worth finding out (i agree).
Interesting point, although as an aside, i think the WR market is looney and will be unsustainable. Wouldn't touch those contracts unless i was about to win the SB and had decent cap space. But good point about using him as a faux WR (we might need to given our underwhelming crop).
I am not arguing the Giants should or should not have kept Bradberry.
That's moot.
But Bradberry potentially had VALUE for teams looking for a veteran CB.
As a fan, it was great to hear in January that the Giants wanted to cut $40 million from their salary cap. But Schoen revealed his intentions at that point. He was not going to kick the can down the road, which MANY teams do. Once he revealed those plans, it was clear they were not going to keep Bradberry unless he accepted a paycut (unlikely).
The $40 million reduction was NOT inevitable. There were other ways to handle the cap. It would have been better for Schoen to not say anything about the team's cap plans.
The results are what we saw... before the draft, teams low-balled the Giants (Mara also didn't help matters when he said at the owners' meeting the team may have to cut Bradberry).
Would the results ultimately have been the same? Possible. But there was nothing to gain by revealing intentions. On the other hand, it might have hurt the team's ability to shop him before the draft.
It's water under the bridge at this point, but it was a rookie mistake.
Eric has a point here despite it being likely that other teams/agents already knowing what the NYG were likely to do. No reason to cement it.
And that was also likely before everyone realized Barkley had no appetite for blocking. Throwing with him in the backfield is, IMO, inviting a lot of trouble.
I'm all for getting him out of the backfield and getting the ball in his hands 5-8 yards past the LOS. All for it.
Remember also what Schoen has said about paying premium positions.
Optimus - it wasn't just likely that teams/agents knew what was up
it's likely that the team let Bradberry's agents go out and seek out willing suitors. Schoen insinuated as much in his interviews post-draft, his interests were entirely aligned with Bradberry's agent to find the team that wanted him the most. In this situation there was no downside to outsourcing that expedition for a bunch of reasons.
Nothing Schoen said publicly made a difference. The whole damn world knew our situation. We had ZERO leverage and all the teams knew that. There were no rookie mistakes. I am laughing.
The Giants had offers to trade him. This is reported news. The reason a trade didn't happen is teams could not come to an agreement with Bradberry's agent on contract terms.
Is that not proof enough that whatever Shoen said really had no impact?
Warren Sharp
@SharpFootball
the Giants have a larger dead cap hit ($11.7M) to have James Bradberry play for the Eagles than the Eagles are actually paying him ($10M)
Warren Sharp
@SharpFootball
the Giants have a larger dead cap hit ($11.7M) to have James Bradberry play for the Eagles than the Eagles are actually paying him ($10M)
And that's the high end of the range of possible outcomes. More likely his low current value will only depreciate further, and in December 2022 we'll be wishing we had traded him in April 2022 for whatever we could get.
Fortunately, there will be a second window at the trade deadline this year. If SB is playing well and healthy, it would be foolish not to pull all the stops to find a buyer.
There continues to be a long learning curve here at BBI with posters who just can't see the light and how fungible the RB position is.
As far as I'm concerned, the best way to build the RB position is by committee only, like New England, Ravens, etc. I'd love to have a Derrick Henry, but he is rare and from another galaxy.
The Giants had offers to trade him. This is reported news. The reason a trade didn't happen is teams could not come to an agreement with Bradberry's agent on contract terms.
Is that not proof enough that whatever Shoen said really had no impact?
exactly right. teams liked him but not at the price the nyg had him.
And that's the high end of the range of possible outcomes. More likely his low current value will only depreciate further, and in December 2022 we'll be wishing we had traded him in April 2022 for whatever we could get.
Fortunately, there will be a second window at the trade deadline this year. If SB is playing well and healthy, it would be foolish not to pull all the stops to find a buyer.
There continues to be a long learning curve here at BBI with posters who just can't see the light and how fungible the RB position is.
As far as I'm concerned, the best way to build the RB position is by committee only, like New England, Ravens, etc. I'd love to have a Derrick Henry, but he is rare and from another galaxy.
Yeah but if Barkley was traded this offseason, even if it was for peanuts, we'd be able to retain Bradberry (or at least had a better shot to) -- as opposed to paying more to him than the Eagles are for him to go to philly
The Giants had offers to trade him. This is reported news. The reason a trade didn't happen is teams could not come to an agreement with Bradberry's agent on contract terms.
Is that not proof enough that whatever Shoen said really had no impact?
Meanwhile, in New England, Belichick says absolutely nothing about his strategy and constantly pulls off trades, despite his reputation as an aggressive trader who has a great touch with moving players at their expiration date.
NFL Insider
@AngryNFLInsider
·
6h
James Bradberry to the #Eagles is a nice get for them. Eagles truly do have the best roster in the NFC East. Dave Gettlemans mess continues to haunt the #Giants in many ways. #NFL
I don't think the Giants should have moved other people to retain Bradberry. Bradberry should just have been part of a larger group of people that were moved with the purpose of creating a cleaner slate with which to begin 2023.
The more trades, cuts, and cap pain in 2022 the better. That points to a better 2023 and beyond.
RE: RE: This argument is approaching a vicious cycle.
The Giants had offers to trade him. This is reported news. The reason a trade didn't happen is teams could not come to an agreement with Bradberry's agent on contract terms.
Is that not proof enough that whatever Shoen said really had no impact?
Meanwhile, in New England, Belichick says absolutely nothing about his strategy and constantly pulls off trades, despite his reputation as an aggressive trader who has a great touch with moving players at their expiration date.
What's the comparison here? This is not a "shoen didn't get it done" situation to me. He has no control over what Bradberry's agent wants or what the Chiefs or other teams want to offer Bradberry's agent. Those trades are out of his hands. He said himself they had deals in place.
Not one person on here can state an upside for Schoen
blabbing his mouth about our cap strategy. They best they can come up with is "it did not matter." Nobody here is definitively saying that it did, my point and I think others have been, there was no upside to blabbing.
Team has multiple options. 1. they can trade his contract if another team will take it. 2. they can kick the can down the road and let him play 3. they can restructure 4. they can cut him etc.
Schoen told the world what option he was taking, so Bradberry had no incentive to play along with the trade aspect of it, he was getting cut as he knew and he could control his own destiny. If Schoen keeps his cards close to his vest, Bradberry's agent has to guess what the Giants will do.
Again, there was no upside on going on a press tour and announcing we are clearing 40 million in cap.
RE: RE: This argument is approaching a vicious cycle.
The Giants had offers to trade him. This is reported news. The reason a trade didn't happen is teams could not come to an agreement with Bradberry's agent on contract terms.
Is that not proof enough that whatever Shoen said really had no impact?
Meanwhile, in New England, Belichick says absolutely nothing about his strategy and constantly pulls off trades, despite his reputation as an aggressive trader who has a great touch with moving players at their expiration date.
should have hired someone with the NE pedigree.
RE: Not one person on here can state an upside for Schoen
blabbing his mouth about our cap strategy. They best they can come up with is "it did not matter." Nobody here is definitively saying that it did, my point and I think others have been, there was no upside to blabbing.
Team has multiple options. 1. they can trade his contract if another team will take it. 2. they can kick the can down the road and let him play 3. they can restructure 4. they can cut him etc.
Schoen told the world what option he was taking, so Bradberry had no incentive to play along with the trade aspect of it, he was getting cut as he knew and he could control his own destiny. If Schoen keeps his cards close to his vest, Bradberry's agent has to guess what the Giants will do.
Again, there was no upside on going on a press tour and announcing we are clearing 40 million in cap.
this makes no sense. bradberry's agent was specifically motivated to try to accommodate the nyg situation precisely because he knew he was on the chopping block. you realize Bradberry lost almost $6m this year because of how things went right? he did not come out of this a winner by any stretch of the imagination.
RE: RE: Not one person on here can state an upside for Schoen
blabbing his mouth about our cap strategy. They best they can come up with is "it did not matter." Nobody here is definitively saying that it did, my point and I think others have been, there was no upside to blabbing.
Team has multiple options. 1. they can trade his contract if another team will take it. 2. they can kick the can down the road and let him play 3. they can restructure 4. they can cut him etc.
Schoen told the world what option he was taking, so Bradberry had no incentive to play along with the trade aspect of it, he was getting cut as he knew and he could control his own destiny. If Schoen keeps his cards close to his vest, Bradberry's agent has to guess what the Giants will do.
Again, there was no upside on going on a press tour and announcing we are clearing 40 million in cap.
this makes no sense. bradberry's agent was specifically motivated to try to accommodate the nyg situation precisely because he knew he was on the chopping block. you realize Bradberry lost almost $6m this year because of how things went right? he did not come out of this a winner by any stretch of the imagination.
if you are looking at this for one year it doesn't make sense, but that was not what Bradberry was doing. But Bradberry clearly was not looking at this for 2022, his entire game was his next contract. He wanted to control where he played. Bradberry turned down more money to take the Eagles offer. Bradberry and his agent weren't playing the short game here.
the most important thing to Bradberry was to control his own destiny. He realizes a good 2022 gets him a multiyear deal. A bad 2022, he is signing 1 year 3 million contract next year. He thinks going to the Eagles--- playing in a zone heavy scheme, and playing in this crap division is the best way to get that moving his way. He turned down more money from other teams by all reports to take the Eagles offer because it suited his long term goal.
