Had this debate with a friend at work today. I think the ineptitude of the coaching staff and GM at that time would have ruined his career. He felt that Allen would have become a star on the Giants as well.
but I think he would be substantially behind where he is now if he had the Giants' coaches developing him, as well as the Giants' OL and receiving corps
With you! He would be Exactly what Daniel Jones is. Because he was very close to that when he started his NFL career. But he wouldn’t have had an O-Line or any of the coaches that helped in his development. Nobody calling creative offensive plays to build momentum. No top ten defense getting his offense back on the field…
With you! He would be Exactly what Daniel Jones is. Because he was very close to that when he started his NFL career. But he wouldn’t have had an O-Line or any of the coaches that helped in his development. Nobody calling creative offensive plays to build momentum. No top ten defense getting his offense back on the field…
...than replacing Barkley with Allen in the 2018 draft. You're talking about a completely different approach to building the post-Reese offense. No "Last Dance with Eli" tour. Probably no Solder, Omameh, Stewart, Tate, etc. Not sure Beckham or Shepard gets re-signed. Manning gets released in March 2019 to make way for Allen.
Better? Worse? No clue. But very different.
Football is a team sport......very curious what tips the scale
Allen was far from a finished product. He needed to be coached up big time to unlock his talent fully.
I can’t imagine he’d be at the level he is now with the past coaching staffs, front office, roster, etc
Even with the better coaching staff I remember many of my friends (grew up in Rochester so surrounded by Bills fans) being very concerned about Allen heading into his third season.
At that point he had flashed the arm strength, but his completion % was not great and he was taking some big hits which led to at least one concussion.
Just to be clear, this is not a Jones/Allen comparison thread.
I agree, for all his faults Pat Shurmur was very good with quarterbacks and I believe that Allen would still develop into a star QB here although he would have had a far more difficult time with the lack of talent around him.
But coming out of school, he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. His accuracy was awful. That's why he didn't go higher than he did. He was widely considered a boom or bust "project."
Jones was actually more accurate coming out of college, and had a BETTER 1st year in the NFL than Allen's. Allen didn't really start clicking till season 3.
This is classic nature vs nurture to me, and Allen had the advantage of both. They cleaned up his mechanics which improved his accuracy. They protected him WAY better than the Giants have DJ, and being with the same coach and offense for a while has provided him with stability that helped his progress.
Conversely, as Mara so eloquently put it, the Giants have done everything they could to screw up Daniel Jones.
I think had Jones gone to Buffalo and played under the circumstances Allen has enjoyed, Jones' ceiling isn't as high as Allen's but I think his career would have been markedly better, and further along than it has been thus far. And I think if the Giants had done everything they could to screw up Josh Allen I don't think Allen would have done much better than Jones has under the same circumstances.
I think the Giants would have ruined him... although he likely would have looked decent in year 1 with Shurmur. If Shurmur stuck around I think he would have been OK. Impossible to say though, and impossible to know why or how he improved so consistently (was it him or the coaching? - likely a combo of both). He landed in the right spot I think. Even in Buffalo he wasn't great right away, but he certainly showed flashes of brilliance and improved every year really breaking out in year 3.
Buffalo's Josh Allen would very possibly be out of the league now, maybe playing in the USFL or even less, if the GIANTS had drafted him and handed him to the absolutely terrible coaching staffs that they have had since Mara fired Coughlin.
Buffalo's Josh Allen would very possibly be out of the league now, maybe playing in the USFL or even less, if the GIANTS had drafted him and handed him to the absolutely terrible coaching staffs that they have had since Mara fired Coughlin.
Did you write this with a straight face?
Allen is a natural playmaker who can make chicken salad. If you can't see it, well, you can't see. That's why I linked the video where Allen is making every play on his own.
Now, I'm not suggesting we'd be knocking on the door of the SB, like the Bills have been doing the last two years, but we'd have a helluva lot better record than 12-25 since Jones arrived. And Allen would be the BEST QB in the NFCE.
Buffalo's Josh Allen would very possibly be out of the league now, maybe playing in the USFL or even less, if the GIANTS had drafted him and handed him to the absolutely terrible coaching staffs that they have had since Mara fired Coughlin.
Did you write this with a straight face?
Allen is a natural playmaker who can make chicken salad. If you can't see it, well, you can't see. That's why I linked the video where Allen is making every play on his own.
Now, I'm not suggesting we'd be knocking on the door of the SB, like the Bills have been doing the last two years, but we'd have a helluva lot better record than 12-25 since Jones arrived. And Allen would be the BEST QB in the NFCE.
You can't teach that talent. It's that simple.
I think they would have a better record than they have had with Jones, but I don’t think Allen would be the star that he is at the moment. I also think there is a high likelihood that he would have missed a lot of games behind the line that this team trotted out there the past several seasons.
Bottom line is QB is the most important position in football. No question about that. However, football is called the ultimate team game for a reason. I don’t think any QB in the NFL would have made the Giants a playoff contender in any of their recent seasons. Mahomes, Allen, Brady, Rodgers, Herbert. The most wins the Giants would have had the last few seasons with any of those QB’s (assuming they survived to play 17 games) is 8 or 9.
Now that teams have all the tape on Allen they need
He completed 56% of his passes in college. He completed 55.8% and he had 47 total TDs with 21 INTs & 22 fumbles in his first 2 years for a far superior team. His numbers most likely would've been worse with the Giants.
They definitely wouldn't have gotten better like they did in Buffalo especially after the Giants hired Joe Judge & Jason Garrett.
His receivers there couldn't get open and couldn't catch. I said so at the time. In the limited film there was available during that draft season, you could see that his accuracy was much better than the numbers suggested.
He made throws that most NFL QBs can't make, and accurately.
Did the receiver always catch it? No, not even close.
People really fell into the trap that he was this inaccurate QB when that really wasn't the case.
Adjusting to the NFL was always going to be a challenge for him bc he played at Wyoming FGS.
You can tell the people that watch film vs just read stats.
I think he would have looked like a really good QB but he also really took off when the Bills put more talent around him.
It is a team game and the Bills have a very good overall team that supports one another. They have had a top 5 D. Coaching has been pretty good on both sides.
So while things may have looked better on the Giants hard to say how much impact it would have on W/L's imv.
People still put too much on the QB. History has consistently shown how important talent around a QB is. Giants just have not had enough couple with health issues.
because the team around him would have been absolute dogshit, BBI would have reacted two ways:
1. Get more talent around him because the team stinks.
2. The certain handful would be clamoring to find a new QB because once you stink, you always stink - and would be touting to take Daniel Jones with the 7th pick in the 2019 draft.
Could have had Tom Brady too. This board wanted Josh Rosen. This board wanted Dwayne Haskins. Josh Allen would have been an unpopular pick with this board at that time.
Took immense strides when he worked intensively with Daboll and Co. and the Bills gave up a good amount for Diggs. He would not have had that as a Giant. His rookie year when he did not have that was substantially worse than Jones (outside of fumbling less). I think someone like Shurmur could have worked with him and would have been given a longer leash because Eli would have been gone. My concern though is getting the talent around him because Josh Allen was really the only logical pick at 6 in 2019 Draft if you were not going with Daniel Jones. That would not have provided the OL help we needed nor a skill position guy with Beckham gone. The OL taken in Round 1 of 2019 Draft have all busted.
Could have had Tom Brady too. This board wanted Josh Rosen. This board wanted Dwayne Haskins. Josh Allen would have been an unpopular pick with this board at that time.
Right, because we all agree on every topic.
chucklehead...
RE: Allen had better physical tools and the cannon arm
But coming out of school, he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. His accuracy was awful. That's why he didn't go higher than he did. He was widely considered a boom or bust "project."
Jones was actually more accurate coming out of college, and had a BETTER 1st year in the NFL than Allen's. Allen didn't really start clicking till season 3.
This is classic nature vs nurture to me, and Allen had the advantage of both. They cleaned up his mechanics which improved his accuracy. They protected him WAY better than the Giants have DJ, and being with the same coach and offense for a while has provided him with stability that helped his progress.
Conversely, as Mara so eloquently put it, the Giants have done everything they could to screw up Daniel Jones.
I think had Jones gone to Buffalo and played under the circumstances Allen has enjoyed, Jones' ceiling isn't as high as Allen's but I think his career would have been markedly better, and further along than it has been thus far. And I think if the Giants had done everything they could to screw up Josh Allen I don't think Allen would have done much better than Jones has under the same circumstances.
Silly take and flat out not so to anyone who bothered to watch 30 seconds of his highlights. In an earlier age before all the "analytics" and dopey "studies" about college completion percentage, Allen would have been the first pick in the entire draft like the second coming of Terry Bradshaw that he was.
We screwed up and are paying the wages of sin. Instead of punting qb for one season to enter the qb bonanza and have a stud like Allen fall in our lap, we threw the 6 pick away on a guy whose ceiling was "starter".
Nobody can tell for certainty, but personally I think we'd currently be in the discussion as a darkhorse SB contender. Instead, most pundits are thinking we are looking at another double digit losing season and are a sure thing to be QB hunting next spring.
The Earth would have stopped rotating on its axis...
And it would have meant the end of all life as we know it. Five million years later, an alien species would discover this giant rock floating in space and conclude that it was inconsequential and not worth exploring further.
are now. Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him. he has had a much better supporting cast and coaches surrounding him. And he's had the benefit of much better ownership and admin to get better draft picks and FA's
RE: I think it's naive to think the Giants would be better off than they
are now. Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him. he has had a much better supporting cast and coaches surrounding him. And he's had the benefit of much better ownership and admin to get better draft picks and FA's
Huh?
"Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him."
RE: I think it's naive to think the Giants would be better off than they
are now. Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him. he has had a much better supporting cast and coaches surrounding him. And he's had the benefit of much better ownership and admin to get better draft picks and FA's
Did you watch any Buffalo games last year or the playoff game versus KC?
He is a prime example of a QB that elevates the team around him...
The rationalization of Jones's mediocrity knows no bounds
are now. Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him. he has had a much better supporting cast and coaches surrounding him. And he's had the benefit of much better ownership and admin to get better draft picks and FA's
Did you watch any Buffalo games last year or the playoff game versus KC?
He is a prime example of a QB that elevates the team around him...
I agree. I actually think he may surpass Mahomes this year. Allen's legs are a bit better than Mahomes and Allen has really gotten better every year.
Now the question no one can answers is - does Josh Allen become the same player he is now with a dogshit roster, poor coaching, and piss poor management. he obviously is better than Jones by a wide margin, but we dont know if he reaches his peak here either.
Trying to be objective, I think we would have gotten something in between what Allen is now and what Jones is. Allen is more talented, but had issues requiring a lot of coaching. The Bills did an excellent job with him. I do not have confidence that our coaching staffs and GM would have afforded him the same advantages. So, while I don't think he would be Daniel Jones, I also don't think he would be near the top of the league, as he is now.
A more interesting question is what Jones would be if the Bills drafted him and as a result where Schoen and Daboll would be right now as a result. Again, I think Jones would be better than he has shown on the Giants, but not a star.
RE: Allen had better physical tools and the cannon arm
But coming out of school, he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. His accuracy was awful. That's why he didn't go higher than he did. He was widely considered a boom or bust "project."
Jones was actually more accurate coming out of college, and had a BETTER 1st year in the NFL than Allen's. Allen didn't really start clicking till season 3.
This is classic nature vs nurture to me, and Allen had the advantage of both. They cleaned up his mechanics which improved his accuracy. They protected him WAY better than the Giants have DJ, and being with the same coach and offense for a while has provided him with stability that helped his progress.
Conversely, as Mara so eloquently put it, the Giants have done everything they could to screw up Daniel Jones.
I think had Jones gone to Buffalo and played under the circumstances Allen has enjoyed, Jones' ceiling isn't as high as Allen's but I think his career would have been markedly better, and further along than it has been thus far. And I think if the Giants had done everything they could to screw up Josh Allen I don't think Allen would have done much better than Jones has under the same circumstances.
BS. Eli didn't suck here. He certainly didn't throw only 11 TDs. He certianly didn't have all these great coaches (post Coughlin). All he had was immature, albeit talented, WR who probably did more harm than good while here as a teammate.
Even I saw that. I watched him in college and so obvious he was a star already.
