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Our Cash Spending vs Cap Space Total Mismanagement

Essex : 5/23/2022 8:39 am
I am far from a cap expert but our cash spending this year is basically the fourth least in the league, but our cap is near the highest. The amount of mismanagement that went on during the Gettleman years is beyond crazy. That Abrams still has a job is just offensive to me.

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RE: …  
Semipro Lineman : 5/23/2022 10:00 am : link
In comment 15716159 christian said:
Quote:
First, I bet if you look at cash output for 2021 the Giants are very high on that list, having paid Williams, Golladay, and Jackson their bonuses.

Second, I think many of you are confusing cap management with resource allocation.

There’s a great video from last year where Abrams describes his role and how he was the architect in many ways of the multi year financial plan.


I wish I had seen this before I posted. Well said...
Shit players  
giantBCP : 5/23/2022 10:01 am : link
but I wouldn't say that the cap was mismanaged, when taking into account our available cap in 2023 and 2024. To look at only this years salary cap and not the cap over a multi-year period is juvenile. Void years and contract restructures are a major part of working with the salary cap, because if you have too much cap space and are forced to spend (with the salary floor), you're going to get boned in free agency.
RE: Long story short  
Eric on Li : 5/23/2022 10:05 am : link
In comment 15716166 Semipro Lineman said:
Quote:
You were here along with the rest of us when the Giants spent a bunch of money on Free Agents in 2021 and pushed the cap hit of those new contracts to 2022.

But Hey, lets pretend to be shocked and dismay by the fact that the 2022 cap space is limited over and fucking over again like a fucking goldfish with a two minute attention span.


I think it is more than fair to question  
NoGainDayne : 5/23/2022 10:09 am : link
given the horrible nature of our financial situation why more people weren't let go from that area of the business. It was primarily football people that were let go but you could argue that the resource allocation portion of the business was run just as poorly. Anyone that doesn't accept DG and Mara leaned on people that are very much still in the building on those issues is being willfully ignorant.

People are often so obsessed with wanting to wave the mission accomplished banner around here they ignore fairly obvious remaining problems.
And just two years ago the Giants were one of the best teams  
robbieballs2003 : 5/23/2022 10:25 am : link
at handling the cap. They were in great position and were fiscally responsible. What some don't seem to understand is there are systems. People like to focus on one thing or one person. The reason we are where we are has nothing to do with those handling the contracts. It had to do with poor talent evaluation, poor development of players, poor coaching, poor management, and when you basically have people put in a do or die situation then you get careless spending. Those doing the cap did not just forget how to do their job.
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RE: I think it is more than fair to question  
Semipro Lineman : 5/23/2022 10:31 am : link
In comment 15716172 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:

People are often so obsessed with wanting to wave the mission accomplished banner around here they ignore fairly obvious remaining problems.



The "HEADS MUSH ROLLS!1!1!1 crew calling others obsessed is hilarious.


Regardless of who is to blame and what is the chain of command,  
Ivan15 : 5/23/2022 10:41 am : link
Personnel changes aren’t and shouldn’t be made overnight. Except for the people who obviously needed to go, decisions on everyone else should be based on performance. We saw that Schoen waited until after the draft to make decisions on the scouting department and those may still be ongoing. He is likely to be doing the same with the management team but it will take a while. There also is the concept of institutional memory which probably comes into play in this situation. Schoen needs to learn and understand why certain personnel decisions were made. Probably only two sources of that information - John Mara and Kevin Abrams. It may take input from both of them and maybe others (Chris Mara and Tim McDonald, for example) in order to figure out what really happened and how to avoid mistakes in the future. When stepping into a new position, institutional memory has some real value, especially dealing with people who are trying to protect their jobs.
Wanting people fired for doing their jobs poorly  
NoGainDayne : 5/23/2022 10:47 am : link
is not an obsession, it's pretty logical actually

If you can't see how every year there are similar "this is the year we turn it around we fixed x,y,z" as a pattern that maybe some want to be aware of and point out I don't know what else to tell you.

I don't think there are any "heads must roll" "people" as you express. The second these people start doing their jobs well I will cease to have an opinion on their employment status. But it is certainly hard to argue whoever has been near the cap or resource allocation analysis has done their job well at all.

