We'll have to see how this works itself out, but the effort to improve the OL, including using both free agency and the draft was certainly there. Three offensive linemen alone were drafted.
Oline is the position group that most benefits from playing time together. Thomas, Glowinski, and Neal should all be starting for the next 3 years. Add a fourth player in Ezudu if he hits. And would anyone be surprised if Gates or Feliciano is extended after the season? This is a group that, if everyone stays healthy, can be playing together for a long time
People always complained about Reese and Gettleman
not addressing the OL. I always said that wasn't true. They addressed it. The problem was basically every decision was a miss.
With that said, if the definition of addressing the OL was adding 10 new guys to the group then neither Reese of Gettleman addressed the OL. Lol.
This was a great job. They knew the market. They understood where we stood in the draft. There was a definite plan. They stood by that plan. Now, we just need to hope it yields results. That's what will decide if this was the right approach.
I'm no expert on hog mollies, but there's some serious beef in that line by adding Neal (6-7 and 350lbs), McKethan (6-6.5 and 340), and if they keep Ben Adler for center, he's huge.
it's more likely in some part because he cut $40M he was able to add pieces to the roster. Obviously there were draft picks, but the rest were enabled by the cuts.
Is still TBD but Schoen at least shows some understanding of bargain shopping. Do I want a team hinging its future on guys like Feliciano and Garcia, no, but they’re good to have around for a year while draft picks develop and they really don’t cost a whole lot.
I don’t feel like the last admin put a whole lot of value in these types of players, they were too comfortable to just say “well we drafted Peart, we’re fine”.
The team wasn't a contender, but they overhauled the roster and found many key pieces. After some hits in free agency and the draft in 2005, it kicked off eight straight years in which the Giants were .500 or better.
It takes numbers. You don’t get four starters and multiple backups without brining in numbers of players. A FA here, a trade there, a draft pick once in a while isn’t getting it done as we saw. And for the folks here that said not getting an OL in the first round wasn’t that big a deal. Seems Schoen disagrees.
schoen prioritized OL in a way nobody has in the org in 3 decades
even the great OL in 2007, it's easy to forget that moving Diehl from G after cutting Petigout was more of a desperate move dictated by the cap. and before that forget about it remember all those years Accorsi gave mcnally nothing but retreads and UDFAs?
Schoen spent the 2 biggest cap #'s to FAs on OL and 2 of the 4 highest draft picks - plus all the other low cost depth signings. the effort was there in a way we haven't seen before, need to hope the execution was too.
My hat's off to Schoen. That's some job he's done. There's now a bunch of guys on short contracts competing for their next payday....not like the 'scholarships' they were handing out under the old regime. And to think that Dallas, Philly and even WTF came in here every year and put on an OL Clinic.
Is it too early to project next year's Cap ?? Estimated Dead money in 2023 ? Room for a Free Agent splurge ??
My hat's off to Schoen. That's some job he's done. There's now a bunch of guys on short contracts competing for their next payday....not like the 'scholarships' they were handing out under the old regime. And to think that Dallas, Philly and even WTF came in here every year and put on an OL Clinic.
Is it too early to project next year's Cap ?? Estimated Dead money in 2023 ? Room for a Free Agent splurge ??
going forward the cap is clean. they are top 5 in effective cap space which nets out signing the draft picks.
Jackson, Williams, Golladay will basically be in the same position as Bradberry was this year but schoen will have money to spend whether he wants to keep them or move on (and create more money to spend).
Ernie went cheap for six years, convinced that a good left tackle and four nobodies would be good enough. Even the grizzled vets on the 2000 line were something of a dumpster dive, though it worked pretty well for a year. He finally started investing in 2004 and 2005 (Snee and especially McKenzie). O’Hara, Diehl and Seubert were bargain finds.
Jerry invested heavily, with big contracts for the 2007 Champs, plus subsequent acquisitions via free agency and the draft. Unfortunately for Jerry, nothing he tried ended well.
My hat's off to Schoen. That's some job he's done. There's now a bunch of guys on short contracts competing for their next payday....not like the 'scholarships' they were handing out under the old regime. And to think that Dallas, Philly and even WTF came in here every year and put on an OL Clinic.
Is it too early to project next year's Cap ?? Estimated Dead money in 2023 ? Room for a Free Agent splurge ??
Cap situation is very fluid, but we are $50M+ in cap space in 2023, basically the 5th most in the NFL.
Bears are basically 2X more than us. So, if Fields somehow manages to do well this year (and if you think Jones has had bad rosters, look at what Fields is dealing with...) I suspect there will be serious interest to play in Chi-town.
BBB this may be bias towards Coughlin but i think snee/mckenzie
were out of character additions for the franchise and were probably moves made because Coughlin came in pushing to build a more physical team like he did in Jax (Boselli/Searcy was a key part of his success there). As you astutely pointed out, Accorsi's way was much more shoestring.
Reese and DG both inherited that mentality from EA without realizing how lucky they got with that 07-10 OL. The moment either of them didn't feel desperation to fix it they neglected it like choosing Marshall over Whitworth in 2017 and dumping Zeitler last year.
Eric on LI: unless the whole organization lied in 2004…
…Coughlin had little involvement in the Snee pick, other than green-lighting it after Reese (running his second draft) recommended targeting Chris and learned about the awkward family situation.