Disagree that Josh Allen was already a star in college. He was great against MWC competition, but when faced with better opponents he struggled. The questions about Allen's floor prior to the draft were legit and that was compounded by the fact that he did take a step back in his draft year when much of his OL/skill guys graduated. There was some concern that he would only be as good as the talent he had around him. His rookie year did nothing to alleviate those concerns if you are comfortable with sub 53% completion percentage, more INT than TD's, and 5.4 AY/A. In 10 out of 16 games in his rookie year, Buffalo's offense had less than 20 points. Every win they had was when the Defense held their opponents to 21 points or fewer. Buffalo was 5-2 in those games.
He had the size, athletic ability and arm talent. He excelled in three sports in high school. He weighed 180 lbs. If you looked closely enough he had the QB intelligence. What he did not have was the development that some of the top QB's had coming out of high school. Mechanically he needed work.
One of the big reasons I liked him was his journey. No college recruited him out of high school. He went the JC route to Wyoming. This tells you a lot of who he is imv.
Josh Allen averaged a total of less than 200 yards per game Passing AND rushing.
If people think that is "star" material, you never saw him play. His game against Iowa was much hyped and he absolutely was wretched.
Now kudos to him for working hard and becoming the player he is. But there were justifiably huge question marks about him. You dont complete 55% of your passes as a starter and not have question marks.
Yeah, I'm not sure where the "star" classification is coming from
As with all the big names at QB in that draft, Allen came with a lot of questions. Based on the issues he had, I still wouldn't have drafted him back then (without hindsight, obviously) and I doubt the Giants version of him, if we did, would be as good as the current Bills version of him.
Let's not forget, it wasn't until year 3 that he became a very good QB. This staff has 1 year to have a similar impact on Jones, because in my opinion, unless he comes out of 2022 looking like the current version of Allen, I wouldn't re-sign him.
like with Jones, pretending its 2012 rather than 2022 to recreate him in the halycon memories of Eli Manning making pre-snap reads and adjustments and motions and calling out the mike and hot reads and audibles and fake audibles dropping back and sitting in the pocket for 6 seconds making two sides of the field 5 receiver progression reads.
Josh Allen averaged a total of less than 200 yards per game Passing AND rushing.
If people think that is "star" material, you never saw him play. His game against Iowa was much hyped and he absolutely was wretched.
Now kudos to him for working hard and becoming the player he is. But there were justifiably huge question marks about him. You dont complete 55% of your passes as a starter and not have question marks.
Short sighted looking at his passing stats. The HC at Wyoming came from NDSU where they were winning championships. He has not been able to replicate that success. Before Allen they won 2 games. With him they won 8 games both years he started.
To give a better reference point on the stats look at the rushing yards of the team. 34 carries per game for 108 yards. 3.2/attempt. That is a bad offensive team in college.
Often the stats some focus on don't tell the true story.
Josh Allen averaged a total of less than 200 yards per game Passing AND rushing.
If people think that is "star" material, you never saw him play. His game against Iowa was much hyped and he absolutely was wretched.
Now kudos to him for working hard and becoming the player he is. But there were justifiably huge question marks about him. You dont complete 55% of your passes as a starter and not have question marks.
Short sighted looking at his passing stats. The HC at Wyoming came from NDSU where they were winning championships. He has not been able to replicate that success. Before Allen they won 2 games. With him they won 8 games both years he started.
To give a better reference point on the stats look at the rushing yards of the team. 34 carries per game for 108 yards. 3.2/attempt. That is a bad offensive team in college.
Often the stats some focus on don't tell the true story.
So what did Allen do that made him a star? Hand the ball off like you suggested?
I understand Allen didn’t play with great players. But again, name me all the “stars” in college football that averaged less than 200 yards passing and rushing. He accounted for less than 2 TDs a game.
He wasn’t a star. He did have star potential though. Which I noted.
knew all along we should have drafted the obvious superstar while pundits like Cossell and Mike Leach outright say you don't get more accurate.
Hell even after four years Allen is still a bit of an enigma to me as he most of the time throws off balance and throws to wide open receivers on extended plays. He certainly did not develop Aaron Rogers accuracy (who had it plainly in college) or Eli throwing it into a proverbial bucket to Manningham moving down the sideline at 20 mphs covered by two defenders.
I guess Elway had a similar game to Allen.
Allen had several plus traits, good frame and a monster arm which
put him somewhere in the top of that draft class. But we discussed it a good bit...questions about accuracy and competition were the items that caused him not to be the #1 or #2 QB on the ranking list.
But he had huge potential and kudos to him to turning himself into a great pro.
He is exactly what you want in a QB in today's NFL...
RE: I think it's naive to think the Giants would be better off than they
are now. Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him. he has had a much better supporting cast and coaches surrounding him. And he's had the benefit of much better ownership and admin to get better draft picks and FA's
Let's see. Allen is a bigger, stronger, faster athlete than Jones. He has exponentially better arm talent and clearly has the skill sets to make off-script play at the highest level. Do you understand that part?
So, when a play breaks down, Allen can still keep a play alive and make winning plays. In contrast, when a play breaks down for Jones, he typically breaks down to. I really suggest you watch that link I provided in an earlier post. It shows Allen making plays with his legs when the play goes off-script. It's a remarkable skill.
I don't know how anyone can watch Allen and not see he is blessed with innate skills to play the position. Jones, on the other hand, is not a natural QB at all and plays the position in a very robotic fashion.
If Schoen/Daboll felt remotely similarly about Jones they would have picked up his 5th year option.
RE: Allen had several plus traits, good frame and a monster arm which
put him somewhere in the top of that draft class. But we discussed it a good bit...questions about accuracy and competition were the items that caused him not to be the #1 or #2 QB on the ranking list.
But he had huge potential and kudos to him to turning himself into a great pro.
He is exactly what you want in a QB in today's NFL...
Exactly. It wasnt like he was putting up 4000 total yard seasons with 35-40 TDs at Wyoming. He didnt even crack 20 total TDs. And was very inaccurate.
But the traits were drool worthy. 6'5 - 240 and ran like a 4.6 I think. It took him until 3 year to be a mega star. Kudo to him. He is an absolute treat to watch.
knew all along we should have drafted the obvious superstar while pundits like Cossell and Mike Leach outright say you don't get more accurate.
Hell even after four years Allen is still a bit of an enigma to me as he most of the time throws off balance and throws to wide open receivers on extended plays. He certainly did not develop Aaron Rogers accuracy (who had it plainly in college) or Eli throwing it into a proverbial bucket to Manningham moving down the sideline at 20 mphs covered by two defenders.
I guess Elway had a similar game to Allen.
There is some truth to those words on accuracy. However as I noted he was a three sport high school player. Never attended the camps. Now if he had the benefit of having committed to football at a early age the results would have been different. The Bills correctly identified it was correctable.
Elway is a good comparison. His upbringing in the game was far more advanced in terms of coaching. Allen is also only 26 so you have a lot of upside. The bigger issue might be the Bills keep a good enough team around him.
As with all the big names at QB in that draft, Allen came with a lot of questions. Based on the issues he had, I still wouldn't have drafted him back then (without hindsight, obviously) and I doubt the Giants version of him, if we did, would be as good as the current Bills version of him.
Let's not forget, it wasn't until year 3 that he became a very good QB. This staff has 1 year to have a similar impact on Jones, because in my opinion, unless he comes out of 2022 looking like the current version of Allen, I wouldn't re-sign him.
This is not true. In Allen's second year he had a 20TD/9INT, which is very solid, and had 500+ yards rushing with another 9 rushing TDs. And that was after running for 8 TDs his rookie year (with 600+ yards rushing) in only 11 games.
Further, he led the league in game winning drives and 4th quarter comebacks.
So, by year two, the signs were clearly there that this was a player on the rise...
knew all along we should have drafted the obvious superstar while pundits like Cossell and Mike Leach outright say you don't get more accurate.
Hell even after four years Allen is still a bit of an enigma to me as he most of the time throws off balance and throws to wide open receivers on extended plays. He certainly did not develop Aaron Rogers accuracy (who had it plainly in college) or Eli throwing it into a proverbial bucket to Manningham moving down the sideline at 20 mphs covered by two defenders.
As with all the big names at QB in that draft, Allen came with a lot of questions. Based on the issues he had, I still wouldn't have drafted him back then (without hindsight, obviously) and I doubt the Giants version of him, if we did, would be as good as the current Bills version of him.
Let's not forget, it wasn't until year 3 that he became a very good QB. This staff has 1 year to have a similar impact on Jones, because in my opinion, unless he comes out of 2022 looking like the current version of Allen, I wouldn't re-sign him.
This is not true. In Allen's second year he had a 20TD/9INT, which is very solid, and had 500+ yards rushing with another 9 rushing TDs. And that was after running for 8 TDs his rookie year (with 600+ yards rushing) in only 11 games.
Further, he led the league in game winning drives and 4th quarter comebacks.
So, by year two, the signs were clearly there that this was a player on the rise...
I'm sure Jones would be doing this all the time in Buffalo.
The talent gap between Allen and Jones is not so small that they could be flipped without noticing a difference in team performance. Allen is a supreme talent. Jones is not. The selling point on Jones was that he was entering the NFL a polished finished product. Turns out he's Blaine Gabbert.
If he was "a star in college" and had already put it all together
He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
He's a STAR now, clearly, but don't try and sell me he was a star in college or in his first two seasons in the NFL. That shit just won't fly.
Like Mahomes, he had raw talent, and he had shown flashes of what he MIGHT become in a best-case scenario (so did Jamarcus Russell and lot of other big-armed busts), but he was FAR from a sure thing as evidenced by where he (and Mahomes) were drafted, and it took 3 NFL seasons for it to click for him.
He's was a boom or bust prospect who happened to eventually BOOM. But it took the learning curve the scouts thought it would.
And you can bet that if he had had his first two Buffalo seasons as a Giant, the very guys on this board calling him a "transcendent talent" would have been calling for his head before he had his breakout.
I think Wyoming did run some sort of pro style ground and pound offense, which sounds absurd for a division 4 program or whatever the hell they were - almost as absurd as Herbert running a heavy screen offense. So a factor in Allen's shit stats, but still 55% is outright garbage.
And you can bet that if he had had his first two Buffalo seasons as a Giant, the very guys on this board calling him a "transcendent talent" would have been calling for his head before he had his breakout.
Allen put up 10 wins as a starter and led his team to playoffs in Year 2, with 4 fourth qtr comebacks and 5 game winning drives.
Anybody on BBI calling for his head back then would look like a moron...
I think the two issues were that he had some head scratching decision making and he played in the Air Raid offense which has produced a lot of pinball numbers for QB's over the years. They some of the QB's never panned out in the NFL.
His last year at TT.
12 games 388/491 66.7% 8.5 y/a 41 TD's 10 Int.
Do bad QBs become good QBs with good coaches, and good QBs turn out bad with bad coaches? Absolutely not.
If The Giants drafted Josh Allen in 2018 and the Bills drafted Daniel Jones in 2019, Josh Allen would still be a much better QB today than Jones. He is smarter and has much more physical talent.
Where they are today may be a little different, but to think that Josh Allen would have had his third "prove it" year last year with the Giants is silly.
whole lot of absolutes and black and white type declarations
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
The Giants drafted the most talented RB to come alone in ten years and he still couldn't resurrect a rushing attack, even at his best, in 2018, Barkley got his but the running game never really gained true traction that a truly great running game would gain. I wonder why?
Allen would be like Watson here without the happy endings and that includes all those sundays.
RE: whole lot of absolutes and black and white type declarations
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
The Giants drafted the most talented RB to come alone in ten years and he still couldn't resurrect a rushing attack, even at his best, in 2018, Barkley got his but the running game never really gained true traction that a truly great running game would gain. I wonder why?
Allen would be like Watson here without the happy endings and that includes all those sundays.
Regarding Barkley...
McL has created a ton of posts showing the underlying stats on why the NYG rushing game was so inefficient with him as a runner. Even in 2018.
I will link a thread so you can see and absolutely understand why that is...
He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
RE: whole lot of absolutes and black and white type declarations
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
What's the difference between you assuring that we wouldn't have won very much with Allen and others assuring that we would have many more games than with Jones?
He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
And what's amazing is that Jones was neither a star talent or super productive in college.
RE: RE: whole lot of absolutes and black and white type declarations
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
The Giants drafted the most talented RB to come alone in ten years and he still couldn't resurrect a rushing attack, even at his best, in 2018, Barkley got his but the running game never really gained true traction that a truly great running game would gain. I wonder why?