So yeah, the "we don't know if they were the ones responsible" and "this is the year they are going to perform well" attitudes are the obsessions and a refusal to be grounded in fairly simple logic.

You are the one choosing to ignore the data. 10 years of it. If I even get 2 years of good data you won't hear me talking about people doing their jobs poorly anymore. Or saying "hey you know what, maybe these people who I'm just randomly choosing to like aren't part of the success, hell, I hear they are involved in other things, not what's making this team good"

Because THAT would be stupid.
We could be the Saints  
Chip : 5/23/2022 11:11 am : link
They backload everything and keep doing it every year. They are now 58 million over next years cap like they were this year.
The Giants could extend Williams and save a ton of cap space but if the team is unwilling to do that and also only do 3 year contracts the upfront bonus money is spread out over a shorter period of time even using the 4th year as a bonus year on the bonus even though the player is not signed to play. A lot of teams are using this as a way to save cap space like Dallas who has longer term contracts. Longer term contracts are risky if the player does not work out.

The smartest thing to do next season 2023 is to stay out of the first wave of free agency. See Green Bay and the Colts.
RE: Long story short  
Alan W : 5/23/2022 11:28 am : link
In comment 15716166 Semipro Lineman said:
Quote:
You were here along with the rest of us when the Giants spent a bunch of money on Free Agents in 2021 and pushed the cap hit of those new contracts to 2022.

But Hey, lets pretend to be shocked and dismay by the fact that the 2022 cap space is limited over and fucking over again like a fucking goldfish with a two minute attention span.


Isn't it a 10 or 15 second span?
You're right  
Semipro Lineman : 5/23/2022 11:44 am : link
A goldfish attention span is reportedly 10 to 15 seconds. Which is obviously longer than many in this group who keep repeating the fact that the Giants haven't made good player personnel decisions as proof that the Giants aren't managing the cap well despite the fact that they usually had the cap space to make the bad personnel decision with one or two exceptions in the last ten years.
OMG, The Giants don't have CAP space in 2022?  
ZogZerg : 5/23/2022 11:48 am : link
.
RE: I think it is more than fair to question  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/23/2022 11:49 am : link
In comment 15716172 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:

People are often so obsessed with wanting to wave the mission accomplished banner around here they ignore fairly obvious remaining problems.


Few truer statements about BBI have ever been made.
Current cash is the money you spend in a season  
Rudy5757 : 5/23/2022 11:57 am : link
including bonus money. You had no space to sign high $$ long term contracts so our Cash Spending is low. How hard is that to understand?

Our current regime wanted to set this team up for the future by eliminating all of the contract they could on players that are not going to be here long term. So instead of adding void years to contracts like the one that Bradberry signed with the Eagles, we cut Bradberry.

DG is the guy that made the final call. He was the boss, no one knows how these deals went down or if Abrams or anyone else said we cant afford it. Its done. Its been beaten to death. the cap situation next year looks good but the roster is going to need more players just to get to 53. So will Schoen shop in the bargain bin, middle of the road or go for the high priced star? If DJ has a great year that will be $30-$45 Million to sign him. Will Mara tell Schoen to sign Saquon if he has a great year? Will Golladay and/or Williams be on the team next year?

The big cap space will go quick, we need a QB. We need a #1 WR. Those are expensive positions. How will Schoen handle that? If DGs big signings had worked out no one would care how much they got. Its not how much you pay or overpay, its production and wins and losses. If Solder was a stud it would have been a good signing at that price, if Golladay lit it up no one would care about the contract.

Just move forward, this is our team aside from some low end signings or vet low end 1 year deals. Root for some diamonds in the rough to help get this team back in contention.
It is quite amazing the patience & understanding shown by so many  
Jimmy Googs : 5/23/2022 12:01 pm : link
NY Giant fans that can continue to discuss the team here in 2022 knowing that people like Kevin Abrams and Chris Mara still exist in the building in whatever capacity even though you despise them so. Well done...