RE: RE: RE: This argument is approaching a vicious cycle.
Meanwhile, in New England, Belichick says absolutely nothing about his strategy and constantly pulls off trades, despite his reputation as an aggressive trader who has a great touch with moving players at their expiration date.
What's the comparison here? This is not a "shoen didn't get it done" situation to me. He has no control over what Bradberry's agent wants or what the Chiefs or other teams want to offer Bradberry's agent. Those trades are out of his hands. He said himself they had deals in place.
Why isn't this on Schoen? Bradberry didn't have a no-trade clause where it limited Schoen's market.
By tipping his hand early in the process, Schoen lost his leverage with the market and Bradberry because it was clear that the Giants were desperate for a conclusion one way or the other. And a release was inevitable.
So, any potential partner and Team Bradberry could drag their feet and just wait for that release firewall.
would have called our bluff and we would have released him. But, telling him that, takes away any such advantage you had in him saying, well what if the Giants keep me in this man defense.
this was not his plan A - see image below from last week
there are approximately 5.9m reasons he'd rather be making 13.4m this year than 7.5m.
it's rumored he wanted $5m more than Houston was willing to go on an extension per year, my guess is the league was willing to pay him close to 10m AAV but he wanted $15m, and he turned it down thinking he had more leverage than he had (possibly including thinking the nyg were bluffing about cutting him outright).
either way his retweet would seemingly imply he didn't view the giants actions as "giving him what he wanted".
the texans rumors came from aaron wilson who is very reliable
It appears the Giants found a taker for James Bradberry‘s contract, but discussions on a prospective extension scuttled the deal, leading the veteran cornerback to free agency.
Aaron Wilson
@AaronWilson_NFL
Texans and former Giants corner James Bradberry were at least $5 million apart in contract discussion in prospective trade talks, per league sources. Not expected to be revisited after team drafted Derek Stingley Jr. third overall and signed veteran corner Steven Nelson.
their presumed pivot Steven Nelson got 2 years, 9m announced on april 13th.
He wasn't sniffing 13.4M as a Giant the moment Gettleman retired. That's a non-starter. He actually wasn't sniffing that after giving up a league high 8 TDs.
He's got a path to 10M this year, chose his destination, and is an UFA.
RE: RE: RE: RE: This argument is approaching a vicious cycle.
Meanwhile, in New England, Belichick says absolutely nothing about his strategy and constantly pulls off trades, despite his reputation as an aggressive trader who has a great touch with moving players at their expiration date.
What's the comparison here? This is not a "shoen didn't get it done" situation to me. He has no control over what Bradberry's agent wants or what the Chiefs or other teams want to offer Bradberry's agent. Those trades are out of his hands. He said himself they had deals in place.
Why isn't this on Schoen? Bradberry didn't have a no-trade clause where it limited Schoen's market.
By tipping his hand early in the process, Schoen lost his leverage with the market and Bradberry because it was clear that the Giants were desperate for a conclusion one way or the other. And a release was inevitable.
So, any potential partner and Team Bradberry could drag their feet and just wait for that release firewall.
I really think you're imagining leverage that never existed. It's not about a no trade clause. Several teams made offers. The Giants were happy with the compensation they would have gotten if Bradberry could have signed an extension deal. That was the turning point, not that the Giants somehow failed to properly mask their intentions.
RE: Not one person on here can state an upside for Schoen
If Schoen keeps his cards close to his vest, Bradberry's agent has to guess what the Giants will do.
Again, there was no upside on going on a press tour and announcing we are clearing 40 million in cap.
I think you're turning this into a Hollywood poker showdown. You don't have to be a CIA agent to know the Giant weren't going to be able to keep the player at his cost. The player told you he wasn't re-negotiating his deal after making restructures in previous years. There was never a threat of "well we'll just keep you". The Giants couldn'tfinancially go along with his money going into the league year. They needed his cap money.
Meanwhile, in New England, Belichick says absolutely nothing about his strategy and constantly pulls off trades, despite his reputation as an aggressive trader who has a great touch with moving players at their expiration date.
What's the comparison here? This is not a "shoen didn't get it done" situation to me. He has no control over what Bradberry's agent wants or what the Chiefs or other teams want to offer Bradberry's agent. Those trades are out of his hands. He said himself they had deals in place.
Why isn't this on Schoen? Bradberry didn't have a no-trade clause where it limited Schoen's market.
By tipping his hand early in the process, Schoen lost his leverage with the market and Bradberry because it was clear that the Giants were desperate for a conclusion one way or the other. And a release was inevitable.
So, any potential partner and Team Bradberry could drag their feet and just wait for that release firewall.
I really think you're imagining leverage that never existed. It's not about a no trade clause. Several teams made offers. The Giants were happy with the compensation they would have gotten if Bradberry could have signed an extension deal. That was the turning point, not that the Giants somehow failed to properly mask their intentions.
and in the process bradberry ended up with a 3-6m paycut.
the people who may have misplayed this are bradberry and his agent.
weird position to take from someone who thinks his play is in decline
He wasn't sniffing 13.4M as a Giant the moment Gettleman retired. That's a non-starter. He actually wasn't sniffing that after giving up a league high 8 TDs.
He's got a path to 10M this year, chose his destination, and is an UFA.
the path to 10m is expected to be not likely to be earned by definition for cap purposes, which means something has to go better this year than last year like making the pro bowl.
the path to getting the kind of multi-year deal he seems to want next year is similar.
so if you are on the side of thinking he wasn't very good last year and is in decline, wouldn't you also think passing on a multi-year extension above $7.5m AAV for a 1 year deal at that amount was a mistake?
there is only 1 way team bradberry crushes it - and that's him turning back the clock to 2020 having another career-best season. this move is a gamble and it's odds of success are essentially whatever the odds you think he has to make the pro bowl this year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Part of him going to the Eagles is on Joe Schoen
as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
An intern could figure out how much cap we needed to save. Bradberry's agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't know the cap situations for each of his clients.
Schoen tried trading him, had offers, and I guess Bradberry didn't like the extension offers. So he chose to wait it out and sign a 1 year deal. Its fairly cut and dry. Schoen saying we needed to save money was a "no shit" statement.
He gave a dollar amount.
dude stop.
Schoen made it public so that people understood why he was about to cut Logan Ryan and not sign back Giants FA's also to validate why he could only get 1yr deal players at the start of FA.
Also it was already public knowledge.
Again stop
point of fact, cutting logan ryan saved nothing, and may in fact cost more then keeping him.
I don't think announcing what he wanted to cut dollar wise was neccessary or particularly smart, but I don't think it was a blunder. The blunder is what happened next. JB situation was mishandled. The CB situation was either a bad plan, a poorly exucated plan, or no plan. The secondary in general is counting on a lot of things we have never seen, with no depth, and little competition
cutting logan ryan saved them money off next year's cap
That’s a lot of assumptions to back into a premise.
1) Maybe the extra 2.5M is all NLTB, maybe it’s not
2) We both know making a pro bowl is not a prerequisite for 10M AAV for a corner, especially next offseason
3) We don’t know the guarantees or structure of any extension he was offered elsewhere
4) He got to choose his destination, and secured 7.5M in guarantees after the draft
Bradberry bet on himself, picks his destination, and gets a shot to prove he’s not in decline. That’s a great outcome for him.
He’s had a million chances to secure a contract for the 2023 season since he signed with the Giants. It’s obvious he wants to reach UFA.
was bradberry the guy who gave up more yards/tds than any CB in football last year who you suggested move to safety?
or is he now all of a sudden a good bet to bounce back big enough to get paid entering his age 30 season?
just to contextualize how tall a task Bradberry has ahead of him there are only about 20 corners over $10m, and only 1 of them was 30 years old+ at signing (Gilmore who signed for 2/20m in April). Gilmore's actually the only a30+ corner at the time of signing for over $6m+ AAV.
the extension Gilmore signed is likely similar to the deals Bradberry passed on in April, ending up with less this year with nothing guaranteed in the future on low % play to do better next year. if i was his agent i'd have told him to take advantage of whatever leverage he had then because the odds are he probably won't get it again.
Sources: Former #Giants Pro Bowl CB James Bradberry has agreed to terms with the #Eagles on a 1-year deal for $10M. A big-time post-draft addition, as Bradberry lands in a perfect spot.
this is all purely guesswork but i think teams were willing to trade for him on an extension around 10m AAV, maybe even slightly higher than that with some funky math. That was his current value.
bradberry thinks he's worth more like 15m+ and he's willing to play out this year to try to prove it.
he's a good guy so sucks that he stayed in the division because that makes it a little harder to root for him.
James Bradberry initially had 11 teams reach out, his agents whittled it down to three teams and eventually he chose the Eagles over the others.
those 11 teams (or at least the other 2 finalists) could have had him at roughly the same price he ended up signing for via trade.