Allen would be like Watson here without the happy endings and that includes all those sundays.
Regarding Barkley...
McL has created a ton of posts showing the underlying stats on why the NYG rushing game was so inefficient with him as a runner. Even in 2018.
I will link a thread so you can see and absolutely understand why that is...
This thread has some McL posts that go thru running success rates. He had a ton of other ones that I recall as well on the same theme.
You may have missed them because they were usually in long drawn out "battle threads" where some of the loud mouth defenders of Getts/everything Giants would shout and ridicule anybody that suggested picking a RB so early in 2018 for this team was a mistake.
I wonder what the excuses will be when he's someone else's backup a year from now.
There won't be any excuses at that point. Most fans are pretty rational even if they like to take the wait and see approach.
What's your excuse for Alex Smith or to some extent, Tannehill? Tannehill did show some positive traits before going to Tenn, but most definitely evolved into a better more prolific QB the second he left Miami.
Alex Smith is the guy that no one can explain. You can underrate his career all you want, but there's no doubting he went from a perennial loser to a perennial winner after taking FAR too long to develop, like 6 years.
Lastly, Jones is in the last year of his contract. Sometimes it simply comes down to timing. The Giants didn't go out of their way to bring in Jones this year or keep jones this year. That kind of matters in this tired as fucking hell discussion. Jones WAS here and is still here because it makes little to sense to cut the guy NOW.
He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
And what's amazing is that Jones was neither a star talent or super productive in college.
comparisons to a by-gone era but Phil Simms virtually a complete unknown in College. He put up very very ordinary stats. HE also took SIX years to reach household name territory. The game was different sure, but it's still just football.
Some of you act like it's never happened. It has. That's why teams go down with the ship on so many occasions and again, Jones was here under contract--cutting him now would be the height of ridiculously dumb, even if some of you know more than the experts. Hint, you really don't.
He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
No, he was taken 7th because a team loved the raw potential of his size, athletic traits, and big arm especially in the cold weather conditions of Buffalo after Thanksgiving. Every team picking in the Top 7 needed a QB (even Tampa had taken Winston in 2015 but with 3-10 season in 2017 and INT rate I wouldn't say they were comfortable there) and all passed on Allen or traded down.
Allen WAS a great talent in college. That was the selling point: big guy with mobility and a huge arm but very rough around the edges. He was drafted on spec for his physical body type and throwing ability. He was not drafted for his college output.
The selling point on Jones was completely different: not a great physical talent or productive in college, but a refined product polished by the hands of the guy that gave us Eli - David Cutcliffe.
It turns out they got that completely wrong. Jones's mental speed wasn't there (as Sy warned all of us) and he has a difficult time reading defenses or existing in the pocket. That is EXACTLY how things have borne out. There is little reason to expect a big improvement because unlike Allen Jones isn't a rough diamond; there is no untapped reservoir of talent there.
The only people rewriting history are those making excuses for Jones.
Jones's story with NYG is heading towards the conclusion that has been logical from day one: failure. An untalented (0 star recruit) and unproductive (never made 3rd team All-ACC) college quarterback isn't likely to become a successful NFL quarterback.
Allen WAS a great talent in college. That was the selling point: big guy with mobility and a huge arm but very rough around the edges. He was drafted on spec for his physical body type and throwing ability. He was not drafted for his college output.
The selling point on Jones was completely different: not a great physical talent or productive in college, but a refined product polished by the hands of the guy that gave us Eli - David Cutcliffe.
It turns out they got that completely wrong. Jones's mental speed wasn't there (as Sy warned all of us) and he has a difficult time reading defenses or existing in the pocket. That is EXACTLY how things have borne out. There is little reason to expect a big improvement because unlike Allen Jones isn't a rough diamond; there is no untapped reservoir of talent there.
The only people rewriting history are those making excuses for Jones.
Jones's story with NYG is heading towards the conclusion that has been logical from day one: failure. An untalented (0 star recruit) and unproductive (never made 3rd team All-ACC) college quarterback isn't likely to become a successful NFL quarterback.
Allen was a 0 star recruit, and he started at a Junior College that his cousin got him into. Wyoming form the MWC was his only choice later at a four year school and he managed to make second team MWC one year. That's Mountain West Conference.
He was NEVER a great talent in college, let alone a star like bw would have everyone believe. He had a big friggin arm. He was a boom-bust talent that has boomed the last two years.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
No, he was taken 7th because a team loved the raw potential of his size, athletic traits, and big arm...
Right. All of those attributes are the talent parts I was referring to - "...star talent..."
It doesn't matter how many teams passed on him (gee, six). What matters is a smart organization like the Bills recognized Allen's incredible talent, traded up to draft him, and now are set at QB for another decade. And the inept organization we root for decided taking a fungible position player was the smarter move.
Allen WAS a great talent in college. That was the selling point: big guy with mobility and a huge arm but very rough around the edges. He was drafted on spec for his physical body type and throwing ability. He was not drafted for his college output.
The selling point on Jones was completely different: not a great physical talent or productive in college, but a refined product polished by the hands of the guy that gave us Eli - David Cutcliffe.
It turns out they got that completely wrong. Jones's mental speed wasn't there (as Sy warned all of us) and he has a difficult time reading defenses or existing in the pocket. That is EXACTLY how things have borne out. There is little reason to expect a big improvement because unlike Allen Jones isn't a rough diamond; there is no untapped reservoir of talent there.
The only people rewriting history are those making excuses for Jones.
Jones's story with NYG is heading towards the conclusion that has been logical from day one: failure. An untalented (0 star recruit) and unproductive (never made 3rd team All-ACC) college quarterback isn't likely to become a successful NFL quarterback.
Allen was a 0 star recruit, and he started at a Junior College that his cousin got him into. Wyoming form the MWC was his only choice later at a four year school and he managed to make second team MWC one year. That's Mountain West Conference.
He was NEVER a great talent in college, let alone a star like bw would have everyone believe. He had a big friggin arm. He was a boom-bust talent that has boomed the last two years.
I agree that Allen was boom-bust. Huge physical talent that maybe could play, maybe could not. But the huge physical talent was there. That was the appeal.
Now remove that huge physical talent from Allen and what do you have? Daniel Jones.
He was NEVER a great talent in college, let alone a star like bw would have everyone believe. He had a big friggin arm. He was a boom-bust talent that has boomed the last two years.
You do realize that Aaron Rodgers basically had zero D1 offers as well. I think he was offered an opportunity to walk on at Illinois. So Allen is not alone in not getting a D1 opportunity at first.
I said Allen was a star talent. And he absolutely was with the way he threw, moved, ran, and improvised.
Yes, Allen was absolutely high risk, high reward. And a smart team like the Bills thought the talent was absolutely worth the risk and will very likely win a SB because of that decision...
But, really, what player isn't a risk coming into the draft?
Before last season I charted the college passing stats of every first round QB since 2011, when the new CBA introduced the rookie wage scale and dramatically changed the way QBs fit into roster construction. I also added in non-first rounders that stuck and made a significant contribution (Russell Wilson, Jimmy Garropolo, etc.) and non-first rounders still in their rookie contracts with a chance to make a significant contribution (Lock, Minshew, etc.). The pool was 49 QBs...the data I could find on Garoppolo was limited and I couldn't track down his AY/A.
When sorted by their college AY/A (this was nearly identical to sorting them by passer rating) Josh Allen was low in the group (39th with 7.7 AY/A), but who was tied for the very worst AY/A with Jake Locker at 6.2?
Daniel Jones.
The signs were all there. The Giants ignored them. Now here we are at 14-35 since we drafted him. Thankfully it will all be over soon.
everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.
But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.
What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.
RE: RE: The rationalization of Jones's mediocrity knows no bounds
I wonder what the excuses will be when he's someone else's backup a year from now.
There won't be any excuses at that point. Most fans are pretty rational even if they like to take the wait and see approach.
What's your excuse for Alex Smith or to some extent, Tannehill? Tannehill did show some positive traits before going to Tenn, but most definitely evolved into a better more prolific QB the second he left Miami.
Alex Smith is the guy that no one can explain. You can underrate his career all you want, but there's no doubting he went from a perennial loser to a perennial winner after taking FAR too long to develop, like 6 years.
Alex Smith was an anomaly QB from the respect of how he needed to be spoon fed significantly before playing.
Had he gotten drafted by the Packers instead of the 49ers, he would've sat for a few seasons there and IMO been a clear franchise QB.
What they did for Patrick Mahomes, and what they've done for Trey Lance, he needed 50x more than either of those guys.
He was a first round physical talent that flashed in his second NFL season, but the dysfunction of the team and his shoulder injury put a physical and mental dent on him that more or less kept him from reaching his potential. He wasn't always a game manager, and had deep throwing ability at one point.
But his mental toughness is perhaps the toughest I've ever seen of an NFL QB. When people thought his career was over after that leg break in Washington, I knew a very good chance existed he would return to the NFL.
Lastly his intelligence was up there. He figured out a way to have a winning NFL career as a game manager, which in some ways is very very difficult to do.
Now take a look at the top and bottom 10 and look at their respective teams rushing yards and rypa
Understand that dynamic and you’ll understand offensive football better. You are also looking at elite WR’s at a lot of those top 10 which translates even more with those teams rushing ability.
RE: RE: RE: The rationalization of Jones's mediocrity knows no bounds
I wonder what the excuses will be when he's someone else's backup a year from now.
There won't be any excuses at that point. Most fans are pretty rational even if they like to take the wait and see approach.
What's your excuse for Alex Smith or to some extent, Tannehill? Tannehill did show some positive traits before going to Tenn, but most definitely evolved into a better more prolific QB the second he left Miami.
Alex Smith is the guy that no one can explain. You can underrate his career all you want, but there's no doubting he went from a perennial loser to a perennial winner after taking FAR too long to develop, like 6 years.
Alex Smith was an anomaly QB from the respect of how he needed to be spoon fed significantly before playing.
Had he gotten drafted by the Packers instead of the 49ers, he would've sat for a few seasons there and IMO been a clear franchise QB.
What they did for Patrick Mahomes, and what they've done for Trey Lance, he needed 50x more than either of those guys.
He was a first round physical talent that flashed in his second NFL season, but the dysfunction of the team and his shoulder injury put a physical and mental dent on him that more or less kept him from reaching his potential. He wasn't always a game manager, and had deep throwing ability at one point.
But his mental toughness is perhaps the toughest I've ever seen of an NFL QB. When people thought his career was over after that leg break in Washington, I knew a very good chance existed he would return to the NFL.
Lastly his intelligence was up there. He figured out a way to have a winning NFL career as a game manager, which in some ways is very very difficult to do.
Giants D was treating Smith like SF D was treating Eli in the playoff game. He was game too and hung in there.
Now take a look at the top and bottom 10 and look at their respective teams rushing yards and rypa
Understand that dynamic and you’ll understand offensive football better. You are also looking at elite WR’s at a lot of those top 10 which translates even more with those teams rushing ability.
If you're looking at rushing yards in this day and age I'm not sure you should be speaking like an authority on offensive football. That list is basically every college QB that mattered in the NFL in the past decade prior to this last draft. We drafted one of the very worst on that list sixth overall.
It's important to say this aloud: Daniel Jones has never put together a really good season of high level football. His best season AY/A in six years of college and pro ball is 6.9.
We drafted a bad, untalented player #6 overall. Hoping he'll become a good player is the same as hoping Niko Lalos will become a really NFL starting linebacker. It's not impossible, but the odds on it are very long.
I suggested what to look into regarding those stats. Tell all those HC’s of those in the top 10 how you feel about running the football. Then ask them how they apply to the stat you posted.
Perhaps they’ll take the time to explain offensive football if you don’t believe me.
I suggested what to look into regarding those stats. Tell all those HC’s of those in the top 10 how you feel about running the football. Then ask them how they apply to the stat you posted.
Perhaps they’ll take the time to explain offensive football if you don’t believe me.
I'm not going to do your research for you. Have at it.
Whether one wants to admit it or not. I hope the kid becomes a stud this fall, but the odds aren't great that that happens, to put it mildly. I doubt he's on the roster this time next season & we all move on.
I don't think he makes the leap he did if he was drafted here
I suggested what to look into regarding those stats. Tell all those HC’s of those in the top 10 how you feel about running the football. Then ask them how they apply to the stat you posted.