RE: Current cash is the money you spend in a season  
Essex : 5/23/2022 12:31 pm : link
In comment 15716265 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
including bonus money. You had no space to sign high $$ long term contracts so our Cash Spending is low. How hard is that to understand?

It’s not hard to understand—it’s hard to fathom that we could be so mismanaged and some of the culprits are still around.
We know it's bad  
Kanavis : 5/23/2022 12:56 pm : link
And that DG was not a good GM. But some of this is hindsight. Many here, including me thought they could challenge for the division title as silly as it seems now. They ended the previous year really well and we all thought JJ was the long term answer. In that context adding some players didn't seem outrageous. They did it poorly and neglected the line for some reason. But the idea behind wasn't as bad as we are now making it out to be.

With the gift of hindsight...we were much worse...and the moves look terrible. JJ turned out to be a poor choice. But I think many of us are forgetting last year's preseason optimism.
While you're at it  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 5/23/2022 1:33 pm : link
maybe start another thread about Nate Solder's contract?
RE: We know it's bad  
Ivan15 : 5/23/2022 1:47 pm : link
In comment 15716329 Kanavis said:
Quote:
And that DG was not a good GM. But some of this is hindsight. Many here, including me thought they could challenge for the division title as silly as it seems now. They ended the previous year really well and we all thought JJ was the long term answer. In that context adding some players didn't seem outrageous. They did it poorly and neglected the line for some reason. But the idea behind wasn't as bad as we are now making it out to be.

With the gift of hindsight...we were much worse...and the moves look terrible. JJ turned out to be a poor choice. But I think many of us are forgetting last year's preseason optimism.

The players who made us optimistic last year are still with us. Only this year, we aren’t optimistic about them - just hopeful. Barkley, Jones, Jackson, Golladay, Toney, Ojalari. Except for Ojalari and maybe Jackson, the others let us down. This year what we are hoping is that they can’t be as bad as they showed in 2021. Our optimism has shifted to Thibs, Neal, Robinson, and that our GM and HC are better than the last ones.
What is absolutely mind-boggling to me....  
Vin_Cuccs : 5/23/2022 2:02 pm : link
....is the fact that the salary cap was mismanaged so incredibly poorly that they could not even field a full team for the final game of the season last year because they could not afford to pay the players.

I think this gets forgotten, but this is an embarrassment of epic proportions. How in the world can a front office/general manager allow that to happen???
One serious issue  
TommyWiseau : 5/23/2022 2:05 pm : link
That has been plaguing this team for many years was the inability to find quality depth and the rare starter in rounds 3-7 forcing us to overpay in FA for depth, rotational players and marginal starters. Hopefully with Schoen and Co, that fortune can and will change.
...  
christian : 5/23/2022 2:29 pm : link
Just focusing on cash spend -- Schoen could have spent more cash if that was the strategy.

But that cash has to be accounted for on the current year's balance sheet (very little room) or a future year's -- which he was reluctant to do.

I like the approach of taking a year and assessing the current state of the roster before making big commitments.

This is the polar opposite of what Rabbit Foot Dave did in year one.
RE: We know it's bad  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/23/2022 3:24 pm : link
In comment 15716329 Kanavis said:
Quote:
And that DG was not a good GM. But some of this is hindsight. Many here, including me thought they could challenge for the division title as silly as it seems now. They ended the previous year really well


They didn't though. They lost every game they needed to win. They were 1-3 in the final 4 games, and that final game they were already out of and beat a Dallas team missing their starting QB.
I'm confused  
USAF NYG Fan : 5/23/2022 5:29 pm : link
1. I thought it was common knowledge that Abrams hasn't been handling the cap for years.

2. When he was handling the cap he was lauded as doing a very good job at it on this very board.

3. Regardless, whoever handles the cap has to do what he's told. I don't even blame whoever the hell was handling the cap during the DG era. Cap guy, "Mr Gettleman. Sir I don't think that deal is a good idea. I think ....." Gettleman, "I don't care, just make it work". Alternatively, Cap guy, "We should pick up player X and Y this year. I can make it work". Gettleman, "Duh, ok, I'm too stupid to know any better even though I was hired to know better but I have to authorize it so go ahead. I will blindly trust your decision here".

