Had this debate with a friend at work today. I think the ineptitude of the coaching staff and GM at that time would have ruined his career. He felt that Allen would have become a star on the Giants as well.
but I think he would be substantially behind where he is now if he had the Giants' coaches developing him, as well as the Giants' OL and receiving corps
With you! He would be Exactly what Daniel Jones is. Because he was very close to that when he started his NFL career. But he wouldn’t have had an O-Line or any of the coaches that helped in his development. Nobody calling creative offensive plays to build momentum. No top ten defense getting his offense back on the field…
With you! He would be Exactly what Daniel Jones is. Because he was very close to that when he started his NFL career. But he wouldn’t have had an O-Line or any of the coaches that helped in his development. Nobody calling creative offensive plays to build momentum. No top ten defense getting his offense back on the field…
...than replacing Barkley with Allen in the 2018 draft. You're talking about a completely different approach to building the post-Reese offense. No "Last Dance with Eli" tour. Probably no Solder, Omameh, Stewart, Tate, etc. Not sure Beckham or Shepard gets re-signed. Manning gets released in March 2019 to make way for Allen.
Better? Worse? No clue. But very different.
Football is a team sport......very curious what tips the scale
Allen was far from a finished product. He needed to be coached up big time to unlock his talent fully.
I can’t imagine he’d be at the level he is now with the past coaching staffs, front office, roster, etc
Even with the better coaching staff I remember many of my friends (grew up in Rochester so surrounded by Bills fans) being very concerned about Allen heading into his third season.
At that point he had flashed the arm strength, but his completion % was not great and he was taking some big hits which led to at least one concussion.
Just to be clear, this is not a Jones/Allen comparison thread.
I agree, for all his faults Pat Shurmur was very good with quarterbacks and I believe that Allen would still develop into a star QB here although he would have had a far more difficult time with the lack of talent around him.
But coming out of school, he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. His accuracy was awful. That's why he didn't go higher than he did. He was widely considered a boom or bust "project."
Jones was actually more accurate coming out of college, and had a BETTER 1st year in the NFL than Allen's. Allen didn't really start clicking till season 3.
This is classic nature vs nurture to me, and Allen had the advantage of both. They cleaned up his mechanics which improved his accuracy. They protected him WAY better than the Giants have DJ, and being with the same coach and offense for a while has provided him with stability that helped his progress.
Conversely, as Mara so eloquently put it, the Giants have done everything they could to screw up Daniel Jones.
I think had Jones gone to Buffalo and played under the circumstances Allen has enjoyed, Jones' ceiling isn't as high as Allen's but I think his career would have been markedly better, and further along than it has been thus far. And I think if the Giants had done everything they could to screw up Josh Allen I don't think Allen would have done much better than Jones has under the same circumstances.
I think the Giants would have ruined him... although he likely would have looked decent in year 1 with Shurmur. If Shurmur stuck around I think he would have been OK. Impossible to say though, and impossible to know why or how he improved so consistently (was it him or the coaching? - likely a combo of both). He landed in the right spot I think. Even in Buffalo he wasn't great right away, but he certainly showed flashes of brilliance and improved every year really breaking out in year 3.
Buffalo's Josh Allen would very possibly be out of the league now, maybe playing in the USFL or even less, if the GIANTS had drafted him and handed him to the absolutely terrible coaching staffs that they have had since Mara fired Coughlin.
Buffalo's Josh Allen would very possibly be out of the league now, maybe playing in the USFL or even less, if the GIANTS had drafted him and handed him to the absolutely terrible coaching staffs that they have had since Mara fired Coughlin.
Did you write this with a straight face?
Allen is a natural playmaker who can make chicken salad. If you can't see it, well, you can't see. That's why I linked the video where Allen is making every play on his own.
Now, I'm not suggesting we'd be knocking on the door of the SB, like the Bills have been doing the last two years, but we'd have a helluva lot better record than 12-25 since Jones arrived. And Allen would be the BEST QB in the NFCE.
Buffalo's Josh Allen would very possibly be out of the league now, maybe playing in the USFL or even less, if the GIANTS had drafted him and handed him to the absolutely terrible coaching staffs that they have had since Mara fired Coughlin.
Did you write this with a straight face?
Allen is a natural playmaker who can make chicken salad. If you can't see it, well, you can't see. That's why I linked the video where Allen is making every play on his own.
Now, I'm not suggesting we'd be knocking on the door of the SB, like the Bills have been doing the last two years, but we'd have a helluva lot better record than 12-25 since Jones arrived. And Allen would be the BEST QB in the NFCE.
You can't teach that talent. It's that simple.
I think they would have a better record than they have had with Jones, but I don’t think Allen would be the star that he is at the moment. I also think there is a high likelihood that he would have missed a lot of games behind the line that this team trotted out there the past several seasons.
Bottom line is QB is the most important position in football. No question about that. However, football is called the ultimate team game for a reason. I don’t think any QB in the NFL would have made the Giants a playoff contender in any of their recent seasons. Mahomes, Allen, Brady, Rodgers, Herbert. The most wins the Giants would have had the last few seasons with any of those QB’s (assuming they survived to play 17 games) is 8 or 9.
