Our Cash Spending vs Cap Space Total Mismanagement

how many times are we going to say the same damn thing. We know under DG this was a rudderless ship or event better was just a completely mismanaged and run ship.

Forget the past. Schoen has made tough decisions so far to correct those mistakes or at least get those mistakes to be complete faster.

I care more about the fixing now than the mistakes that led to this. We got rid of a bunch of decision makers and then rid of the mistakes made by them.

LFG 2022 with Schoen and Daboll.

Is still here! How is that possible and I don’t think his role with respect to the. p has changed has it?

And no offense taken. This is a message board if you disagree have at me

Abrams himself said he hasn't really done the cap in a couple of years but okay. Looking at the cap in a vacuum is ridiculous.

And the guy who was, Ed Triggs, did what DG told him to do. DG and Judge with the approval of Mara decided to go on a spending spree. That’s on them not the cap manager.

In comment 15716112 robbieballs2003 said:

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Abrams himself said he hasn't really done the cap in a couple of years but okay. Looking at the cap in a vacuum is ridiculous.

Wait, so you think looking at our cap space vs cash outlays are ridiculous? Man, I am not here to fight but that, quite possibly, might be the dumbest thing I have ever run. That is not a vacuum that is an indictment of our management

to raise: Why is Kevin Abrams still with the organization as senior vice president of football operations & strategy?

Maybe he has been fired but if so, I haven’t heard that news

In comment 15716115 ep in md said:

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to raise: Why is Kevin Abrams still with the organization as senior vice president of football operations & strategy?

The plainiest answer is: because they like him. He offered to tender his resignation and they declined. You probably won't find a different answer other than that. Ownership wants it, so it is this way.

In comment 15716121 Essex said:

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Maybe he has been fired but if so, I haven’t heard that news

He is still Director of Football Operations and he is likely still in charge of managing the cap and he is still not responsible for the DG, Judge and Mara FA spending spree.

In comment 15716115 ep in md said:

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to raise: Why is Kevin Abrams still with the organization as senior vice president of football operations & strategy?

It never ceases to amaze me how little many fans understand about corporate titles and positions. Do you REALLY think Abrams is in a meaningful position? This is just a title. Schoen and his new hires (like Brown) run this show.

In comment 15716114 Essex said:

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In comment 15716112 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: Abrams himself said he hasn't really done the cap in a couple of years but okay. Looking at the cap in a vacuum is ridiculous. Wait, so you think looking at our cap space vs cash outlays are ridiculous? Man, I am not here to fight but that, quite possibly, might be the dumbest thing I have ever run. That is not a vacuum that is an indictment of our management

The salary cap gets manipulated. The Giants felt pressure to win last year. They had a very healthy cap situation if you don't isloate your view to one year. The year we brought in Martinez and others we front loaded contracts. We were very healthy under Gettleman and Abrams until jobs were on the line.

So, you are saying my post is dumb? Lol. Please tell me who made these decision? Who's job was it to bring in these players? Where did the pressure come from? Who was in charge of contract negotiations and structures? You can't be confident this was all on Abrams. The truth is, nobody knows this except those inside the building so you getting all bent out of shape is nuts. Go relax. I don't think Abrams getting fired will help how you feel.

In comment 15716113 BillT said:

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And the guy who was, Ed Triggs, did what DG told him to do. DG and Judge with the approval of Mara decided to go on a spending spree. That’s on them not the cap manager.

I don’t know why this keeps getting overlooked

Abrams, didn’t decide whom to spend on, he was told to make happen what they wanted done. He didn’t negotiate contracts

In comment 15716132 joeinpa said:

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In comment 15716113 BillT said: Quote: And the guy who was, Ed Triggs, did what DG told him to do. DG and Judge with the approval of Mara decided to go on a spending spree. That’s on them not the cap manager. I don’t know why this keeps getting overlooked Abrams, didn’t decide whom to spend on, he was told to make happen what they wanted done. He didn’t negotiate contracts

Like you know this how?

In comment 15716132 joeinpa said:

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In comment 15716113 BillT said: Quote: And the guy who was, Ed Triggs, did what DG told him to do. DG and Judge with the approval of Mara decided to go on a spending spree. That’s on them not the cap manager. I don’t know why this keeps getting overlooked Abrams, didn’t decide whom to spend on, he was told to make happen what they wanted done. He didn’t negotiate contracts

Actually, it’s likely he did negotiate the contracts, it was part if his job. But it was DG who told him who’s contact to negotiate and what the budget was for the contract. He did the details. dG and Mara signed off on them.

Wait Abrams was just doing what he said

No, wait, it was Ed Triggs

No, wait now he just has a no show job.

Nobody know anything other than, our cap was completely mismanaged and the same nimrods who were part of that titanic crew are still here in the building.

