Had this debate with a friend at work today. I think the ineptitude of the coaching staff and GM at that time would have ruined his career. He felt that Allen would have become a star on the Giants as well.
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Because, as I explained at length above, the takeaway of those historical examples is that those late bloomers are not only the exception, but even more importantly, the way that the cap/contract rules have changed means that those guys would have run out of chances much, much earlier.
You can't apply those past examples to the current/future, because there isn't any logical way to factor for salary cap and the extreme rise in veteran QB salaries.
everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.
But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.
What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.
Have you ever watched Daniel Jones in his long three years and been in awe of any play he has made? A play where you said, "JFC, this guy is a special talent and we're lucky to have him..."
I know I have said that about Allen, Mahomes and Herbert in any of their first two years. All QBs, btw, we could have and should have drafted.
I don't see Steve Young. I see John Elway, part II. Young did not have the arm Allen has.
Jones had a couple of "Wow" plays his first season.
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Because it doesn't make sense to give a guy that many chances anymore. It makes much more sense to just draft another quarterback. They didn't make as much sense in 1983 because the rules were completely different.
It doesn't even make sense to go as far as the Giants have with Jones. They've put themselves in a position where he almost certainly walks for nothing. The better way to handle it would have been to cut bait after his terrible second year.
That's a lesson to remember when they draft the next guy. If we draft Bryce Young or whomever and he doesn't look great after year two it's time to think about moving him and drafting someone else. There is no sound reason to chase a lost cause.
Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.
I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.
I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Because it doesn't make sense to give a guy that many chances anymore. It makes much more sense to just draft another quarterback. They didn't make as much sense in 1983 because the rules were completely different.
It doesn't even make sense to go as far as the Giants have with Jones. They've put themselves in a position where he almost certainly walks for nothing. The better way to handle it would have been to cut bait after his terrible second year.
That's a lesson to remember when they draft the next guy. If we draft Bryce Young or whomever and he doesn't look great after year two it's time to think about moving him and drafting someone else. There is no sound reason to chase a lost cause.
Exactly. And Eli signed what at 7/$49MM rookie deal? Does anyone think DJ would take $7MM a year to stay the QB for years 5, 6, and 7? I'm pretty sure that's what TT got
Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.
I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.
I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
PAt Shurmur was a desperate moron and a bad NFL head coach. Who really cares?
Shurmur was desperate to draft potential playmakers who had potential to win some games here and now. He had little to know regard for building a team for the long run.
That is why he drafted Barkley instead of Darnold. And that is why he drafted Jones and wanted to bench Eli. He saw other QBs "doing heroic things" and thought ELi who hated running ; would go down from a jersey pull etc. should be benched in favor of someone who uses his head as a battering ram and doesn't bother sliding after a QB draw play.
The only problem is he was probably just as big as some of the linebackers when he was playing Wake Forrest so in Shurm heads view this could work in the NFL. We've quickly discovered that NFL linebackers are bigger than the ones Jones faced in college and the strategy didn't quite work.
Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.
I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.
I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
Rank the order of incompetent steps by our former genius of a GM:
*Assessing in early 2018 that Eli could still start/win
*Not properly evaluating available QBs in 2018 draft
*Bypassing all QBs and trade down opportunities to pick a RB overall #2
*Keeping Eli and his salary in place once again in 2019
*Keeping Eli in place and still drafting Jones in Rd 1
*Being duped to draft Jones earlier at #6 instead of #17
*Benching Eli after 2 games for Jones
*Overlooking that Eli and Jones actually need decent OL, WRs and TEs around them to function
*Not putting some valid competition at QB for Jones in 2020 or 2021
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
Holy shit, how did Jones end up in the discussion?
You think you can have a hypothetical conversation about drafting a different QB and not have the current QB, who was drafted one year after the QB who is being discussed in the hypothetical scenario, come up in conversation?
Does that seem reasonable in your tiny little brain?
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
Even dumber shit is thinking that the QB chosen by the same GM who built that dumpster fire isn't part of the dumpster fire.