Perhaps they’ll take the time to explain offensive football if you don’t believe me.
I'm not going to do your research for you. Have at it.
I didn’t post a stupid post of stats to make a meaningless point. Tried to point you in a better direction. I understand the position and the variables around it.
Keep up the good work to trash Jones if it pleases you.
everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.
But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.
What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.
Have you ever watched Daniel Jones in his long three years and been in awe of any play he has made? A play where you said, "JFC, this guy is a special talent and we're lucky to have him..."
I know I have said that about Allen, Mahomes and Herbert in any of their first two years. All QBs, btw, we could have and should have drafted.
I don't see Steve Young. I see John Elway, part II. Young did not have the arm Allen has.
I don't recall a huge 'Draft Allen' contingent either. And I agree...I think he's probably a good QB if we take him, but not the guy he is in Buffalo. A lot of people don't want to admit it, but so much of success is dependent on where you end up. Is Patrick Mahomes this Patrick Mahomes if he is drafted by the Lions? I'd venture no. He ended up in a perfect situation in KC with a great offense & elite skill position players.
comparisons to a by-gone era but Phil Simms virtually a complete unknown in College. He put up very very ordinary stats. HE also took SIX years to reach household name territory. The game was different sure, but it's still just football.
Some of you act like it's never happened. It has. That's why teams go down with the ship on so many occasions and again, Jones was here under contract--cutting him now would be the height of ridiculously dumb, even if some of you know more than the experts. Hint, you really don't.
Where this falls flat isn't just in the way the game has evolved, it's in the way that the cap and rookie contract structure have changed the league's approach to young players - especially QBs, because of how expensive they become after their rookie contracts.
In the case of Simms, if he were playing now instead of 40 years ago, based on his first three years, the Giants would probably have picked up his 5th year option, but he would have then missed the entirety of his 4th season due to injury anyway.
Where it becomes interesting is whether Parcells would have felt compelled to play Simms in 1983 rather than benching him in favor of Brunner, since 1983 would have been his last opportunity to evaluate Simms before his contract expired (again, if we apply the current cap/contract framework). That would have meant 5+ games of evaluation instead of relief work in 2 games and a grand total of 13 passes in 1983.
For the sake of argument, let's just assume that Parcells would have handled his QB situation in exactly the same manner as he did back then if he was operating within the current cap/contract landscape. That means that Simms would have had his same first three years, then would have had his 5th year option picked up before his 4th year, only to miss his entire 4th season to injury, and most of his 5th season to injury.
Guess what would have happened next if the current cap/contract landscape existed then? Simms either signs a prove-it deal for 1984 as a FA, or walks. He only got the chance to restore his career in 1984 because the Giants effectively owned his rights pre-FA (and the compensatory penalty for signing FA at that time would have basically made Simms radioactive in 1984 coming off of two injury-plagued seasons).
And essentially, a prove-it contract is what Simms did get after his 5th year (albeit for much less, even comparatively speaking, than what a prove-it contract would look like for a QB in 2022): Simms made $275k in 1984 (reference here, under "How Much is Phil Simms Worth?"), which was about 40% higher than the league average salary for that period (reference here, under "The Big Money"). The average NFL salary for 2021 was $2.8M (reference here); if you want to tell me that DJ is going to re-sign for 40% above that ($3.9M) in 2023, then by all means, be patient. But he's not. He's going to cost multiples of that, even if he has another mediocre year in 2022.
I know you like to reference Simms every time this topic comes up, but that reference doesn't work, because the Giants would have either moved on from Simms after 1983 unless he took a cheap deal to restore his value, or would have at least commenced seeking his replacement even if he had. If Simms had played in the current system and would have commanded a significant pay increase in 1984, it's impossible to say that he ever would have ever even gotten a 6th season with the Giants, but it seems unlikely that he would have.
I don't recall a huge 'Draft Allen' contingent either. And I agree...I think he's probably a good QB if we take him, but not the guy he is in Buffalo. A lot of people don't want to admit it, but so much of success is dependent on where you end up. Is Patrick Mahomes this Patrick Mahomes if he is drafted by the Lions? I'd venture no. He ended up in a perfect situation in KC with a great offense & elite skill position players.
Absolutely correct. Much has to do with timing and luck in virtually any career situation.
everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.
But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.
What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.
Have you ever watched Daniel Jones in his long three years and been in awe of any play he has made? A play where you said, "JFC, this guy is a special talent and we're lucky to have him..."
I know I have said that about Allen, Mahomes and Herbert in any of their first two years. All QBs, btw, we could have and should have drafted.
I don't see Steve Young. I see John Elway, part II. Young did not have the arm Allen has.
Jones had a couple of "Wow" plays his first season.
I also was on record not wanting to draft Barkley.
That's the thing - there were many picks that would have been really good decisions. They made a horrible decision that was clearly horrible in real time.
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
You're allowed to conjure up whatever examples or anecdotes
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Because, as I explained at length above, the takeaway of those historical examples is that those late bloomers are not only the exception, but even more importantly, the way that the cap/contract rules have changed means that those guys would have run out of chances much, much earlier.
You can't apply those past examples to the current/future, because there isn't any logical way to factor for salary cap and the extreme rise in veteran QB salaries.
everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.
But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.
What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.
Have you ever watched Daniel Jones in his long three years and been in awe of any play he has made? A play where you said, "JFC, this guy is a special talent and we're lucky to have him..."
I know I have said that about Allen, Mahomes and Herbert in any of their first two years. All QBs, btw, we could have and should have drafted.
I don't see Steve Young. I see John Elway, part II. Young did not have the arm Allen has.
Jones had a couple of "Wow" plays his first season.
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Because it doesn't make sense to give a guy that many chances anymore. It makes much more sense to just draft another quarterback. They didn't make as much sense in 1983 because the rules were completely different.
It doesn't even make sense to go as far as the Giants have with Jones. They've put themselves in a position where he almost certainly walks for nothing. The better way to handle it would have been to cut bait after his terrible second year.
That's a lesson to remember when they draft the next guy. If we draft Bryce Young or whomever and he doesn't look great after year two it's time to think about moving him and drafting someone else. There is no sound reason to chase a lost cause.
Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.
I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.
I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Because it doesn't make sense to give a guy that many chances anymore. It makes much more sense to just draft another quarterback. They didn't make as much sense in 1983 because the rules were completely different.
It doesn't even make sense to go as far as the Giants have with Jones. They've put themselves in a position where he almost certainly walks for nothing. The better way to handle it would have been to cut bait after his terrible second year.
That's a lesson to remember when they draft the next guy. If we draft Bryce Young or whomever and he doesn't look great after year two it's time to think about moving him and drafting someone else. There is no sound reason to chase a lost cause.
Exactly. And Eli signed what at 7/$49MM rookie deal? Does anyone think DJ would take $7MM a year to stay the QB for years 5, 6, and 7? I'm pretty sure that's what TT got
Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.
I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.
I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
PAt Shurmur was a desperate moron and a bad NFL head coach. Who really cares?
Shurmur was desperate to draft potential playmakers who had potential to win some games here and now. He had little to know regard for building a team for the long run.
That is why he drafted Barkley instead of Darnold. And that is why he drafted Jones and wanted to bench Eli. He saw other QBs "doing heroic things" and thought ELi who hated running ; would go down from a jersey pull etc. should be benched in favor of someone who uses his head as a battering ram and doesn't bother sliding after a QB draw play.
The only problem is he was probably just as big as some of the linebackers when he was playing Wake Forrest so in Shurm heads view this could work in the NFL. We've quickly discovered that NFL linebackers are bigger than the ones Jones faced in college and the strategy didn't quite work.
Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.
I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.
I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
Rank the order of incompetent steps by our former genius of a GM:
*Assessing in early 2018 that Eli could still start/win
*Not properly evaluating available QBs in 2018 draft
*Bypassing all QBs and trade down opportunities to pick a RB overall #2
*Keeping Eli and his salary in place once again in 2019
*Keeping Eli in place and still drafting Jones in Rd 1
*Being duped to draft Jones earlier at #6 instead of #17
*Benching Eli after 2 games for Jones
*Overlooking that Eli and Jones actually need decent OL, WRs and TEs around them to function
*Not putting some valid competition at QB for Jones in 2020 or 2021
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
Holy shit, how did Jones end up in the discussion?
You think you can have a hypothetical conversation about drafting a different QB and not have the current QB, who was drafted one year after the QB who is being discussed in the hypothetical scenario, come up in conversation?
Does that seem reasonable in your tiny little brain?
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
Even dumber shit is thinking that the QB chosen by the same GM who built that dumpster fire isn't part of the dumpster fire.
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
You use Jeff George as a comp while suggesting other posters are usually wrong?
That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
Jeff George was also basically a semi-statue back there
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
Even dumber shit is thinking that the QB chosen by the same GM who built that dumpster fire isn't part of the dumpster fire.
That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
We're simple minded because you made an embarrassingly bad comparison and everyone laughed at you?
That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
And some of us believe Jones is part of all that, not an exception from it
Jones is actually this good QB or at the very least we don’t know because of the roster
So a 70 million dollar Golladay who doesn’t catch one TD all season. All season! You have a relatively high draft pick WR that doesn’t catch one TD all season!
This has nothing to do with the qb who he easily the worst starter in the league . Nothing whatsoever
Jones is actually this good QB or at the very least we don’t know because of the roster
So a 70 million dollar Golladay who doesn’t catch one TD all season. All season! You have a relatively high draft pick WR that doesn’t catch one TD all season!
This has nothing to do with the qb who he easily the worst starter in the league . Nothing whatsoever
Even the biggest DJ optimist would have to admit that the absolute best case scenario for him this year is peak Kirk Cousins. And if that happens they franchise him and are stuck in QB purgatory. I like the guy but some people have convinced themselves that Daboll is going to turn him into Josh Allen
That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
Yeah we forgot. Us simpletons have been telling posters like you that very point for years, but you never really got it.
The Jeff George comparison is just another example...
Jones is actually this good QB or at the very least we don’t know because of the roster
So a 70 million dollar Golladay who doesn’t catch one TD all season. All season! You have a relatively high draft pick WR that doesn’t catch one TD all season!
This has nothing to do with the qb who he easily the worst starter in the league . Nothing whatsoever
(1) Daniel Jones is not the worst starter in the league. Bottom 10 yes, but not the worst.
(2) KG is not free from blame as there were plenty of times where he gave half-assed attempts at playing the ball. Toney had a 3rd Round grade by Sy and could not stay healthy. Many of the BBI faithful wanted Elijah Moore if we went for a WR.
1. We don't build around Eli.
2. We don't sign Solder but stick with Flowers for a year more.
3. We trade down somehow and if not we draft QB Josh Allen
Eli starts and struggles, of course, and perhaps we do worse by a game and have an earlier pick in 2019...
Point is we no know Josh Allen would have been best and building around Eli (try to win while rebuilding) was a bad ownership idea. Good intentions but terrible results.
1. We don't build around Eli.
2. We don't sign Solder but stick with Flowers for a year more.
3. We trade down somehow and if not we draft QB Josh Allen
Eli starts and struggles, of course, and perhaps we do worse by a game and have an earlier pick in 2019...
Point is we no know Josh Allen would have been best and building around Eli (try to win while rebuilding) was a bad ownership idea. Good intentions but terrible results.
we may not have known about Allen and what he would become in 2018, but many called out building around Eli as mistake in real time
1. We don't build around Eli.
2. We don't sign Solder but stick with Flowers for a year more.
3. We trade down somehow and if not we draft QB Josh Allen
Eli starts and struggles, of course, and perhaps we do worse by a game and have an earlier pick in 2019...
Point is we no know Josh Allen would have been best and building around Eli (try to win while rebuilding) was a bad ownership idea. Good intentions but terrible results.
we may not have known about Allen and what he would become in 2018, but many called out building around Eli as mistake in real time
Eli had the quick release and mind for the game but he could no longer sidestep the rush like he did 2012 and earlier.... truly a bad move based on MONEY and building on his legacy than football smarts.
DJ might not have been given the best tools to work with, but he's shown next to nothing that he's a franchise QB.
I don’t care about Daniel Jones. This thread should have nothing to do with Daniel Jones. This is about Josh Allen and how some think you can just cut and paste his Buffalo stats to the Giants and call it a day.
Josh Allen did not look good his first two years in the league, and that’s coming into a much better situation than the 2018 Giants.
