Had this debate with a friend at work today. I think the ineptitude of the coaching staff and GM at that time would have ruined his career. He felt that Allen would have become a star on the Giants as well.
Nobody can tell for certainty, but personally I think we'd currently be in the discussion as a darkhorse SB contender. Instead, most pundits are thinking we are looking at another double digit losing season and are a sure thing to be QB hunting next spring.
The Earth would have stopped rotating on its axis...
And it would have meant the end of all life as we know it. Five million years later, an alien species would discover this giant rock floating in space and conclude that it was inconsequential and not worth exploring further.
are now. Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him. he has had a much better supporting cast and coaches surrounding him. And he's had the benefit of much better ownership and admin to get better draft picks and FA's
RE: I think it's naive to think the Giants would be better off than they
are now. Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him. he has had a much better supporting cast and coaches surrounding him. And he's had the benefit of much better ownership and admin to get better draft picks and FA's
Huh?
"Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him."
RE: I think it's naive to think the Giants would be better off than they
are now. Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him. he has had a much better supporting cast and coaches surrounding him. And he's had the benefit of much better ownership and admin to get better draft picks and FA's
Did you watch any Buffalo games last year or the playoff game versus KC?
He is a prime example of a QB that elevates the team around him...
The rationalization of Jones's mediocrity knows no bounds
are now. Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him. he has had a much better supporting cast and coaches surrounding him. And he's had the benefit of much better ownership and admin to get better draft picks and FA's
Did you watch any Buffalo games last year or the playoff game versus KC?
He is a prime example of a QB that elevates the team around him...
I agree. I actually think he may surpass Mahomes this year. Allen's legs are a bit better than Mahomes and Allen has really gotten better every year.
Now the question no one can answers is - does Josh Allen become the same player he is now with a dogshit roster, poor coaching, and piss poor management. he obviously is better than Jones by a wide margin, but we dont know if he reaches his peak here either.
Trying to be objective, I think we would have gotten something in between what Allen is now and what Jones is. Allen is more talented, but had issues requiring a lot of coaching. The Bills did an excellent job with him. I do not have confidence that our coaching staffs and GM would have afforded him the same advantages. So, while I don't think he would be Daniel Jones, I also don't think he would be near the top of the league, as he is now.
A more interesting question is what Jones would be if the Bills drafted him and as a result where Schoen and Daboll would be right now as a result. Again, I think Jones would be better than he has shown on the Giants, but not a star.
RE: Allen had better physical tools and the cannon arm
But coming out of school, he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. His accuracy was awful. That's why he didn't go higher than he did. He was widely considered a boom or bust "project."
Jones was actually more accurate coming out of college, and had a BETTER 1st year in the NFL than Allen's. Allen didn't really start clicking till season 3.
This is classic nature vs nurture to me, and Allen had the advantage of both. They cleaned up his mechanics which improved his accuracy. They protected him WAY better than the Giants have DJ, and being with the same coach and offense for a while has provided him with stability that helped his progress.
Conversely, as Mara so eloquently put it, the Giants have done everything they could to screw up Daniel Jones.
I think had Jones gone to Buffalo and played under the circumstances Allen has enjoyed, Jones' ceiling isn't as high as Allen's but I think his career would have been markedly better, and further along than it has been thus far. And I think if the Giants had done everything they could to screw up Josh Allen I don't think Allen would have done much better than Jones has under the same circumstances.
BS. Eli didn't suck here. He certainly didn't throw only 11 TDs. He certianly didn't have all these great coaches (post Coughlin). All he had was immature, albeit talented, WR who probably did more harm than good while here as a teammate.
Even I saw that. I watched him in college and so obvious he was a star already.
Disagree that Josh Allen was already a star in college. He was great against MWC competition, but when faced with better opponents he struggled. The questions about Allen's floor prior to the draft were legit and that was compounded by the fact that he did take a step back in his draft year when much of his OL/skill guys graduated. There was some concern that he would only be as good as the talent he had around him. His rookie year did nothing to alleviate those concerns if you are comfortable with sub 53% completion percentage, more INT than TD's, and 5.4 AY/A. In 10 out of 16 games in his rookie year, Buffalo's offense had less than 20 points. Every win they had was when the Defense held their opponents to 21 points or fewer. Buffalo was 5-2 in those games.