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
You use Jeff George as a comp while suggesting other posters are usually wrong?
That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
Jeff George was also basically a semi-statue back there
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
Even dumber shit is thinking that the QB chosen by the same GM who built that dumpster fire isn't part of the dumpster fire.
That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
We're simple minded because you made an embarrassingly bad comparison and everyone laughed at you?
That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
And some of us believe Jones is part of all that, not an exception from it
Jones is actually this good QB or at the very least we don’t know because of the roster
So a 70 million dollar Golladay who doesn’t catch one TD all season. All season! You have a relatively high draft pick WR that doesn’t catch one TD all season!
This has nothing to do with the qb who he easily the worst starter in the league . Nothing whatsoever
Jones is actually this good QB or at the very least we don’t know because of the roster
So a 70 million dollar Golladay who doesn’t catch one TD all season. All season! You have a relatively high draft pick WR that doesn’t catch one TD all season!
This has nothing to do with the qb who he easily the worst starter in the league . Nothing whatsoever
Even the biggest DJ optimist would have to admit that the absolute best case scenario for him this year is peak Kirk Cousins. And if that happens they franchise him and are stuck in QB purgatory. I like the guy but some people have convinced themselves that Daboll is going to turn him into Josh Allen
That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
Yeah we forgot. Us simpletons have been telling posters like you that very point for years, but you never really got it.
The Jeff George comparison is just another example...
Jones is actually this good QB or at the very least we don’t know because of the roster
So a 70 million dollar Golladay who doesn’t catch one TD all season. All season! You have a relatively high draft pick WR that doesn’t catch one TD all season!
This has nothing to do with the qb who he easily the worst starter in the league . Nothing whatsoever
(1) Daniel Jones is not the worst starter in the league. Bottom 10 yes, but not the worst.
(2) KG is not free from blame as there were plenty of times where he gave half-assed attempts at playing the ball. Toney had a 3rd Round grade by Sy and could not stay healthy. Many of the BBI faithful wanted Elijah Moore if we went for a WR.
1. We don't build around Eli.
2. We don't sign Solder but stick with Flowers for a year more.
3. We trade down somehow and if not we draft QB Josh Allen
Eli starts and struggles, of course, and perhaps we do worse by a game and have an earlier pick in 2019...
Point is we no know Josh Allen would have been best and building around Eli (try to win while rebuilding) was a bad ownership idea. Good intentions but terrible results.
1. We don't build around Eli.
2. We don't sign Solder but stick with Flowers for a year more.
3. We trade down somehow and if not we draft QB Josh Allen
Eli starts and struggles, of course, and perhaps we do worse by a game and have an earlier pick in 2019...
Point is we no know Josh Allen would have been best and building around Eli (try to win while rebuilding) was a bad ownership idea. Good intentions but terrible results.
we may not have known about Allen and what he would become in 2018, but many called out building around Eli as mistake in real time
1. We don't build around Eli.
2. We don't sign Solder but stick with Flowers for a year more.
3. We trade down somehow and if not we draft QB Josh Allen
Eli starts and struggles, of course, and perhaps we do worse by a game and have an earlier pick in 2019...
Point is we no know Josh Allen would have been best and building around Eli (try to win while rebuilding) was a bad ownership idea. Good intentions but terrible results.
we may not have known about Allen and what he would become in 2018, but many called out building around Eli as mistake in real time
Eli had the quick release and mind for the game but he could no longer sidestep the rush like he did 2012 and earlier.... truly a bad move based on MONEY and building on his legacy than football smarts.
DJ might not have been given the best tools to work with, but he's shown next to nothing that he's a franchise QB.
I don’t care about Daniel Jones. This thread should have nothing to do with Daniel Jones. This is about Josh Allen and how some think you can just cut and paste his Buffalo stats to the Giants and call it a day.
Josh Allen did not look good his first two years in the league, and that’s coming into a much better situation than the 2018 Giants.