Still developing but you could see clear consistent improvement in many parts of his game. He threw for 20 TDs, a 2 to 1 ratio on TDs to Ints, ran for a ton of yards and another 9 scores as well. He also had many 4th qtr comebacks and game winning drives leading his team to 10 wins and a playoff berth as noted in this thread earlier.
Josh Allen was progressively improving, and by year three was a bona fide MVP candidate.
His durability, arm, and legs would make all but maybe 3 or 4 teams immediately better at the position. Especially the Giants.
That Jeff George comment is filling up someone's Mt. Rushmore. I recall awesome gems like "don't sleep on the 2019 Giants," and Gettleman "systematically building a championship team."
... probably not likely because I think this team is still a ways off and we don't know what we have in the staff and scheme or OL yet.... but I will absolutely laugh my ass off at you phucqers if this team turns it around and Jones starts kicking ass. That will be hilarious... lol
... probably not likely because I think this team is still a ways off and we don't know what we have in the staff and scheme or OL yet.... but I will absolutely laugh my ass off at you phucqers if this team turns it around and Jones starts kicking ass. That will be hilarious... lol
So can we laugh at you now because Jones has been bad for three years?
I’ve shared this observation many times on BBI. I couldn’t stand Tom Coughlin. I didn’t like when he was hired. I thought he was phony and would never succeed. And I did everything in my power to be there and literally cried in the stands at his final game in January of 2016.
No one dislikes Daniel Jones. He’s just been really bad. No one will be upset if he has an improbable turn around.
For many of us — it doesn’t matter if it’s Daniel Jones or if it’s Donald Duck. There’s no personal attachment or favorite players. We just want the Giants to do well. And so far Daniel Jones hasn’t come close.
... probably not likely because I think this team is still a ways off and we don't know what we have in the staff and scheme or OL yet.... but I will absolutely laugh my ass off at you phucqers if this team turns it around and Jones starts kicking ass. That will be hilarious... lol
So can we laugh at you now because Jones has been bad for three years?
I’ve shared this observation many times on BBI. I couldn’t stand Tom Coughlin. I didn’t like when he was hired. I thought he was phony and would never succeed. And I did everything in my power to be there and literally cried in the stands at his final game in January of 2016.
No one dislikes Daniel Jones. He’s just been really bad. No one will be upset if he has an improbable turn around.
For many of us — it doesn’t matter if it’s Daniel Jones or if it’s Donald Duck. There’s no personal attachment or favorite players. We just want the Giants to do well. And so far Daniel Jones hasn’t come close.
There's nothing funny about watching the Giants these past few years. They've been an unwatchable disaster, and it's tough to understand why fans who supposedly care about wins and losses would lobby for any of the players that were a part of it.
There's nothing funny about watching the Giants these past few years. They've been an unwatchable disaster, and it's tough to understand why fans who supposedly care about wins and losses would lobby for any of the players that were a part of it.
I agree with it not being funny. To be fair, I don't lobby for anyone. He is the Giants QB. The best case scenario is for him to thrive and kick ass. If he doesn't we move on and I root for the next guy. But I want him to succeed and kick ass. Call me Crazy. What can I say.
I want Niko Lalos to become Lawrence Taylor. Why aren't you going around talking about how much you want that?
What we want as fans is distinct from what will happen in reality.
If we see a bus crash off a cliff into the ocean we want everyone inside to be ok. The reality is likely to be very different from that. We want Daniel Jones to lead this team to a title. The reality is he isn't any good.
What we want isn't interesting. We all want the same thing.
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Strawman. You might a couple idiots on the site that say flat out "Can't" Pointing to outliers as any kind of evidence is the weakest kind of support.
Nearly, all of us want a light turn on and the kid to be great. We think that is about as likely as the next Kurt Warner is bagging groceries at my local Albertson's.
Going into each year, my take on what I want the Giants to do is based on the odds I think it will succeed.
I don’t put any more value on something improbable happening. I want the Giants to do the most high odds things, no matter what.
I think it’s very low odds Jones ever competes for a championship.
Solid.
Agreed, a fair take. My only argument with you guys really only has ever been that I think he has shown better than you do. And that comes down to how successful I think any QB would have been in this same situation as it has unfolded for the Giants since 2019. Which is to say, I don't think anyone would have been successful. It's not a great example but at least Glennon playing for the Bears *looked* like a not completely uncapable backup. On the Giants he looked like he shouldn't even be on a football field. When Jones went out the tent completely folded. I have seen enough of Jones to think he has the tools in the right (or even just decent) system on a team that at least has a competitive roster. And I agree with people like Chris and Phil Simms that see that in him as well.
And again I don't know how many times I can say, if we move on... Sayonara. I'll root for the next guy up. But I still think there's enough there to succeed and as a fan, I am rooting for that to happen. Nothing more, nothing less.
QB, not the DE
Better? Worse? No clue. But very different.
I can’t imagine he’d be at the level he is now with the past coaching staffs, front office, roster, etc
I can’t imagine he’d be at the level he is now with the past coaching staffs, front office, roster, etc
Even with the better coaching staff I remember many of my friends (grew up in Rochester so surrounded by Bills fans) being very concerned about Allen heading into his third season.
At that point he had flashed the arm strength, but his completion % was not great and he was taking some big hits which led to at least one concussion.
Just to be clear, this is not a Jones/Allen comparison thread.
I don’t disagree, but Bettcher would have still gotten Shurmur fired.
Lmao
Comedy gold
I agree, for all his faults Pat Shurmur was very good with quarterbacks and I believe that Allen would still develop into a star QB here although he would have had a far more difficult time with the lack of talent around him.
Jones was actually more accurate coming out of college, and had a BETTER 1st year in the NFL than Allen's. Allen didn't really start clicking till season 3.
This is classic nature vs nurture to me, and Allen had the advantage of both. They cleaned up his mechanics which improved his accuracy. They protected him WAY better than the Giants have DJ, and being with the same coach and offense for a while has provided him with stability that helped his progress.
Conversely, as Mara so eloquently put it, the Giants have done everything they could to screw up Daniel Jones.
I think had Jones gone to Buffalo and played under the circumstances Allen has enjoyed, Jones' ceiling isn't as high as Allen's but I think his career would have been markedly better, and further along than it has been thus far. And I think if the Giants had done everything they could to screw up Josh Allen I don't think Allen would have done much better than Jones has under the same circumstances.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
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everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
So, with the coaches and the roster the Giants had he would have still excelled? I think not.
Uh, watch the video and get back with me.
Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, non would have been successful here.
Not saying Jones is the answer, just saying no one would have been successful.
Unless you consider executing the double kneel down as success.
This^^. But the question would be if he would’ve shown enough to help Shurm keep the gig. I think with Shurm Allen would have progressed well.
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I think Shurmur would have done really well with Allen.
This^^. But the question would be if he would’ve shown enough to help Shurm keep the gig. I think with Shurm Allen would have progressed well.
Shurmur’s offense didn’t get him fired. It was Bettcher’s defense.
Did you write this with a straight face?
Allen is a natural playmaker who can make chicken salad. If you can't see it, well, you can't see. That's why I linked the video where Allen is making every play on his own.
Now, I'm not suggesting we'd be knocking on the door of the SB, like the Bills have been doing the last two years, but we'd have a helluva lot better record than 12-25 since Jones arrived. And Allen would be the BEST QB in the NFCE.
You can't teach that talent. It's that simple.
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Buffalo's Josh Allen would very possibly be out of the league now, maybe playing in the USFL or even less, if the GIANTS had drafted him and handed him to the absolutely terrible coaching staffs that they have had since Mara fired Coughlin.
Did you write this with a straight face?
Allen is a natural playmaker who can make chicken salad. If you can't see it, well, you can't see. That's why I linked the video where Allen is making every play on his own.
Now, I'm not suggesting we'd be knocking on the door of the SB, like the Bills have been doing the last two years, but we'd have a helluva lot better record than 12-25 since Jones arrived. And Allen would be the BEST QB in the NFCE.
You can't teach that talent. It's that simple.
I think they would have a better record than they have had with Jones, but I don’t think Allen would be the star that he is at the moment. I also think there is a high likelihood that he would have missed a lot of games behind the line that this team trotted out there the past several seasons.
Bottom line is QB is the most important position in football. No question about that. However, football is called the ultimate team game for a reason. I don’t think any QB in the NFL would have made the Giants a playoff contender in any of their recent seasons. Mahomes, Allen, Brady, Rodgers, Herbert. The most wins the Giants would have had the last few seasons with any of those QB’s (assuming they survived to play 17 games) is 8 or 9.
They definitely wouldn't have gotten better like they did in Buffalo especially after the Giants hired Joe Judge & Jason Garrett.
His receivers there couldn't get open and couldn't catch. I said so at the time. In the limited film there was available during that draft season, you could see that his accuracy was much better than the numbers suggested.
He made throws that most NFL QBs can't make, and accurately.
Did the receiver always catch it? No, not even close.
People really fell into the trap that he was this inaccurate QB when that really wasn't the case.
Adjusting to the NFL was always going to be a challenge for him bc he played at Wyoming FGS.
You can tell the people that watch film vs just read stats.
It is a team game and the Bills have a very good overall team that supports one another. They have had a top 5 D. Coaching has been pretty good on both sides.
So while things may have looked better on the Giants hard to say how much impact it would have on W/L's imv.
People still put too much on the QB. History has consistently shown how important talent around a QB is. Giants just have not had enough couple with health issues.
Whoa...
Quote:
then they probably would have also drafted 2019 Josh Allen
Whoa...
The question will be easier to answer at season's end.
Did JA help make Dabs, or did Dabs make JA?
1. Get more talent around him because the team stinks.
2. The certain handful would be clamoring to find a new QB because once you stink, you always stink - and would be touting to take Daniel Jones with the 7th pick in the 2019 draft.
But that kind evaluation of the 2018 Draft could only be accomplished if we had a different GM at the time.
And that would have made us better also...
Right, because we all agree on every topic.
chucklehead...
Jones was actually more accurate coming out of college, and had a BETTER 1st year in the NFL than Allen's. Allen didn't really start clicking till season 3.
This is classic nature vs nurture to me, and Allen had the advantage of both. They cleaned up his mechanics which improved his accuracy. They protected him WAY better than the Giants have DJ, and being with the same coach and offense for a while has provided him with stability that helped his progress.
Conversely, as Mara so eloquently put it, the Giants have done everything they could to screw up Daniel Jones.
I think had Jones gone to Buffalo and played under the circumstances Allen has enjoyed, Jones' ceiling isn't as high as Allen's but I think his career would have been markedly better, and further along than it has been thus far. And I think if the Giants had done everything they could to screw up Josh Allen I don't think Allen would have done much better than Jones has under the same circumstances.
We screwed up and are paying the wages of sin. Instead of punting qb for one season to enter the qb bonanza and have a stud like Allen fall in our lap, we threw the 6 pick away on a guy whose ceiling was "starter".
Huh?
"Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him."
Did you watch any Buffalo games last year or the playoff game versus KC?
He is a prime example of a QB that elevates the team around him...
Quote:
are now. Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him. he has had a much better supporting cast and coaches surrounding him. And he's had the benefit of much better ownership and admin to get better draft picks and FA's
Did you watch any Buffalo games last year or the playoff game versus KC?
He is a prime example of a QB that elevates the team around him...
I agree. I actually think he may surpass Mahomes this year. Allen's legs are a bit better than Mahomes and Allen has really gotten better every year.
Now the question no one can answers is - does Josh Allen become the same player he is now with a dogshit roster, poor coaching, and piss poor management. he obviously is better than Jones by a wide margin, but we dont know if he reaches his peak here either.
A more interesting question is what Jones would be if the Bills drafted him and as a result where Schoen and Daboll would be right now as a result. Again, I think Jones would be better than he has shown on the Giants, but not a star.
Jones was actually more accurate coming out of college, and had a BETTER 1st year in the NFL than Allen's. Allen didn't really start clicking till season 3.
This is classic nature vs nurture to me, and Allen had the advantage of both. They cleaned up his mechanics which improved his accuracy. They protected him WAY better than the Giants have DJ, and being with the same coach and offense for a while has provided him with stability that helped his progress.
Conversely, as Mara so eloquently put it, the Giants have done everything they could to screw up Daniel Jones.
