There is something that does not seem right in Baltimore land. It's pretty wide known that Lamar is acting as his own agent and wants the money some of the top QBs are getting but Baltimore has yet to commit to him.
Now he is skipping OTAs (voluntary mind you), but Lamar fired shots at Chris Simms for Simms calling him out for skipping OTAs and Lamar basically said - these are voluntary and Lamar will be Lamar.
What should be noted that Lamar had his worst year as a starter last year. Plus he suffered his first somewhat major injury as well and missed the last 5 games.
I have made no bones about my attitude towards Lamar that he is not a guy you an win with in the playoffs, so Baltimore letting him walk may not be the worst idea. They got rid of his best WR as well.
Seems like things arent to swell there unless I am missing something?
It’s a win-win for LJax. Team either pays him ridiculous money, takes the injury risk, and he delightfully plays on a bottom 10 offensive roster.
Or, they let him walk and another team delightfully pays him 50m+ with more guaranteed money than the Ravens would have ever agreed to and a less team-friendly deal, due to the ability to negotiate with more than one team.
Letting him walk would likely be best for both parties imo
They drafted him because they needed a new 1B and thought that maybe his game would evolve and it hasnt.
They drafted him because they needed a new 1B and thought that maybe his game would evolve and it hasnt.
Just a reminder, Jax was the MVP in 2019. You know, the award that means you were the best player in the league.
From nearly all accounts, the Ravens want to re-sign Jax. Apparently, the issue is the amount of money Jax is looking for...I mean, don't most high end QB negotiations normally take time?
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Is this outside of the box, genius team is such a canard of an argument. They drafted Jax because they took a chance on him learning to become a good, smart QB. While Jackson has incredible abilities, he has not improved from what he was in college. He has been successful because he plays behind one of the best O lines in football every year (last year may have been an exception....Im not familiar with the numbers tho) and he never comes up very big in the playoffs when he is facing defenses that make him have to throw the ball all the time. Now he is starting to get hurt. If Jackson was this excellent QB that some like bw in dc are saying he is and saying how we just dont understand the offense Roman is trying to run, why arent they in a rush to sign him long term? Makes no sense if he was the key to this Roman offense that is so effective and devastating that they are balking at the idea of giving him what he wants.
They drafted him because they needed a new 1B and thought that maybe his game would evolve and it hasnt.
Just a reminder, Jax was the MVP in 2019. You know, the award that means you were the best player in the league
And last year he put up numbers closer to Daniel Jones. So what is he?
Just a reminder, Jax was the MVP in 2019. You know, the award that means you were the best player in the league
And last year he put up numbers closer to Daniel Jones. So what is he?
Again, by QBR and AY/A or Y/A, Jax was a top ten QB in 2019 and 2020. He had an off year in 2021 largely because he got hurt.
Before he got injured, you do realize Jax was in the MVP discussion last year, right? Through his those eight games, he had 13TDs/6 INTs, completing 65% of his passes, QBR was around 53, 8.3 Y/A and 700 rushing yards. That was very solid production with all of the starting RBs out for the year, Staley out for the year, injuries at WR, Boyle out all year, etc.
It would be wise to leave Jones out of this conversation.
Regardless of whether LJ ever becomes a FA, the Giants should NOT go near the guy. The tread on those tires is getting worn fast. The leg injuries are piling up. If people think the tread on Barkley’s tires is low, LJ’s is worse. He also began showing signs this season of getting gun-shy in the pocket from the abuse he has taken behind bad OLs the past several seasons.
He simply isn’t the same QB he was even two years ago. Let another team tie up a quarter of their cap in him.
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In comment 15719922 FrankHuntington said:
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Is this outside of the box, genius team is such a canard of an argument. They drafted Jax because they took a chance on him learning to become a good, smart QB. While Jackson has incredible abilities, he has not improved from what he was in college. He has been successful because he plays behind one of the best O lines in football every year (last year may have been an exception....Im not familiar with the numbers tho) and he never comes up very big in the playoffs when he is facing defenses that make him have to throw the ball all the time. Now he is starting to get hurt. If Jackson was this excellent QB that some like bw in dc are saying he is and saying how we just dont understand the offense Roman is trying to run, why arent they in a rush to sign him long term? Makes no sense if he was the key to this Roman offense that is so effective and devastating that they are balking at the idea of giving him what he wants.