Still developing but you could see clear consistent improvement in many parts of his game. He threw for 20 TDs, a 2 to 1 ratio on TDs to Ints, ran for a ton of yards and another 9 scores as well. He also had many 4th qtr comebacks and game winning drives leading his team to 10 wins and a playoff berth as noted in this thread earlier.
Josh Allen was progressively improving, and by year three was a bona fide MVP candidate.
His durability, arm, and legs would make all but maybe 3 or 4 teams immediately better at the position. Especially the Giants.
That Jeff George comment is filling up someone's Mt. Rushmore. I recall awesome gems like "don't sleep on the 2019 Giants," and Gettleman "systematically building a championship team."
... probably not likely because I think this team is still a ways off and we don't know what we have in the staff and scheme or OL yet.... but I will absolutely laugh my ass off at you phucqers if this team turns it around and Jones starts kicking ass. That will be hilarious... lol
... probably not likely because I think this team is still a ways off and we don't know what we have in the staff and scheme or OL yet.... but I will absolutely laugh my ass off at you phucqers if this team turns it around and Jones starts kicking ass. That will be hilarious... lol
So can we laugh at you now because Jones has been bad for three years?
I’ve shared this observation many times on BBI. I couldn’t stand Tom Coughlin. I didn’t like when he was hired. I thought he was phony and would never succeed. And I did everything in my power to be there and literally cried in the stands at his final game in January of 2016.
No one dislikes Daniel Jones. He’s just been really bad. No one will be upset if he has an improbable turn around.
For many of us — it doesn’t matter if it’s Daniel Jones or if it’s Donald Duck. There’s no personal attachment or favorite players. We just want the Giants to do well. And so far Daniel Jones hasn’t come close.
... probably not likely because I think this team is still a ways off and we don't know what we have in the staff and scheme or OL yet.... but I will absolutely laugh my ass off at you phucqers if this team turns it around and Jones starts kicking ass. That will be hilarious... lol
So can we laugh at you now because Jones has been bad for three years?
I’ve shared this observation many times on BBI. I couldn’t stand Tom Coughlin. I didn’t like when he was hired. I thought he was phony and would never succeed. And I did everything in my power to be there and literally cried in the stands at his final game in January of 2016.
No one dislikes Daniel Jones. He’s just been really bad. No one will be upset if he has an improbable turn around.
For many of us — it doesn’t matter if it’s Daniel Jones or if it’s Donald Duck. There’s no personal attachment or favorite players. We just want the Giants to do well. And so far Daniel Jones hasn’t come close.
There's nothing funny about watching the Giants these past few years. They've been an unwatchable disaster, and it's tough to understand why fans who supposedly care about wins and losses would lobby for any of the players that were a part of it.
There's nothing funny about watching the Giants these past few years. They've been an unwatchable disaster, and it's tough to understand why fans who supposedly care about wins and losses would lobby for any of the players that were a part of it.
I agree with it not being funny. To be fair, I don't lobby for anyone. He is the Giants QB. The best case scenario is for him to thrive and kick ass. If he doesn't we move on and I root for the next guy. But I want him to succeed and kick ass. Call me Crazy. What can I say.
I want Niko Lalos to become Lawrence Taylor. Why aren't you going around talking about how much you want that?
What we want as fans is distinct from what will happen in reality.
If we see a bus crash off a cliff into the ocean we want everyone inside to be ok. The reality is likely to be very different from that. We want Daniel Jones to lead this team to a title. The reality is he isn't any good.
What we want isn't interesting. We all want the same thing.
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Strawman. You might a couple idiots on the site that say flat out "Can't" Pointing to outliers as any kind of evidence is the weakest kind of support.
Nearly, all of us want a light turn on and the kid to be great. We think that is about as likely as the next Kurt Warner is bagging groceries at my local Albertson's.
Going into each year, my take on what I want the Giants to do is based on the odds I think it will succeed.
I don’t put any more value on something improbable happening. I want the Giants to do the most high odds things, no matter what.
I think it’s very low odds Jones ever competes for a championship.
Solid.