I agree with your broader point that Coughlin contributed to the change in philosophy. Ironically, the biggest beneficiary from 2004-2006 was Jim Fassel’s favorite “finesse” player, Tiki Barber.
He signed some Jag o-linemen who wanted to sign quickly but considering how desperate the rest of the league is for o-line talent, if a few of the rookies can beat out the veterans for starting and backup slots, the Giants may actually be able to acquire some late round draft picks for excess veteran linemen.
When was the last time anything like that happened?
Ernie went cheap for six years, convinced that a good left tackle and four nobodies would be good enough. Even the grizzled vets on the 2000 line were something of a dumpster dive, though it worked pretty well for a year. He finally started investing in 2004 and 2005 (Snee and especially McKenzie). O’Hara, Diehl and Seubert were bargain finds.
Jerry invested heavily, with big contracts for the 2007 Champs, plus subsequent acquisitions via free agency and the draft. Unfortunately for Jerry, nothing he tried ended well.
I’m not arguing with you but Diehl was a 5th round pick. The bargain (steal really) was that he could play and played 4 different line positions.
at most 7 or 8 of them make the roster. If Gates is able to play, I suspect he gets a spot, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lemieux or Peart if he is able does as well. Not saying that is a problem, bringing in 10 new guys to compete for 6 or so spots is sensible given the state of the line last year, along with the collection of wounded players, and none of them really would cause cap problems if cut. But there is no way they all make the roster.
It's one thing to throw resources at the OL problem
…Coughlin had little involvement in the Snee pick, other than green-lighting it after Reese (running his second draft) recommended targeting Chris and learned about the awkward family situation.
I agree with your broader point that Coughlin contributed to the change in philosophy. Ironically, the biggest beneficiary from 2004-2006 was Jim Fassel’s favorite “finesse” player, Tiki Barber.
yeah im not saying he specifically identified either or even campaigned for them individually, just the overall sea change to prioritize a real power guard with a high pick and paying big $ for a RT.
i think it was 1 of those same offseasons that they also signed Norman Hand, which was another type of player they hadn't had previously.
They could have done. It’s like an old married couple that knows what each other wants before they do. At least that’s the vibe I get. Daboll has to do his part now but schoen has done everything he can possibly do to not only get daboll what he needs but most importantly without sacrificing the future with stupid ass deals. And as far as the op goes the most offensive thing dg di in my opinion was with how bad our oline has been and you don’t draft even 1 guy ? Not one ? He should of been let go immediately
From $40M over the Cap to 5th most Cap space....in one off-season That's astounding !
How does Roy Mbaeteka's contract fit into this whole thing ? If I recall, he signed a 3 year deal, but will probably be on the Practice Squad this year ? Can he be poached off the PS ?
Than DG did over the course of 4 years. Can't wait to see how they play but IT CAN NOT GET WORSE than Solder, Hernandez, Omameh, Remmers or Flemming... LT Thomas LG Lemeiux/Ezeudu C Feliciano RG Glowinski RT Neal + Gates, Peart, Gono and others for depth... easily better on paper, should be a ton better on the field too. Saquon and Daniel finally have a decent OL for the first time.
Tackle
78 A. Thomas
79 K. Cunningham
62 D. Hamilton
Guard
66 S. Lemieux
72 M. Garcia
75 J. Ezeudu
67 J. Rivas
Center
76 J. Feliciano
77 J. Douglas
65 N. Gates
Guard
64 M. Glowinski
68 B. Bredeson
60 M. McKethan
Tackle
70 E. Neal
73 M. Gono
74 M. Peart
61 R. Mbaeteka
17 guys for what I think are probably 9 slots on the 53 (8 on game day) plus 2 on the PS. So 6 of these 17 gonzo. I think Gates and Peart get PUP'd. So that leaves 4 outright cuts IMV.
How does Roy Mbaeteka's contract fit into this whole thing ? If I recall, he signed a 3 year deal, but will probably be on the Practice Squad this year ? Can he be poached off the PS ?
Before he can join the practice squad, Mbaeteka must clear waivers. That 24-hour period is the only time another team can flat-out claim him. Once he is signed to the practice squad, he retains the rights of a free agent. He can sign with another team at any time, but he doesn't have to. In theory, the Giants could counter with an offer to promote him, or simply give him more money to remain on the practice squad. Or he might see the Giants as his best long-term opportunity, and choose to stay here for a lower salary and fewer benefits.
As a practical matter, nearly all PS players who get roster offers take them. The difference in pay and security is too good to turn down. One rare exception was Josh Rosen, who was obviously a unique case because of his massive guarantees and his personal circumstances.
You're right that Mbaeteka is ticketed for the practice squad. It's no coincidence that his salary guarantee exactly equals 18 weeks of practice squad pay.
RE: People always complained about Reese and Gettleman
not addressing the OL. I always said that wasn't true. They addressed it. The problem was basically every decision was a miss.
With that said, if the definition of addressing the OL was adding 10 new guys to the group then neither Reese of Gettleman addressed the OL. Lol.
This was a great job. They knew the market. They understood where we stood in the draft. There was a definite plan. They stood by that plan. Now, we just need to hope it yields results. That's what will decide if this was the right approach.
What you and others said was idiotic because throwing bodies at the OL isn’t what people mean by addressing it. That’s what both regimes essentially did with low round fliers, projects, and dumpster diving FAs.