The GM makes those decisions.

4. It seems very clear that Schoen is calling the shots. Do we think he's involved in the cap strategy? I think it's very clear that he's very involved. Do you think he would let the cap guy do the same thing that DG did? Abrams (presumably) did?

5. WTF cares about Abrams right now. Seriously? Abrams? Why stop there? I hear the janitor is terrible at his job. Why is he still there?
RE: What is absolutely mind-boggling to me....  
BillT : 5/23/2022 6:11 pm : link
In comment 15716423 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
....is the fact that the salary cap was mismanaged so incredibly poorly that they could not even field a full team for the final game of the season last year because they could not afford to pay the players.

I think this gets forgotten, but this is an embarrassment of epic proportions. How in the world can a front office/general manager allow that to happen???

Vin, to be fair the team had the worst injury situation in the league since 2009. They had to replace an inordinate number of players. It was really almost beyond comprehension. DG was a bad GM but that isn’t the reason.
RE: RE: What is absolutely mind-boggling to me....  
Vin_Cuccs : 5/24/2022 7:00 am : link
In comment 15716641 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 15716423 Vin_Cuccs said:


Quote:


....is the fact that the salary cap was mismanaged so incredibly poorly that they could not even field a full team for the final game of the season last year because they could not afford to pay the players.

I think this gets forgotten, but this is an embarrassment of epic proportions. How in the world can a front office/general manager allow that to happen???


Vin, to be fair the team had the worst injury situation in the league since 2009. They had to replace an inordinate number of players. It was really almost beyond comprehension. DG was a bad GM but that isn’t the reason.


I understand. Injuries are unfortunate. But injuries happen to every single team. The front office has to be prepared for this. They have to have some money to operate during the season.

Honest question...can you (or anyone) recall another team that could not afford to pay players?

I do not remember this ever happening to any other team.
People are now angry that DG  
section125 : 5/24/2022 7:04 am : link
signed LW, Golladay and Jackson to big contracts last season, but they were also some of the same people who were clamoring to sign them. It was clear that these signings would be bad for the future CAP.

Some people were upset that Schoen decided to let Bradberry go rather than extending his contract, which would have cut into the CAP next season. (It is clear that a few teams tried to trade for Bradberry but he would not agree to proffered extensions.) Schoen correctly determined that Bradberry did not have a future with the Giants and could not be afforded - the antithesis of DG's regime. The can was not kicked down the road.

Next year it is likely a few more contracts will be eaten in similar fashion.

So we are damned if we do and damned if we don't according to BBI.

As far as Abrams - I don't know what he actually does, but if he was not the CAP guy, why is he being blamed for it? If Schoen wanted him gone, he would have been gone. KA must do something that Schoen likes or he would not be with the Giants.

As far as Chris Mara - how do you fire an owner? Remember he owns as large a share as John. Unless the other owners of the Mara family want him removed, he is there as long as he wants - Just like John.
Fair to ask what kind of future KA has with the Giants?  
trueblueinpw : 5/24/2022 10:05 am : link
I guess some folks are suggesting KA is just some kind of front office technocrat? He just takes orders and he is the keeper of record for institutional knowledge? Okay, keep him around this year for transition. But, if it were my business I wouldn’t want such a person around any longer than necessary. No one is irreplaceable and it’s good to have some turn over on senior staff, even when successful which the Giants haven’t been in a decade.

I’m not sure what kind of future KA has with the Giants but if the only reason to keep him is that he was just taking orders, well, that’s not a compelling argument for such a prominent position.

Also, KA wanted and was for years reportedly being groomed for the GM job. I have no idea why he would want to stick around having missed the opportunity to ascend (two or three times now). More important, why would Schoen want someone like that around his team? Doesn’t make any sense to me.

If KA is still with the Giants in a year that could be some cause for legitimate Maranoia.

Abrams will always have a job with the Giants (or the league office)  
Jerry in_DC : 5/24/2022 12:32 pm : link
Think about it. Mara likes Abrams. He wants to take care of him.

Abrams is basically unemployable. He is a salary cap expert. There are 32 organizations in the world who need those skills. Abrams comes from among the worst, most dysfunctional organizations. He is not getting hired by another team.