They drafted him because they needed a new 1B and thought that maybe his game would evolve and it hasnt.
Just a reminder, Jax was the MVP in 2019. You know, the award that means you were the best player in the league
And last year he put up numbers closer to Daniel Jones. So what is he?
So he had a great year what will be 4 years ago....what has he done to advance the Ravens in the playoffs? You know, the point of finding and keeping players in the draft and free agency?
Im sttuggling to aee your point through your snarky as hell response to my very reasonable argument. You can be as flippant as you want, but yes, while Jackson put up Madden type numbers in 2019, he really hasnt been too spectacular and now he wants Boku dollars. I wouldnt give him Dax money much less Mahomes or Watson.
Im not sure if you are asking me, but personally, I would NOT give 8n to his demands (mega deal which commits to him for 6-10 years). Yes, I would happily move on from Jackson unless he game down closer to Kirk Cousin numbers (first contract he signed 8n Minnesote. This way, he gets a decent contract and is eligible to try free agency again in a few years.
?????
They played with a back up first str8ng last year. When Lamar played, they made the playoffs. If Lamar doesnt come back on a reasonable deal, I look for another option at QB or look to rebuild. Ravens have hinted that they are ready to do just that by trading both Browns, Hollywood and Orlando. I would not be held hostage by my now middling starting QB.
Baltimore had a short window with Lamar and now it is all but readily apparent that he isnt going to get it done for them. Keep Andrews, Ronnie Staley and a few others, but rel9ading is in their best interest, because they are a fringe top 10 team in the league at this point and its not going to get better.
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was RG3 a run first QB? Run first in the sense that he has 1 read and if its not there, he looks to run. That's absolutely Ljax. Theres a reason he's looked pedestrian in the playoffs and can't elevate his team, its because you need to pass from the pocket at some point. You need to be able to go through progressions because teams are too good in the playoffs.
Its also why he will never have a #1 WR, IMO. He can't throw guys open and he can't buy time until they get open. If he buys time, its to run. Thus run first.
You don't go 36/6 and 26/9 - TDs/INTs ratio - in back to back years, and with no #1 WR, without an ability to read defenses.
The Ravens/Roman run Jax because he's one of the greatest run threats in the history of the NFL. Should they not exploit that great skill?
Now, I'm not saying Jax is on the same level as Mahomes, Rodgers, Brady, Allen, etc. But he's a top 10-12 passing QB in the league. The numbers support that. I agree that he certainly needs to improve, but he's much better than the posters on the thread are willing to concede.
To the OP's remarks, I do think the Ravens need to give think very carefully about giving Jax top dollar. There injury variable can't be overlooked.
He IS a good QB overall. However, he's been awful so far in the playoffs, and he's not going to be nearly as valuable when he's getting paid top QB $$$. The odds are good he'll suffer another major injury before that big $$$ contract is over
Just a reminder, Jax was the MVP in 2019. You know, the award that means you were the best player in the league.
LOL!!! That was THREE years ago, who gives a shit? Three years ago is a lifetime in the NFL
So your response is to be the QB that is demanding champion dollars when hes won what? One playoff game in his career?
He has a sub 56% comp %, a sub 70 rating, 3 TDs, 5 interceptions, has been sacked 19 times, thrown for less than 7 yards per attempt and fumbled the ball 5 times (losing 2) in 4 career playoff games.
Now you challenged med me about how they were getting to the playoffs. Would you give that QB the contract he wants with those numbers? Just as you asked how I would get the Ravens back to the playoffs and I said "sign another QB or start over" how are YOU getting the Ravens to actually contending again.