Agreed, a fair take. My only argument with you guys really only has ever been that I think he has shown better than you do. And that comes down to how successful I think any QB would have been in this same situation as it has unfolded for the Giants since 2019. Which is to say, I don't think anyone would have been successful. It's not a great example but at least Glennon playing for the Bears *looked* like a not completely uncapable backup. On the Giants he looked like he shouldn't even be on a football field. When Jones went out the tent completely folded. I have seen enough of Jones to think he has the tools in the right (or even just decent) system on a team that at least has a competitive roster. And I agree with people like Chris and Phil Simms that see that in him as well.
And again I don't know how many times I can say, if we move on... Sayonara. I'll root for the next guy up. But I still think there's enough there to succeed and as a fan, I am rooting for that to happen. Nothing more, nothing less.
Quote:
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Because, as I explained at length above, the takeaway of those historical examples is that those late bloomers are not only the exception, but even more importantly, the way that the cap/contract rules have changed means that those guys would have run out of chances much, much earlier.
You can't apply those past examples to the current/future, because there isn't any logical way to factor for salary cap and the extreme rise in veteran QB salaries.
Quote:
In comment 15728868 NINEster said:
Quote:
In comment 15728316 bw in dc said:
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everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.
But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.
What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.
Have you ever watched Daniel Jones in his long three years and been in awe of any play he has made? A play where you said, "JFC, this guy is a special talent and we're lucky to have him..."
I know I have said that about Allen, Mahomes and Herbert in any of their first two years. All QBs, btw, we could have and should have drafted.
I don't see Steve Young. I see John Elway, part II. Young did not have the arm Allen has.
Jones had a couple of "Wow" plays his first season.
for which team?
Quote:
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Because it doesn't make sense to give a guy that many chances anymore. It makes much more sense to just draft another quarterback. They didn't make as much sense in 1983 because the rules were completely different.
It doesn't even make sense to go as far as the Giants have with Jones. They've put themselves in a position where he almost certainly walks for nothing. The better way to handle it would have been to cut bait after his terrible second year.
That's a lesson to remember when they draft the next guy. If we draft Bryce Young or whomever and he doesn't look great after year two it's time to think about moving him and drafting someone else. There is no sound reason to chase a lost cause.
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.
I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.
I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
Quote:
In comment 15728922 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Because it doesn't make sense to give a guy that many chances anymore. It makes much more sense to just draft another quarterback. They didn't make as much sense in 1983 because the rules were completely different.
It doesn't even make sense to go as far as the Giants have with Jones. They've put themselves in a position where he almost certainly walks for nothing. The better way to handle it would have been to cut bait after his terrible second year.
That's a lesson to remember when they draft the next guy. If we draft Bryce Young or whomever and he doesn't look great after year two it's time to think about moving him and drafting someone else. There is no sound reason to chase a lost cause.
Exactly. And Eli signed what at 7/$49MM rookie deal? Does anyone think DJ would take $7MM a year to stay the QB for years 5, 6, and 7? I'm pretty sure that's what TT got
Quote:
Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.
I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.
I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
PAt Shurmur was a desperate moron and a bad NFL head coach. Who really cares?
Shurmur was desperate to draft potential playmakers who had potential to win some games here and now. He had little to know regard for building a team for the long run.
That is why he drafted Barkley instead of Darnold. And that is why he drafted Jones and wanted to bench Eli. He saw other QBs "doing heroic things" and thought ELi who hated running ; would go down from a jersey pull etc. should be benched in favor of someone who uses his head as a battering ram and doesn't bother sliding after a QB draw play.
The only problem is he was probably just as big as some of the linebackers when he was playing Wake Forrest so in Shurm heads view this could work in the NFL. We've quickly discovered that NFL linebackers are bigger than the ones Jones faced in college and the strategy didn't quite work.
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Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.
I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.
