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What would have happened if the Giants drafted Josh Allen?

eric2425ny : 6/8/2022 9:06 pm
Had this debate with a friend at work today. I think the ineptitude of the coaching staff and GM at that time would have ruined his career. He felt that Allen would have become a star on the Giants as well.

Curious to hear others’ opinions on this.
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RE: RE: If he was  
Mike in NY : 6/9/2022 5:06 pm : link
In comment 15728776 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15728632 David B. said:


Quote:


He would have been a slam-dunk 1st overall pick. He wasn't NFL-ready coming out of college.





Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.

And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.


No, he was taken 7th because a team loved the raw potential of his size, athletic traits, and big arm especially in the cold weather conditions of Buffalo after Thanksgiving. Every team picking in the Top 7 needed a QB (even Tampa had taken Winston in 2015 but with 3-10 season in 2017 and INT rate I wouldn't say they were comfortable there) and all passed on Allen or traded down.
MOOPS  
Go Terps : 6/9/2022 5:10 pm : link
Allen WAS a great talent in college. That was the selling point: big guy with mobility and a huge arm but very rough around the edges. He was drafted on spec for his physical body type and throwing ability. He was not drafted for his college output.

The selling point on Jones was completely different: not a great physical talent or productive in college, but a refined product polished by the hands of the guy that gave us Eli - David Cutcliffe.

It turns out they got that completely wrong. Jones's mental speed wasn't there (as Sy warned all of us) and he has a difficult time reading defenses or existing in the pocket. That is EXACTLY how things have borne out. There is little reason to expect a big improvement because unlike Allen Jones isn't a rough diamond; there is no untapped reservoir of talent there.

The only people rewriting history are those making excuses for Jones.

Jones's story with NYG is heading towards the conclusion that has been logical from day one: failure. An untalented (0 star recruit) and unproductive (never made 3rd team All-ACC) college quarterback isn't likely to become a successful NFL quarterback.
RE: MOOPS  
MOOPS : 6/9/2022 5:33 pm : link
In comment 15728807 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Allen WAS a great talent in college. That was the selling point: big guy with mobility and a huge arm but very rough around the edges. He was drafted on spec for his physical body type and throwing ability. He was not drafted for his college output.

The selling point on Jones was completely different: not a great physical talent or productive in college, but a refined product polished by the hands of the guy that gave us Eli - David Cutcliffe.

It turns out they got that completely wrong. Jones's mental speed wasn't there (as Sy warned all of us) and he has a difficult time reading defenses or existing in the pocket. That is EXACTLY how things have borne out. There is little reason to expect a big improvement because unlike Allen Jones isn't a rough diamond; there is no untapped reservoir of talent there.

The only people rewriting history are those making excuses for Jones.

Jones's story with NYG is heading towards the conclusion that has been logical from day one: failure. An untalented (0 star recruit) and unproductive (never made 3rd team All-ACC) college quarterback isn't likely to become a successful NFL quarterback.


Allen was a 0 star recruit, and he started at a Junior College that his cousin got him into. Wyoming form the MWC was his only choice later at a four year school and he managed to make second team MWC one year. That's Mountain West Conference.
He was NEVER a great talent in college, let alone a star like bw would have everyone believe. He had a big friggin arm. He was a boom-bust talent that has boomed the last two years.
RE: RE: RE: If he was  
bw in dc : 6/9/2022 5:40 pm : link
In comment 15728801 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15728776 bw in dc said:


Uh, reminder - Allen was the 7th pick in the draft. It's not like he was taken on day two or three.

And the reason why Allen was taken 7th was because he was a star talent in college. Being a star in terms of production insures nothing in terms of predicting success in the NFL.



No, he was taken 7th because a team loved the raw potential of his size, athletic traits, and big arm...


Right. All of those attributes are the talent parts I was referring to - "...star talent..."