He had the size, athletic ability and arm talent. He excelled in three sports in high school. He weighed 180 lbs. If you looked closely enough he had the QB intelligence. What he did not have was the development that some of the top QB's had coming out of high school. Mechanically he needed work.
One of the big reasons I liked him was his journey. No college recruited him out of high school. He went the JC route to Wyoming. This tells you a lot of who he is imv.
Josh Allen averaged a total of less than 200 yards per game Passing AND rushing.
If people think that is "star" material, you never saw him play. His game against Iowa was much hyped and he absolutely was wretched.
Now kudos to him for working hard and becoming the player he is. But there were justifiably huge question marks about him. You dont complete 55% of your passes as a starter and not have question marks.
Yeah, I'm not sure where the "star" classification is coming from
As with all the big names at QB in that draft, Allen came with a lot of questions. Based on the issues he had, I still wouldn't have drafted him back then (without hindsight, obviously) and I doubt the Giants version of him, if we did, would be as good as the current Bills version of him.
Let's not forget, it wasn't until year 3 that he became a very good QB. This staff has 1 year to have a similar impact on Jones, because in my opinion, unless he comes out of 2022 looking like the current version of Allen, I wouldn't re-sign him.
like with Jones, pretending its 2012 rather than 2022 to recreate him in the halycon memories of Eli Manning making pre-snap reads and adjustments and motions and calling out the mike and hot reads and audibles and fake audibles dropping back and sitting in the pocket for 6 seconds making two sides of the field 5 receiver progression reads.
Josh Allen averaged a total of less than 200 yards per game Passing AND rushing.
If people think that is "star" material, you never saw him play. His game against Iowa was much hyped and he absolutely was wretched.
Now kudos to him for working hard and becoming the player he is. But there were justifiably huge question marks about him. You dont complete 55% of your passes as a starter and not have question marks.
Short sighted looking at his passing stats. The HC at Wyoming came from NDSU where they were winning championships. He has not been able to replicate that success. Before Allen they won 2 games. With him they won 8 games both years he started.
To give a better reference point on the stats look at the rushing yards of the team. 34 carries per game for 108 yards. 3.2/attempt. That is a bad offensive team in college.
Often the stats some focus on don't tell the true story.
Josh Allen averaged a total of less than 200 yards per game Passing AND rushing.
If people think that is "star" material, you never saw him play. His game against Iowa was much hyped and he absolutely was wretched.
Now kudos to him for working hard and becoming the player he is. But there were justifiably huge question marks about him. You dont complete 55% of your passes as a starter and not have question marks.
Short sighted looking at his passing stats. The HC at Wyoming came from NDSU where they were winning championships. He has not been able to replicate that success. Before Allen they won 2 games. With him they won 8 games both years he started.
To give a better reference point on the stats look at the rushing yards of the team. 34 carries per game for 108 yards. 3.2/attempt. That is a bad offensive team in college.
Often the stats some focus on don't tell the true story.
So what did Allen do that made him a star? Hand the ball off like you suggested?
I understand Allen didn’t play with great players. But again, name me all the “stars” in college football that averaged less than 200 yards passing and rushing. He accounted for less than 2 TDs a game.
He wasn’t a star. He did have star potential though. Which I noted.
knew all along we should have drafted the obvious superstar while pundits like Cossell and Mike Leach outright say you don't get more accurate.
Hell even after four years Allen is still a bit of an enigma to me as he most of the time throws off balance and throws to wide open receivers on extended plays. He certainly did not develop Aaron Rogers accuracy (who had it plainly in college) or Eli throwing it into a proverbial bucket to Manningham moving down the sideline at 20 mphs covered by two defenders.
I guess Elway had a similar game to Allen.
Allen had several plus traits, good frame and a monster arm which
put him somewhere in the top of that draft class. But we discussed it a good bit...questions about accuracy and competition were the items that caused him not to be the #1 or #2 QB on the ranking list.
But he had huge potential and kudos to him to turning himself into a great pro.
He is exactly what you want in a QB in today's NFL...