I think had Jones gone to Buffalo and played under the circumstances Allen has enjoyed, Jones' ceiling isn't as high as Allen's but I think his career would have been markedly better, and further along than it has been thus far. And I think if the Giants had done everything they could to screw up Josh Allen I don't think Allen would have done much better than Jones has under the same circumstances.
Really good post - very fair POV.
Why does that apply to Jones but not ABOUT Jones?
What if DJ is more appropriately one of the excuses instead of one of the excused?
BS. Eli didn't suck here. He certainly didn't throw only 11 TDs. He certianly didn't have all these great coaches (post Coughlin). All he had was immature, albeit talented, WR who probably did more harm than good while here as a teammate.
Disagree that Josh Allen was already a star in college. He was great against MWC competition, but when faced with better opponents he struggled. The questions about Allen's floor prior to the draft were legit and that was compounded by the fact that he did take a step back in his draft year when much of his OL/skill guys graduated. There was some concern that he would only be as good as the talent he had around him. His rookie year did nothing to alleviate those concerns if you are comfortable with sub 53% completion percentage, more INT than TD's, and 5.4 AY/A. In 10 out of 16 games in his rookie year, Buffalo's offense had less than 20 points. Every win they had was when the Defense held their opponents to 21 points or fewer. Buffalo was 5-2 in those games.
One of the big reasons I liked him was his journey. No college recruited him out of high school. He went the JC route to Wyoming. This tells you a lot of who he is imv.
No he wasnt. He was very inaccurate in college and stunk up against major D-1 schools.
Now everyone was basing him off projections and tools. But he was no "Star" in college.
If people think that is "star" material, you never saw him play. His game against Iowa was much hyped and he absolutely was wretched.
Now kudos to him for working hard and becoming the player he is. But there were justifiably huge question marks about him. You dont complete 55% of your passes as a starter and not have question marks.
Let's not forget, it wasn't until year 3 that he became a very good QB. This staff has 1 year to have a similar impact on Jones, because in my opinion, unless he comes out of 2022 looking like the current version of Allen, I wouldn't re-sign him.
If people think that is "star" material, you never saw him play. His game against Iowa was much hyped and he absolutely was wretched.
Now kudos to him for working hard and becoming the player he is. But there were justifiably huge question marks about him. You dont complete 55% of your passes as a starter and not have question marks.
Short sighted looking at his passing stats. The HC at Wyoming came from NDSU where they were winning championships. He has not been able to replicate that success. Before Allen they won 2 games. With him they won 8 games both years he started.
To give a better reference point on the stats look at the rushing yards of the team. 34 carries per game for 108 yards. 3.2/attempt. That is a bad offensive team in college.
Often the stats some focus on don't tell the true story.
Sorry I forgot we only give the special treatment to poor Daniel..
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Josh Allen averaged a total of less than 200 yards per game Passing AND rushing.
If people think that is "star" material, you never saw him play. His game against Iowa was much hyped and he absolutely was wretched.
Now kudos to him for working hard and becoming the player he is. But there were justifiably huge question marks about him. You dont complete 55% of your passes as a starter and not have question marks.
Short sighted looking at his passing stats. The HC at Wyoming came from NDSU where they were winning championships. He has not been able to replicate that success. Before Allen they won 2 games. With him they won 8 games both years he started.
To give a better reference point on the stats look at the rushing yards of the team. 34 carries per game for 108 yards. 3.2/attempt. That is a bad offensive team in college.
Often the stats some focus on don't tell the true story.
So what did Allen do that made him a star? Hand the ball off like you suggested?
I understand Allen didn’t play with great players. But again, name me all the “stars” in college football that averaged less than 200 yards passing and rushing. He accounted for less than 2 TDs a game.
He wasn’t a star. He did have star potential though. Which I noted.
Hell even after four years Allen is still a bit of an enigma to me as he most of the time throws off balance and throws to wide open receivers on extended plays. He certainly did not develop Aaron Rogers accuracy (who had it plainly in college) or Eli throwing it into a proverbial bucket to Manningham moving down the sideline at 20 mphs covered by two defenders.
I guess Elway had a similar game to Allen.
But he had huge potential and kudos to him to turning himself into a great pro.
He is exactly what you want in a QB in today's NFL...
Let's see. Allen is a bigger, stronger, faster athlete than Jones. He has exponentially better arm talent and clearly has the skill sets to make off-script play at the highest level. Do you understand that part?
So, when a play breaks down, Allen can still keep a play alive and make winning plays. In contrast, when a play breaks down for Jones, he typically breaks down to. I really suggest you watch that link I provided in an earlier post. It shows Allen making plays with his legs when the play goes off-script. It's a remarkable skill.
I don't know how anyone can watch Allen and not see he is blessed with innate skills to play the position. Jones, on the other hand, is not a natural QB at all and plays the position in a very robotic fashion.
If Schoen/Daboll felt remotely similarly about Jones they would have picked up his 5th year option.
But he had huge potential and kudos to him to turning himself into a great pro.
He is exactly what you want in a QB in today's NFL...
Exactly. It wasnt like he was putting up 4000 total yard seasons with 35-40 TDs at Wyoming. He didnt even crack 20 total TDs. And was very inaccurate.
But the traits were drool worthy. 6'5 - 240 and ran like a 4.6 I think. It took him until 3 year to be a mega star. Kudo to him. He is an absolute treat to watch.
Sorry I forgot we only give the special treatment to poor Daniel..
Imagine if Dallas drafted Barkley.
Hell even after four years Allen is still a bit of an enigma to me as he most of the time throws off balance and throws to wide open receivers on extended plays. He certainly did not develop Aaron Rogers accuracy (who had it plainly in college) or Eli throwing it into a proverbial bucket to Manningham moving down the sideline at 20 mphs covered by two defenders.
I guess Elway had a similar game to Allen.
There is some truth to those words on accuracy. However as I noted he was a three sport high school player. Never attended the camps. Now if he had the benefit of having committed to football at a early age the results would have been different. The Bills correctly identified it was correctable.
Elway is a good comparison. His upbringing in the game was far more advanced in terms of coaching. Allen is also only 26 so you have a lot of upside. The bigger issue might be the Bills keep a good enough team around him.
Let's not forget, it wasn't until year 3 that he became a very good QB. This staff has 1 year to have a similar impact on Jones, because in my opinion, unless he comes out of 2022 looking like the current version of Allen, I wouldn't re-sign him.
This is not true. In Allen's second year he had a 20TD/9INT, which is very solid, and had 500+ yards rushing with another 9 rushing TDs. And that was after running for 8 TDs his rookie year (with 600+ yards rushing) in only 11 games.
Further, he led the league in game winning drives and 4th quarter comebacks.
So, by year two, the signs were clearly there that this was a player on the rise...
Hell even after four years Allen is still a bit of an enigma to me as he most of the time throws off balance and throws to wide open receivers on extended plays. He certainly did not develop Aaron Rogers accuracy (who had it plainly in college) or Eli throwing it into a proverbial bucket to Manningham moving down the sideline at 20 mphs covered by two defenders.
I guess Elway had a similar game to Allen.
you seem to like to call out savvy posters...
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As with all the big names at QB in that draft, Allen came with a lot of questions. Based on the issues he had, I still wouldn't have drafted him back then (without hindsight, obviously) and I doubt the Giants version of him, if we did, would be as good as the current Bills version of him.
Let's not forget, it wasn't until year 3 that he became a very good QB. This staff has 1 year to have a similar impact on Jones, because in my opinion, unless he comes out of 2022 looking like the current version of Allen, I wouldn't re-sign him.
This is not true. In Allen's second year he had a 20TD/9INT, which is very solid, and had 500+ yards rushing with another 9 rushing TDs. And that was after running for 8 TDs his rookie year (with 600+ yards rushing) in only 11 games.
Further, he led the league in game winning drives and 4th quarter comebacks.
So, by year two, the signs were clearly there that this was a player on the rise...
Yep, was going to say same. You beat me to it...
The talent gap between Allen and Jones is not so small that they could be flipped without noticing a difference in team performance. Allen is a supreme talent. Jones is not. The selling point on Jones was that he was entering the NFL a polished finished product. Turns out he's Blaine Gabbert.
He's a STAR now, clearly, but don't try and sell me he was a star in college or in his first two seasons in the NFL. That shit just won't fly.
Like Mahomes, he had raw talent, and he had shown flashes of what he MIGHT become in a best-case scenario (so did Jamarcus Russell and lot of other big-armed busts), but he was FAR from a sure thing as evidenced by where he (and Mahomes) were drafted, and it took 3 NFL seasons for it to click for him.
He's was a boom or bust prospect who happened to eventually BOOM. But it took the learning curve the scouts thought it would.
And you can bet that if he had had his first two Buffalo seasons as a Giant, the very guys on this board calling him a "transcendent talent" would have been calling for his head before he had his breakout.
I think Wyoming did run some sort of pro style ground and pound offense, which sounds absurd for a division 4 program or whatever the hell they were - almost as absurd as Herbert running a heavy screen offense. So a factor in Allen's shit stats, but still 55% is outright garbage.
And you can bet that if he had had his first two Buffalo seasons as a Giant, the very guys on this board calling him a "transcendent talent" would have been calling for his head before he had his breakout.
Allen put up 10 wins as a starter and led his team to playoffs in Year 2, with 4 fourth qtr comebacks and 5 game winning drives.
Anybody on BBI calling for his head back then would look like a moron...
And both of them can make any throw needed on a football field.
The throws Allen makes moving to his left are extraordinary. Just an effortless combination of power and touch.
His last year at TT.
12 games 388/491 66.7% 8.5 y/a 41 TD's 10 Int.
If The Giants drafted Josh Allen in 2018 and the Bills drafted Daniel Jones in 2019, Josh Allen would still be a much better QB today than Jones. He is smarter and has much more physical talent.
Where they are today may be a little different, but to think that Josh Allen would have had his third "prove it" year last year with the Giants is silly.
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
The Giants drafted the most talented RB to come alone in ten years and he still couldn't resurrect a rushing attack, even at his best, in 2018, Barkley got his but the running game never really gained true traction that a truly great running game would gain. I wonder why?
Allen would be like Watson here without the happy endings and that includes all those sundays.
but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
Sounds like an absolute there.
Since you like absolutes, here's another: drafting Barkley was one of the biggest mistakes this organization made in my over three decades as a fan.
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
The Giants drafted the most talented RB to come alone in ten years and he still couldn't resurrect a rushing attack, even at his best, in 2018, Barkley got his but the running game never really gained true traction that a truly great running game would gain. I wonder why?
Allen would be like Watson here without the happy endings and that includes all those sundays.
Regarding Barkley...
McL has created a ton of posts showing the underlying stats on why the NYG rushing game was so inefficient with him as a runner. Even in 2018.
I will link a thread so you can see and absolutely understand why that is...
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
What's the difference between you assuring that we wouldn't have won very much with Allen and others assuring that we would have many more games than with Jones?
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He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
And what's amazing is that Jones was neither a star talent or super productive in college.
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love it...
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
The Giants drafted the most talented RB to come alone in ten years and he still couldn't resurrect a rushing attack, even at his best, in 2018, Barkley got his but the running game never really gained true traction that a truly great running game would gain. I wonder why?
Allen would be like Watson here without the happy endings and that includes all those sundays.
Regarding Barkley...
McL has created a ton of posts showing the underlying stats on why the NYG rushing game was so inefficient with him as a runner. Even in 2018.
I will link a thread so you can see and absolutely understand why that is...
This thread has some McL posts that go thru running success rates. He had a ton of other ones that I recall as well on the same theme.
You may have missed them because they were usually in long drawn out "battle threads" where some of the loud mouth defenders of Getts/everything Giants would shout and ridicule anybody that suggested picking a RB so early in 2018 for this team was a mistake.
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=618204
There won't be any excuses at that point. Most fans are pretty rational even if they like to take the wait and see approach.
What's your excuse for Alex Smith or to some extent, Tannehill? Tannehill did show some positive traits before going to Tenn, but most definitely evolved into a better more prolific QB the second he left Miami.
Alex Smith is the guy that no one can explain. You can underrate his career all you want, but there's no doubting he went from a perennial loser to a perennial winner after taking FAR too long to develop, like 6 years.
Lastly, Jones is in the last year of his contract. Sometimes it simply comes down to timing. The Giants didn't go out of their way to bring in Jones this year or keep jones this year. That kind of matters in this tired as fucking hell discussion. Jones WAS here and is still here because it makes little to sense to cut the guy NOW.