If he gets fired, where does he go? He probably has a comfortable executive lifestyle now. He's not getting that anywhere else. Seriously, what kind of job is he getting? Data entry? Some kind of low level Excel jockey?

Mara will take care of him forever. I don't know what that means for his actual role, but expect him to be here for a long time.
The Giants can purge a lot next year if they must  
SGMen : 5/25/2022 7:05 am : link
My hope is our top guys play well cause well... I'm a FAN.

But using UFA to build the team is never a good idea. You sign UFA's that fit your time at reasonable prices to replace guys who left or positions which are depleted. You sign big money guys ONLY if they are a missing piece to a big playoff run or SB.

I see why DG did what he did but he misfired. The big money signings didn't really work out overall as Bradberry had one great year along with Martinez and Galloday sucked. The list goes on and on but we never fixed the OL. Perhaps this new regime has done just that?
RE: People are now angry that DG  
Eric on Li : 5/25/2022 9:52 am : link
In comment 15716986 section125 said:
Quote:
signed LW, Golladay and Jackson to big contracts last season, but they were also some of the same people who were clamoring to sign them. It was clear that these signings would be bad for the future CAP.


the above is true and what's most ironic is that generally speaking big signings = bigger cash spending. so criticisms of the team not spending more cash in the last several years are basically criticisms that they have been too fiscally prudent.

the only way to have more cash spending would have been to give out more upfront money to big free agents in previous years, and this year to have kept logan ryan and restructured bradberry (as you pointed out). Schoen could have spent a lot more cash if he restructured 10-20m more from KG/LW and then used that room to sign a bunch of other free agents on deflated cap #'s like the Eagles/Saints did.

spending cash above the cap isn't a sign of cap health it's the literal act of "kicking the can".
Targeting higher talented players like LW, Golladay and Jackson  
Jimmy Googs : 5/25/2022 11:14 am : link
to improve the roster is one thing.

Overvaluing their play/impact and signing them to deals that make little sense is irresponsible. Particularly since the Giants were bargaining against themselves with some of these guys as well.

GM of the Year, four straight years before retiring...
RE: Targeting higher talented players like LW, Golladay and Jackson  
Eric on Li : 5/25/2022 11:22 am : link
In comment 15717989 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
to improve the roster is one thing.

Overvaluing their play/impact and signing them to deals that make little sense is irresponsible. Particularly since the Giants were bargaining against themselves with some of these guys as well.

GM of the Year, four straight years before retiring...


backwards as usual. all 3 got contracts right in line with what was projected ahead of time, maybe even a little lower.

the issue was the choices of Golladay and Jackson since they both had histories of being unreliable, which was exactly how things played out. not to mention the opportunity cost of having chosen to pay those guys instead of retaining more reliable players like Zeitler or Tomlinson or upgrading on the edges.
Projecting & Predicting the Top NFL Free Agents (2021) - ( New Window )
Haha, you may want to think again...  
Jimmy Googs : 5/25/2022 11:28 am : link
this time remove yourself from your cheerleading posts that everybody on the NYG roster is at fair market value for their level of play.

I know, I know...if we only had more franchise tags to divvy up.
RE: Haha, you may want to think again...  
Eric on Li : 5/25/2022 11:40 am : link
In comment 15718008 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
this time remove yourself from your cheerleading posts that everybody on the NYG roster is at fair market value for their level of play.

I know, I know...if we only had more franchise tags to divvy up.


not what i said at all. golladay and jackson are both very under water - which is why i said the exact opposite that they were bad signings. you were the one who seemed to imply they weren't the wrong players to go after wrapped in your favorite fairy tale of magical thinking that somehow there's a way to make other people agree to take less money.
RE: RE: Haha, you may want to think again...  
Jimmy Googs : 5/25/2022 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15718021 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15718008 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


this time remove yourself from your cheerleading posts that everybody on the NYG roster is at fair market value for their level of play.

I know, I know...if we only had more franchise tags to divvy up.



not what i said at all. golladay and jackson are both very under water - which is why i said the exact opposite that they were bad signings. you were the one who seemed to imply they weren't the wrong players to go after wrapped in your favorite fairy tale of magical thinking that somehow there's a way to make other people agree to take less money.