RE: I think it's naive to think the Giants would be better off than they
are now. Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him. he has had a much better supporting cast and coaches surrounding him. And he's had the benefit of much better ownership and admin to get better draft picks and FA's
Let's see. Allen is a bigger, stronger, faster athlete than Jones. He has exponentially better arm talent and clearly has the skill sets to make off-script play at the highest level. Do you understand that part?
So, when a play breaks down, Allen can still keep a play alive and make winning plays. In contrast, when a play breaks down for Jones, he typically breaks down to. I really suggest you watch that link I provided in an earlier post. It shows Allen making plays with his legs when the play goes off-script. It's a remarkable skill.
I don't know how anyone can watch Allen and not see he is blessed with innate skills to play the position. Jones, on the other hand, is not a natural QB at all and plays the position in a very robotic fashion.
If Schoen/Daboll felt remotely similarly about Jones they would have picked up his 5th year option.
RE: Allen had several plus traits, good frame and a monster arm which
put him somewhere in the top of that draft class. But we discussed it a good bit...questions about accuracy and competition were the items that caused him not to be the #1 or #2 QB on the ranking list.
But he had huge potential and kudos to him to turning himself into a great pro.
He is exactly what you want in a QB in today's NFL...
Exactly. It wasnt like he was putting up 4000 total yard seasons with 35-40 TDs at Wyoming. He didnt even crack 20 total TDs. And was very inaccurate.
But the traits were drool worthy. 6'5 - 240 and ran like a 4.6 I think. It took him until 3 year to be a mega star. Kudo to him. He is an absolute treat to watch.
knew all along we should have drafted the obvious superstar while pundits like Cossell and Mike Leach outright say you don't get more accurate.
Hell even after four years Allen is still a bit of an enigma to me as he most of the time throws off balance and throws to wide open receivers on extended plays. He certainly did not develop Aaron Rogers accuracy (who had it plainly in college) or Eli throwing it into a proverbial bucket to Manningham moving down the sideline at 20 mphs covered by two defenders.
I guess Elway had a similar game to Allen.
There is some truth to those words on accuracy. However as I noted he was a three sport high school player. Never attended the camps. Now if he had the benefit of having committed to football at a early age the results would have been different. The Bills correctly identified it was correctable.
Elway is a good comparison. His upbringing in the game was far more advanced in terms of coaching. Allen is also only 26 so you have a lot of upside. The bigger issue might be the Bills keep a good enough team around him.
As with all the big names at QB in that draft, Allen came with a lot of questions. Based on the issues he had, I still wouldn't have drafted him back then (without hindsight, obviously) and I doubt the Giants version of him, if we did, would be as good as the current Bills version of him.
Let's not forget, it wasn't until year 3 that he became a very good QB. This staff has 1 year to have a similar impact on Jones, because in my opinion, unless he comes out of 2022 looking like the current version of Allen, I wouldn't re-sign him.
This is not true. In Allen's second year he had a 20TD/9INT, which is very solid, and had 500+ yards rushing with another 9 rushing TDs. And that was after running for 8 TDs his rookie year (with 600+ yards rushing) in only 11 games.
Further, he led the league in game winning drives and 4th quarter comebacks.
So, by year two, the signs were clearly there that this was a player on the rise...
knew all along we should have drafted the obvious superstar while pundits like Cossell and Mike Leach outright say you don't get more accurate.
Hell even after four years Allen is still a bit of an enigma to me as he most of the time throws off balance and throws to wide open receivers on extended plays. He certainly did not develop Aaron Rogers accuracy (who had it plainly in college) or Eli throwing it into a proverbial bucket to Manningham moving down the sideline at 20 mphs covered by two defenders.
As with all the big names at QB in that draft, Allen came with a lot of questions. Based on the issues he had, I still wouldn't have drafted him back then (without hindsight, obviously) and I doubt the Giants version of him, if we did, would be as good as the current Bills version of him.
Let's not forget, it wasn't until year 3 that he became a very good QB. This staff has 1 year to have a similar impact on Jones, because in my opinion, unless he comes out of 2022 looking like the current version of Allen, I wouldn't re-sign him.