This is foolish. He has put up good regular season numbers for a few years because the team arpumd him was excellent and the league was prob not ready for him, but he is a missling to above average QB who is a stat machine who you cant rely on in the playoffs and they should tell him to take 5 years, 80 million with 60 guaranteed, or take 3 years 65 million with 50 guaranteed....something like that. If he doesnt like it, go with the regular season somewhere else.
No, I dont have it figured out. You made an assertion that Lamar was an integral part to the Ravens making the playoffs. I explained why I didnt think that was the case and even gave you a spitball figure for my stance. This is the 2nd time I have asked you for yours and to substantiate it and now you are sayi g you don't want to argue about it after making an argument about it.
The guy has had 4 years, and while he has produced he has not produced at an elite level in the playoffs (despite even having the 1 seed at least ince and is kinda trending down.
So I will wait for you to show me why you would pay him 100 million plus for the production I outlined in the postseason.
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you’ve got it figured out, no point continuing.
No, I dont have it figured out. You made an assertion that Lamar was an integral part to the Ravens making the playoffs. I explained why I didnt think that was the case and even gave you a spitball figure for my stance. This is the 2nd time I have asked you for yours and to substantiate it and now you are sayi g you don't want to argue about it after making an argument about it.
The guy has had 4 years, and while he has produced he has not produced at an elite level in the playoffs (despite even having the 1 seed at least ince and is kinda trending down.
So I will wait for you to show me why you would pay him 100 million plus for the production I outlined in the postseason.
Don't waste your time. He is the expert on QB play. Wanted Willis at 5 and always chiming on QB play. Does not like to accept his viewpoints are potentially wrong and tries to flip the script on who opposes his views.
Lamar has had a nice career and benefitted being on a team who has been good in drafting quality NFL players and keeps the lines strong. That equation becomes much more difficult when he becomes expensive. The sticking point probably comes down to length and guaranteed money and they are far apart on those numbers.
In those three games combined, he was under 50% completion %, 1 TD and 2 INTs. He was getting the same criticism as Jax.
They aren't the same player skill set wise, but it's a worthwhile point in that even someone considered a terrific passer couldn't get it done early in his career during the playoffs.
I look at it this way - would I rather have LJ or Dak as my QB. Personally, I take Dak. No doubt that LJ is the better athlete, but I feel Dak sees the field better. He can certainly move and make plays. He is 6'4" and 235 lbs - sturdy build.
Is LJ worth $40 mill per season? Tough question. I do not see that long term. I think, unless he stops running as much as he does, he will start getting more injuries. He is still pretty elusive, but you can see him being a little less so now as opposed to even seasons years ago.
In those three games combined, he was under 50% completion %, 1 TD and 2 INTs. He was getting the same criticism as Jax.
They aren't the same player skill set wise, but it's a worthwhile point in that even someone considered a terrific passer couldn't get it done early in his career during the playoffs.
It is embarrassing to compare the two from the perspective of playing in the pocket and what is considered traditional QB play. Just like it's embarrassing to compare PM's running ability's to Lamar's ability.
It was also a much different league then from a defensive perspective and Polian was a big force behind the major rule changes that all QB's (and WR's) benefit from playing against today.
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In comment 15719968 bw in dc said:
Just a reminder, Jax was the MVP in 2019. You know, the award that means you were the best player in the league
And last year he put up numbers closer to Daniel Jones. So what is he?
Again, by QBR and AY/A or Y/A, Jax was a top ten QB in 2019 and 2020. He had an off year in 2021 largely because he got hurt.
Before he got injured, you do realize Jax was in the MVP discussion last year, right? Through his those eight games, he had 13TDs/6 INTs, completing 65% of his passes, QBR was around 53, 8.3 Y/A and 700 rushing yards. That was very solid production with all of the starting RBs out for the year, Staley out for the year, injuries at WR, Boyle out all year, etc.
It would be wise to leave Jones out of this conversation.
He didn’t have an off year because he got hurt. He had an off year cause he played poorly. Once he got hurt - he didn’t play the rest of the year. He had 18 TDs and 16 turnovers- which isn’t even close to being a MVP level player. That’s Daniel Jones territory.