I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
Rank the order of incompetent steps by our former genius of a GM:
*Assessing in early 2018 that Eli could still start/win
*Not properly evaluating available QBs in 2018 draft
*Bypassing all QBs and trade down opportunities to pick a RB overall #2
*Keeping Eli and his salary in place once again in 2019
*Keeping Eli in place and still drafting Jones in Rd 1
*Being duped to draft Jones earlier at #6 instead of #17
*Benching Eli after 2 games for Jones
*Overlooking that Eli and Jones actually need decent OL, WRs and TEs around them to function
*Not putting some valid competition at QB for Jones in 2020 or 2021
just awful...
Let's play straight comparison: if Daniel Jones tears his ACL in the pre-season and misses the whole season do you want him back in 2023?
If he's on the roster in 2023, but is rehabbing and doesn't play, do you want him back in 2024?
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
You think you can have a hypothetical conversation about drafting a different QB and not have the current QB, who was drafted one year after the QB who is being discussed in the hypothetical scenario, come up in conversation?
Does that seem reasonable in your tiny little brain?
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If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
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In comment 15729717 WillVAB said:
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If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
Even dumber shit is thinking that the QB chosen by the same GM who built that dumpster fire isn't part of the dumpster fire.
You use Jeff George as a comp while suggesting other posters are usually wrong?
chucklehead to the end...
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
That's like about half a season for Josh Allen...
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In comment 15729806 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15729717 WillVAB said:
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If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
Even dumber shit is thinking that the QB chosen by the same GM who built that dumpster fire isn't part of the dumpster fire.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
We're simple minded because you made an embarrassingly bad comparison and everyone laughed at you?
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That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
And some of us believe Jones is part of all that, not an exception from it
So a 70 million dollar Golladay who doesn’t catch one TD all season. All season! You have a relatively high draft pick WR that doesn’t catch one TD all season!
This has nothing to do with the qb who he easily the worst starter in the league . Nothing whatsoever
So a 70 million dollar Golladay who doesn’t catch one TD all season. All season! You have a relatively high draft pick WR that doesn’t catch one TD all season!
This has nothing to do with the qb who he easily the worst starter in the league . Nothing whatsoever
Even the biggest DJ optimist would have to admit that the absolute best case scenario for him this year is peak Kirk Cousins. And if that happens they franchise him and are stuck in QB purgatory. I like the guy but some people have convinced themselves that Daboll is going to turn him into Josh Allen
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That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
Yeah we forgot. Us simpletons have been telling posters like you that very point for years, but you never really got it.
The Jeff George comparison is just another example...
So a 70 million dollar Golladay who doesn’t catch one TD all season. All season! You have a relatively high draft pick WR that doesn’t catch one TD all season!
This has nothing to do with the qb who he easily the worst starter in the league . Nothing whatsoever
(1) Daniel Jones is not the worst starter in the league. Bottom 10 yes, but not the worst.
(2) KG is not free from blame as there were plenty of times where he gave half-assed attempts at playing the ball. Toney had a 3rd Round grade by Sy and could not stay healthy. Many of the BBI faithful wanted Elijah Moore if we went for a WR.
2. We don't sign Solder but stick with Flowers for a year more.
3. We trade down somehow and if not we draft QB Josh Allen
Eli starts and struggles, of course, and perhaps we do worse by a game and have an earlier pick in 2019...
Point is we no know Josh Allen would have been best and building around Eli (try to win while rebuilding) was a bad ownership idea. Good intentions but terrible results.
2. We don't sign Solder but stick with Flowers for a year more.
3. We trade down somehow and if not we draft QB Josh Allen
Eli starts and struggles, of course, and perhaps we do worse by a game and have an earlier pick in 2019...
Point is we no know Josh Allen would have been best and building around Eli (try to win while rebuilding) was a bad ownership idea. Good intentions but terrible results.
we may not have known about Allen and what he would become in 2018, but many called out building around Eli as mistake in real time
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1. We don't build around Eli.
2. We don't sign Solder but stick with Flowers for a year more.
3. We trade down somehow and if not we draft QB Josh Allen
Eli starts and struggles, of course, and perhaps we do worse by a game and have an earlier pick in 2019...