But keep drinking the Kool Aid

In comment 15716135 Essex said:

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In comment 15716132 joeinpa said: Quote: In comment 15716113 BillT said: Quote: And the guy who was, Ed Triggs, did what DG told him to do. DG and Judge with the approval of Mara decided to go on a spending spree. That’s on them not the cap manager. I don’t know why this keeps getting overlooked Abrams, didn’t decide whom to spend on, he was told to make happen what they wanted done. He didn’t negotiate contracts Like you know this how?

Because it’s been reported that this is what happened, if you’re paying attention.

In comment 15716139 Essex said:

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Wait Abrams was just doing what he said No, wait, it was Ed Triggs No, wait now he just has a no show job. Nobody know anything other than, our cap was completely mismanaged and the same nimrods who were part of that titanic crew are still here in the building. But keep drinking the Kool Aid

We’re not the ones confused here Essex. You are.

In comment 15716143 BillT said:

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In comment 15716139 Essex said: Quote: Wait Abrams was just doing what he said No, wait, it was Ed Triggs No, wait now he just has a no show job. Nobody know anything other than, our cap was completely mismanaged and the same nimrods who were part of that titanic crew are still here in the building. But keep drinking the Kool Aid We’re not the ones confused here Essex. You are.

I’m not confused at all. I’m literally going on facts. You guys are going on what you think happened and have no clue what did happen. But go for it.

Triggs managed the spreadsheet that gives the hard numbers of what the cap outlook is and how much space we have and how it can be manipulated. Abrams has been in charge of the face to face contract negotiations with the agents. But, it’s was DG and Judge and Mara who decide who to sign and how much to pay them. This is how business works most everywhere. The execs make the call, the subordinates execute the details. This could have changed under Schoen but this is the way it was under DG.

However, Abrams was once considered a cap genius. When better, overall, decisions were being made. To our knowledge, KA didn’t have a hand in personnel decisions. If Schoen sees some value in keeping him around, and apparently he does, we’ve got to see how it all shakes out. Continuing to bitch about the same topics will just drive us mad. New regime, new expectations, but with that comes patience as the plan unfolds

First, I bet if you look at cash output for 2021 the Giants are very high on that list, having paid Williams, Golladay, and Jackson their bonuses.

Second, I think many of you are confusing cap management with resource allocation.

There’s a great video from last year where Abrams describes his role and how he was the architect in many ways of the multi year financial plan.

at the end of the year to push Abrams. Mara wanted him to succeed DG. Thank god for Steve Tisch.

You were here along with the rest of us when the Giants spent a bunch of money on Free Agents in 2021 and pushed the cap hit of those new contracts to 2022.

But Hey, lets pretend to be shocked and dismay by the fact that the 2022 cap space is limited over and fucking over again like a fucking goldfish with a two minute attention span.

In comment 15716159 christian said:

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First, I bet if you look at cash output for 2021 the Giants are very high on that list, having paid Williams, Golladay, and Jackson their bonuses. Second, I think many of you are confusing cap management with resource allocation. There’s a great video from last year where Abrams describes his role and how he was the architect in many ways of the multi year financial plan.

I wish I had seen this before I posted. Well said...

but I wouldn't say that the cap was mismanaged, when taking into account our available cap in 2023 and 2024. To look at only this years salary cap and not the cap over a multi-year period is juvenile. Void years and contract restructures are a major part of working with the salary cap, because if you have too much cap space and are forced to spend (with the salary floor), you're going to get boned in free agency.

In comment 15716166 Semipro Lineman said:

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You were here along with the rest of us when the Giants spent a bunch of money on Free Agents in 2021 and pushed the cap hit of those new contracts to 2022. But Hey, lets pretend to be shocked and dismay by the fact that the 2022 cap space is limited over and fucking over again like a fucking goldfish with a two minute attention span.

given the horrible nature of our financial situation why more people weren't let go from that area of the business. It was primarily football people that were let go but you could argue that the resource allocation portion of the business was run just as poorly. Anyone that doesn't accept DG and Mara leaned on people that are very much still in the building on those issues is being willfully ignorant.

People are often so obsessed with wanting to wave the mission accomplished banner around here they ignore fairly obvious remaining problems.

at handling the cap. They were in great position and were fiscally responsible. What some don't seem to understand is there are systems. People like to focus on one thing or one person. The reason we are where we are has nothing to do with those handling the contracts. It had to do with poor talent evaluation, poor development of players, poor coaching, poor management, and when you basically have people put in a do or die situation then you get careless spending. Those doing the cap did not just forget how to do their job.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 15716172 NoGainDayne said:

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People are often so obsessed with wanting to wave the mission accomplished banner around here they ignore fairly obvious remaining problems.

The "HEADS MUSH ROLLS!1!1!1 crew calling others obsessed is hilarious.