Thats a solid contract for Bradberry. If teams were willing to go to $10Mish its surprising the Giants couldn't eat some money to get a pick.
i thought bradberry was going to get 2-3m less than this once he got cut.
Schoen had two trades completed. Not his fault Bradberry and his agent couldn't agree to a deal with said teams.
Inside track? With Jalen F'n Hurts at QB? Sorry unless Dak sustains another season ending injury they are still firmly the 2nd best team in the division at best.
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Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter
James Bradberry initially had 11 teams reach out, his agents whittled it down to three teams and eventually he chose the Eagles over the others.
those 11 teams (or at least the other 2 finalists) could have had him at roughly the same price he ended up signing for via trade.
Not really that amazing considering he only signed a 1 year deal. Teams that wanted to trade for him wanted a multi-year extension to spread out is $12 million salary he'd get under the Giants contract. And Bradberry refused.
His intention was always to hit UFA after this year. And the Giants couldn’t afford him at a 10M price.
Bradberry is a 10/M at this point in time. He’s banking on that value improving before he signs an extension.
It was really frustrating in last years game think it was early Dec?, just how atrocious the QB play was with both Jones and Hurts played with reads, calls, throws/decision making.
Both of them were comically bad despite facing depleted rosters on both sides.
✔
@DDuggan21
Yes. The Giants will get a $2M credit on the 2023 cap for the $2M of Bradberry’s 2022 salary that became guaranteed in March due to standard offset language in his contract
His intention was always to hit UFA after this year. And the Giants couldn’t afford him at a 10M price.
Bradberry is a 10/M at this point in time. He’s banking on that value improving before he signs an extension.
I essentially said the same thing back in March. Team Bradberry had the leverage once Schoen admitted the cap hell situation and how much money he wanted to clear.
So, they weren't going to accommodate the new GM - for the mistake his predecessor made - by renegotiating a lower deal; and they knew the demand corners have in the market is always high demand.
Advantage Team Bradberry.
In hindsight, it was probably not the smartest move by Schoen to be so clear with his cap intentions. Less is more.
Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
James Bradberry’s one-year deal with the Eagles will pay him $7.5 million, including $7.25 million guaranteed, and another $2.5 million in upside, bringing the total value of the deal to $10 milllion, per source.
unless they included a void year, which they may have needed to do.
The Eagles are going for it. They saw that this is a year to be a player in the NFC. All the elite QB talent besides the old guys (Brady and Rodgers) are in the AFC. Who is a contender in the NFC--The Bucs, the Packers, the Niners and Rams. Those are beatable teams. They are not going against Burrow and Hebert or Mahomes or Josh Allen etc and they are going for it.
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Fills a definite need.
The Eagles are going for it. They saw that this is a year to be a player in the NFC. All the elite QB talent besides the old guys (Brady and Rodgers) are in the AFC. Who is a contender in the NFC--The Bucs, the Packers, the Niners and Rams. Those are beatable teams. They are not going against Burrow and Hebert or Mahomes or Josh Allen etc and they are going for it.
While I agree this is certainly a year to sneak a run in in the NFC the teams you listed are varying degrees of "beatable" including the AFC teams. Why aren't those AFC teams who were barely above .500 not also "beatable"?
The Giants cap situation is public. He didn't have to say it, but thats not what made teams aware of the situation. It wasn't a competitive advantage situation.
An intern could figure out how much cap we needed to save. Bradberry's agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't know the cap situations for each of his clients.
Schoen tried trading him, had offers, and I guess Bradberry didn't like the extension offers. So he chose to wait it out and sign a 1 year deal. Its fairly cut and dry. Schoen saying we needed to save money was a "no shit" statement.
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as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
The Giants cap situation is public. He didn't have to say it, but thats not what made teams aware of the situation. It wasn't a competitive advantage situation.
I totally disagree. How you decide to manage the cap is definitely a strategic decision. Although most would know it would be preferable to cut Bradberry, nobody would have known out thinking. Once Schoen put a dollar amount on the cap cut, everyone knew what was going to happen. The right move was to wait and the Eagles pounced.
He won't count toward the comp pick formula because he was a cut and it was past the deadline.
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as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
An intern could figure out how much cap we needed to save. Bradberry's agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't know the cap situations for each of his clients.
Schoen tried trading him, had offers, and I guess Bradberry didn't like the extension offers. So he chose to wait it out and sign a 1 year deal. Its fairly cut and dry. Schoen saying we needed to save money was a "no shit" statement.
He gave a dollar amount.
there are no secrets. he had 2 deals agreed to. do you think the same GMs Joe Schoen was calling to try to trade Bradberry to, and willing to eat money to do so, didn't realize that there was also a chance he could get cut?
bradberry just took a contract with a cap number that's likely around half of what his cap # was on a trade.
Our defense is not that much worse without Bradberry. Add Thibs with a healthy Martinez and Winks scheme, I personally expect a competitive unit.
Bradberry going to the Eagles, that sucks all on its own. I will be curious to see how their defense plays.
I don’t think a GM should ever share any detail on financials. It was a rookie mistake.
Credit to team Bradberry — they knew his worth and didn’t budge.
He got to pick his destination and he’s getting at least 7.5M on a contract year he started with 2M in guarantees.
And of course the Eagles waited it out and didn’t trade for a player who was always getting cut.
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In comment 15712247 Essex said:
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as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
An intern could figure out how much cap we needed to save. Bradberry's agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't know the cap situations for each of his clients.
Schoen tried trading him, had offers, and I guess Bradberry didn't like the extension offers. So he chose to wait it out and sign a 1 year deal. Its fairly cut and dry. Schoen saying we needed to save money was a "no shit" statement.
He gave a dollar amount.
and the alternative was what? the dollar amount was clear post-draft whether he said anything or not.
again he had 2 trades agreed to. his dollar amount wasn't the issue, the amount Bradberry wanted in an extension was.
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In hindsight, it was probably not the smartest move by Schoen to be so clear with his cap intentions. Less is more.
I don’t think a GM should ever share any detail on financials. It was a rookie mistake.
Credit to team Bradberry — they knew his worth and didn’t budge.
He got to pick his destination and he’s getting at least 7.5M on a contract year he started with 2M in guarantees.
And of course the Eagles waited it out and didn’t trade for a player who was always getting cut.
hard disagree here. he's getting about half of what he was supposed to in new $ this year. this is gamble that may very well not pay off.
NFL teams can just look at our cap space and see that.
Schoen should have kept his cards closer to his vest. Hopefully, he will learn from this.
Even we can look at over the cap and see how far over the Giants were and understand that we needed to sign a rookie class. It was pretty obvious how much we needed to reduce
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as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
NFL teams can just look at our cap space and see that.
That is obviously true, but they don't know what you are going to be doing with your cap. The cap is so able to be manipulated, but when you saw I want to clear 40 million, people take notice. Whether it made a difference we will never know, but not really sure why he needed to give everyone a dollar amount. I know it affected how Bradberry and his people dealt with the situation.
Schoen should have kept his cards closer to his vest. Hopefully, he will learn from this.
how does anything schoen did impact whether or not they wanted Bradberry at a cap # 3-5m higher than what he got?
the market just spoke. as it did in negotiations with team bradberry during the extension talks.
An intern could figure out how much cap we needed to save. Bradberry's agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't know the cap situations for each of his clients.
Schoen tried trading him, had offers, and I guess Bradberry didn't like the extension offers. So he chose to wait it out and sign a 1 year deal. Its fairly cut and dry. Schoen saying we needed to save money was a "no shit" statement.
He gave a dollar amount.
Exactly. Just STFU about your strategy and cap target. Sure, most can figure out we are in Cap Hell, but you shouldn't come out and give a specific end point.
✔
@JosinaAnderson
Text just now from CB James Bradberry on why he chose to sign with the #Eagles: "I believe the scheme is a perfect fit for me." #NewBeginnings in the #NFCEast
One camp won't/can't criticize any move.
One camp won't/can't laud any more.
It's OK to be in the middle.
hard disagree here. he's getting about half of what he was supposed to in new $ this year. this is gamble that may very well not pay off.
You can disagree as hard as a Viagra commercial — but that’s a factual observation.
He had 2M in guaranteed money on his deal with the Giants. And his new deal appears to have 7.5M guaranteed money. No matter what transpires he is guaranteed more money now.
Now, if you believe there was some alternate scenario where he would earn 15M in guarantees somewhere else, that’s fine.
But he wasn’t earning 13.5M as a New York Giant, guaranteed or otherwise.
One camp won't/can't criticize any move.
One camp won't/can't laud any more.
It's OK to be in the middle.
or once again fans are reacting to a shiny object instead of the meat of the issue. schoen's comments were meaningless.
the decisions they made with bradberry are entirely questionable on the grounds of the actual decision. were they better keeping him and kicking money to next year? were they better off extending him since the going rate for corners is 20m+ in aav? if he ends up going back to the 2020 version the answer to those questions will be resoundingly yes.
the decision on whether to keep him is where they made a mistake or not. not the paper trail.
they don't choose his market value and a few comments to the press didn't change it. right now it was almost half of what his prior contract was. there is no logical world to expect that other teams decisions on what they were willing to pay him for 2022 were influenced by a comment in february. they were influenced by the player they judged him to be.