This is not true. In Allen's second year he had a 20TD/9INT, which is very solid, and had 500+ yards rushing with another 9 rushing TDs. And that was after running for 8 TDs his rookie year (with 600+ yards rushing) in only 11 games.
Further, he led the league in game winning drives and 4th quarter comebacks.
So, by year two, the signs were clearly there that this was a player on the rise...
I'm sure Jones would be doing this all the time in Buffalo.
The talent gap between Allen and Jones is not so small that they could be flipped without noticing a difference in team performance. Allen is a supreme talent. Jones is not. The selling point on Jones was that he was entering the NFL a polished finished product. Turns out he's Blaine Gabbert.
If he was "a star in college" and had already put it all together
He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
He's a STAR now, clearly, but don't try and sell me he was a star in college or in his first two seasons in the NFL. That shit just won't fly.
Like Mahomes, he had raw talent, and he had shown flashes of what he MIGHT become in a best-case scenario (so did Jamarcus Russell and lot of other big-armed busts), but he was FAR from a sure thing as evidenced by where he (and Mahomes) were drafted, and it took 3 NFL seasons for it to click for him.
He's was a boom or bust prospect who happened to eventually BOOM. But it took the learning curve the scouts thought it would.
And you can bet that if he had had his first two Buffalo seasons as a Giant, the very guys on this board calling him a "transcendent talent" would have been calling for his head before he had his breakout.
I think Wyoming did run some sort of pro style ground and pound offense, which sounds absurd for a division 4 program or whatever the hell they were - almost as absurd as Herbert running a heavy screen offense. So a factor in Allen's shit stats, but still 55% is outright garbage.
And you can bet that if he had had his first two Buffalo seasons as a Giant, the very guys on this board calling him a "transcendent talent" would have been calling for his head before he had his breakout.
Allen put up 10 wins as a starter and led his team to playoffs in Year 2, with 4 fourth qtr comebacks and 5 game winning drives.
Anybody on BBI calling for his head back then would look like a moron...
I think the two issues were that he had some head scratching decision making and he played in the Air Raid offense which has produced a lot of pinball numbers for QB's over the years. They some of the QB's never panned out in the NFL.
His last year at TT.
12 games 388/491 66.7% 8.5 y/a 41 TD's 10 Int.
Do bad QBs become good QBs with good coaches, and good QBs turn out bad with bad coaches? Absolutely not.
If The Giants drafted Josh Allen in 2018 and the Bills drafted Daniel Jones in 2019, Josh Allen would still be a much better QB today than Jones. He is smarter and has much more physical talent.
Where they are today may be a little different, but to think that Josh Allen would have had his third "prove it" year last year with the Giants is silly.
whole lot of absolutes and black and white type declarations
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
The Giants drafted the most talented RB to come alone in ten years and he still couldn't resurrect a rushing attack, even at his best, in 2018, Barkley got his but the running game never really gained true traction that a truly great running game would gain. I wonder why?
Allen would be like Watson here without the happy endings and that includes all those sundays.
RE: whole lot of absolutes and black and white type declarations
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
The Giants drafted the most talented RB to come alone in ten years and he still couldn't resurrect a rushing attack, even at his best, in 2018, Barkley got his but the running game never really gained true traction that a truly great running game would gain. I wonder why?
Allen would be like Watson here without the happy endings and that includes all those sundays.
Regarding Barkley...
McL has created a ton of posts showing the underlying stats on why the NYG rushing game was so inefficient with him as a runner. Even in 2018.
I will link a thread so you can see and absolutely understand why that is...
He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
RE: whole lot of absolutes and black and white type declarations
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
What's the difference between you assuring that we wouldn't have won very much with Allen and others assuring that we would have many more games than with Jones?
He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
And what's amazing is that Jones was neither a star talent or super productive in college.
RE: RE: whole lot of absolutes and black and white type declarations
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
The Giants drafted the most talented RB to come alone in ten years and he still couldn't resurrect a rushing attack, even at his best, in 2018, Barkley got his but the running game never really gained true traction that a truly great running game would gain. I wonder why?
Allen would be like Watson here without the happy endings and that includes all those sundays.
Regarding Barkley...
McL has created a ton of posts showing the underlying stats on why the NYG rushing game was so inefficient with him as a runner. Even in 2018.