It doesn't matter how many teams passed on him (gee, six). What matters is a smart organization like the Bills recognized Allen's incredible talent, traded up to draft him, and now are set at QB for another decade. And the inept organization we root for decided taking a fungible position player was the smarter move.
RE: RE: MOOPS  
Go Terps : 6/9/2022 5:50 pm : link
In comment 15728832 MOOPS said:
Quote:
In comment 15728807 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Allen WAS a great talent in college. That was the selling point: big guy with mobility and a huge arm but very rough around the edges. He was drafted on spec for his physical body type and throwing ability. He was not drafted for his college output.

The selling point on Jones was completely different: not a great physical talent or productive in college, but a refined product polished by the hands of the guy that gave us Eli - David Cutcliffe.

It turns out they got that completely wrong. Jones's mental speed wasn't there (as Sy warned all of us) and he has a difficult time reading defenses or existing in the pocket. That is EXACTLY how things have borne out. There is little reason to expect a big improvement because unlike Allen Jones isn't a rough diamond; there is no untapped reservoir of talent there.

The only people rewriting history are those making excuses for Jones.

Jones's story with NYG is heading towards the conclusion that has been logical from day one: failure. An untalented (0 star recruit) and unproductive (never made 3rd team All-ACC) college quarterback isn't likely to become a successful NFL quarterback.



Allen was a 0 star recruit, and he started at a Junior College that his cousin got him into. Wyoming form the MWC was his only choice later at a four year school and he managed to make second team MWC one year. That's Mountain West Conference.
He was NEVER a great talent in college, let alone a star like bw would have everyone believe. He had a big friggin arm. He was a boom-bust talent that has boomed the last two years.


I agree that Allen was boom-bust. Huge physical talent that maybe could play, maybe could not. But the huge physical talent was there. That was the appeal.

Now remove that huge physical talent from Allen and what do you have? Daniel Jones.
RE: RE: MOOPS  
bw in dc : 6/9/2022 5:58 pm : link
In comment 15728832 MOOPS said:
Quote:

He was NEVER a great talent in college, let alone a star like bw would have everyone believe. He had a big friggin arm. He was a boom-bust talent that has boomed the last two years.


You do realize that Aaron Rodgers basically had zero D1 offers as well. I think he was offered an opportunity to walk on at Illinois. So Allen is not alone in not getting a D1 opportunity at first.

I said Allen was a star talent. And he absolutely was with the way he threw, moved, ran, and improvised.

Yes, Allen was absolutely high risk, high reward. And a smart team like the Bills thought the talent was absolutely worth the risk and will very likely win a SB because of that decision...

But, really, what player isn't a risk coming into the draft?
.  
Go Terps : 6/9/2022 6:14 pm : link
Before last season I charted the college passing stats of every first round QB since 2011, when the new CBA introduced the rookie wage scale and dramatically changed the way QBs fit into roster construction. I also added in non-first rounders that stuck and made a significant contribution (Russell Wilson, Jimmy Garropolo, etc.) and non-first rounders still in their rookie contracts with a chance to make a significant contribution (Lock, Minshew, etc.). The pool was 49 QBs...the data I could find on Garoppolo was limited and I couldn't track down his AY/A.

When sorted by their college AY/A (this was nearly identical to sorting them by passer rating) Josh Allen was low in the group (39th with 7.7 AY/A), but who was tied for the very worst AY/A with Jake Locker at 6.2?

Daniel Jones.

The signs were all there. The Giants ignored them. Now here we are at 14-35 since we drafted him. Thankfully it will all be over soon.

RE: Allen is better at...  
NINEster : 6/9/2022 6:21 pm : link
In comment 15728316 bw in dc said:
Quote:
everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.

So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.


What could have been... - ( New Window )


Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.

But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.

What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.
RE: RE: The rationalization of Jones's mediocrity knows no bounds  
NINEster : 6/9/2022 6:29 pm : link
In comment 15728793 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15728505 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I wonder what the excuses will be when he's someone else's backup a year from now.



There won't be any excuses at that point. Most fans are pretty rational even if they like to take the wait and see approach.

What's your excuse for Alex Smith or to some extent, Tannehill? Tannehill did show some positive traits before going to Tenn, but most definitely evolved into a better more prolific QB the second he left Miami.

Alex Smith is the guy that no one can explain. You can underrate his career all you want, but there's no doubting he went from a perennial loser to a perennial winner after taking FAR too long to develop, like 6 years.