Gettleman did a shit job but he was actually worlds better than Reese regarding the OL considering what he added over 4 years and what Reese added over a decade. Reese was criminally terrible.
That said, it’s still TBD with this regime but they should at least be one piece closer with the addition of Neal.
I hope the confidence in Evan Neal isn’t misplaced.
If he were anything like a sure thing, he would have gone higher than #7, and would have been the first OT off the board. The most likely scenario is a year or two of ups and downs before he settles in. That’s the norm, even for top-ten picks, including our own Andrew Thomas. We can hope for a Tristan Wirfs-type debut; I just don’t think we can expect it. And one can’t discount the possibility of another Luke Joeckel or Greg Robinson - or, closer to home, Ereck Flowers - though Neal would find his own, unique path to the long list of NFL busts.
RE: I hope the confidence in Evan Neal isn’t misplaced.
If he were anything like a sure thing, he would have gone higher than #7, and would have been the first OT off the board. The most likely scenario is a year or two of ups and downs before he settles in. That’s the norm, even for top-ten picks, including our own Andrew Thomas. We can hope for a Tristan Wirfs-type debut; I just don’t think we can expect it. And one can’t discount the possibility of another Luke Joeckel or Greg Robinson - or, closer to home, Ereck Flowers - though Neal would find his own, unique path to the long list of NFL busts.
Why was Wirfs 4th OT off the board? Why didn’t he have his ups and downs? Very few players are SURE things, so not understanding the point of this post. Who is claiming Neal is a sure thing?
Confidence in a highly drafted rookie is pretty normal for fans. Maybe more-so for a player at a position of great need for an extended period of time. The worst case scenario when I do that is disappointment which was self inflicted.
We try to learn from it and approach a bit differently next time 😊
but the OL room is now arguably the deepest part of the team, which is pretty incredible. There are credible replacement level starters in the interior and the pipeline is full of young guys. Schoen has started what DG promised on day one and never delivered.
RE: People always complained about Reese and Gettleman
not addressing the OL. I always said that wasn't true. They addressed it. The problem was basically every decision was a miss.
With that said, if the definition of addressing the OL was adding 10 new guys to the group then neither Reese of Gettleman addressed the OL. Lol.
This was a great job. They knew the market. They understood where we stood in the draft. There was a definite plan. They stood by that plan. Now, we just need to hope it yields results. That's what will decide if this was the right approach.
Agree Robbie. Finally a FO understanding how dire the situation was with what we were trotting out there on the OL, and trying to actually fix the problem.
RE: People always complained about Reese and Gettleman
not addressing the OL. I always said that wasn't true. They addressed it. The problem was basically every decision was a miss.
With that said, if the definition of addressing the OL was adding 10 new guys to the group then neither Reese of Gettleman addressed the OL. Lol.
This was a great job. They knew the market. They understood where we stood in the draft. There was a definite plan. They stood by that plan. Now, we just need to hope it yields results. That's what will decide if this was the right approach.
Tend to agree with these same sentiments, except will hold off on calling it a great job until we see what it indeed yields as you suggested.
To me Schoen approached this logically and executed accordingly based on the resources he was given. He added some credible, albeit cheaper, veterans to the interior line in free agency; highlighted positional importance in Tackle spot with the #7 overall pick and then rounded out depth/versatility with a few more OL picks on Day 2 and Day 3.
A great job is when we witness some semblence of this OL stabilized, consistently supporting scoring drives and not just falling apart when injuries/dings result in some pivots. That is when we will know Schoen has better evaluation skills and the coaches are handling their development adequately.
RE: I hope the confidence in Evan Neal isn’t misplaced.
From a talent stand point. We have a lot of players on the line but most are bottom roster transition players and late round draft picks.
I like the idea of adding as many as possible and hopefully hitting on a couple but past Front offices have struck out also.
I have faith in this front office until I don't
A TE who can block as well as run routes and catch
would be nice. Not sure how the H-back fits in here. I tend to view the H-back as the worst of both worlds. Too small to block like a TE and too slow to run routes like a TE.
RE: RE: People always complained about Reese and Gettleman
Gettleman did a shit job but he was actually worlds better than Reese regarding the OL considering what he added over 4 years and what Reese added over a decade. Reese was criminally terrible.
I think it's misleading to claim that DG did more to address the OL than Reese. I broke Reese's final eight years up into two four-year blocks so that each would be comparable with Gettleman's four-year tenure.
The players added by Reese were, for the most part, poor choices and significantly impacted by injuries. DG has some stinkers in there also:
-------------------------
REESE:
2010-13
DRAFT
Mitch Petrus (2010 - 5)
James Brewer (2011 - 4)
Brandon Mosley (2012 - 4)
Matt McCants (2012 - 6)
Justin Pugh (2013 - 1)
Eric Herman (2013 - 7)
I couldn't find a reliable listing of UDFA from year to year, so I don't have them listed here - as a result, Gates doesn't appear on this list, but it would be unfair to not credit Gates to DG's ledger (although hitting on a UDFA requires a good deal of luck).
Aside from that, do the lists above really support the notion that DG did all that much more to address the OL than Reese?
they both did about the same and further if you grabbed EA's 8 years
pre coughlin they'd look similarly crappy too. 1 or 2 good draft picks and a bunch of a stop gap free agents. robert gallery was the OG thirst trap savior. or maybe ogden.
the OL from 2007-2010 was the single biggest outlier of the last 30 years of nyg football. a happy accident. neither reese or gettleman truly understood the magnitude of importance.