I will link a thread so you can see and absolutely understand why that is...
This thread has some McL posts that go thru running success rates. He had a ton of other ones that I recall as well on the same theme.
You may have missed them because they were usually in long drawn out "battle threads" where some of the loud mouth defenders of Getts/everything Giants would shout and ridicule anybody that suggested picking a RB so early in 2018 for this team was a mistake.
I wonder what the excuses will be when he's someone else's backup a year from now.
There won't be any excuses at that point. Most fans are pretty rational even if they like to take the wait and see approach.
What's your excuse for Alex Smith or to some extent, Tannehill? Tannehill did show some positive traits before going to Tenn, but most definitely evolved into a better more prolific QB the second he left Miami.
Alex Smith is the guy that no one can explain. You can underrate his career all you want, but there's no doubting he went from a perennial loser to a perennial winner after taking FAR too long to develop, like 6 years.
Lastly, Jones is in the last year of his contract. Sometimes it simply comes down to timing. The Giants didn't go out of their way to bring in Jones this year or keep jones this year. That kind of matters in this tired as fucking hell discussion. Jones WAS here and is still here because it makes little to sense to cut the guy NOW.
He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
And what's amazing is that Jones was neither a star talent or super productive in college.
comparisons to a by-gone era but Phil Simms virtually a complete unknown in College. He put up very very ordinary stats. HE also took SIX years to reach household name territory. The game was different sure, but it's still just football.
Some of you act like it's never happened. It has. That's why teams go down with the ship on so many occasions and again, Jones was here under contract--cutting him now would be the height of ridiculously dumb, even if some of you know more than the experts. Hint, you really don't.
Huh?
"Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him."
Did you watch any Buffalo games last year or the playoff game versus KC?
He is a prime example of a QB that elevates the team around him...
Quote:
are now. Allen is not some great, elite QB that can elevate the entire team around him. he has had a much better supporting cast and coaches surrounding him. And he's had the benefit of much better ownership and admin to get better draft picks and FA's
Did you watch any Buffalo games last year or the playoff game versus KC?
He is a prime example of a QB that elevates the team around him...
I agree. I actually think he may surpass Mahomes this year. Allen's legs are a bit better than Mahomes and Allen has really gotten better every year.
Now the question no one can answers is - does Josh Allen become the same player he is now with a dogshit roster, poor coaching, and piss poor management. he obviously is better than Jones by a wide margin, but we dont know if he reaches his peak here either.
A more interesting question is what Jones would be if the Bills drafted him and as a result where Schoen and Daboll would be right now as a result. Again, I think Jones would be better than he has shown on the Giants, but not a star.
Jones was actually more accurate coming out of college, and had a BETTER 1st year in the NFL than Allen's. Allen didn't really start clicking till season 3.
This is classic nature vs nurture to me, and Allen had the advantage of both. They cleaned up his mechanics which improved his accuracy. They protected him WAY better than the Giants have DJ, and being with the same coach and offense for a while has provided him with stability that helped his progress.
Conversely, as Mara so eloquently put it, the Giants have done everything they could to screw up Daniel Jones.
I think had Jones gone to Buffalo and played under the circumstances Allen has enjoyed, Jones' ceiling isn't as high as Allen's but I think his career would have been markedly better, and further along than it has been thus far. And I think if the Giants had done everything they could to screw up Josh Allen I don't think Allen would have done much better than Jones has under the same circumstances.
Really good post - very fair POV.
Why does that apply to Jones but not ABOUT Jones?
What if DJ is more appropriately one of the excuses instead of one of the excused?
BS. Eli didn't suck here. He certainly didn't throw only 11 TDs. He certianly didn't have all these great coaches (post Coughlin). All he had was immature, albeit talented, WR who probably did more harm than good while here as a teammate.
Disagree that Josh Allen was already a star in college. He was great against MWC competition, but when faced with better opponents he struggled. The questions about Allen's floor prior to the draft were legit and that was compounded by the fact that he did take a step back in his draft year when much of his OL/skill guys graduated. There was some concern that he would only be as good as the talent he had around him. His rookie year did nothing to alleviate those concerns if you are comfortable with sub 53% completion percentage, more INT than TD's, and 5.4 AY/A. In 10 out of 16 games in his rookie year, Buffalo's offense had less than 20 points. Every win they had was when the Defense held their opponents to 21 points or fewer. Buffalo was 5-2 in those games.