Now that teams have all the tape on Allen they need
He completed 56% of his passes in college. He completed 55.8% and he had 47 total TDs with 21 INTs & 22 fumbles in his first 2 years for a far superior team. His numbers most likely would've been worse with the Giants.
They definitely wouldn't have gotten better like they did in Buffalo especially after the Giants hired Joe Judge & Jason Garrett.
His receivers there couldn't get open and couldn't catch. I said so at the time. In the limited film there was available during that draft season, you could see that his accuracy was much better than the numbers suggested.
He made throws that most NFL QBs can't make, and accurately.
Did the receiver always catch it? No, not even close.
People really fell into the trap that he was this inaccurate QB when that really wasn't the case.
Adjusting to the NFL was always going to be a challenge for him bc he played at Wyoming FGS.
You can tell the people that watch film vs just read stats.
I think he would have looked like a really good QB but he also really took off when the Bills put more talent around him.
It is a team game and the Bills have a very good overall team that supports one another. They have had a top 5 D. Coaching has been pretty good on both sides.
So while things may have looked better on the Giants hard to say how much impact it would have on W/L's imv.
People still put too much on the QB. History has consistently shown how important talent around a QB is. Giants just have not had enough couple with health issues.
because the team around him would have been absolute dogshit, BBI would have reacted two ways:
1. Get more talent around him because the team stinks.
2. The certain handful would be clamoring to find a new QB because once you stink, you always stink - and would be touting to take Daniel Jones with the 7th pick in the 2019 draft.
Could have had Tom Brady too. This board wanted Josh Rosen. This board wanted Dwayne Haskins. Josh Allen would have been an unpopular pick with this board at that time.
Took immense strides when he worked intensively with Daboll and Co. and the Bills gave up a good amount for Diggs. He would not have had that as a Giant. His rookie year when he did not have that was substantially worse than Jones (outside of fumbling less). I think someone like Shurmur could have worked with him and would have been given a longer leash because Eli would have been gone. My concern though is getting the talent around him because Josh Allen was really the only logical pick at 6 in 2019 Draft if you were not going with Daniel Jones. That would not have provided the OL help we needed nor a skill position guy with Beckham gone. The OL taken in Round 1 of 2019 Draft have all busted.
Could have had Tom Brady too. This board wanted Josh Rosen. This board wanted Dwayne Haskins. Josh Allen would have been an unpopular pick with this board at that time.
Right, because we all agree on every topic.
chucklehead...
RE: Allen had better physical tools and the cannon arm
But coming out of school, he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. His accuracy was awful. That's why he didn't go higher than he did. He was widely considered a boom or bust "project."
Jones was actually more accurate coming out of college, and had a BETTER 1st year in the NFL than Allen's. Allen didn't really start clicking till season 3.
This is classic nature vs nurture to me, and Allen had the advantage of both. They cleaned up his mechanics which improved his accuracy. They protected him WAY better than the Giants have DJ, and being with the same coach and offense for a while has provided him with stability that helped his progress.
Conversely, as Mara so eloquently put it, the Giants have done everything they could to screw up Daniel Jones.
I think had Jones gone to Buffalo and played under the circumstances Allen has enjoyed, Jones' ceiling isn't as high as Allen's but I think his career would have been markedly better, and further along than it has been thus far. And I think if the Giants had done everything they could to screw up Josh Allen I don't think Allen would have done much better than Jones has under the same circumstances.
Silly take and flat out not so to anyone who bothered to watch 30 seconds of his highlights. In an earlier age before all the "analytics" and dopey "studies" about college completion percentage, Allen would have been the first pick in the entire draft like the second coming of Terry Bradshaw that he was.
We screwed up and are paying the wages of sin. Instead of punting qb for one season to enter the qb bonanza and have a stud like Allen fall in our lap, we threw the 6 pick away on a guy whose ceiling was "starter".
QB, not the DE
Better? Worse? No clue. But very different.
I can’t imagine he’d be at the level he is now with the past coaching staffs, front office, roster, etc
I can’t imagine he’d be at the level he is now with the past coaching staffs, front office, roster, etc
Even with the better coaching staff I remember many of my friends (grew up in Rochester so surrounded by Bills fans) being very concerned about Allen heading into his third season.
At that point he had flashed the arm strength, but his completion % was not great and he was taking some big hits which led to at least one concussion.
Just to be clear, this is not a Jones/Allen comparison thread.
I don’t disagree, but Bettcher would have still gotten Shurmur fired.
Lmao
Comedy gold
I agree, for all his faults Pat Shurmur was very good with quarterbacks and I believe that Allen would still develop into a star QB here although he would have had a far more difficult time with the lack of talent around him.
Jones was actually more accurate coming out of college, and had a BETTER 1st year in the NFL than Allen's. Allen didn't really start clicking till season 3.
This is classic nature vs nurture to me, and Allen had the advantage of both. They cleaned up his mechanics which improved his accuracy. They protected him WAY better than the Giants have DJ, and being with the same coach and offense for a while has provided him with stability that helped his progress.
Conversely, as Mara so eloquently put it, the Giants have done everything they could to screw up Daniel Jones.