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In comment 15728632 David B. said:
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He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
And what's amazing is that Jones was neither a star talent or super productive in college.
Neither was Allen.
Allen: 56% completion rate, 44 TDs, 21 INTs, 4800 yards.
DJ: 60% completion rate, 52 TDs, 29 INTs, 8200 yards.
You guys keep trying to rewrite history. I just keep shaking my head.
Some of you act like it's never happened. It has. That's why teams go down with the ship on so many occasions and again, Jones was here under contract--cutting him now would be the height of ridiculously dumb, even if some of you know more than the experts. Hint, you really don't.
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He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
No, he was taken 7th because a team loved the raw potential of his size, athletic traits, and big arm especially in the cold weather conditions of Buffalo after Thanksgiving. Every team picking in the Top 7 needed a QB (even Tampa had taken Winston in 2015 but with 3-10 season in 2017 and INT rate I wouldn't say they were comfortable there) and all passed on Allen or traded down.
The selling point on Jones was completely different: not a great physical talent or productive in college, but a refined product polished by the hands of the guy that gave us Eli - David Cutcliffe.
It turns out they got that completely wrong. Jones's mental speed wasn't there (as Sy warned all of us) and he has a difficult time reading defenses or existing in the pocket. That is EXACTLY how things have borne out. There is little reason to expect a big improvement because unlike Allen Jones isn't a rough diamond; there is no untapped reservoir of talent there.
The only people rewriting history are those making excuses for Jones.
Jones's story with NYG is heading towards the conclusion that has been logical from day one: failure. An untalented (0 star recruit) and unproductive (never made 3rd team All-ACC) college quarterback isn't likely to become a successful NFL quarterback.
The selling point on Jones was completely different: not a great physical talent or productive in college, but a refined product polished by the hands of the guy that gave us Eli - David Cutcliffe.
It turns out they got that completely wrong. Jones's mental speed wasn't there (as Sy warned all of us) and he has a difficult time reading defenses or existing in the pocket. That is EXACTLY how things have borne out. There is little reason to expect a big improvement because unlike Allen Jones isn't a rough diamond; there is no untapped reservoir of talent there.
The only people rewriting history are those making excuses for Jones.
Jones's story with NYG is heading towards the conclusion that has been logical from day one: failure. An untalented (0 star recruit) and unproductive (never made 3rd team All-ACC) college quarterback isn't likely to become a successful NFL quarterback.
Allen was a 0 star recruit, and he started at a Junior College that his cousin got him into. Wyoming form the MWC was his only choice later at a four year school and he managed to make second team MWC one year. That's Mountain West Conference.
He was NEVER a great talent in college, let alone a star like bw would have everyone believe. He had a big friggin arm. He was a boom-bust talent that has boomed the last two years.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
No, he was taken 7th because a team loved the raw potential of his size, athletic traits, and big arm...
Right. All of those attributes are the talent parts I was referring to - "...star talent..."
It doesn't matter how many teams passed on him (gee, six). What matters is a smart organization like the Bills recognized Allen's incredible talent, traded up to draft him, and now are set at QB for another decade. And the inept organization we root for decided taking a fungible position player was the smarter move.
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Allen WAS a great talent in college. That was the selling point: big guy with mobility and a huge arm but very rough around the edges. He was drafted on spec for his physical body type and throwing ability. He was not drafted for his college output.
The selling point on Jones was completely different: not a great physical talent or productive in college, but a refined product polished by the hands of the guy that gave us Eli - David Cutcliffe.
It turns out they got that completely wrong. Jones's mental speed wasn't there (as Sy warned all of us) and he has a difficult time reading defenses or existing in the pocket. That is EXACTLY how things have borne out. There is little reason to expect a big improvement because unlike Allen Jones isn't a rough diamond; there is no untapped reservoir of talent there.
The only people rewriting history are those making excuses for Jones.
Jones's story with NYG is heading towards the conclusion that has been logical from day one: failure. An untalented (0 star recruit) and unproductive (never made 3rd team All-ACC) college quarterback isn't likely to become a successful NFL quarterback.
Allen was a 0 star recruit, and he started at a Junior College that his cousin got him into. Wyoming form the MWC was his only choice later at a four year school and he managed to make second team MWC one year. That's Mountain West Conference.
He was NEVER a great talent in college, let alone a star like bw would have everyone believe. He had a big friggin arm. He was a boom-bust talent that has boomed the last two years.
I agree that Allen was boom-bust. Huge physical talent that maybe could play, maybe could not. But the huge physical talent was there. That was the appeal.
Now remove that huge physical talent from Allen and what do you have? Daniel Jones.
He was NEVER a great talent in college, let alone a star like bw would have everyone believe. He had a big friggin arm. He was a boom-bust talent that has boomed the last two years.
You do realize that Aaron Rodgers basically had zero D1 offers as well. I think he was offered an opportunity to walk on at Illinois. So Allen is not alone in not getting a D1 opportunity at first.
I said Allen was a star talent. And he absolutely was with the way he threw, moved, ran, and improvised.
Yes, Allen was absolutely high risk, high reward. And a smart team like the Bills thought the talent was absolutely worth the risk and will very likely win a SB because of that decision...
But, really, what player isn't a risk coming into the draft?
When sorted by their college AY/A (this was nearly identical to sorting them by passer rating) Josh Allen was low in the group (39th with 7.7 AY/A), but who was tied for the very worst AY/A with Jake Locker at 6.2?
Daniel Jones.
The signs were all there. The Giants ignored them. Now here we are at 14-35 since we drafted him. Thankfully it will all be over soon.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.
But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.
What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.
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I wonder what the excuses will be when he's someone else's backup a year from now.
There won't be any excuses at that point. Most fans are pretty rational even if they like to take the wait and see approach.
What's your excuse for Alex Smith or to some extent, Tannehill? Tannehill did show some positive traits before going to Tenn, but most definitely evolved into a better more prolific QB the second he left Miami.
Alex Smith is the guy that no one can explain. You can underrate his career all you want, but there's no doubting he went from a perennial loser to a perennial winner after taking FAR too long to develop, like 6 years.
Alex Smith was an anomaly QB from the respect of how he needed to be spoon fed significantly before playing.
Had he gotten drafted by the Packers instead of the 49ers, he would've sat for a few seasons there and IMO been a clear franchise QB.
What they did for Patrick Mahomes, and what they've done for Trey Lance, he needed 50x more than either of those guys.
He was a first round physical talent that flashed in his second NFL season, but the dysfunction of the team and his shoulder injury put a physical and mental dent on him that more or less kept him from reaching his potential. He wasn't always a game manager, and had deep throwing ability at one point.
But his mental toughness is perhaps the toughest I've ever seen of an NFL QB. When people thought his career was over after that leg break in Washington, I knew a very good chance existed he would return to the NFL.
Lastly his intelligence was up there. He figured out a way to have a winning NFL career as a game manager, which in some ways is very very difficult to do.
Now take a look at the top and bottom 10 and look at their respective teams rushing yards and rypa
Understand that dynamic and you’ll understand offensive football better. You are also looking at elite WR’s at a lot of those top 10 which translates even more with those teams rushing ability.
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In comment 15728505 Go Terps said:
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I wonder what the excuses will be when he's someone else's backup a year from now.
There won't be any excuses at that point. Most fans are pretty rational even if they like to take the wait and see approach.
What's your excuse for Alex Smith or to some extent, Tannehill? Tannehill did show some positive traits before going to Tenn, but most definitely evolved into a better more prolific QB the second he left Miami.
Alex Smith is the guy that no one can explain. You can underrate his career all you want, but there's no doubting he went from a perennial loser to a perennial winner after taking FAR too long to develop, like 6 years.
Alex Smith was an anomaly QB from the respect of how he needed to be spoon fed significantly before playing.
Had he gotten drafted by the Packers instead of the 49ers, he would've sat for a few seasons there and IMO been a clear franchise QB.
What they did for Patrick Mahomes, and what they've done for Trey Lance, he needed 50x more than either of those guys.
He was a first round physical talent that flashed in his second NFL season, but the dysfunction of the team and his shoulder injury put a physical and mental dent on him that more or less kept him from reaching his potential. He wasn't always a game manager, and had deep throwing ability at one point.
But his mental toughness is perhaps the toughest I've ever seen of an NFL QB. When people thought his career was over after that leg break in Washington, I knew a very good chance existed he would return to the NFL.
Lastly his intelligence was up there. He figured out a way to have a winning NFL career as a game manager, which in some ways is very very difficult to do.
Giants D was treating Smith like SF D was treating Eli in the playoff game. He was game too and hung in there.
Now take a look at the top and bottom 10 and look at their respective teams rushing yards and rypa
Understand that dynamic and you’ll understand offensive football better. You are also looking at elite WR’s at a lot of those top 10 which translates even more with those teams rushing ability.
If you're looking at rushing yards in this day and age I'm not sure you should be speaking like an authority on offensive football. That list is basically every college QB that mattered in the NFL in the past decade prior to this last draft. We drafted one of the very worst on that list sixth overall.
It's important to say this aloud: Daniel Jones has never put together a really good season of high level football. His best season AY/A in six years of college and pro ball is 6.9.
We drafted a bad, untalented player #6 overall. Hoping he'll become a good player is the same as hoping Niko Lalos will become a really NFL starting linebacker. It's not impossible, but the odds on it are very long.
This is what Jones is.
Perhaps they’ll take the time to explain offensive football if you don’t believe me.
Perhaps they’ll take the time to explain offensive football if you don’t believe me.
I'm not going to do your research for you. Have at it.
By the way, if I remember it correctly very few on BBI wanted us to take Josh Allen
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I suggested what to look into regarding those stats. Tell all those HC’s of those in the top 10 how you feel about running the football. Then ask them how they apply to the stat you posted.
Perhaps they’ll take the time to explain offensive football if you don’t believe me.
I'm not going to do your research for you. Have at it.
I didn’t post a stupid post of stats to make a meaningless point. Tried to point you in a better direction. I understand the position and the variables around it.
Keep up the good work to trash Jones if it pleases you.
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everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.
But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.
What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.
Have you ever watched Daniel Jones in his long three years and been in awe of any play he has made? A play where you said, "JFC, this guy is a special talent and we're lucky to have him..."
I know I have said that about Allen, Mahomes and Herbert in any of their first two years. All QBs, btw, we could have and should have drafted.
I don't see Steve Young. I see John Elway, part II. Young did not have the arm Allen has.
Some of you act like it's never happened. It has. That's why teams go down with the ship on so many occasions and again, Jones was here under contract--cutting him now would be the height of ridiculously dumb, even if some of you know more than the experts. Hint, you really don't.
Where this falls flat isn't just in the way the game has evolved, it's in the way that the cap and rookie contract structure have changed the league's approach to young players - especially QBs, because of how expensive they become after their rookie contracts.
In the case of Simms, if he were playing now instead of 40 years ago, based on his first three years, the Giants would probably have picked up his 5th year option, but he would have then missed the entirety of his 4th season due to injury anyway.
Where it becomes interesting is whether Parcells would have felt compelled to play Simms in 1983 rather than benching him in favor of Brunner, since 1983 would have been his last opportunity to evaluate Simms before his contract expired (again, if we apply the current cap/contract framework). That would have meant 5+ games of evaluation instead of relief work in 2 games and a grand total of 13 passes in 1983.
For the sake of argument, let's just assume that Parcells would have handled his QB situation in exactly the same manner as he did back then if he was operating within the current cap/contract landscape. That means that Simms would have had his same first three years, then would have had his 5th year option picked up before his 4th year, only to miss his entire 4th season to injury, and most of his 5th season to injury.
Guess what would have happened next if the current cap/contract landscape existed then? Simms either signs a prove-it deal for 1984 as a FA, or walks. He only got the chance to restore his career in 1984 because the Giants effectively owned his rights pre-FA (and the compensatory penalty for signing FA at that time would have basically made Simms radioactive in 1984 coming off of two injury-plagued seasons).
And essentially, a prove-it contract is what Simms did get after his 5th year (albeit for much less, even comparatively speaking, than what a prove-it contract would look like for a QB in 2022): Simms made $275k in 1984 (reference here, under "How Much is Phil Simms Worth?"), which was about 40% higher than the league average salary for that period (reference here, under "The Big Money"). The average NFL salary for 2021 was $2.8M (reference here); if you want to tell me that DJ is going to re-sign for 40% above that ($3.9M) in 2023, then by all means, be patient. But he's not. He's going to cost multiples of that, even if he has another mediocre year in 2022.