Actually no. I said there was nothing wrong with targeting better players for the roster. But overevaluating their play/impact leading to material overpays and bad contracts is irresponsible.

The magical way credible GMs deal with this phenomenon is to walk away from the bargaining table sometimes.

The fairy tale is thinking these were reasonable signings while we wind up with a 4-win team every year that has no trouble spending all of our cap money...
RE: Targeting higher talented players like LW, Golladay and Jackson  
bw in dc : 5/25/2022 12:16 pm : link
In comment 15717989 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
to improve the roster is one thing.

Overvaluing their play/impact and signing them to deals that make little sense is irresponsible. Particularly since the Giants were bargaining against themselves with some of these guys as well.

GM of the Year, four straight years before retiring...


I would have gone a different route in FA to solve the issue at WR, but I understood the theory behind buying KG.

The LW trade and signing were both daft moves. I still can't get over that one. The money spent on LW could have been used for much bigger needs. It was a classic "save face" signing by DG because he needed to justify the trade.

Signing AJax at the time was overkill due to the amount of resources DG invested in the corner position. I would have been supportive of rolling with JB on one side and the young, unproven pups on the other side going into 2021. Now, we may get lucky here because AJax gives Martindale a vet to work with, so one side should be okay. But I would have been fine this rolling with unproven corners and letting Martindale do the other aspect of his job - development.



should say overvaluing  
Jimmy Googs : 5/25/2022 12:17 pm : link
not overevaluating.

But maybe both fit...

:-)
RE: RE: Targeting higher talented players like LW, Golladay and Jackson  
Jimmy Googs : 5/25/2022 12:23 pm : link
In comment 15718068 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15717989 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


to improve the roster is one thing.

Overvaluing their play/impact and signing them to deals that make little sense is irresponsible. Particularly since the Giants were bargaining against themselves with some of these guys as well.

GM of the Year, four straight years before retiring...



I would have gone a different route in FA to solve the issue at WR, but I understood the theory behind buying KG.

The LW trade and signing were both daft moves. I still can't get over that one. The money spent on LW could have been used for much bigger needs. It was a classic "save face" signing by DG because he needed to justify the trade.

Signing AJax at the time was overkill due to the amount of resources DG invested in the corner position. I would have been supportive of rolling with JB on one side and the young, unproven pups on the other side going into 2021. Now, we may get lucky here because AJax gives Martindale a vet to work with, so one side should be okay. But I would have been fine this rolling with unproven corners and letting Martindale do the other aspect of his job - development.




Getts was outnegotiated in each of these instances. As you said he was behind the 8-ball clearly with LW and taken to cleaners. Golladay and Jackson were desperation signings because his prior signings/draft picks at these positions were collosal failures...and ones where not sure anybody else was bidding, at least not at these levels.

A few things puzzle me about these conversations sometimes  
NoGainDayne : 5/25/2022 12:46 pm : link
understanding the inevitability of Chris Mara and Tim Mcdonnell doesn't mean there is no value in talking about it. If anything we need to make sure it stays in the narrative as much as possible. If we continue to struggle the spotlight needs to get brighter and brighter on them.

Along these line I never understand the justification of "hey Kevin Abrams isn't doing anything anymore, you should be happy" or Chris Mara is "just a title."

First of all no, they are voices in the room of the senior decision makers and they aren't sitting in the corner with dunce caps on. It's a joke of a position to assume anyone with a title of SVP or co-owner doesn't have an impact.

Furthermore, the Giants aren't some team that spends unlimited funds. If these were positions that were just title that we were paying for, carrying that dead weight isn't helping us become a better organization. That money that is going to them could be going to other people that get the job purely based on merit, proven success and aptitude.

Maybe the team can win with the folks they have there now. But it doesn't change the fact that there is no evidence these people are good at their jobs. Isn't that what we should want at fans? To be able to point to things and say hey look at this move, here is an example of them being good at their jobs! Instead some would prefer to dance around and talk about lack of complete and total proof they are bad. Why do that?