Again, throwing bodies at the OL shouldn’t qualify as addressing it. Addressing it is turning it from shitty to not shitty.
In 4 years, Gettleman potentially added 3 quality starters — Thomas, Gates (we’ll see on injury), and Lemieux (we’ll see this year). That’s a better result than Reese over a much shorter time period.
How many quality OL did Reese add during his entire tenure? MAYBE 3 ok players?
Again, throwing bodies at the OL shouldn’t qualify as addressing it. Addressing it is turning it from shitty to not shitty.
In 4 years, Gettleman potentially added 3 quality starters — Thomas, Gates (we’ll see on injury), and Lemieux (we’ll see this year). That’s a better result than Reese over a much shorter time period.
How many quality OL did Reese add during his entire tenure? MAYBE 3 ok players?
Not here to defend Reese but:
Beatty was a competent LT
Pugh has ended up a competent starter
Flowers/Hart even got a few contracts
Baas helped them get to the SB
Andrews was a monster if he didn't quit football
i think it's fair to say Gettleman's hit rate was a little higher since Reese had so many outright busts in the draft. You left off Zeitler who was one of Gettleman's best pick ups, but that's a double edged sword bc it was also probably his worst decision last offseason.
bottom line neither of them did a good enough job on the OL and it was probably both of their undoings, along with hiring bad head coaches.
Not sure why we're discussing DG doing a better job
Lemieux, has talent. Got the starting job in part because there was zero young talent on this roster to push.
Hernandez, washout. Likely a career backup.
Gates, looks like a hit
Zeitler, got him in trade because you were desperate for OL. Traded him away and got worse at OL.
Solder, LOL. Forced to start at RT despite severe decline because...
Matt Peart, a top-100 pick is apparently unplayable even in an emergency.
Your depth guys were borderline players in their 30s who quickly filed for retirement, leaving you with nothing because you never had young players.
You lose two key starters to injury - that happens.
You have nothing to replace them with - that's a bad job
You have to go outside the organization midseason for trades for scraps - laughable.
RE: Not sure why we're discussing DG doing a better job
Than anyone when last year happened purely out of arrogance over the OL.
Losing Gates and Lemieux to injury, making the OL worse by trading their best lineman, and having no depth whatsoever isn't a good job.
We have gone through this numerous times. Gettleman actually allowed a disinvestment in the OL from 2020 to 2021 and many here mentioned that was a risky strategy going into summer camp.
Then they had a few retirements/injuries and panic set in since Judge wound up cutting many of the reserves. And the front office went scrambling for a few extra O-linemen at the last second.
Again, throwing bodies at the OL shouldn’t qualify as addressing it. Addressing it is turning it from shitty to not shitty.
In 4 years, Gettleman potentially added 3 quality starters — Thomas, Gates (we’ll see on injury), and Lemieux (we’ll see this year). That’s a better result than Reese over a much shorter time period.
How many quality OL did Reese add during his entire tenure? MAYBE 3 ok players?
Not here to defend Reese but:
Beatty was a competent LT
Pugh has ended up a competent starter
Flowers/Hart even got a few contracts
Baas helped them get to the SB
Andrews was a monster if he didn't quit football
i think it's fair to say Gettleman's hit rate was a little higher since Reese had so many outright busts in the draft. You left off Zeitler who was one of Gettleman's best pick ups, but that's a double edged sword bc it was also probably his worst decision last offseason.
bottom line neither of them did a good enough job on the OL and it was probably both of their undoings, along with hiring bad head coaches.
Like I said, maybe 3 OK players. You’re scrambling to find anything decent over a 10 year stretch of off-seasons.
Gettleman, for all of his warts, might’ve landed 3 high end starters in 4 years. We’ll see.
None of this is really the point though. My point is “addressing the OL” doesn’t mean dick if the standard for “addressing” is adding a couple draft picks and FAs every year who don’t pan out.
Again, throwing bodies at the OL shouldn’t qualify as addressing it. Addressing it is turning it from shitty to not shitty.
In 4 years, Gettleman potentially added 3 quality starters — Thomas, Gates (we’ll see on injury), and Lemieux (we’ll see this year). That’s a better result than Reese over a much shorter time period.
How many quality OL did Reese add during his entire tenure? MAYBE 3 ok players?
Not here to defend Reese but:
Beatty was a competent LT
Pugh has ended up a competent starter
Flowers/Hart even got a few contracts
Baas helped them get to the SB
Andrews was a monster if he didn't quit football
i think it's fair to say Gettleman's hit rate was a little higher since Reese had so many outright busts in the draft. You left off Zeitler who was one of Gettleman's best pick ups, but that's a double edged sword bc it was also probably his worst decision last offseason.
bottom line neither of them did a good enough job on the OL and it was probably both of their undoings, along with hiring bad head coaches.
Like I said, maybe 3 OK players. You’re scrambling to find anything decent over a 10 year stretch of off-seasons.
Gettleman, for all of his warts, might’ve landed 3 high end starters in 4 years. We’ll see.
None of this is really the point though. My point is “addressing the OL” doesn’t mean dick if the standard for “addressing” is adding a couple draft picks and FAs every year who don’t pan out.
I disagree. Using significant draft picks ( high draft picks 1st and/or 2nd round) and, or significant cap dollars for free agents is addressing the OL regardless how they pan out. However, addressing a position is not something you mark off a list and move on. You address, then evaluate, and address again for the
misses in my opinion.