One of the big reasons I liked him was his journey. No college recruited him out of high school. He went the JC route to Wyoming. This tells you a lot of who he is imv.
No he wasnt. He was very inaccurate in college and stunk up against major D-1 schools.
Now everyone was basing him off projections and tools. But he was no "Star" in college.
If people think that is "star" material, you never saw him play. His game against Iowa was much hyped and he absolutely was wretched.
Now kudos to him for working hard and becoming the player he is. But there were justifiably huge question marks about him. You dont complete 55% of your passes as a starter and not have question marks.
Let's not forget, it wasn't until year 3 that he became a very good QB. This staff has 1 year to have a similar impact on Jones, because in my opinion, unless he comes out of 2022 looking like the current version of Allen, I wouldn't re-sign him.
If people think that is "star" material, you never saw him play. His game against Iowa was much hyped and he absolutely was wretched.
Now kudos to him for working hard and becoming the player he is. But there were justifiably huge question marks about him. You dont complete 55% of your passes as a starter and not have question marks.
Short sighted looking at his passing stats. The HC at Wyoming came from NDSU where they were winning championships. He has not been able to replicate that success. Before Allen they won 2 games. With him they won 8 games both years he started.
To give a better reference point on the stats look at the rushing yards of the team. 34 carries per game for 108 yards. 3.2/attempt. That is a bad offensive team in college.
Often the stats some focus on don't tell the true story.
Sorry I forgot we only give the special treatment to poor Daniel..
Quote:
Josh Allen averaged a total of less than 200 yards per game Passing AND rushing.
If people think that is "star" material, you never saw him play. His game against Iowa was much hyped and he absolutely was wretched.
Now kudos to him for working hard and becoming the player he is. But there were justifiably huge question marks about him. You dont complete 55% of your passes as a starter and not have question marks.
Short sighted looking at his passing stats. The HC at Wyoming came from NDSU where they were winning championships. He has not been able to replicate that success. Before Allen they won 2 games. With him they won 8 games both years he started.
To give a better reference point on the stats look at the rushing yards of the team. 34 carries per game for 108 yards. 3.2/attempt. That is a bad offensive team in college.
Often the stats some focus on don't tell the true story.
So what did Allen do that made him a star? Hand the ball off like you suggested?
I understand Allen didn’t play with great players. But again, name me all the “stars” in college football that averaged less than 200 yards passing and rushing. He accounted for less than 2 TDs a game.
He wasn’t a star. He did have star potential though. Which I noted.
Hell even after four years Allen is still a bit of an enigma to me as he most of the time throws off balance and throws to wide open receivers on extended plays. He certainly did not develop Aaron Rogers accuracy (who had it plainly in college) or Eli throwing it into a proverbial bucket to Manningham moving down the sideline at 20 mphs covered by two defenders.
I guess Elway had a similar game to Allen.
But he had huge potential and kudos to him to turning himself into a great pro.
He is exactly what you want in a QB in today's NFL...
Let's see. Allen is a bigger, stronger, faster athlete than Jones. He has exponentially better arm talent and clearly has the skill sets to make off-script play at the highest level. Do you understand that part?
So, when a play breaks down, Allen can still keep a play alive and make winning plays. In contrast, when a play breaks down for Jones, he typically breaks down to. I really suggest you watch that link I provided in an earlier post. It shows Allen making plays with his legs when the play goes off-script. It's a remarkable skill.
I don't know how anyone can watch Allen and not see he is blessed with innate skills to play the position. Jones, on the other hand, is not a natural QB at all and plays the position in a very robotic fashion.
If Schoen/Daboll felt remotely similarly about Jones they would have picked up his 5th year option.
But he had huge potential and kudos to him to turning himself into a great pro.
He is exactly what you want in a QB in today's NFL...
Exactly. It wasnt like he was putting up 4000 total yard seasons with 35-40 TDs at Wyoming. He didnt even crack 20 total TDs. And was very inaccurate.