So again I ask - is he the guy he was four years ago or is he closer to a Daniel Jones type player? He wasn’t good last year outside a few games. Reason why? He can’t throw a football on a consistent basis.
We have explained why a certain stat may be skewed by you refuse to listen. No surprise here.
In those three games combined, he was under 50% completion %, 1 TD and 2 INTs. He was getting the same criticism as Jax.
They aren't the same player skill set wise, but it's a worthwhile point in that even someone considered a terrific passer couldn't get it done early in his career during the playoffs.
Its a worthwhile point, but Ljax is nowhere near the player Manning was and I do believe LJax peaked already. I think that for a few reasons:
1. He needs to be a threat running for the offense to succeed and he's only going to get older and more beat up.
2. Teams know how he plays. It's not quite a gimmick offense, but it's an offense that teams seem to know a lot better now and I don't think he's capable of evolving as a passer.
I think the window to win with a guy like him is on his rookie deal because he needs a stud defense(not just good, but Ray Lewis style defense) and a stud TE(which he has).
Personally, I like LJ's skills as a dual threat QB, but I think Roman's system has limitations. There QB2 looked pretty good last year, would be surprised to see him as a gap QB for another option if Lamar leaves.
Furthermore just looking at this years draft there were a couple of LJax lites in the 3rd round and later.
In those three games combined, he was under 50% completion %, 1 TD and 2 INTs. He was getting the same criticism as Jax.
They aren't the same player skill set wise, but it's a worthwhile point in that even someone considered a terrific passer couldn't get it done early in his career during the playoffs.
I cant believe you just made this comparison. This is the epitome of a straw man fallacy. Two different leagues, two different situations and two different QBs with two different trends in their careers.
What a load of horse shit. So what would you pay Jackson if you were the Ravens.
Youre making an argument for the sake of making an argument and its tedious and annoying.
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Just a reminder, Jax was the MVP in 2019. You know, the award that means you were the best player in the league.
LOL!!! That was THREE years ago, who gives a shit? Three years ago is a lifetime in the NFL
I don't often agree with Speedy, but this post is spot on. Three years is a long time ago
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Peyton Manning lost his first three playoff games. Three consecutive years one and done.
In those three games combined, he was under 50% completion %, 1 TD and 2 INTs. He was getting the same criticism as Jax.
They aren't the same player skill set wise, but it's a worthwhile point in that even someone considered a terrific passer couldn't get it done early in his career during the playoffs.
I cant believe you just made this comparison. This is the epitome of a straw man fallacy. Two different leagues, two different situations and two different QBs with two different trends in their careers.
What a load of horse shit. So what would you pay Jackson if you were the Ravens.
Youre making an argument for the sake of making an argument and its tedious and annoying.
I'm comparing the slow start each has had in the playoffs after regular season success. Which actually is comparable. Don't look at Peyton Manning the HoF. Look at him in his first three years.
That would require some research and reading, but it really shouldn't take long.
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In comment 15720139 bw in dc said:
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Peyton Manning lost his first three playoff games. Three consecutive years one and done.
In those three games combined, he was under 50% completion %, 1 TD and 2 INTs. He was getting the same criticism as Jax.
They aren't the same player skill set wise, but it's a worthwhile point in that even someone considered a terrific passer couldn't get it done early in his career during the playoffs.
I cant believe you just made this comparison. This is the epitome of a straw man fallacy. Two different leagues, two different situations and two different QBs with two different trends in their careers.
What a load of horse shit. So what would you pay Jackson if you were the Ravens.
Youre making an argument for the sake of making an argument and its tedious and annoying.
I'm comparing the slow start each has had in the playoffs after regular season success. Which actually is comparable. Don't look at Peyton Manning the HoF. Look at him in his first three years.
That would require some research and reading, but it really shouldn't take long.