Again, throwing bodies at the OL shouldn’t qualify as addressing it. Addressing it is turning it from shitty to not shitty.
In 4 years, Gettleman potentially added 3 quality starters — Thomas, Gates (we’ll see on injury), and Lemieux (we’ll see this year). That’s a better result than Reese over a much shorter time period.
How many quality OL did Reese add during his entire tenure? MAYBE 3 ok players?
Not here to defend Reese but:
Beatty was a competent LT
Pugh has ended up a competent starter
Flowers/Hart even got a few contracts
Baas helped them get to the SB
Andrews was a monster if he didn't quit football
i think it's fair to say Gettleman's hit rate was a little higher since Reese had so many outright busts in the draft. You left off Zeitler who was one of Gettleman's best pick ups, but that's a double edged sword bc it was also probably his worst decision last offseason.
bottom line neither of them did a good enough job on the OL and it was probably both of their undoings, along with hiring bad head coaches.
Like I said, maybe 3 OK players. You’re scrambling to find anything decent over a 10 year stretch of off-seasons.
Gettleman, for all of his warts, might’ve landed 3 high end starters in 4 years. We’ll see.
None of this is really the point though. My point is “addressing the OL” doesn’t mean dick if the standard for “addressing” is adding a couple draft picks and FAs every year who don’t pan out.
I disagree. Using significant draft picks ( high draft picks 1st and/or 2nd round) and, or significant cap dollars for free agents is addressing the OL regardless how they pan out. However, addressing a position is not something you mark off a list and move on. You address, then evaluate, and address again for the
misses in my opinion.
Even by your standards Reese and Gettleman failed to address the OL.
I disagree. Using significant draft picks ( high draft picks 1st and/or 2nd round) and, or significant cap dollars for free agents is addressing the OL regardless how they pan out. However, addressing a position is not something you mark off a list and move on. You address, then evaluate, and address again for the
misses in my opinion.
Even by your standards Reese and Gettleman failed to address the OL.
isn't this basically the only rational conclusion? we can mark off where both occasionally put appropriate resources into the OL but at the end of the day neither assembled a good OL. that's the failure.
I disagree. Using significant draft picks ( high draft picks 1st and/or 2nd round) and, or significant cap dollars for free agents is addressing the OL regardless how they pan out. However, addressing a position is not something you mark off a list and move on. You address, then evaluate, and address again for the
misses in my opinion.
Even by your standards Reese and Gettleman failed to address the OL.
isn't this basically the only rational conclusion? we can mark off where both occasionally put appropriate resources into the OL but at the end of the day neither assembled a good OL. that's the failure.
If the rational conclusion is they failed to address the OL then yes, I agree. But for years some posters made the argument that they did address it, but the players didn’t work out. That I don’t agree with. When your OL is consistently one of the worst in the league for 5 years straight, then 10 years, etc you need to do more to address it then a few half assed draft picks and FAs.
Getts could have had the rest of the decade to stabilize the OL
With that said, if the definition of addressing the OL was adding 10 new guys to the group then neither Reese of Gettleman addressed the OL. Lol.
This was a great job. They knew the market. They understood where we stood in the draft. There was a definite plan. They stood by that plan. Now, we just need to hope it yields results. That's what will decide if this was the right approach.
I'm no expert on hog mollies, but there's some serious beef in that line by adding Neal (6-7 and 350lbs), McKethan (6-6.5 and 340), and if they keep Ben Adler for center, he's huge.
Not so fast- I heard that when Schoen moved into Getty's office he found the names of those drafted OLs tacked to the bulletin board.
I don’t feel like the last admin put a whole lot of value in these types of players, they were too comfortable to just say “well we drafted Peart, we’re fine”.
Schoen spent the 2 biggest cap #'s to FAs on OL and 2 of the 4 highest draft picks - plus all the other low cost depth signings. the effort was there in a way we haven't seen before, need to hope the execution was too.
Is it too early to project next year's Cap ?? Estimated Dead money in 2023 ? Room for a Free Agent splurge ??
Is it too early to project next year's Cap ?? Estimated Dead money in 2023 ? Room for a Free Agent splurge ??
going forward the cap is clean. they are top 5 in effective cap space which nets out signing the draft picks.
Jackson, Williams, Golladay will basically be in the same position as Bradberry was this year but schoen will have money to spend whether he wants to keep them or move on (and create more money to spend).
Ernie went cheap for six years, convinced that a good left tackle and four nobodies would be good enough. Even the grizzled vets on the 2000 line were something of a dumpster dive, though it worked pretty well for a year. He finally started investing in 2004 and 2005 (Snee and especially McKenzie). O’Hara, Diehl and Seubert were bargain finds.
Jerry invested heavily, with big contracts for the 2007 Champs, plus subsequent acquisitions via free agency and the draft. Unfortunately for Jerry, nothing he tried ended well.
Is it too early to project next year's Cap ?? Estimated Dead money in 2023 ? Room for a Free Agent splurge ??
Cap situation is very fluid, but we are $50M+ in cap space in 2023, basically the 5th most in the NFL.
Bears are basically 2X more than us. So, if Fields somehow manages to do well this year (and if you think Jones has had bad rosters, look at what Fields is dealing with...) I suspect there will be serious interest to play in Chi-town.