But the traits were drool worthy. 6'5 - 240 and ran like a 4.6 I think. It took him until 3 year to be a mega star. Kudo to him. He is an absolute treat to watch.
Sorry I forgot we only give the special treatment to poor Daniel..
Imagine if Dallas drafted Barkley.
Hell even after four years Allen is still a bit of an enigma to me as he most of the time throws off balance and throws to wide open receivers on extended plays. He certainly did not develop Aaron Rogers accuracy (who had it plainly in college) or Eli throwing it into a proverbial bucket to Manningham moving down the sideline at 20 mphs covered by two defenders.
I guess Elway had a similar game to Allen.
There is some truth to those words on accuracy. However as I noted he was a three sport high school player. Never attended the camps. Now if he had the benefit of having committed to football at a early age the results would have been different. The Bills correctly identified it was correctable.
Elway is a good comparison. His upbringing in the game was far more advanced in terms of coaching. Allen is also only 26 so you have a lot of upside. The bigger issue might be the Bills keep a good enough team around him.
Let's not forget, it wasn't until year 3 that he became a very good QB. This staff has 1 year to have a similar impact on Jones, because in my opinion, unless he comes out of 2022 looking like the current version of Allen, I wouldn't re-sign him.
This is not true. In Allen's second year he had a 20TD/9INT, which is very solid, and had 500+ yards rushing with another 9 rushing TDs. And that was after running for 8 TDs his rookie year (with 600+ yards rushing) in only 11 games.
Further, he led the league in game winning drives and 4th quarter comebacks.
So, by year two, the signs were clearly there that this was a player on the rise...
Hell even after four years Allen is still a bit of an enigma to me as he most of the time throws off balance and throws to wide open receivers on extended plays. He certainly did not develop Aaron Rogers accuracy (who had it plainly in college) or Eli throwing it into a proverbial bucket to Manningham moving down the sideline at 20 mphs covered by two defenders.
I guess Elway had a similar game to Allen.
you seem to like to call out savvy posters...
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As with all the big names at QB in that draft, Allen came with a lot of questions. Based on the issues he had, I still wouldn't have drafted him back then (without hindsight, obviously) and I doubt the Giants version of him, if we did, would be as good as the current Bills version of him.
Let's not forget, it wasn't until year 3 that he became a very good QB. This staff has 1 year to have a similar impact on Jones, because in my opinion, unless he comes out of 2022 looking like the current version of Allen, I wouldn't re-sign him.
This is not true. In Allen's second year he had a 20TD/9INT, which is very solid, and had 500+ yards rushing with another 9 rushing TDs. And that was after running for 8 TDs his rookie year (with 600+ yards rushing) in only 11 games.
Further, he led the league in game winning drives and 4th quarter comebacks.
So, by year two, the signs were clearly there that this was a player on the rise...
Yep, was going to say same. You beat me to it...
The talent gap between Allen and Jones is not so small that they could be flipped without noticing a difference in team performance. Allen is a supreme talent. Jones is not. The selling point on Jones was that he was entering the NFL a polished finished product. Turns out he's Blaine Gabbert.
He's a STAR now, clearly, but don't try and sell me he was a star in college or in his first two seasons in the NFL. That shit just won't fly.
Like Mahomes, he had raw talent, and he had shown flashes of what he MIGHT become in a best-case scenario (so did Jamarcus Russell and lot of other big-armed busts), but he was FAR from a sure thing as evidenced by where he (and Mahomes) were drafted, and it took 3 NFL seasons for it to click for him.
He's was a boom or bust prospect who happened to eventually BOOM. But it took the learning curve the scouts thought it would.
And you can bet that if he had had his first two Buffalo seasons as a Giant, the very guys on this board calling him a "transcendent talent" would have been calling for his head before he had his breakout.
I think Wyoming did run some sort of pro style ground and pound offense, which sounds absurd for a division 4 program or whatever the hell they were - almost as absurd as Herbert running a heavy screen offense. So a factor in Allen's shit stats, but still 55% is outright garbage.
And you can bet that if he had had his first two Buffalo seasons as a Giant, the very guys on this board calling him a "transcendent talent" would have been calling for his head before he had his breakout.