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Jason_OTC @Jason_OTC
Thats a solid contract for Bradberry. If teams were willing to go to $10Mish its surprising the Giants couldn't eat some money to get a pick.
i thought bradberry was going to get 2-3m less than this once he got cut.
Actually don't agree with Fitz at all. According to Schoen they had multiple deals done and Bradberry's camp couldn't agree on a contract with the new team. Schoen did all he could. As previously mentioned in the thread Bradberry wanted to take his 10 mill and bet that he can earn more than that as a UFA on the open market next off season.
You can disagree as hard as a Viagra commercial — but that’s a factual observation.
He had 2M in guaranteed money on his deal with the Giants. And his new deal appears to have 7.5M guaranteed money. No matter what transpires he is guaranteed more money now.
Now, if you believe there was some alternate scenario where he would earn 15M in guarantees somewhere else, that’s fine.
But he wasn’t earning 13.5M as a New York Giant, guaranteed or otherwise.
he took a deal for 1/2 the AAV as his previous deal. there is no argument it's a good deal for him on it's own. the only way it becomes a good deal is if he has a good year and earns himself a bigger deal next year.
we can't know for sure what the extensions offered were but i guarantee they including more than 10m in guaranteed money at a higher AAV than 7.5m.
After his performance last year?
Every GM in the league knew that Bradberry's contract was next. The fact that every team that wanted Bradberry wanted him conditionally on successful renegotiation of the contract shows how bad that contract really was. Everyone knew it was bad and everything Schoen had done up to that point indicated what he was going to do about it. You'd have to think that other GMs in the league were Gettleman level idiots not to see that. There was no poker game to play here. He was either going to accept a trade and renegotiate with another team or get cut and then go negotiate a new deal with another team. That was the only two ways this was ever going to go. Bradberry wouldn't do the former, so Schoen did the latter.
also he's projecting the year 1 cap # to be 2.5m, which I believe would be expecting there to be 2 void years.
we'll see when it comes out but the reality is simply that the nyg were in a tough spot trying to maneuver a $13.4m cap charge for this year with team bradberry being 5m richer than teams who wanted him in extension talks.
@Jason_OTC
Replying to @Odinbn
In that case more likely a $2.5M cap charge
It was really frustrating in last years game think it was early Dec?, just how atrocious the QB play was with both Jones and Hurts played with reads, calls, throws/decision making.
Both of them were comically bad despite facing depleted rosters on both sides.
If you are misremembering the first Eagles game in late November, Jones had 200+ yards passing, 30 yards rushing, 1 TD and a QBR of 94. Not a great game but certainly not atrocious or comically bad.
It’s not like JB is revis here. I loved that we purged majority of overpriced vets.
If KG doesn’t perform well this yr, he may be next in 2023. Adoree? They just redid so we may have him two more yrs. New scouting department and GM, it may take another draft for the arrow to move up. Hopefully we have around 10 rookies that can contribute and show upside.
fitzgerald guess at bradberry contract - ( New Window )
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Get a comp for him in 2024.
He won't count toward the comp pick formula because he was a cut and it was past the deadline.
The Eagles cut him already? Interesting.
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In comment 15712247 Essex said:
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as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
The Giants cap situation is public. He didn't have to say it, but thats not what made teams aware of the situation. It wasn't a competitive advantage situation.
I totally disagree. How you decide to manage the cap is definitely a strategic decision. Although most would know it would be preferable to cut Bradberry, nobody would have known out thinking. Once Schoen put a dollar amount on the cap cut, everyone knew what was going to happen. The right move was to wait and the Eagles pounced.
You can't stop that information from getting out. Even if Shoen said nothing, agents talk and there's nothing the Giants can do about it. All that would need to happen is Bradberry's agent laying out to teams that they had no intention of taking a restructure and didnt like what the Giants were planning.
They do have draft capital to move up for a QB next year though.
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In comment 15712234 robbieballs2003 said:
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Get a comp for him in 2024.
He won't count toward the comp pick formula because he was a cut and it was past the deadline.
The Eagles cut him already? Interesting.
if they used void years (tbd) then they kind of did.
And if Schoen "played his cards close to his vest" once he made trade inquiries every team would know about it.
And no team had an appetite to take on Bradberry at $12 million for 2022 without Bradberry taking an extension... and Bradberry didn't want to sign an extension.
Also teams knew that the Giants would have to eventually release Bradberry (you just have to look at the Giants balance sheet to figure that out), so why trade for him? He's not some great player anymore that a team feels like they have to trade for to beat out all the other teams in the league that might want him. Not for $12 million a year.
In other words, Schoen being vocal about moving on from Bradberry is a non-issue, and affected nothing.
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In comment 15712269 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 15712234 robbieballs2003 said:
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Get a comp for him in 2024.
He won't count toward the comp pick formula because he was a cut and it was past the deadline.
The Eagles cut him already? Interesting.
if they used void years (tbd) then they kind of did.
If they use void years then he won't be part of the formula but Jay read that as the Giants getting a comp pick which was not what I wrote. I'm busting balls.
One camp won't/can't criticize any move.
One camp won't/can't laud any more.
It's OK to be in the middle.
From my perspective, I absolutely liked Schoen moving on from Bradberry so we can get younger and see what we have in the secondary without Bradberry. I am perfectly fine with that risk.
At the same time, I think it's a reasonable criticism against Schoen and how he publicly declared his intentions with the cap. I don't think it's a major issue, but it's always smarter - IMV - to be less clear about specific cap intentions.
IMV, every time a GM speaks publicly, he is communicating to the rest of the league, and they are listening intently.
They do have draft capital to move up for a QB next year though.
The Eagles scored 26 PPG and went to the playoffs with Hurts last year. I think they're a good over bet (9.5) and bet to win the division (+190).
I wasn’t for kicking money down the road either. The only thing that Shoen did different then what I came up with was not cutting Shepard. Shoen didn’t let any secrets out. If I could look at the situation, anyone doing it for a living in the NFL could see it as well. If Shoen did anything wrong it was only bringing attention to the situation but the media would have done that anyway. Hell, he never even brought Bradberry up, it was the media because just like I could see anyone looking into it could figure out that is what needed to happen.
Bradberry signing with the Eagles isn’t going to win them a Super Bowl this year and isn’t going to keep the Giants from winning one either. If anything, maybe it helps from Dallas achieving where they want to go which is fine by me.
Schoen cleared the cap, got rid of an over paid player and put the Giants in a better position next year to continue their rebuild. I don’t give a crap about which way he played it as long as he tried and found some trade offers, it’s not his fault Bradberry played hardball to get what he wanted.
There’s plenty of middle, I just don’t think it’s overly important and don’t care about it one way or another. Bradberry is no longer a Giant, good luck to him and I’m hoping we use the money wisely moving forward.
One camp won't/can't criticize any move.
One camp won't/can't laud any more.
It's OK to be in the middle.
the no compliments camp is having a good run this past decade!
put a product on the field that isn't abysmal and then I'll compliment.
As a Philadelphia Eagle this morning - "All-Pro level guy they got on the cheap."
Brandon Graham and Josh Sweat rotating on one side, Derek Barnett and Hasson Reddick rotating on the other side, with Jordan Davis, Fletcher Cox and Javon Hargrave rotating inside, with TJ Edwards and Nakobe Dean behind them... with Anthony Harris, James Bradberry and Darius Slay behind that... and they have PLENTY on offense... awww shit, this sucks, Philly might be pretty good this year and I want nothing more than to beat them 2x this year... I think I hate them more than Dallas.
Brandon Graham and Josh Sweat rotating on one side, Derek Barnett and Hasson Reddick rotating on the other side, with Jordan Davis, Fletcher Cox and Javon Hargrave rotating inside, with TJ Edwards and Nakobe Dean behind them... with Anthony Harris, James Bradberry and Darius Slay behind that... and they have PLENTY on offense... awww shit, this sucks, Philly might be pretty good this year and I want nothing more than to beat them 2x this year... I think I hate them more than Dallas.
i'd still take dallas > philly pretty easily.
dak >>>>>> hurts
Who knows what any team is away from anything. The Bengals were 5 minutes away from a Super Bowl last season and if you told me that in last May, I would have laughed myself to the ground. The Eagles are not a bad team in what I think is an underwhelming NFC (and not just the East the whole conference). Who is actually good in the East? The Packers and Bucs (two aging QBs whose rosters are not complete), the Rams, the Niners maybe?
I hate the Eagles more than any team in this league and I am concerned.
2022 was always going to be a year to take a step back in order to prepare for steps forward in 2023, 2024 ...
I feel this way as well. It is like an echo chamber (so long as what is being said is in some way positive or reinforces a benefit to the Giants).