No, it would not take long. Jackson's passing stats are as close to Peyton's as they are through the first four seasons because he threw the ball 132 fewer times than Peyton did. Peyton routinely threw for over 4k every year save his rookie year and 2005 (just over 3700 in both and both times far more than Lamar has ever thrown for.
This is a ridiculous comparison. Not only were Lamar's passing numbers vastlay inflated because he is a running threat, but he has gotten worse every season. You are comparing a regressing player on a rookie contract who won an MVP in the first 2 years of his career to arguably the greatest qb of all time. This is akin to comparing Jevon Kearse's career to Michael Sttahan's based on the first 3 years. I can't believe you are defending this.
I have already asked you, but you have avoided answering (which makes sense given how bad your argument is) if you were a Ravens fan, would you give Lamar Jackson a Dak level contract?
Ive been on this site for a short time, but I have noticed you will literally argue any position no matter how little sense it makes. But when people ask you to answer a question directly, you hardly ever do.
WHAT WOULD YOU PAY LAMAR JACKSON?
He seems FAIRLY knowledgeable and I dont believe in passing judgeme so soon. Plus, having been accused of being a trol (an over-used word that has morphed into a term to describe posters with whom one disagrees) I am not keen on labeling anybody yet.
In those three games combined, he was under 50% completion %, 1 TD and 2 INTs. He was getting the same criticism as Jax.
They aren't the same player skill set wise, but it's a worthwhile point in that even someone considered a terrific passer couldn't get it done early in his career during the playoffs.
Yea and Baltimore’s OC took Tyrod Taylor to the playoffs.
What we’ve seen from dumbass Lamar is his absolute ceiling. He has no where to go but down and it’s going to happen given his limitations and when the injuries start piling up.
If he does hit FA and another team breaks the bank for him, they better be bringing Balt’s OC too. If not it will go down as the worst FA acquisition in the history of the sport.
Whatever, the sun is shining, the rosé is luke and Im eating steak tonight.
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Peyton Manning lost his first three playoff games. Three consecutive years one and done.
In those three games combined, he was under 50% completion %, 1 TD and 2 INTs. He was getting the same criticism as Jax.
They aren't the same player skill set wise, but it's a worthwhile point in that even someone considered a terrific passer couldn't get it done early in his career during the playoffs.
Yea and Baltimore’s OC took Tyrod Taylor to the playoffs.
What we’ve seen from dumbass Lamar is his absolute ceiling. He has no where to go but down and it’s going to happen given his limitations and when the injuries start piling up.
If he does hit FA and another team breaks the bank for him, they better be bringing Balt’s OC too. If not it will go down as the worst FA acquisition in the history of the sport.
This "they built the offense around LJ" thing....is that really true? If so, how? Andrews was already there. The line is largely the same (acquiring Zeitler and Linderbaum while losing Brown is kind of a wash), they got Dobbins but traded Holly wood Brown. How is any of that building atound LJ's game? If anything, losing Hollywood affects LJ negatively and would signal that they are less concerned with structuring the offense around LJ.
I don't know why I am so into this discussion except for the the fact that the reasoning to NOT keep LJ Baltimore is much stronger than keeping him if he thinks he deserves a mega deal.
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In comment 15720139 bw in dc said:
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Peyton Manning lost his first three playoff games. Three consecutive years one and done.
In those three games combined, he was under 50% completion %, 1 TD and 2 INTs. He was getting the same criticism as Jax.
They aren't the same player skill set wise, but it's a worthwhile point in that even someone considered a terrific passer couldn't get it done early in his career during the playoffs.
Yea and Baltimore’s OC took Tyrod Taylor to the playoffs.
What we’ve seen from dumbass Lamar is his absolute ceiling. He has no where to go but down and it’s going to happen given his limitations and when the injuries start piling up.
If he does hit FA and another team breaks the bank for him, they better be bringing Balt’s OC too. If not it will go down as the worst FA acquisition in the history of the sport.