Personnel changes aren’t and shouldn’t be made overnight. Except for the people who obviously needed to go, decisions on everyone else should be based on performance. We saw that Schoen waited until after the draft to make decisions on the scouting department and those may still be ongoing. He is likely to be doing the same with the management team but it will take a while. There also is the concept of institutional memory which probably comes into play in this situation. Schoen needs to learn and understand why certain personnel decisions were made. Probably only two sources of that information - John Mara and Kevin Abrams. It may take input from both of them and maybe others (Chris Mara and Tim McDonald, for example) in order to figure out what really happened and how to avoid mistakes in the future. When stepping into a new position, institutional memory has some real value, especially dealing with people who are trying to protect their jobs.

is not an obsession, it's pretty logical actually

If you can't see how every year there are similar "this is the year we turn it around we fixed x,y,z" as a pattern that maybe some want to be aware of and point out I don't know what else to tell you.

I don't think there are any "heads must roll" "people" as you express. The second these people start doing their jobs well I will cease to have an opinion on their employment status. But it is certainly hard to argue whoever has been near the cap or resource allocation analysis has done their job well at all.

So yeah, the "we don't know if they were the ones responsible" and "this is the year they are going to perform well" attitudes are the obsessions and a refusal to be grounded in fairly simple logic.

You are the one choosing to ignore the data. 10 years of it. If I even get 2 years of good data you won't hear me talking about people doing their jobs poorly anymore. Or saying "hey you know what, maybe these people who I'm just randomly choosing to like aren't part of the success, hell, I hear they are involved in other things, not what's making this team good"

Because THAT would be stupid.

They backload everything and keep doing it every year. They are now 58 million over next years cap like they were this year.
The Giants could extend Williams and save a ton of cap space but if the team is unwilling to do that and also only do 3 year contracts the upfront bonus money is spread out over a shorter period of time even using the 4th year as a bonus year on the bonus even though the player is not signed to play. A lot of teams are using this as a way to save cap space like Dallas who has longer term contracts. Longer term contracts are risky if the player does not work out.

The smartest thing to do next season 2023 is to stay out of the first wave of free agency. See Green Bay and the Colts.

In comment 15716166 Semipro Lineman said:

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You were here along with the rest of us when the Giants spent a bunch of money on Free Agents in 2021 and pushed the cap hit of those new contracts to 2022. But Hey, lets pretend to be shocked and dismay by the fact that the 2022 cap space is limited over and fucking over again like a fucking goldfish with a two minute attention span.

Isn't it a 10 or 15 second span?

A goldfish attention span is reportedly 10 to 15 seconds. Which is obviously longer than many in this group who keep repeating the fact that the Giants haven't made good player personnel decisions as proof that the Giants aren't managing the cap well despite the fact that they usually had the cap space to make the bad personnel decision with one or two exceptions in the last ten years.

.

In comment 15716172 NoGainDayne said:

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People are often so obsessed with wanting to wave the mission accomplished banner around here they ignore fairly obvious remaining problems.

Few truer statements about BBI have ever been made.

including bonus money. You had no space to sign high $$ long term contracts so our Cash Spending is low. How hard is that to understand?

Our current regime wanted to set this team up for the future by eliminating all of the contract they could on players that are not going to be here long term. So instead of adding void years to contracts like the one that Bradberry signed with the Eagles, we cut Bradberry.

DG is the guy that made the final call. He was the boss, no one knows how these deals went down or if Abrams or anyone else said we cant afford it. Its done. Its been beaten to death. the cap situation next year looks good but the roster is going to need more players just to get to 53. So will Schoen shop in the bargain bin, middle of the road or go for the high priced star? If DJ has a great year that will be $30-$45 Million to sign him. Will Mara tell Schoen to sign Saquon if he has a great year? Will Golladay and/or Williams be on the team next year?

The big cap space will go quick, we need a QB. We need a #1 WR. Those are expensive positions. How will Schoen handle that? If DGs big signings had worked out no one would care how much they got. Its not how much you pay or overpay, its production and wins and losses. If Solder was a stud it would have been a good signing at that price, if Golladay lit it up no one would care about the contract.

Just move forward, this is our team aside from some low end signings or vet low end 1 year deals. Root for some diamonds in the rough to help get this team back in contention.

NY Giant fans that can continue to discuss the team here in 2022 knowing that people like Kevin Abrams and Chris Mara still exist in the building in whatever capacity even though you despise them so. Well done...

In comment 15716265 Rudy5757 said:

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including bonus money. You had no space to sign high $$ long term contracts so our Cash Spending is low. How hard is that to understand?

It’s not hard to understand—it’s hard to fathom that we could be so mismanaged and some of the culprits are still around.