Allen put up 10 wins as a starter and led his team to playoffs in Year 2, with 4 fourth qtr comebacks and 5 game winning drives.
Anybody on BBI calling for his head back then would look like a moron...
And both of them can make any throw needed on a football field.
The throws Allen makes moving to his left are extraordinary. Just an effortless combination of power and touch.
His last year at TT.
12 games 388/491 66.7% 8.5 y/a 41 TD's 10 Int.
If The Giants drafted Josh Allen in 2018 and the Bills drafted Daniel Jones in 2019, Josh Allen would still be a much better QB today than Jones. He is smarter and has much more physical talent.
Where they are today may be a little different, but to think that Josh Allen would have had his third "prove it" year last year with the Giants is silly.
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
The Giants drafted the most talented RB to come alone in ten years and he still couldn't resurrect a rushing attack, even at his best, in 2018, Barkley got his but the running game never really gained true traction that a truly great running game would gain. I wonder why?
Allen would be like Watson here without the happy endings and that includes all those sundays.
but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
Sounds like an absolute there.
Since you like absolutes, here's another: drafting Barkley was one of the biggest mistakes this organization made in my over three decades as a fan.
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
The Giants drafted the most talented RB to come alone in ten years and he still couldn't resurrect a rushing attack, even at his best, in 2018, Barkley got his but the running game never really gained true traction that a truly great running game would gain. I wonder why?
Allen would be like Watson here without the happy endings and that includes all those sundays.
Regarding Barkley...
McL has created a ton of posts showing the underlying stats on why the NYG rushing game was so inefficient with him as a runner. Even in 2018.
I will link a thread so you can see and absolutely understand why that is...
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
What's the difference between you assuring that we wouldn't have won very much with Allen and others assuring that we would have many more games than with Jones?
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He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
And what's amazing is that Jones was neither a star talent or super productive in college.
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love it...
Allen is better than Jones. Allen needed time. Allen also plays in a better spot than Jones.
We'd be better off. How much better? Who the fuck knows...but I assure you all, we wouldn't have won very much.
The Giants drafted the most talented RB to come alone in ten years and he still couldn't resurrect a rushing attack, even at his best, in 2018, Barkley got his but the running game never really gained true traction that a truly great running game would gain. I wonder why?
Allen would be like Watson here without the happy endings and that includes all those sundays.
Regarding Barkley...
McL has created a ton of posts showing the underlying stats on why the NYG rushing game was so inefficient with him as a runner. Even in 2018.
I will link a thread so you can see and absolutely understand why that is...
This thread has some McL posts that go thru running success rates. He had a ton of other ones that I recall as well on the same theme.
You may have missed them because they were usually in long drawn out "battle threads" where some of the loud mouth defenders of Getts/everything Giants would shout and ridicule anybody that suggested picking a RB so early in 2018 for this team was a mistake.
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=618204
There won't be any excuses at that point. Most fans are pretty rational even if they like to take the wait and see approach.
What's your excuse for Alex Smith or to some extent, Tannehill? Tannehill did show some positive traits before going to Tenn, but most definitely evolved into a better more prolific QB the second he left Miami.
Alex Smith is the guy that no one can explain. You can underrate his career all you want, but there's no doubting he went from a perennial loser to a perennial winner after taking FAR too long to develop, like 6 years.
Lastly, Jones is in the last year of his contract. Sometimes it simply comes down to timing. The Giants didn't go out of their way to bring in Jones this year or keep jones this year. That kind of matters in this tired as fucking hell discussion. Jones WAS here and is still here because it makes little to sense to cut the guy NOW.
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In comment 15728632 David B. said:
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He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.
Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.
And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.
And what's amazing is that Jones was neither a star talent or super productive in college.
Neither was Allen.
Allen: 56% completion rate, 44 TDs, 21 INTs, 4800 yards.
DJ: 60% completion rate, 52 TDs, 29 INTs, 8200 yards.
You guys keep trying to rewrite history. I just keep shaking my head.
Some of you act like it's never happened. It has. That's why teams go down with the ship on so many occasions and again, Jones was here under contract--cutting him now would be the height of ridiculously dumb, even if some of you know more than the experts. Hint, you really don't.