Alex Smith was an anomaly QB from the respect of how he needed to be spoon fed significantly before playing.

Had he gotten drafted by the Packers instead of the 49ers, he would've sat for a few seasons there and IMO been a clear franchise QB.

What they did for Patrick Mahomes, and what they've done for Trey Lance, he needed 50x more than either of those guys.

He was a first round physical talent that flashed in his second NFL season, but the dysfunction of the team and his shoulder injury put a physical and mental dent on him that more or less kept him from reaching his potential. He wasn't always a game manager, and had deep throwing ability at one point.

But his mental toughness is perhaps the toughest I've ever seen of an NFL QB. When people thought his career was over after that leg break in Washington, I knew a very good chance existed he would return to the NFL.

Lastly his intelligence was up there. He figured out a way to have a winning NFL career as a game manager, which in some ways is very very difficult to do.
Terps  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/9/2022 6:43 pm : link
Lot of work in that. Thanks.

Now take a look at the top and bottom 10 and look at their respective teams rushing yards and rypa

Understand that dynamic and you’ll understand offensive football better. You are also looking at elite WR’s at a lot of those top 10 which translates even more with those teams rushing ability.

RE: RE: RE: The rationalization of Jones's mediocrity knows no bounds  
Spiciest Memelord : 6/9/2022 6:44 pm : link
In comment 15728873 NINEster said:
Quote:
In comment 15728793 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15728505 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I wonder what the excuses will be when he's someone else's backup a year from now.



There won't be any excuses at that point. Most fans are pretty rational even if they like to take the wait and see approach.

What's your excuse for Alex Smith or to some extent, Tannehill? Tannehill did show some positive traits before going to Tenn, but most definitely evolved into a better more prolific QB the second he left Miami.

Alex Smith is the guy that no one can explain. You can underrate his career all you want, but there's no doubting he went from a perennial loser to a perennial winner after taking FAR too long to develop, like 6 years.





Alex Smith was an anomaly QB from the respect of how he needed to be spoon fed significantly before playing.

Had he gotten drafted by the Packers instead of the 49ers, he would've sat for a few seasons there and IMO been a clear franchise QB.

What they did for Patrick Mahomes, and what they've done for Trey Lance, he needed 50x more than either of those guys.

He was a first round physical talent that flashed in his second NFL season, but the dysfunction of the team and his shoulder injury put a physical and mental dent on him that more or less kept him from reaching his potential. He wasn't always a game manager, and had deep throwing ability at one point.

But his mental toughness is perhaps the toughest I've ever seen of an NFL QB. When people thought his career was over after that leg break in Washington, I knew a very good chance existed he would return to the NFL.

Lastly his intelligence was up there. He figured out a way to have a winning NFL career as a game manager, which in some ways is very very difficult to do.


Giants D was treating Smith like SF D was treating Eli in the playoff game. He was game too and hung in there.
RE: Terps  
Go Terps : 6/9/2022 7:02 pm : link
In comment 15728885 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Lot of work in that. Thanks.

Now take a look at the top and bottom 10 and look at their respective teams rushing yards and rypa

Understand that dynamic and you’ll understand offensive football better. You are also looking at elite WR’s at a lot of those top 10 which translates even more with those teams rushing ability.


If you're looking at rushing yards in this day and age I'm not sure you should be speaking like an authority on offensive football. That list is basically every college QB that mattered in the NFL in the past decade prior to this last draft. We drafted one of the very worst on that list sixth overall.

It's important to say this aloud: Daniel Jones has never put together a really good season of high level football. His best season AY/A in six years of college and pro ball is 6.9.

We drafted a bad, untalented player #6 overall. Hoping he'll become a good player is the same as hoping Niko Lalos will become a really NFL starting linebacker. It's not impossible, but the odds on it are very long.

This is what Jones is.
To answer the OP ?...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/9/2022 7:09 pm : link
I suspect he's a good QB, but not the Josh Allen he is in right now in Buffalo.
Terps  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/9/2022 7:09 pm : link
I suggested what to look into regarding those stats. Tell all those HC’s of those in the top 10 how you feel about running the football. Then ask them how they apply to the stat you posted.