Reese and DG both inherited that mentality from EA without realizing how lucky they got with that 07-10 OL. The moment either of them didn't feel desperation to fix it they neglected it like choosing Marshall over Whitworth in 2017 and dumping Zeitler last year.
I agree with your broader point that Coughlin contributed to the change in philosophy. Ironically, the biggest beneficiary from 2004-2006 was Jim Fassel’s favorite “finesse” player, Tiki Barber.
When was the last time anything like that happened?
Ernie went cheap for six years, convinced that a good left tackle and four nobodies would be good enough. Even the grizzled vets on the 2000 line were something of a dumpster dive, though it worked pretty well for a year. He finally started investing in 2004 and 2005 (Snee and especially McKenzie). O’Hara, Diehl and Seubert were bargain finds.
Jerry invested heavily, with big contracts for the 2007 Champs, plus subsequent acquisitions via free agency and the draft. Unfortunately for Jerry, nothing he tried ended well.
I’m not arguing with you but Diehl was a 5th round pick. The bargain (steal really) was that he could play and played 4 different line positions.
If you can't recognize OL talent, it doesn't matter how many picks you waste on it.
I agree with your broader point that Coughlin contributed to the change in philosophy. Ironically, the biggest beneficiary from 2004-2006 was Jim Fassel’s favorite “finesse” player, Tiki Barber.
yeah im not saying he specifically identified either or even campaigned for them individually, just the overall sea change to prioritize a real power guard with a high pick and paying big $ for a RT.
i think it was 1 of those same offseasons that they also signed Norman Hand, which was another type of player they hadn't had previously.
How does Roy Mbaeteka's contract fit into this whole thing ? If I recall, he signed a 3 year deal, but will probably be on the Practice Squad this year ? Can he be poached off the PS ?
78 A. Thomas
79 K. Cunningham
62 D. Hamilton
Guard
66 S. Lemieux
72 M. Garcia
75 J. Ezeudu
67 J. Rivas
Center
76 J. Feliciano
77 J. Douglas
65 N. Gates
Guard
64 M. Glowinski
68 B. Bredeson
60 M. McKethan
Tackle
70 E. Neal
73 M. Gono
74 M. Peart
61 R. Mbaeteka
17 guys for what I think are probably 9 slots on the 53 (8 on game day) plus 2 on the PS. So 6 of these 17 gonzo. I think Gates and Peart get PUP'd. So that leaves 4 outright cuts IMV.
As a practical matter, nearly all PS players who get roster offers take them. The difference in pay and security is too good to turn down. One rare exception was Josh Rosen, who was obviously a unique case because of his massive guarantees and his personal circumstances.
You're right that Mbaeteka is ticketed for the practice squad. It's no coincidence that his salary guarantee exactly equals 18 weeks of practice squad pay.
With that said, if the definition of addressing the OL was adding 10 new guys to the group then neither Reese of Gettleman addressed the OL. Lol.
This was a great job. They knew the market. They understood where we stood in the draft. There was a definite plan. They stood by that plan. Now, we just need to hope it yields results. That's what will decide if this was the right approach.
What you and others said was idiotic because throwing bodies at the OL isn’t what people mean by addressing it. That’s what both regimes essentially did with low round fliers, projects, and dumpster diving FAs.
Gettleman did a shit job but he was actually worlds better than Reese regarding the OL considering what he added over 4 years and what Reese added over a decade. Reese was criminally terrible.
That said, it’s still TBD with this regime but they should at least be one piece closer with the addition of Neal.
Why was Wirfs 4th OT off the board? Why didn’t he have his ups and downs? Very few players are SURE things, so not understanding the point of this post. Who is claiming Neal is a sure thing?
We try to learn from it and approach a bit differently next time 😊
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Who's the hog molly expert?!
Not so fast- I heard that when Schoen moved into Getty's office he found the names of those drafted OLs tacked to the bulletin board.
It was titled, "What are You Cooking for the Draft This Week?"
With that said, if the definition of addressing the OL was adding 10 new guys to the group then neither Reese of Gettleman addressed the OL. Lol.
This was a great job. They knew the market. They understood where we stood in the draft. There was a definite plan. They stood by that plan. Now, we just need to hope it yields results. That's what will decide if this was the right approach.
Agree Robbie. Finally a FO understanding how dire the situation was with what we were trotting out there on the OL, and trying to actually fix the problem.
With that said, if the definition of addressing the OL was adding 10 new guys to the group then neither Reese of Gettleman addressed the OL. Lol.
This was a great job. They knew the market. They understood where we stood in the draft. There was a definite plan. They stood by that plan. Now, we just need to hope it yields results. That's what will decide if this was the right approach.
Tend to agree with these same sentiments, except will hold off on calling it a great job until we see what it indeed yields as you suggested.
To me Schoen approached this logically and executed accordingly based on the resources he was given. He added some credible, albeit cheaper, veterans to the interior line in free agency; highlighted positional importance in Tackle spot with the #7 overall pick and then rounded out depth/versatility with a few more OL picks on Day 2 and Day 3.
A great job is when we witness some semblence of this OL stabilized, consistently supporting scoring drives and not just falling apart when injuries/dings result in some pivots. That is when we will know Schoen has better evaluation skills and the coaches are handling their development adequately.
Lots of 'experts' had him as #1, and he was #1 on numerous mock drafts. Luckily, not on Carolina's. And the run on the two CBs made him available.