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I'm getting tired of people claiming how bad he was last season, he wasn't. Its like once someone says something others claim it as fact. The "fact" is our best DB just went to a division rival.
I feel this way as well. It is like an echo chamber (so long as what is being said is in some way positive or reinforces a benefit to the Giants).
His QBRating when targeted was over a 100. Not sure, how this is even a point of debate and I think the Giants could have done better with this as I have said in this thread and others. That is performance did not drop is a radically uninformed take.
(Okay, none of that is true. But fuck the Eagles. That part is definitely true.)
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I'm getting tired of people claiming how bad he was last season, he wasn't. Its like once someone says something others claim it as fact. The "fact" is our best DB just went to a division rival.
I feel this way as well. It is like an echo chamber (so long as what is being said is in some way positive or reinforces a benefit to the Giants).
generally agree. most seem unwilling to confront what schoen himself has said about this being a hard choice in favor of magical thinking that had he simply not said he needed to create cap room there was a great alternative that would have benefitted the nyg.
the decision was to keep or not to keep, and not keeping meant losing a starting caliber corner. but that's the decision they made (imo less because of last year and more because bradberry's skill set just didn't fit wink's scheme). that doesn't necessarily mean it was the right decision though. good schemes can adapt to accommodate good players.
Yes, the defense around him had a down year, as did Graham, and yes, he had an achilles bothering him. Bottom line, he was not very good last season and it reinforces him as a cap casualty option, like it or not.
Yes, the defense around him had a down year, as did Graham, and yes, he had an achilles bothering him. Bottom line, he was not very good last season and it reinforces him as a cap casualty option, like it or not.
his season last year was within the range of his career. it wasn't his career year in 2020 but it wasn't far off his prior 4 years in Carolina that got him 14.5m AAV. And his ball product was top of the league (4 ints, 17 passes defensed). his run D was the biggest red flag.
2022 was always going to be a year to take a step back in order to prepare for steps forward in 2023, 2024 ...
This ^
there was an extra game (and more targets) so the per target numbers are more relevant. his best tape was probably against waller/kelce.
1/3 of the league called him when he hit FA so it's not a question of whether or not he's still a useful player. the only question this offseason was cost.
One camp won't/can't criticize any move.
One camp won't/can't laud any more.
It's OK to be in the middle.
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In comment 15712295 PatersonPlank said:
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I'm getting tired of people claiming how bad he was last season, he wasn't. Its like once someone says something others claim it as fact. The "fact" is our best DB just went to a division rival.
I feel this way as well. It is like an echo chamber (so long as what is being said is in some way positive or reinforces a benefit to the Giants).
His QBRating when targeted was over a 100. Not sure, how this is even a point of debate and I think the Giants could have done better with this as I have said in this thread and others. That is performance did not drop is a radically uninformed take.
21.7 miss tackle rate and allowed almost 900 yards. Nearly 300 on yards after contact. Gave up 8 scores.
I see the achilles as an excuse but how is that relatable to the piss poor tackling which caused almost that much yardage given up?
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missed tackles all significantly higher, and you can bet the stats vs better teams were ugly.
there was an extra game (and more targets) so the per target numbers are more relevant. his best tape was probably against waller/kelce.
1/3 of the league called him when he hit FA so it's not a question of whether or not he's still a useful player. the only question this offseason was cost.
The cost and the handwringing when we're a bad football team doesn't add up for me. Rip the bandaid off and let's move fwd. I would've moved KG if the cap situation allowed it.
2022 was always going to be a year to take a step back in order to prepare for steps forward in 2023, 2024 ...
Agreed Jon c. So many half measures last few yrs. 2023 May be finding young cost controlled qb in draft. Plus clean8ng up the rest of the deadwood. So I am thinking 2024 first real contending yr on paper. Nail a qb, even if it costs u half your draft plus a 2024 #1. Keep building LOS. FA, dabble in 2023, go harder in 2024. We need a LT plan to be sustainable. That only happens cutting guys like JB. Can’t be shortsighted
Do you think Gettleman would have handled the situation the same?
Of course not.
They were going to dump Bradberry at any cost. They didn't have to tell the NFL that.
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In comment 15712416 JonC said:
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missed tackles all significantly higher, and you can bet the stats vs better teams were ugly.
there was an extra game (and more targets) so the per target numbers are more relevant. his best tape was probably against waller/kelce.
1/3 of the league called him when he hit FA so it's not a question of whether or not he's still a useful player. the only question this offseason was cost.
The cost and the handwringing when we're a bad football team doesn't add up for me. Rip the bandaid off and let's move fwd. I would've moved KG if the cap situation allowed it.
Yup. Williams too. Good player, but too expensive and not likely to be as good when this team is ready to play representative football.
You could say it for basically everyone on the roster before Thibodeaux. This project starts with him. Maybe one or two players from before stick, but that's it.
That's how I felt as soon as they cut him, the Eagles were short at CB. I just wish Schoen would have read the market better, and cut him before giving him a 2 mill. bonus.
He then realized teams were not giving him what he wanted, and then he cuts him. Rookie GM's make some mistakes too,
not foolproof with their new jobs.
Do you think Gettleman would have handled the situation the same?
Of course not.
They were going to dump Bradberry at any cost. They didn't have to tell the NFL that.
You're severely underestimating the rest of the NFL if you think that all the other cuts and FA departures didn't already tell the NFL what Schoen was going to do with Bradberry and that contract. They'd all have to be Gettleman level obtuse.
Do you think Gettleman would have handled the situation the same?
Of course not.
They were going to dump Bradberry at any cost. They didn't have to tell the NFL that.
he also said he didn't want to punt money to next year but then did with Adoree Jackson's contract.
he also told the nfl he had contingency plans and conversations with bradberry's agents (which could have included an extension).
either one of those could have been a solution to the 40m that kept him here. automatic conversion language and the existing void year made it an easy unilateral decision if schoen chose to do exactly what he did with adoree jackson.
they decided he wasn't worth it - as the rest of the NFL did at his prior salary (13.4m). that's what happened here and the comment about cutting 40m wasn't relevant. team's evaluations of what bradberry is on the field was (nyg included). they could be right or wrong but there was no missed opportunity or missed strategic step that would have changed the outcome.
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In comment 15712416 JonC said:
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missed tackles all significantly higher, and you can bet the stats vs better teams were ugly.
there was an extra game (and more targets) so the per target numbers are more relevant. his best tape was probably against waller/kelce.
1/3 of the league called him when he hit FA so it's not a question of whether or not he's still a useful player. the only question this offseason was cost.
The cost and the handwringing when we're a bad football team doesn't add up for me. Rip the bandaid off and let's move fwd. I would've moved KG if the cap situation allowed it.
who is handwringing the decision? the only thing i'm handwringing is the notion that a public comment in february somehow impacted how much other teams felt bradberry could contribute to theirs.
the nyg moved on because the existing contract didn't align with their value of the player, and it turns out the rest of the NFL concurred. that doesn't make bradberry a trash player. as schoen said it was just an unfortunate situation.
I’m thinking he at least partially tanked as the year went on.
If I’m wrong, then he’s on the downside.
In any case, that is NOT the kind of guy you want while building a team.
If he has a rejuvenation there, OK. But they’re gonna have a young team that will have bumps in the road too. And if they have problems,…….
This issue is he is not part of the long term plan, which also is fine
Would I like him here, yes, but I also understand the side of if he is not going to be here in 2023, let’s clear what can be cleared
He becomes a very good no 2 on the Eagles
There is nothing to gain in revealing plans publicly.
This reminds me of the argument I've had with Giants fans on this site who have argued "everyone knew who the Giants were going to draft, why are you so concerned they are indicating their intentions?"
"Schoen can do no wrong!"
Better?
There is nothing to gain in revealing plans publicly.
This reminds me of the argument I've had with Giants fans on this site who have argued "everyone knew who the Giants were going to draft, why are you so concerned they are indicating their intentions?"
salary cap information is publicly updated daily.
draft boards are not.
since they signed taylor/glowinski on the first day of FA in march their fiscal needs were 100% transparent to the entire world. and they had numerous paths to get there.
if anything the public comment in february may have been a tool to spur trade conversations for all the players on the roster ahead of FA the same way reports of players like amari cooper getting release sometimes spur other teams to facilitate a trade.
if teams want players that are available they go get them.
You seem to be arguing that the Giants had no other choice but to dump Bradberry.
That's simply not true.
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In comment 15712422 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15712416 JonC said:
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missed tackles all significantly higher, and you can bet the stats vs better teams were ugly.
there was an extra game (and more targets) so the per target numbers are more relevant. his best tape was probably against waller/kelce.
1/3 of the league called him when he hit FA so it's not a question of whether or not he's still a useful player. the only question this offseason was cost.
The cost and the handwringing when we're a bad football team doesn't add up for me. Rip the bandaid off and let's move fwd. I would've moved KG if the cap situation allowed it.
who is handwringing the decision? the only thing i'm handwringing is the notion that a public comment in february somehow impacted how much other teams felt bradberry could contribute to theirs.
the nyg moved on because the existing contract didn't align with their value of the player, and it turns out the rest of the NFL concurred. that doesn't make bradberry a trash player. as schoen said it was just an unfortunate situation.