I think had Jones gone to Buffalo and played under the circumstances Allen has enjoyed, Jones' ceiling isn't as high as Allen's but I think his career would have been markedly better, and further along than it has been thus far. And I think if the Giants had done everything they could to screw up Josh Allen I don't think Allen would have done much better than Jones has under the same circumstances.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
Quote:
everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.
So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.
What could have been... - ( New Window )
So, with the coaches and the roster the Giants had he would have still excelled? I think not.
Uh, watch the video and get back with me.
Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, non would have been successful here.
Not saying Jones is the answer, just saying no one would have been successful.
Unless you consider executing the double kneel down as success.
This^^. But the question would be if he would’ve shown enough to help Shurm keep the gig. I think with Shurm Allen would have progressed well.
Quote:
I think Shurmur would have done really well with Allen.
This^^. But the question would be if he would’ve shown enough to help Shurm keep the gig. I think with Shurm Allen would have progressed well.
Shurmur’s offense didn’t get him fired. It was Bettcher’s defense.
Did you write this with a straight face?
Allen is a natural playmaker who can make chicken salad. If you can't see it, well, you can't see. That's why I linked the video where Allen is making every play on his own.
Now, I'm not suggesting we'd be knocking on the door of the SB, like the Bills have been doing the last two years, but we'd have a helluva lot better record than 12-25 since Jones arrived. And Allen would be the BEST QB in the NFCE.
You can't teach that talent. It's that simple.
Quote:
Buffalo's Josh Allen would very possibly be out of the league now, maybe playing in the USFL or even less, if the GIANTS had drafted him and handed him to the absolutely terrible coaching staffs that they have had since Mara fired Coughlin.
Did you write this with a straight face?
Allen is a natural playmaker who can make chicken salad. If you can't see it, well, you can't see. That's why I linked the video where Allen is making every play on his own.
Now, I'm not suggesting we'd be knocking on the door of the SB, like the Bills have been doing the last two years, but we'd have a helluva lot better record than 12-25 since Jones arrived. And Allen would be the BEST QB in the NFCE.
You can't teach that talent. It's that simple.
I think they would have a better record than they have had with Jones, but I don’t think Allen would be the star that he is at the moment. I also think there is a high likelihood that he would have missed a lot of games behind the line that this team trotted out there the past several seasons.
Bottom line is QB is the most important position in football. No question about that. However, football is called the ultimate team game for a reason. I don’t think any QB in the NFL would have made the Giants a playoff contender in any of their recent seasons. Mahomes, Allen, Brady, Rodgers, Herbert. The most wins the Giants would have had the last few seasons with any of those QB’s (assuming they survived to play 17 games) is 8 or 9.
They definitely wouldn't have gotten better like they did in Buffalo especially after the Giants hired Joe Judge & Jason Garrett.
His receivers there couldn't get open and couldn't catch. I said so at the time. In the limited film there was available during that draft season, you could see that his accuracy was much better than the numbers suggested.
He made throws that most NFL QBs can't make, and accurately.
Did the receiver always catch it? No, not even close.
People really fell into the trap that he was this inaccurate QB when that really wasn't the case.
Adjusting to the NFL was always going to be a challenge for him bc he played at Wyoming FGS.
You can tell the people that watch film vs just read stats.
It is a team game and the Bills have a very good overall team that supports one another. They have had a top 5 D. Coaching has been pretty good on both sides.
So while things may have looked better on the Giants hard to say how much impact it would have on W/L's imv.
People still put too much on the QB. History has consistently shown how important talent around a QB is. Giants just have not had enough couple with health issues.
Whoa...
Quote:
then they probably would have also drafted 2019 Josh Allen
Whoa...
The question will be easier to answer at season's end.
Did JA help make Dabs, or did Dabs make JA?
1. Get more talent around him because the team stinks.
2. The certain handful would be clamoring to find a new QB because once you stink, you always stink - and would be touting to take Daniel Jones with the 7th pick in the 2019 draft.
But that kind evaluation of the 2018 Draft could only be accomplished if we had a different GM at the time.
And that would have made us better also...
Right, because we all agree on every topic.
chucklehead...
Jones was actually more accurate coming out of college, and had a BETTER 1st year in the NFL than Allen's. Allen didn't really start clicking till season 3.
This is classic nature vs nurture to me, and Allen had the advantage of both. They cleaned up his mechanics which improved his accuracy. They protected him WAY better than the Giants have DJ, and being with the same coach and offense for a while has provided him with stability that helped his progress.
Conversely, as Mara so eloquently put it, the Giants have done everything they could to screw up Daniel Jones.
I think had Jones gone to Buffalo and played under the circumstances Allen has enjoyed, Jones' ceiling isn't as high as Allen's but I think his career would have been markedly better, and further along than it has been thus far. And I think if the Giants had done everything they could to screw up Josh Allen I don't think Allen would have done much better than Jones has under the same circumstances.
We screwed up and are paying the wages of sin. Instead of punting qb for one season to enter the qb bonanza and have a stud like Allen fall in our lap, we threw the 6 pick away on a guy whose ceiling was "starter".