He is the least of my worries.
I like the idea of adding as many as possible and hopefully hitting on a couple but past Front offices have struck out also.
I have faith in this front office until I don't
I think it's misleading to claim that DG did more to address the OL than Reese. I broke Reese's final eight years up into two four-year blocks so that each would be comparable with Gettleman's four-year tenure.
The players added by Reese were, for the most part, poor choices and significantly impacted by injuries. DG has some stinkers in there also:
-------------------------
REESE:
2010-13
DRAFT
Mitch Petrus (2010 - 5)
James Brewer (2011 - 4)
Brandon Mosley (2012 - 4)
Matt McCants (2012 - 6)
Justin Pugh (2013 - 1)
Eric Herman (2013 - 7)
VETERAN FREE AGENTS
Shawn Andrews (2010 - 13 games)
David Baas (2011 - 30 games)
Stacy Andrews (2011 - 9 games)
Sean Locklear (2012 - 12 games)
-------------------------
2014-17
DRAFT
Weston Richburg (2014 - 2)
Ereck Flowers (2015 - 1)
Bobby Hart (2015 - 7)
Adam Bisnowaty (2017 - 7)
VETERAN FREE AGENTS
Geoff Schwartz (2014 - 13 games)
J.D. Walton (2014 - 16 games)
Charles Brown (2014 - 2 games)
Adam Snyder (2014 - 4 games)
Marshall Newhouse (2015 - 24 games)
Brett Jones (2015 - 14 games)
D.J. Fluker (2017 - 9 games)
-------------------------
GETTLEMAN:
2018-2021
DRAFT
Will Hernandez (2018 - 2)
George Asaho-Adjei (2019 - 7)
Andrew Thomas (2020 - 1)
Matt Peart (2020 - 3)
Shane Lemieux (2020 - 5)
VETERAN FREE AGENTS
Nate Solder (2018 - 48 games)
Patrick Omameh (2018 - 7 games)
Mike Remmers (2019 - 14 games)
Cam Fleming (2020 - 16 games)
-------------------------
I couldn't find a reliable listing of UDFA from year to year, so I don't have them listed here - as a result, Gates doesn't appear on this list, but it would be unfair to not credit Gates to DG's ledger (although hitting on a UDFA requires a good deal of luck).
Aside from that, do the lists above really support the notion that DG did all that much more to address the OL than Reese?
the OL from 2007-2010 was the single biggest outlier of the last 30 years of nyg football. a happy accident. neither reese or gettleman truly understood the magnitude of importance.
In 4 years, Gettleman potentially added 3 quality starters — Thomas, Gates (we’ll see on injury), and Lemieux (we’ll see this year). That’s a better result than Reese over a much shorter time period.
How many quality OL did Reese add during his entire tenure? MAYBE 3 ok players?
In 4 years, Gettleman potentially added 3 quality starters — Thomas, Gates (we’ll see on injury), and Lemieux (we’ll see this year). That’s a better result than Reese over a much shorter time period.
How many quality OL did Reese add during his entire tenure? MAYBE 3 ok players?
Not here to defend Reese but:
Beatty was a competent LT
Pugh has ended up a competent starter
Flowers/Hart even got a few contracts
Baas helped them get to the SB
Andrews was a monster if he didn't quit football
i think it's fair to say Gettleman's hit rate was a little higher since Reese had so many outright busts in the draft. You left off Zeitler who was one of Gettleman's best pick ups, but that's a double edged sword bc it was also probably his worst decision last offseason.
bottom line neither of them did a good enough job on the OL and it was probably both of their undoings, along with hiring bad head coaches.
Losing Gates and Lemieux to injury, making the OL worse by trading their best lineman, and having no depth whatsoever isn't a good job.
Lemieux, has talent. Got the starting job in part because there was zero young talent on this roster to push.
Hernandez, washout. Likely a career backup.
Gates, looks like a hit
Zeitler, got him in trade because you were desperate for OL. Traded him away and got worse at OL.
Solder, LOL. Forced to start at RT despite severe decline because...
Matt Peart, a top-100 pick is apparently unplayable even in an emergency.
Your depth guys were borderline players in their 30s who quickly filed for retirement, leaving you with nothing because you never had young players.
You lose two key starters to injury - that happens.
You have nothing to replace them with - that's a bad job
You have to go outside the organization midseason for trades for scraps - laughable.
Losing Gates and Lemieux to injury, making the OL worse by trading their best lineman, and having no depth whatsoever isn't a good job.
We have gone through this numerous times. Gettleman actually allowed a disinvestment in the OL from 2020 to 2021 and many here mentioned that was a risky strategy going into summer camp.
Then they had a few retirements/injuries and panic set in since Judge wound up cutting many of the reserves. And the front office went scrambling for a few extra O-linemen at the last second.
Quite the plan.
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Again, throwing bodies at the OL shouldn’t qualify as addressing it. Addressing it is turning it from shitty to not shitty.
In 4 years, Gettleman potentially added 3 quality starters — Thomas, Gates (we’ll see on injury), and Lemieux (we’ll see this year). That’s a better result than Reese over a much shorter time period.
How many quality OL did Reese add during his entire tenure? MAYBE 3 ok players?