There's a few in here worried about this decision, not referring to you, and I get it. But, the Giants need to move on and part of that will dictate things possibly being worse before it's better. I welcome it, let's GO.
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In comment 15712234 robbieballs2003 said:
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Get a comp for him in 2024.
He won't count toward the comp pick formula because he was a cut and it was past the deadline.
The Eagles cut him already? Interesting.
I was obviously referring to the fact that the Giants just released him. Players who are released do not count towards comp picks.
"Schoen can do no wrong!"
Better?
He can certainly do wrong. But the likely scenario here is that he says nothing and here we are on May 18th, with Bradberry signing with the Eagles anyway.
This is as benign as it gets. But hey, its something to talk about.
You seem to be arguing that the Giants had no other choice but to dump Bradberry.
That's simply not true.
? im arguing the exact opposite. they had a bunch of choices.
the NYG could have kept him but ultimately decided he wasn't a player worth keeping.
the NFL ultimately decided he was worth 1/2 the amount of money his previous contract had left on it.
both of those are facts without any conjecture necessary and it's silly to think either was in any way impacted by a public comment schoen made in february.
Definitely a yawn over an ugh…1 year rental of a 29 year old who got roasted by NFC east WRs.
You cant worry about a guy we cut. i liked Bradberry and wanted to keep him but he clearly wasnt part of the long term plan so better to see what we have and improve next year when we have more money.
You seem to be arguing that the Giants had no other choice but to dump Bradberry.
That's simply not true.
They had other options, but they chose the right one. Bradberry isn't part of the future here.
If I have a complaint about Schoen it's that more players should have gone Bradberry's route.
Do you think Gettleman would have handled the situation the same?
Of course not.
They were going to dump Bradberry at any cost. They didn't have to tell the NFL that.
I suspect the rest of the league was fully aware of what the Giants needed to do with their cap even before Schoen was hired. Schoen saying that didn't really change much, and he never had any leverage with Bradberry, and everyone knew that.
Bradberry was far more important to this team than Barkley, and RBs could have been found via the draft or in FA.
I am not arguing the Giants should or should not have kept Bradberry.
That's moot.
But Bradberry potentially had VALUE for teams looking for a veteran CB.
As a fan, it was great to hear in January that the Giants wanted to cut $40 million from their salary cap. But Schoen revealed his intentions at that point. He was not going to kick the can down the road, which MANY teams do. Once he revealed those plans, it was clear they were not going to keep Bradberry unless he accepted a paycut (unlikely).
The $40 million reduction was NOT inevitable. There were other ways to handle the cap. It would have been better for Schoen to not say anything about the team's cap plans.
The results are what we saw... before the draft, teams low-balled the Giants (Mara also didn't help matters when he said at the owners' meeting the team may have to cut Bradberry).
Would the results ultimately have been the same? Possible. But there was nothing to gain by revealing intentions. On the other hand, it might have hurt the team's ability to shop him before the draft.
It's water under the bridge at this point, but it was a rookie mistake.
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In comment 15712247 Essex said:
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as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
An intern could figure out how much cap we needed to save. Bradberry's agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't know the cap situations for each of his clients.
Schoen tried trading him, had offers, and I guess Bradberry didn't like the extension offers. So he chose to wait it out and sign a 1 year deal. Its fairly cut and dry. Schoen saying we needed to save money was a "no shit" statement.
He gave a dollar amount.
dude stop.
Schoen made it public so that people understood why he was about to cut Logan Ryan and not sign back Giants FA's also to validate why he could only get 1yr deal players at the start of FA.
Also it was already public knowledge.
Again stop
But Bradberry potentially had VALUE for teams looking for a veteran CB.
bradberry didn't have value at the contract he was on. to the nyg or other teams. period.
teams were willing to give up draft picks for him but he refused the extensions.
there were 11 teams who called him after he got because as you said they valued what he can do on the field - and with all that interest he got $7.5m cash - which proves the point that his prior contract the nyg were handcuffed to was pretty underwater since he would have cost an acquiring team 10m+ even if the nyg ate some $.
no amount of public posturing was going to change how the league valued him. the 40m comment by schoen had 0 impact on bradberry's trade market. his cap # did.
I’d imagine preferred outcome #1 was trade Bradberry for a mid round pick,
#2 agree to a substantially decreased 2022 cost, #3 cut him, #4 extend him, #5 do nothing.
Schoen should have come out publicly early and said we think James is a really good corner and we have all the tools to keep him. I’m always open to listen, but right now we’re planning on James playing really well for us this year.
And when Bradberry wouldn’t agree to terms with a new team, and the trade partners started drying up — he should have said the exact same thing again.
But again, there was no advantage to revealing plans.
And once Schoen talked trade with one team, word would spread throughout the league like it always does with every potential veteran that a team wants to trade.
How often do we here about a team that wants to trade a veteran and then they end up having to cut him? It's commonplace.
The only time it seem successful at all its a position like QB or pass rusher. Or Jaylen Ramsey... and Bradberry ain't Jalen Ramsey. Not even close.
I am not arguing the Giants should or should not have kept Bradberry.
That's moot.
But Bradberry potentially had VALUE for teams looking for a veteran CB.
As a fan, it was great to hear in January that the Giants wanted to cut $40 million from their salary cap. But Schoen revealed his intentions at that point. He was not going to kick the can down the road, which MANY teams do. Once he revealed those plans, it was clear they were not going to keep Bradberry unless he accepted a paycut (unlikely).
The $40 million reduction was NOT inevitable. There were other ways to handle the cap. It would have been better for Schoen to not say anything about the team's cap plans.
The results are what we saw... before the draft, teams low-balled the Giants (Mara also didn't help matters when he said at the owners' meeting the team may have to cut Bradberry).
Would the results ultimately have been the same? Possible. But there was nothing to gain by revealing intentions. On the other hand, it might have hurt the team's ability to shop him before the draft.
It's water under the bridge at this point, but it was a rookie mistake.
x 100
The other mistake was being so transparent about the Bradberry situation. Once that was telegraphed, I have to imagine most potential suitors concluded: "...unless we can get Bradberry for a very low draft pick and re-work his salary favorably, let's just wait to see if he's released. And then deal with Team Bradberry directly..."
Again, it's not a huge mistake by Schoen. But it smelled like a rookie misstep and one that I hope he learns from...
The Eagles have not signed all their draft picks so they need money for their contracts.
They will also need money for inseason contracts.
So expect some CAP maneuvering to keep them afloat.
What compounds the Eagles CAP problem is that they have $3,980,422 in CAP space next year and $24,487,575 in 2024.
They will not be able to extend contracts as they have no space available.
The Eagles must win this year or next to justify their CAP purgatory
Silver lining is that maybe it held the Texans off for trading for him, helping us get both KT and Neal.
I’d imagine preferred outcome #1 was trade Bradberry for a mid round pick,
#2 agree to a substantially decreased 2022 cost, #3 cut him, #4 extend him, #5 do nothing.
Schoen should have come out publicly early and said we think James is a really good corner and we have all the tools to keep him. I’m always open to listen, but right now we’re planning on James playing really well for us this year.
And when Bradberry wouldn’t agree to terms with a new team, and the trade partners started drying up — he should have said the exact same thing again.
he said this - he said he had contingency plans and when pressed on it he said he's been in contact with James' agents and they'd like to keep him.
the comment that's being made into a mountain was just as nebulous and non-specific as saying he had contingency plans.
the main people who kept saying bradberry's release were imminent were the beat writers who lacked an understanding of the market. they were writing those articles literally while schoen had accepted offers in hand from other teams that only fell apart because bradberry chose to play for less money this year to reach UFA next march. they lacked an understanding of the situation and created a false narrative that the whole world knew bradberry was going to get released. the houston texans didn't know that, they were willing to trade draft picks for him but immediately moved on to signing Steven Nelson for just 2.5m less guaranteed than Bradberry got when their negotiation was allegedly $5m apart.
There is nothing to gain in revealing plans publicly.
This reminds me of the argument I've had with Giants fans on this site who have argued "everyone knew who the Giants were going to draft, why are you so concerned they are indicating their intentions?"
Again, I kinda see your point but anyone can look at the cuts that left dead cap space, the FA departures and the 1 year deals and draw the obvious conclusion. The Giants were gutting the roster and getting rid of as many bad contracts as possible. I honestly don't see how his public stance is connected to his ability to trade Bradberry. His contract was untradeable as it was. There was no market for that contract. Bradberry wouldn't come to terms with a new team so he got cut. There was never an option for him to stay on that contract. I don't see how subterfuge would have changed the market conditions around JB and his contract. No one wanted it, which is again an indication that cutting him and getting out from the contract was probably necessary, if painful.
And as far as Schoen not having a track record, read this article and tell me if it sounds familiar. He was brought in to do a similar teardown and rebuild.
Schoen had no track record? Well, he was in buffalo - - ( New Window )
Bradberry did not want to be a Giant.