I know you like to reference Simms every time this topic comes up, but that reference doesn't work, because the Giants would have either moved on from Simms after 1983 unless he took a cheap deal to restore his value, or would have at least commenced seeking his replacement even if he had. If Simms had played in the current system and would have commanded a significant pay increase in 1984, it's impossible to say that he ever would have ever even gotten a 6th season with the Giants, but it seems unlikely that he would have.
Absolutely correct. Much has to do with timing and luck in virtually any career situation.
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In comment 15728316 bw in dc said:
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everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.
But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.
What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.
Have you ever watched Daniel Jones in his long three years and been in awe of any play he has made? A play where you said, "JFC, this guy is a special talent and we're lucky to have him..."
I know I have said that about Allen, Mahomes and Herbert in any of their first two years. All QBs, btw, we could have and should have drafted.
I don't see Steve Young. I see John Elway, part II. Young did not have the arm Allen has.
Jones had a couple of "Wow" plays his first season.
That's the thing - there were many picks that would have been really good decisions. They made a horrible decision that was clearly horrible in real time.
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
That hasn't stopped many posters over the years of putting forth poorly constructed and/or non-compelling positions.
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The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Because, as I explained at length above, the takeaway of those historical examples is that those late bloomers are not only the exception, but even more importantly, the way that the cap/contract rules have changed means that those guys would have run out of chances much, much earlier.
You can't apply those past examples to the current/future, because there isn't any logical way to factor for salary cap and the extreme rise in veteran QB salaries.
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In comment 15728868 NINEster said:
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In comment 15728316 bw in dc said:
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everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.
But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.
What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.
Have you ever watched Daniel Jones in his long three years and been in awe of any play he has made? A play where you said, "JFC, this guy is a special talent and we're lucky to have him..."
I know I have said that about Allen, Mahomes and Herbert in any of their first two years. All QBs, btw, we could have and should have drafted.
I don't see Steve Young. I see John Elway, part II. Young did not have the arm Allen has.
Jones had a couple of "Wow" plays his first season.
for which team?
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The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Because it doesn't make sense to give a guy that many chances anymore. It makes much more sense to just draft another quarterback. They didn't make as much sense in 1983 because the rules were completely different.
It doesn't even make sense to go as far as the Giants have with Jones. They've put themselves in a position where he almost certainly walks for nothing. The better way to handle it would have been to cut bait after his terrible second year.
That's a lesson to remember when they draft the next guy. If we draft Bryce Young or whomever and he doesn't look great after year two it's time to think about moving him and drafting someone else. There is no sound reason to chase a lost cause.
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.
I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.
I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
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In comment 15728922 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Because it doesn't make sense to give a guy that many chances anymore. It makes much more sense to just draft another quarterback. They didn't make as much sense in 1983 because the rules were completely different.
It doesn't even make sense to go as far as the Giants have with Jones. They've put themselves in a position where he almost certainly walks for nothing. The better way to handle it would have been to cut bait after his terrible second year.
That's a lesson to remember when they draft the next guy. If we draft Bryce Young or whomever and he doesn't look great after year two it's time to think about moving him and drafting someone else. There is no sound reason to chase a lost cause.
Exactly. And Eli signed what at 7/$49MM rookie deal? Does anyone think DJ would take $7MM a year to stay the QB for years 5, 6, and 7? I'm pretty sure that's what TT got
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Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.
I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.
I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
PAt Shurmur was a desperate moron and a bad NFL head coach. Who really cares?
Shurmur was desperate to draft potential playmakers who had potential to win some games here and now. He had little to know regard for building a team for the long run.
That is why he drafted Barkley instead of Darnold. And that is why he drafted Jones and wanted to bench Eli. He saw other QBs "doing heroic things" and thought ELi who hated running ; would go down from a jersey pull etc. should be benched in favor of someone who uses his head as a battering ram and doesn't bother sliding after a QB draw play.
The only problem is he was probably just as big as some of the linebackers when he was playing Wake Forrest so in Shurm heads view this could work in the NFL. We've quickly discovered that NFL linebackers are bigger than the ones Jones faced in college and the strategy didn't quite work.
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Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation
Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.
As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.
I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.
I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
Rank the order of incompetent steps by our former genius of a GM:
*Assessing in early 2018 that Eli could still start/win
*Not properly evaluating available QBs in 2018 draft
*Bypassing all QBs and trade down opportunities to pick a RB overall #2
*Keeping Eli and his salary in place once again in 2019
*Keeping Eli in place and still drafting Jones in Rd 1
*Being duped to draft Jones earlier at #6 instead of #17
*Benching Eli after 2 games for Jones
*Overlooking that Eli and Jones actually need decent OL, WRs and TEs around them to function
*Not putting some valid competition at QB for Jones in 2020 or 2021
just awful...
Let's play straight comparison: if Daniel Jones tears his ACL in the pre-season and misses the whole season do you want him back in 2023?
If he's on the roster in 2023, but is rehabbing and doesn't play, do you want him back in 2024?
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
You think you can have a hypothetical conversation about drafting a different QB and not have the current QB, who was drafted one year after the QB who is being discussed in the hypothetical scenario, come up in conversation?
Does that seem reasonable in your tiny little brain?
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If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
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In comment 15729717 WillVAB said:
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If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
Even dumber shit is thinking that the QB chosen by the same GM who built that dumpster fire isn't part of the dumpster fire.
You use Jeff George as a comp while suggesting other posters are usually wrong?
chucklehead to the end...
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
That's like about half a season for Josh Allen...
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In comment 15729806 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15729717 WillVAB said:
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If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.
It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...
Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
Even dumber shit is thinking that the QB chosen by the same GM who built that dumpster fire isn't part of the dumpster fire.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
We're simple minded because you made an embarrassingly bad comparison and everyone laughed at you?
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That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
And some of us believe Jones is part of all that, not an exception from it
So a 70 million dollar Golladay who doesn’t catch one TD all season. All season! You have a relatively high draft pick WR that doesn’t catch one TD all season!
This has nothing to do with the qb who he easily the worst starter in the league . Nothing whatsoever
So a 70 million dollar Golladay who doesn’t catch one TD all season. All season! You have a relatively high draft pick WR that doesn’t catch one TD all season!
This has nothing to do with the qb who he easily the worst starter in the league . Nothing whatsoever
Even the biggest DJ optimist would have to admit that the absolute best case scenario for him this year is peak Kirk Cousins. And if that happens they franchise him and are stuck in QB purgatory. I like the guy but some people have convinced themselves that Daboll is going to turn him into Josh Allen
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That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.
Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.
Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.
If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
Yeah we forgot. Us simpletons have been telling posters like you that very point for years, but you never really got it.
The Jeff George comparison is just another example...
So a 70 million dollar Golladay who doesn’t catch one TD all season. All season! You have a relatively high draft pick WR that doesn’t catch one TD all season!
This has nothing to do with the qb who he easily the worst starter in the league . Nothing whatsoever
(1) Daniel Jones is not the worst starter in the league. Bottom 10 yes, but not the worst.
(2) KG is not free from blame as there were plenty of times where he gave half-assed attempts at playing the ball. Toney had a 3rd Round grade by Sy and could not stay healthy. Many of the BBI faithful wanted Elijah Moore if we went for a WR.
2. We don't sign Solder but stick with Flowers for a year more.
3. We trade down somehow and if not we draft QB Josh Allen
Eli starts and struggles, of course, and perhaps we do worse by a game and have an earlier pick in 2019...
Point is we no know Josh Allen would have been best and building around Eli (try to win while rebuilding) was a bad ownership idea. Good intentions but terrible results.
2. We don't sign Solder but stick with Flowers for a year more.
3. We trade down somehow and if not we draft QB Josh Allen
Eli starts and struggles, of course, and perhaps we do worse by a game and have an earlier pick in 2019...
Point is we no know Josh Allen would have been best and building around Eli (try to win while rebuilding) was a bad ownership idea. Good intentions but terrible results.
we may not have known about Allen and what he would become in 2018, but many called out building around Eli as mistake in real time
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1. We don't build around Eli.
2. We don't sign Solder but stick with Flowers for a year more.
3. We trade down somehow and if not we draft QB Josh Allen
Eli starts and struggles, of course, and perhaps we do worse by a game and have an earlier pick in 2019...
Point is we no know Josh Allen would have been best and building around Eli (try to win while rebuilding) was a bad ownership idea. Good intentions but terrible results.
we may not have known about Allen and what he would become in 2018, but many called out building around Eli as mistake in real time
I don’t care about Daniel Jones. This thread should have nothing to do with Daniel Jones. This is about Josh Allen and how some think you can just cut and paste his Buffalo stats to the Giants and call it a day.
Josh Allen did not look good his first two years in the league, and that’s coming into a much better situation than the 2018 Giants.
But of course he’s no Jeff George...
His durability, arm, and legs would make all but maybe 3 or 4 teams immediately better at the position. Especially the Giants.
That Jeff George comment is filling up someone's Mt. Rushmore. I recall awesome gems like "don't sleep on the 2019 Giants," and Gettleman "systematically building a championship team."
If the Giants do well, I bet the fans who were skeptical will be happy. That seems like a more healthy outcome.
So can we laugh at you now because Jones has been bad for three years?
No one dislikes Daniel Jones. He’s just been really bad. No one will be upset if he has an improbable turn around.
For many of us — it doesn’t matter if it’s Daniel Jones or if it’s Donald Duck. There’s no personal attachment or favorite players. We just want the Giants to do well. And so far Daniel Jones hasn’t come close.
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... probably not likely because I think this team is still a ways off and we don't know what we have in the staff and scheme or OL yet.... but I will absolutely laugh my ass off at you phucqers if this team turns it around and Jones starts kicking ass. That will be hilarious... lol
So can we laugh at you now because Jones has been bad for three years?
Ha, I'm sure you already do.
No one dislikes Daniel Jones. He’s just been really bad. No one will be upset if he has an improbable turn around.
For many of us — it doesn’t matter if it’s Daniel Jones or if it’s Donald Duck. There’s no personal attachment or favorite players. We just want the Giants to do well. And so far Daniel Jones hasn’t come close.
That's a fair take, Christian.
There was a guy on here that did something like that before...
I don’t put any more value on something improbable happening. I want the Giants to do the most high odds things, no matter what.
I think it’s very low odds Jones ever competes for a championship.
I agree with it not being funny. To be fair, I don't lobby for anyone. He is the Giants QB. The best case scenario is for him to thrive and kick ass. If he doesn't we move on and I root for the next guy. But I want him to succeed and kick ass. Call me Crazy. What can I say.
What we want as fans is distinct from what will happen in reality.
If we see a bus crash off a cliff into the ocean we want everyone inside to be ok. The reality is likely to be very different from that. We want Daniel Jones to lead this team to a title. The reality is he isn't any good.
What we want isn't interesting. We all want the same thing.
I don’t put any more value on something improbable happening. I want the Giants to do the most high odds things, no matter what.
I think it’s very low odds Jones ever competes for a championship.
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The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.
I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?
Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?
All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
Nearly, all of us want a light turn on and the kid to be great. We think that is about as likely as the next Kurt Warner is bagging groceries at my local Albertson's.
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Going into each year, my take on what I want the Giants to do is based on the odds I think it will succeed.
I don’t put any more value on something improbable happening. I want the Giants to do the most high odds things, no matter what.
I think it’s very low odds Jones ever competes for a championship.
Solid.
Agreed, a fair take. My only argument with you guys really only has ever been that I think he has shown better than you do. And that comes down to how successful I think any QB would have been in this same situation as it has unfolded for the Giants since 2019. Which is to say, I don't think anyone would have been successful. It's not a great example but at least Glennon playing for the Bears *looked* like a not completely uncapable backup. On the Giants he looked like he shouldn't even be on a football field. When Jones went out the tent completely folded. I have seen enough of Jones to think he has the tools in the right (or even just decent) system on a team that at least has a competitive roster. And I agree with people like Chris and Phil Simms that see that in him as well.
And again I don't know how many times I can say, if we move on... Sayonara. I'll root for the next guy up. But I still think there's enough there to succeed and as a fan, I am rooting for that to happen. Nothing more, nothing less.