Point is we no know Josh Allen would have been best and building around Eli (try to win while rebuilding) was a bad ownership idea. Good intentions but terrible results.
we may not have known about Allen and what he would become in 2018, but many called out building around Eli as mistake in real time
I don’t care about Daniel Jones. This thread should have nothing to do with Daniel Jones. This is about Josh Allen and how some think you can just cut and paste his Buffalo stats to the Giants and call it a day.
Josh Allen did not look good his first two years in the league, and that’s coming into a much better situation than the 2018 Giants.
But of course he’s no Jeff George...
His durability, arm, and legs would make all but maybe 3 or 4 teams immediately better at the position. Especially the Giants.
That Jeff George comment is filling up someone's Mt. Rushmore. I recall awesome gems like "don't sleep on the 2019 Giants," and Gettleman "systematically building a championship team."
If the Giants do well, I bet the fans who were skeptical will be happy. That seems like a more healthy outcome.
So can we laugh at you now because Jones has been bad for three years?
No one dislikes Daniel Jones. He’s just been really bad. No one will be upset if he has an improbable turn around.
For many of us — it doesn’t matter if it’s Daniel Jones or if it’s Donald Duck. There’s no personal attachment or favorite players. We just want the Giants to do well. And so far Daniel Jones hasn’t come close.
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... probably not likely because I think this team is still a ways off and we don't know what we have in the staff and scheme or OL yet.... but I will absolutely laugh my ass off at you phucqers if this team turns it around and Jones starts kicking ass. That will be hilarious... lol
So can we laugh at you now because Jones has been bad for three years?
Ha, I'm sure you already do.
No one dislikes Daniel Jones. He’s just been really bad. No one will be upset if he has an improbable turn around.
For many of us — it doesn’t matter if it’s Daniel Jones or if it’s Donald Duck. There’s no personal attachment or favorite players. We just want the Giants to do well. And so far Daniel Jones hasn’t come close.
That's a fair take, Christian.
There was a guy on here that did something like that before...
I don’t put any more value on something improbable happening. I want the Giants to do the most high odds things, no matter what.
I think it’s very low odds Jones ever competes for a championship.
I agree with it not being funny. To be fair, I don't lobby for anyone. He is the Giants QB. The best case scenario is for him to thrive and kick ass. If he doesn't we move on and I root for the next guy. But I want him to succeed and kick ass. Call me Crazy. What can I say.
What we want as fans is distinct from what will happen in reality.
If we see a bus crash off a cliff into the ocean we want everyone inside to be ok. The reality is likely to be very different from that. We want Daniel Jones to lead this team to a title. The reality is he isn't any good.
What we want isn't interesting. We all want the same thing.
I don’t put any more value on something improbable happening. I want the Giants to do the most high odds things, no matter what.
I think it’s very low odds Jones ever competes for a championship.
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The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Nearly, all of us want a light turn on and the kid to be great. We think that is about as likely as the next Kurt Warner is bagging groceries at my local Albertson's.
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Going into each year, my take on what I want the Giants to do is based on the odds I think it will succeed.
I don’t put any more value on something improbable happening. I want the Giants to do the most high odds things, no matter what.
I think it’s very low odds Jones ever competes for a championship.
Solid.
Agreed, a fair take. My only argument with you guys really only has ever been that I think he has shown better than you do. And that comes down to how successful I think any QB would have been in this same situation as it has unfolded for the Giants since 2019. Which is to say, I don't think anyone would have been successful. It's not a great example but at least Glennon playing for the Bears *looked* like a not completely uncapable backup. On the Giants he looked like he shouldn't even be on a football field. When Jones went out the tent completely folded. I have seen enough of Jones to think he has the tools in the right (or even just decent) system on a team that at least has a competitive roster. And I agree with people like Chris and Phil Simms that see that in him as well.
And again I don't know how many times I can say, if we move on... Sayonara. I'll root for the next guy up. But I still think there's enough there to succeed and as a fan, I am rooting for that to happen. Nothing more, nothing less.