He could have resigned with the Giants by extending his contract with a voidable year.
He would have made more money and reduced his CAP hit to a palatable number. But he chose not to.
I do not think that Bradberry wanted to be on a rebuilding team and knew he had no future here.
In addition to his wanting to leave the team, he also did not ingratiate himself by not agreeing to signing a long term contract with Giants trade partners.
The Giants had to release him or they would have to deal with a disgruntled player who could destroy the team chemistry.
But again, there was no advantage to revealing plans.
was there an advantage saying neal and icky were 'side by side'? or that they had 6 they liked with an emergency #7? or that they had 160 players with draftable grades?
was there an advantage saying they were open to trading down or would it have been better posturing to say they would only do so if blown away?
was there an advantage to saying they were open for business and willing to talk about any player on their roster, including in answer to questions about specific players?
they get asked questions, they give answers, none of it actually impacts decisions they or any other team makes. if they liked bradberry more they'd have kept him. if other teams liked bradberry more they'd have given him the contract he wanted.
i personally appreciate that schoen seems to be pretty forthright and smart in the answers he gives.
I don't think there's a realistic scenario where paying Barkley makes sense. Even if he has a massive statistical year, a look around the league tells us that paying running backs is folly.
And that's the high end of the range of possible outcomes. More likely his low current value will only depreciate further, and in December 2022 we'll be wishing we had traded him in April 2022 for whatever we could get.
I wish Schoen had been more aggressive in ripping this down. It's going to happen anyway.
Is Barkley's rookie year worth the same thing Marquez Valdez Scantling cost the Chiefs or Evan Engram cost the Jags? that question answers itself.
the question is how degraded physically is he from the player he was his rookie year? which i think is what jonc is saying is worth finding out (i agree).
29 years old is right around the age that most corners begin trending downwards. JB already showed signs of regression last year.
Still not a reason to pay him though. Slot receivers grow on trees in college.
Still not a reason to pay him though. Slot receivers grow on trees in college.
grow on trees yes but also getting picked in the first or second round in abundance. is a first or second round pick worth a 10m cap hit?
as a rookie barkley had 9 plays go 40+ yards which was among the most in the NFL - even compared to WRs (that's tied with the most tyreek hill had in his best season for example).
he tied Randy Moss as the only other rookie to have 5 tds 50+ yards.
he broke the rookie record for receptions by a RB and hit the fastest ball carrier GPS speeds other than Tyreek Hill.
if they didn't have a role in mind for him they wouldn't have kept him and my guess is that it's going to be hybrid. again just a guess but i think he will get 10 or so carries per game and 5+ receptions from all different alignments - wide, slot, backfield, jet motion - obviously health withstanding.
the notion that daboll didn't use his running backs is also a bit off - he didn't use 1 specific running back a lot but he did use his committee a good amount. last year's bills offense had about 100 targets to RBs, with only Beasley (112) and Diggs (164) the only targets getting more than that. the RB number doesn't count McKenzie so it may actually be a bit higher.
Is Barkley's rookie year worth the same thing Marquez Valdez Scantling cost the Chiefs or Evan Engram cost the Jags? that question answers itself.
the question is how degraded physically is he from the player he was his rookie year? which i think is what jonc is saying is worth finding out (i agree).
Interesting point, although as an aside, i think the WR market is looney and will be unsustainable. Wouldn't touch those contracts unless i was about to win the SB and had decent cap space. But good point about using him as a faux WR (we might need to given our underwhelming crop).
I am not arguing the Giants should or should not have kept Bradberry.
That's moot.
But Bradberry potentially had VALUE for teams looking for a veteran CB.
As a fan, it was great to hear in January that the Giants wanted to cut $40 million from their salary cap. But Schoen revealed his intentions at that point. He was not going to kick the can down the road, which MANY teams do. Once he revealed those plans, it was clear they were not going to keep Bradberry unless he accepted a paycut (unlikely).
The $40 million reduction was NOT inevitable. There were other ways to handle the cap. It would have been better for Schoen to not say anything about the team's cap plans.
The results are what we saw... before the draft, teams low-balled the Giants (Mara also didn't help matters when he said at the owners' meeting the team may have to cut Bradberry).
Would the results ultimately have been the same? Possible. But there was nothing to gain by revealing intentions. On the other hand, it might have hurt the team's ability to shop him before the draft.
It's water under the bridge at this point, but it was a rookie mistake.
Eric has a point here despite it being likely that other teams/agents already knowing what the NYG were likely to do. No reason to cement it.
I'm all for getting him out of the backfield and getting the ball in his hands 5-8 yards past the LOS. All for it.
Remember also what Schoen has said about paying premium positions.
Is that not proof enough that whatever Shoen said really had no impact?
@SharpFootball
the Giants have a larger dead cap hit ($11.7M) to have James Bradberry play for the Eagles than the Eagles are actually paying him ($10M)
thanks for all you did Dave Gettleman
Let’s all just “move on” though.
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Warren Sharp
@SharpFootball
the Giants have a larger dead cap hit ($11.7M) to have James Bradberry play for the Eagles than the Eagles are actually paying him ($10M)
thanks for all you did Dave Gettleman
Let’s all just “move on” though.
Nope.
And that's the high end of the range of possible outcomes. More likely his low current value will only depreciate further, and in December 2022 we'll be wishing we had traded him in April 2022 for whatever we could get.
Fortunately, there will be a second window at the trade deadline this year. If SB is playing well and healthy, it would be foolish not to pull all the stops to find a buyer.
There continues to be a long learning curve here at BBI with posters who just can't see the light and how fungible the RB position is.
As far as I'm concerned, the best way to build the RB position is by committee only, like New England, Ravens, etc. I'd love to have a Derrick Henry, but he is rare and from another galaxy.
Is that not proof enough that whatever Shoen said really had no impact?
exactly right. teams liked him but not at the price the nyg had him.
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And that's the high end of the range of possible outcomes. More likely his low current value will only depreciate further, and in December 2022 we'll be wishing we had traded him in April 2022 for whatever we could get.
Fortunately, there will be a second window at the trade deadline this year. If SB is playing well and healthy, it would be foolish not to pull all the stops to find a buyer.
There continues to be a long learning curve here at BBI with posters who just can't see the light and how fungible the RB position is.
As far as I'm concerned, the best way to build the RB position is by committee only, like New England, Ravens, etc. I'd love to have a Derrick Henry, but he is rare and from another galaxy.
Is that not proof enough that whatever Shoen said really had no impact?
Meanwhile, in New England, Belichick says absolutely nothing about his strategy and constantly pulls off trades, despite his reputation as an aggressive trader who has a great touch with moving players at their expiration date.
@AngryNFLInsider
·
6h
James Bradberry to the #Eagles is a nice get for them. Eagles truly do have the best roster in the NFC East. Dave Gettlemans mess continues to haunt the #Giants in many ways. #NFL
The more trades, cuts, and cap pain in 2022 the better. That points to a better 2023 and beyond.
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The Giants had offers to trade him. This is reported news. The reason a trade didn't happen is teams could not come to an agreement with Bradberry's agent on contract terms.
Is that not proof enough that whatever Shoen said really had no impact?
Meanwhile, in New England, Belichick says absolutely nothing about his strategy and constantly pulls off trades, despite his reputation as an aggressive trader who has a great touch with moving players at their expiration date.
What's the comparison here? This is not a "shoen didn't get it done" situation to me. He has no control over what Bradberry's agent wants or what the Chiefs or other teams want to offer Bradberry's agent. Those trades are out of his hands. He said himself they had deals in place.
Team has multiple options. 1. they can trade his contract if another team will take it. 2. they can kick the can down the road and let him play 3. they can restructure 4. they can cut him etc.
Schoen told the world what option he was taking, so Bradberry had no incentive to play along with the trade aspect of it, he was getting cut as he knew and he could control his own destiny. If Schoen keeps his cards close to his vest, Bradberry's agent has to guess what the Giants will do.
Again, there was no upside on going on a press tour and announcing we are clearing 40 million in cap.
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The Giants had offers to trade him. This is reported news. The reason a trade didn't happen is teams could not come to an agreement with Bradberry's agent on contract terms.
Is that not proof enough that whatever Shoen said really had no impact?
Meanwhile, in New England, Belichick says absolutely nothing about his strategy and constantly pulls off trades, despite his reputation as an aggressive trader who has a great touch with moving players at their expiration date.
should have hired someone with the NE pedigree.
Team has multiple options. 1. they can trade his contract if another team will take it. 2. they can kick the can down the road and let him play 3. they can restructure 4. they can cut him etc.
Schoen told the world what option he was taking, so Bradberry had no incentive to play along with the trade aspect of it, he was getting cut as he knew and he could control his own destiny. If Schoen keeps his cards close to his vest, Bradberry's agent has to guess what the Giants will do.
Again, there was no upside on going on a press tour and announcing we are clearing 40 million in cap.
this makes no sense. bradberry's agent was specifically motivated to try to accommodate the nyg situation precisely because he knew he was on the chopping block. you realize Bradberry lost almost $6m this year because of how things went right? he did not come out of this a winner by any stretch of the imagination.