And that DG was not a good GM. But some of this is hindsight. Many here, including me thought they could challenge for the division title as silly as it seems now. They ended the previous year really well and we all thought JJ was the long term answer. In that context adding some players didn't seem outrageous. They did it poorly and neglected the line for some reason. But the idea behind wasn't as bad as we are now making it out to be.

With the gift of hindsight...we were much worse...and the moves look terrible. JJ turned out to be a poor choice. But I think many of us are forgetting last year's preseason optimism.

maybe start another thread about Nate Solder's contract?

In comment 15716329 Kanavis said:

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And that DG was not a good GM. But some of this is hindsight. Many here, including me thought they could challenge for the division title as silly as it seems now. They ended the previous year really well and we all thought JJ was the long term answer. In that context adding some players didn't seem outrageous. They did it poorly and neglected the line for some reason. But the idea behind wasn't as bad as we are now making it out to be. With the gift of hindsight...we were much worse...and the moves look terrible. JJ turned out to be a poor choice. But I think many of us are forgetting last year's preseason optimism.

The players who made us optimistic last year are still with us. Only this year, we aren’t optimistic about them - just hopeful. Barkley, Jones, Jackson, Golladay, Toney, Ojalari. Except for Ojalari and maybe Jackson, the others let us down. This year what we are hoping is that they can’t be as bad as they showed in 2021. Our optimism has shifted to Thibs, Neal, Robinson, and that our GM and HC are better than the last ones.

....is the fact that the salary cap was mismanaged so incredibly poorly that they could not even field a full team for the final game of the season last year because they could not afford to pay the players.

I think this gets forgotten, but this is an embarrassment of epic proportions. How in the world can a front office/general manager allow that to happen???

That has been plaguing this team for many years was the inability to find quality depth and the rare starter in rounds 3-7 forcing us to overpay in FA for depth, rotational players and marginal starters. Hopefully with Schoen and Co, that fortune can and will change.

Just focusing on cash spend -- Schoen could have spent more cash if that was the strategy.

But that cash has to be accounted for on the current year's balance sheet (very little room) or a future year's -- which he was reluctant to do.

I like the approach of taking a year and assessing the current state of the roster before making big commitments.

This is the polar opposite of what Rabbit Foot Dave did in year one.

In comment 15716329 Kanavis said:

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And that DG was not a good GM. But some of this is hindsight. Many here, including me thought they could challenge for the division title as silly as it seems now. They ended the previous year really well

They didn't though. They lost every game they needed to win. They were 1-3 in the final 4 games, and that final game they were already out of and beat a Dallas team missing their starting QB.

1. I thought it was common knowledge that Abrams hasn't been handling the cap for years.

2. When he was handling the cap he was lauded as doing a very good job at it on this very board.

3. Regardless, whoever handles the cap has to do what he's told. I don't even blame whoever the hell was handling the cap during the DG era. Cap guy, "Mr Gettleman. Sir I don't think that deal is a good idea. I think ....." Gettleman, "I don't care, just make it work". Alternatively, Cap guy, "We should pick up player X and Y this year. I can make it work". Gettleman, "Duh, ok, I'm too stupid to know any better even though I was hired to know better but I have to authorize it so go ahead. I will blindly trust your decision here".

The GM makes those decisions.

4. It seems very clear that Schoen is calling the shots. Do we think he's involved in the cap strategy? I think it's very clear that he's very involved. Do you think he would let the cap guy do the same thing that DG did? Abrams (presumably) did?

5. WTF cares about Abrams right now. Seriously? Abrams? Why stop there? I hear the janitor is terrible at his job. Why is he still there?

In comment 15716423 Vin_Cuccs said:

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....is the fact that the salary cap was mismanaged so incredibly poorly that they could not even field a full team for the final game of the season last year because they could not afford to pay the players. I think this gets forgotten, but this is an embarrassment of epic proportions. How in the world can a front office/general manager allow that to happen???

Vin, to be fair the team had the worst injury situation in the league since 2009. They had to replace an inordinate number of players. It was really almost beyond comprehension. DG was a bad GM but that isn’t the reason.

In comment 15716641 BillT said:

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In comment 15716423 Vin_Cuccs said: Quote: ....is the fact that the salary cap was mismanaged so incredibly poorly that they could not even field a full team for the final game of the season last year because they could not afford to pay the players. I think this gets forgotten, but this is an embarrassment of epic proportions. How in the world can a front office/general manager allow that to happen??? Vin, to be fair the team had the worst injury situation in the league since 2009. They had to replace an inordinate number of players. It was really almost beyond comprehension. DG was a bad GM but that isn’t the reason.

I understand. Injuries are unfortunate. But injuries happen to every single team. The front office has to be prepared for this. They have to have some money to operate during the season.

Honest question...can you (or anyone) recall another team that could not afford to pay players?

I do not remember this ever happening to any other team.