This "they built the offense around LJ" thing....is that really true? If so, how? Andrews was already there. The line is largely the same (acquiring Zeitler and Linderbaum while losing Brown is kind of a wash), they got Dobbins but traded Holly wood Brown. How is any of that building atound LJ's game? If anything, losing Hollywood affects LJ negatively and would signal that they are less concerned with structuring the offense around LJ.
I don't know why I am so into this discussion except for the the fact that the reasoning to NOT keep LJ Baltimore is much stronger than keeping him if he thinks he deserves a mega deal.
Check the history on Greg Roman. SF OC (Kapernick), Buff OC (Tyrod), and Lamar’s OC. He builds offenses around running QBs, particularly those who aren’t good passers.
So yes, it’s completely built around Lamar. If some team pays him in FA to be a true franchise QB it will be a massive mistake.
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In comment 15720446 WillVAB said:
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In comment 15720139 bw in dc said:
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Peyton Manning lost his first three playoff games. Three consecutive years one and done.
In those three games combined, he was under 50% completion %, 1 TD and 2 INTs. He was getting the same criticism as Jax.
They aren't the same player skill set wise, but it's a worthwhile point in that even someone considered a terrific passer couldn't get it done early in his career during the playoffs.
Yea and Baltimore’s OC took Tyrod Taylor to the playoffs.
What we’ve seen from dumbass Lamar is his absolute ceiling. He has no where to go but down and it’s going to happen given his limitations and when the injuries start piling up.
If he does hit FA and another team breaks the bank for him, they better be bringing Balt’s OC too. If not it will go down as the worst FA acquisition in the history of the sport.
This "they built the offense around LJ" thing....is that really true? If so, how? Andrews was already there. The line is largely the same (acquiring Zeitler and Linderbaum while losing Brown is kind of a wash), they got Dobbins but traded Holly wood Brown. How is any of that building atound LJ's game? If anything, losing Hollywood affects LJ negatively and would signal that they are less concerned with structuring the offense around LJ.
I don't know why I am so into this discussion except for the the fact that the reasoning to NOT keep LJ Baltimore is much stronger than keeping him if he thinks he deserves a mega deal.
Check the history on Greg Roman. SF OC (Kapernick), Buff OC (Tyrod), and Lamar’s OC. He builds offenses around running QBs, particularly those who aren’t good passers.
So yes, it’s completely built around Lamar. If some team pays him in FA to be a true franchise QB it will be a massive mistake.
.......okay.......so HOW (which is what I originally asked) did he do that? By structuring the playbook a certain way? Because if so, that is a lame explanation as this Ravens team is built, personnel-wise, like almost any other NFL team. It would be one thing if the Ravens built the team like the Niners where they had a multiple WR/RB like Deebo Samuel or Kordarell Patyerson (spelling prob off), a possession/YAC WR like Ayiuk along with a sophisticated sunning game that sought to blow open huge running holes.
Thats not what happened in Baltimore. Yes they called more designed runs but it was very similar to his Louisville system.
Lastly, the examples you gave of R9man creating these fabulously tailored offenses to Taylor, Kaepernick and Jackson didnt pan out for very long. They wound up coming back to earth in meteoric fashion.
I will ask again....4th time, someone suggest a number of what kind of contract Jackson is worth. 5/100 with 60 gtd? 4/120 with 80 gtd? 3/72 fully gtd?
Everybody has an opinion but nobody wants to quote a figure. I said 3/65 with 40 gtd would get me on board, but not much more. Thing is, I doubt LJ takes that.
I have not seen much of him but when I have it’s been impressive in the regular season; but playoffs is another story.
The criticism of a qb like this was always injured and not effective in the playoff s. Further with him it was he’d be found out. I don’t know if he was playing hurt but he might have gotten found out.
And let’s manage expectations with Peyton. He was supposed to be a generation talent the best player in high school and college playing on a bad team. Lamar Jackson coming out was someone who should switch positions from QB.
I would be, too, if I were him. It's like they are setting him up to underperform in his contract year.
He literally carried that team last year until his injury - and the team immediately went in the toilet when he went down.
I'd take him on the Giants in a heartbeat.