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blabbing his mouth about our cap strategy. They best they can come up with is "it did not matter." Nobody here is definitively saying that it did, my point and I think others have been, there was no upside to blabbing.
Team has multiple options. 1. they can trade his contract if another team will take it. 2. they can kick the can down the road and let him play 3. they can restructure 4. they can cut him etc.
Schoen told the world what option he was taking, so Bradberry had no incentive to play along with the trade aspect of it, he was getting cut as he knew and he could control his own destiny. If Schoen keeps his cards close to his vest, Bradberry's agent has to guess what the Giants will do.
Again, there was no upside on going on a press tour and announcing we are clearing 40 million in cap.
this makes no sense. bradberry's agent was specifically motivated to try to accommodate the nyg situation precisely because he knew he was on the chopping block. you realize Bradberry lost almost $6m this year because of how things went right? he did not come out of this a winner by any stretch of the imagination.
if you are looking at this for one year it doesn't make sense, but that was not what Bradberry was doing. But Bradberry clearly was not looking at this for 2022, his entire game was his next contract. He wanted to control where he played. Bradberry turned down more money to take the Eagles offer. Bradberry and his agent weren't playing the short game here.
Meanwhile, in New England, Belichick says absolutely nothing about his strategy and constantly pulls off trades, despite his reputation as an aggressive trader who has a great touch with moving players at their expiration date.
What's the comparison here? This is not a "shoen didn't get it done" situation to me. He has no control over what Bradberry's agent wants or what the Chiefs or other teams want to offer Bradberry's agent. Those trades are out of his hands. He said himself they had deals in place.
Why isn't this on Schoen? Bradberry didn't have a no-trade clause where it limited Schoen's market.
By tipping his hand early in the process, Schoen lost his leverage with the market and Bradberry because it was clear that the Giants were desperate for a conclusion one way or the other. And a release was inevitable.
So, any potential partner and Team Bradberry could drag their feet and just wait for that release firewall.
it's rumored he wanted $5m more than Houston was willing to go on an extension per year, my guess is the league was willing to pay him close to 10m AAV but he wanted $15m, and he turned it down thinking he had more leverage than he had (possibly including thinking the nyg were bluffing about cutting him outright).
either way his retweet would seemingly imply he didn't view the giants actions as "giving him what he wanted".
Aaron Wilson
@AaronWilson_NFL
Texans and former Giants corner James Bradberry were at least $5 million apart in contract discussion in prospective trade talks, per league sources. Not expected to be revisited after team drafted Derek Stingley Jr. third overall and signed veteran corner Steven Nelson.
their presumed pivot Steven Nelson got 2 years, 9m announced on april 13th.
I don't think it's a stretch to assume their multi-year offer to Bradberry was somewhere between 5-10m in AAV and then his demand another 5m+ higher than that number.
Giants, Texans Had James Bradberry Trade In Place - ( New Window )
Even Howie probably had the script laid out
He wasn't sniffing 13.4M as a Giant the moment Gettleman retired. That's a non-starter. He actually wasn't sniffing that after giving up a league high 8 TDs.
He's got a path to 10M this year, chose his destination, and is an UFA.
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In comment 15712672 bw in dc said:
Meanwhile, in New England, Belichick says absolutely nothing about his strategy and constantly pulls off trades, despite his reputation as an aggressive trader who has a great touch with moving players at their expiration date.
What's the comparison here? This is not a "shoen didn't get it done" situation to me. He has no control over what Bradberry's agent wants or what the Chiefs or other teams want to offer Bradberry's agent. Those trades are out of his hands. He said himself they had deals in place.
Why isn't this on Schoen? Bradberry didn't have a no-trade clause where it limited Schoen's market.
By tipping his hand early in the process, Schoen lost his leverage with the market and Bradberry because it was clear that the Giants were desperate for a conclusion one way or the other. And a release was inevitable.
So, any potential partner and Team Bradberry could drag their feet and just wait for that release firewall.
I really think you're imagining leverage that never existed. It's not about a no trade clause. Several teams made offers. The Giants were happy with the compensation they would have gotten if Bradberry could have signed an extension deal. That was the turning point, not that the Giants somehow failed to properly mask their intentions.
Again, there was no upside on going on a press tour and announcing we are clearing 40 million in cap.
I think you're turning this into a Hollywood poker showdown. You don't have to be a CIA agent to know the Giant weren't going to be able to keep the player at his cost. The player told you he wasn't re-negotiating his deal after making restructures in previous years. There was never a threat of "well we'll just keep you". The Giants couldn'tfinancially go along with his money going into the league year. They needed his cap money.
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In comment 15712678 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15712672 bw in dc said:
Meanwhile, in New England, Belichick says absolutely nothing about his strategy and constantly pulls off trades, despite his reputation as an aggressive trader who has a great touch with moving players at their expiration date.
What's the comparison here? This is not a "shoen didn't get it done" situation to me. He has no control over what Bradberry's agent wants or what the Chiefs or other teams want to offer Bradberry's agent. Those trades are out of his hands. He said himself they had deals in place.
Why isn't this on Schoen? Bradberry didn't have a no-trade clause where it limited Schoen's market.
By tipping his hand early in the process, Schoen lost his leverage with the market and Bradberry because it was clear that the Giants were desperate for a conclusion one way or the other. And a release was inevitable.
So, any potential partner and Team Bradberry could drag their feet and just wait for that release firewall.
I really think you're imagining leverage that never existed. It's not about a no trade clause. Several teams made offers. The Giants were happy with the compensation they would have gotten if Bradberry could have signed an extension deal. That was the turning point, not that the Giants somehow failed to properly mask their intentions.
and in the process bradberry ended up with a 3-6m paycut.
the people who may have misplayed this are bradberry and his agent.
He wasn't sniffing 13.4M as a Giant the moment Gettleman retired. That's a non-starter. He actually wasn't sniffing that after giving up a league high 8 TDs.
He's got a path to 10M this year, chose his destination, and is an UFA.
the path to 10m is expected to be not likely to be earned by definition for cap purposes, which means something has to go better this year than last year like making the pro bowl.
the path to getting the kind of multi-year deal he seems to want next year is similar.
so if you are on the side of thinking he wasn't very good last year and is in decline, wouldn't you also think passing on a multi-year extension above $7.5m AAV for a 1 year deal at that amount was a mistake?
there is only 1 way team bradberry crushes it - and that's him turning back the clock to 2020 having another career-best season. this move is a gamble and it's odds of success are essentially whatever the odds you think he has to make the pro bowl this year.
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In comment 15712267 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15712247 Essex said:
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as much as we are in the honeymoon period, he did not have to tell the world how much money he wanted to cut from cap. That was an unforced error that he did not need to make public. But, he did and all the actors in the Bradberry saga knew this and they acted accordingly.
An intern could figure out how much cap we needed to save. Bradberry's agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't know the cap situations for each of his clients.
Schoen tried trading him, had offers, and I guess Bradberry didn't like the extension offers. So he chose to wait it out and sign a 1 year deal. Its fairly cut and dry. Schoen saying we needed to save money was a "no shit" statement.
He gave a dollar amount.
dude stop.
Schoen made it public so that people understood why he was about to cut Logan Ryan and not sign back Giants FA's also to validate why he could only get 1yr deal players at the start of FA.
Also it was already public knowledge.
Again stop
point of fact, cutting logan ryan saved nothing, and may in fact cost more then keeping him.
I don't think announcing what he wanted to cut dollar wise was neccessary or particularly smart, but I don't think it was a blunder. The blunder is what happened next. JB situation was mishandled. The CB situation was either a bad plan, a poorly exucated plan, or no plan. The secondary in general is counting on a lot of things we have never seen, with no depth, and little competition
1) Maybe the extra 2.5M is all NLTB, maybe it’s not
2) We both know making a pro bowl is not a prerequisite for 10M AAV for a corner, especially next offseason
3) We don’t know the guarantees or structure of any extension he was offered elsewhere
4) He got to choose his destination, and secured 7.5M in guarantees after the draft
Bradberry bet on himself, picks his destination, and gets a shot to prove he’s not in decline. That’s a great outcome for him.
He’s had a million chances to secure a contract for the 2023 season since he signed with the Giants. It’s obvious he wants to reach UFA.
or is he now all of a sudden a good bet to bounce back big enough to get paid entering his age 30 season?
just to contextualize how tall a task Bradberry has ahead of him there are only about 20 corners over $10m, and only 1 of them was 30 years old+ at signing (Gilmore who signed for 2/20m in April). Gilmore's actually the only a30+ corner at the time of signing for over $6m+ AAV.
the extension Gilmore signed is likely similar to the deals Bradberry passed on in April, ending up with less this year with nothing guaranteed in the future on low % play to do better next year. if i was his agent i'd have told him to take advantage of whatever leverage he had then because the odds are he probably won't get it again.
Good luck to him. Hope they go 0-16 though.
Untrue - the Giants had deals for Bradberry. Bradberry turned down extensions from a few teams who wanted to take him.