Not here to defend Reese but:
Beatty was a competent LT
Pugh has ended up a competent starter
Flowers/Hart even got a few contracts
Baas helped them get to the SB
Andrews was a monster if he didn't quit football
i think it's fair to say Gettleman's hit rate was a little higher since Reese had so many outright busts in the draft. You left off Zeitler who was one of Gettleman's best pick ups, but that's a double edged sword bc it was also probably his worst decision last offseason.
bottom line neither of them did a good enough job on the OL and it was probably both of their undoings, along with hiring bad head coaches.
Like I said, maybe 3 OK players. You’re scrambling to find anything decent over a 10 year stretch of off-seasons.
Gettleman, for all of his warts, might’ve landed 3 high end starters in 4 years. We’ll see.
None of this is really the point though. My point is “addressing the OL” doesn’t mean dick if the standard for “addressing” is adding a couple draft picks and FAs every year who don’t pan out.
Quote:
In comment 15716662 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Again, throwing bodies at the OL shouldn’t qualify as addressing it. Addressing it is turning it from shitty to not shitty.
In 4 years, Gettleman potentially added 3 quality starters — Thomas, Gates (we’ll see on injury), and Lemieux (we’ll see this year). That’s a better result than Reese over a much shorter time period.
How many quality OL did Reese add during his entire tenure? MAYBE 3 ok players?
Not here to defend Reese but:
Beatty was a competent LT
Pugh has ended up a competent starter
Flowers/Hart even got a few contracts
Baas helped them get to the SB
Andrews was a monster if he didn't quit football
i think it's fair to say Gettleman's hit rate was a little higher since Reese had so many outright busts in the draft. You left off Zeitler who was one of Gettleman's best pick ups, but that's a double edged sword bc it was also probably his worst decision last offseason.
bottom line neither of them did a good enough job on the OL and it was probably both of their undoings, along with hiring bad head coaches.
Like I said, maybe 3 OK players. You’re scrambling to find anything decent over a 10 year stretch of off-seasons.
Gettleman, for all of his warts, might’ve landed 3 high end starters in 4 years. We’ll see.
None of this is really the point though. My point is “addressing the OL” doesn’t mean dick if the standard for “addressing” is adding a couple draft picks and FAs every year who don’t pan out.
I disagree. Using significant draft picks ( high draft picks 1st and/or 2nd round) and, or significant cap dollars for free agents is addressing the OL regardless how they pan out. However, addressing a position is not something you mark off a list and move on. You address, then evaluate, and address again for the
misses in my opinion.
Quote:
In comment 15716671 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15716662 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Again, throwing bodies at the OL shouldn’t qualify as addressing it. Addressing it is turning it from shitty to not shitty.
In 4 years, Gettleman potentially added 3 quality starters — Thomas, Gates (we’ll see on injury), and Lemieux (we’ll see this year). That’s a better result than Reese over a much shorter time period.
How many quality OL did Reese add during his entire tenure? MAYBE 3 ok players?
Not here to defend Reese but:
Beatty was a competent LT
Pugh has ended up a competent starter
Flowers/Hart even got a few contracts
Baas helped them get to the SB
Andrews was a monster if he didn't quit football
i think it's fair to say Gettleman's hit rate was a little higher since Reese had so many outright busts in the draft. You left off Zeitler who was one of Gettleman's best pick ups, but that's a double edged sword bc it was also probably his worst decision last offseason.
bottom line neither of them did a good enough job on the OL and it was probably both of their undoings, along with hiring bad head coaches.
Like I said, maybe 3 OK players. You’re scrambling to find anything decent over a 10 year stretch of off-seasons.
Gettleman, for all of his warts, might’ve landed 3 high end starters in 4 years. We’ll see.
None of this is really the point though. My point is “addressing the OL” doesn’t mean dick if the standard for “addressing” is adding a couple draft picks and FAs every year who don’t pan out.
I disagree. Using significant draft picks ( high draft picks 1st and/or 2nd round) and, or significant cap dollars for free agents is addressing the OL regardless how they pan out. However, addressing a position is not something you mark off a list and move on. You address, then evaluate, and address again for the
misses in my opinion.
Even by your standards Reese and Gettleman failed to address the OL.
I disagree. Using significant draft picks ( high draft picks 1st and/or 2nd round) and, or significant cap dollars for free agents is addressing the OL regardless how they pan out. However, addressing a position is not something you mark off a list and move on. You address, then evaluate, and address again for the
misses in my opinion.
Even by your standards Reese and Gettleman failed to address the OL.
isn't this basically the only rational conclusion? we can mark off where both occasionally put appropriate resources into the OL but at the end of the day neither assembled a good OL. that's the failure.
Quote:
I disagree. Using significant draft picks ( high draft picks 1st and/or 2nd round) and, or significant cap dollars for free agents is addressing the OL regardless how they pan out. However, addressing a position is not something you mark off a list and move on. You address, then evaluate, and address again for the
misses in my opinion.
Even by your standards Reese and Gettleman failed to address the OL.
isn't this basically the only rational conclusion? we can mark off where both occasionally put appropriate resources into the OL but at the end of the day neither assembled a good OL. that's the failure.
If the rational conclusion is they failed to address the OL then yes, I agree. But for years some posters made the argument that they did address it, but the players didn’t work out. That I don’t agree with. When your OL is consistently one of the worst in the league for 5 years straight, then 10 years, etc you need to do more to address it then a few half assed draft picks and FAs.
And for those that really get chafed by seeing opinions stated as fact, this is both...