All of this Kevin Abrams only did the negotiating stuff is just a stupid distinction, he worked with the cap in the past. Shouldn't the person doing the negotiating have an intimate knowledge of the cap situation and the cap affect?

It's like man, I'm only guessing here Kenny but sure we can pay you that. I haven't really looked at the books or anything but you know I like the cut of your jib and we are DESPERATE for a WR. You aren't making Kevin Abrams look any better at his job by making this distinction.

RE: A few things puzzle me about these conversations sometimes  
Eric on Li : 5/25/2022 12:58 pm : link
In comment 15718098 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:


Along these line I never understand the justification of "hey Kevin Abrams isn't doing anything anymore, you should be happy" or Chris Mara is "just a title."

First of all no, they are voices in the room of the senior decision makers and they aren't sitting in the corner with dunce caps on. It's a joke of a position to assume anyone with a title of SVP or co-owner doesn't have an impact.


since they still have voices in the room, did they get better at cap management this year?

or is it more likely the direction of the team is most influenced by whoever the GM/HC is?
It doesn't matter  
NoGainDayne : 5/25/2022 1:03 pm : link
these people are AT BEST useless. At worst actually bad input. It doesn't matter who ultimately makes the decision, you don't want people in the room who are at best useless especially if they are making a good salary that could go to a pontentially useful person
RE: A few things puzzle me about these conversations sometimes  
Jimmy Googs : 5/25/2022 1:10 pm : link
In comment 15718098 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
understanding the inevitability of Chris Mara and Tim Mcdonnell doesn't mean there is no value in talking about it. If anything we need to make sure it stays in the narrative as much as possible. If we continue to struggle the spotlight needs to get brighter and brighter on them.

Along these line I never understand the justification of "hey Kevin Abrams isn't doing anything anymore, you should be happy" or Chris Mara is "just a title."

First of all no, they are voices in the room of the senior decision makers and they aren't sitting in the corner with dunce caps on. It's a joke of a position to assume anyone with a title of SVP or co-owner doesn't have an impact.

Furthermore, the Giants aren't some team that spends unlimited funds. If these were positions that were just title that we were paying for, carrying that dead weight isn't helping us become a better organization. That money that is going to them could be going to other people that get the job purely based on merit, proven success and aptitude.

Maybe the team can win with the folks they have there now. But it doesn't change the fact that there is no evidence these people are good at their jobs. Isn't that what we should want at fans? To be able to point to things and say hey look at this move, here is an example of them being good at their jobs! Instead some would prefer to dance around and talk about lack of complete and total proof they are bad. Why do that?

All of this Kevin Abrams only did the negotiating stuff is just a stupid distinction, he worked with the cap in the past. Shouldn't the person doing the negotiating have an intimate knowledge of the cap situation and the cap affect?

It's like man, I'm only guessing here Kenny but sure we can pay you that. I haven't really looked at the books or anything but you know I like the cut of your jib and we are DESPERATE for a WR. You aren't making Kevin Abrams look any better at his job by making this distinction.


Get a competent GM that is a better evaluator of players and the family stuff will fall in line and/or become irrelevent.

Or you can keep guessing, like above, that these guys specifically are negative contributors...
You are looking at it on a binary scale  
NoGainDayne : 5/25/2022 1:31 pm : link
and it isn't a binary thing.

More people with good and valuable opinions maximizes your chances of winning it's as simple as that.

Also that statement completely disregards the fact that you could have a highly competent GM completely undermined by Mara
RE: You are looking at it on a binary scale  
Jimmy Googs : 5/25/2022 1:42 pm : link
In comment 15718137 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
and it isn't a binary thing.

More people with good and valuable opinions maximizes your chances of winning it's as simple as that.

Also that statement completely disregards the fact that you could have a highly competent GM completely undermined by Mara


And you're disregarding that maybe those guys actually provide valuable opinions at times, or that Schoen is incapable of filtering good from bad.

And if Mara was undermining Gettleman's high competency levels, then what would be the point in replacing him? Why would a young, up-and-coming professional like Schoen even stick around if that undermining was already occurring?

You're like one step away from the c-word...
Why would we do a silly thing and assume  
NoGainDayne : 5/25/2022 2:13 pm : link
that a team that has been one of the very worst teams over the last 10 years had a lot of valuable opinions flying around that building?

It's actually fairly contradictory logic.

And if the argument is that say Abrams did have valuable opinions and he was overruled often those problems could very well still exist.
RE: Why would we do a silly thing and assume  
Jimmy Googs : 5/25/2022 3:02 pm : link
In comment 15718154 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
that a team that has been one of the very worst teams over the last 10 years had a lot of valuable opinions flying around that building?

It's actually fairly contradictory logic.

And if the argument is that say Abrams did have valuable opinions and he was overruled often those problems could very well still exist.


I didn't suggest that there are only valuable opinions being spouted off. If you want to proceed down this path and only bring up extremes to force your point then we aren't getting anywhere in this debate.

The team has sucked for a decade but it's the GM that drives the bus here in NY. And when things go awry and even spiral then my view is the family gets more involved (or more worried) because they have been sold a "bill of goods" by that GM. Mara is ultimately the one to face the music because its his hires but a better GM, running better processes, putting a better coach in place and hiring his own better team members will right the ship. And then the family moves into watch & enjoy mode versus you worrying about why they have those titles and are they possibly overruling everything...
I wasn't suggesting there were never any good opinons  
NoGainDayne : 5/25/2022 3:22 pm : link
I was suggesting that the bad opinions far outweighed the good ones to create that situation. Paying people a high salary to stay around to toss out the occasional non-bad opinion is just bad business but the Giants don't seem to care about that and that is why it may be a long hard road back to contention
RE: All is not sunshine and rainbows  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/25/2022 3:26 pm : link
In comment 15716153 Saos1n said:
Quote:
However, Abrams was once considered a cap genius. When better, overall, decisions were being made. To our knowledge, KA didn’t have a hand in personnel decisions. If Schoen sees some value in keeping him around, and apparently he does, we’ve got to see how it all shakes out. Continuing to bitch about the same topics will just drive us mad. New regime, new expectations, but with that comes patience as the plan unfolds

Abrams was a cap genius in the same way that Marc Ross had day 1-2 grades on every single draft pick. It was a talking point for public consumption. Abrams wasn't generally a liability in cap management, but he also wasn't doing anything extraordinary to provide any sort of advantage.

You do bring up a good point, however - the cap is always going to look worse when the players are bad. The value of the contracts is not there; players are more likely to get cut/replaced, which has a very obvious effect on dead money; outside free agents are more likely to be signed instead of a viable talent pipeline through the draft (and/or re-signing players already on the roster at a time when it can be cap-favorable, such as an extension after y3 of a rookie contract); and the imbalance in free agency (signing more players from other teams than are signed from your own team) precludes many comp pick opportunities, which further limits the access to cheap talent with which to build a roster pipeline.

Good teams enjoy the opposite of most, if not all, of the effects listed above. And that provides much more cap flexibility as a result. But good teams can have cap inefficiencies that they can survive; bad teams can have savvy cap management that goes ignored. Generally, those are uncommon except at the beginning and end of a competitive window.

As it relates to Abrams, he was never as good at cap management as many here (and throughout the Giants fan community at large) held him out to be, and he's not singularly responsible for the current cap mess (the blame there should point squarely at DG for yet another misread of his roster, which led to an ill-timed and way-too-aggressive spending spree). He's the front office executive version of a JAG.
RE: I wasn't suggesting there were never any good opinons  
Jimmy Googs : 5/25/2022 3:43 pm : link
In comment 15718216 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
I was suggesting that the bad opinions far outweighed the good ones to create that situation. Paying people a high salary to stay around to toss out the occasional non-bad opinion is just bad business but the Giants don't seem to care about that and that is why it may be a long hard road back to contention


Okay with general sentiment. But would suggest the better comment is the bad decisions made far outweighed the good ones to create the situation.

Who had the highest volume of good or bad opinions is far less relevant than the decision-making process the GM took and relied upon in executing his own player choices and related contracts. As far you know Gettleman executed his strategies based on his own bad opinions and additionally filtered out some of the good ones he received from others in the building.
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