Perhaps they’ll take the time to explain offensive football if you don’t believe me.
RE: Terps  
Go Terps : 6/9/2022 7:11 pm : link
In comment 15728899 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
I suggested what to look into regarding those stats. Tell all those HC’s of those in the top 10 how you feel about running the football. Then ask them how they apply to the stat you posted.

Perhaps they’ll take the time to explain offensive football if you don’t believe me.


I'm not going to do your research for you. Have at it.
GT has been on the $ about DJ...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/9/2022 7:14 pm : link
Whether one wants to admit it or not. I hope the kid becomes a stud this fall, but the odds aren't great that that happens, to put it mildly. I doubt he's on the roster this time next season & we all move on.
I don't think he makes the leap he did if he was drafted here  
montanagiant : 6/9/2022 7:14 pm : link
And I don't believe there is any way anyone could say so. Somewhat of an indictment on what we have had the last 4 years.

By the way, if I remember it correctly very few on BBI wanted us to take Josh Allen
RE: RE: Terps  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/9/2022 7:17 pm : link
In comment 15728902 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15728899 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


I suggested what to look into regarding those stats. Tell all those HC’s of those in the top 10 how you feel about running the football. Then ask them how they apply to the stat you posted.

Perhaps they’ll take the time to explain offensive football if you don’t believe me.



I'm not going to do your research for you. Have at it.


I didn’t post a stupid post of stats to make a meaningless point. Tried to point you in a better direction. I understand the position and the variables around it.

Keep up the good work to trash Jones if it pleases you.
RE: RE: Allen is better at...  
bw in dc : 6/9/2022 7:19 pm : link
In comment 15728868 NINEster said:
Quote:
In comment 15728316 bw in dc said:


Quote:


everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.

So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.


What could have been... - ( New Window )



Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.

But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.

What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.


Have you ever watched Daniel Jones in his long three years and been in awe of any play he has made? A play where you said, "JFC, this guy is a special talent and we're lucky to have him..."

I know I have said that about Allen, Mahomes and Herbert in any of their first two years. All QBs, btw, we could have and should have drafted.

I don't see Steve Young. I see John Elway, part II. Young did not have the arm Allen has.
montana.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/9/2022 7:19 pm : link
I don't recall a huge 'Draft Allen' contingent either. And I agree...I think he's probably a good QB if we take him, but not the guy he is in Buffalo. A lot of people don't want to admit it, but so much of success is dependent on where you end up. Is Patrick Mahomes this Patrick Mahomes if he is drafted by the Lions? I'd venture no. He ended up in a perfect situation in KC with a great offense & elite skill position players.
RE: and I know we just can't tolerate  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/9/2022 7:21 pm : link
In comment 15728796 djm said:
Quote:
comparisons to a by-gone era but Phil Simms virtually a complete unknown in College. He put up very very ordinary stats. HE also took SIX years to reach household name territory. The game was different sure, but it's still just football.

Some of you act like it's never happened. It has. That's why teams go down with the ship on so many occasions and again, Jones was here under contract--cutting him now would be the height of ridiculously dumb, even if some of you know more than the experts. Hint, you really don't.

Where this falls flat isn't just in the way the game has evolved, it's in the way that the cap and rookie contract structure have changed the league's approach to young players - especially QBs, because of how expensive they become after their rookie contracts.

In the case of Simms, if he were playing now instead of 40 years ago, based on his first three years, the Giants would probably have picked up his 5th year option, but he would have then missed the entirety of his 4th season due to injury anyway.

Where it becomes interesting is whether Parcells would have felt compelled to play Simms in 1983 rather than benching him in favor of Brunner, since 1983 would have been his last opportunity to evaluate Simms before his contract expired (again, if we apply the current cap/contract framework). That would have meant 5+ games of evaluation instead of relief work in 2 games and a grand total of 13 passes in 1983.

For the sake of argument, let's just assume that Parcells would have handled his QB situation in exactly the same manner as he did back then if he was operating within the current cap/contract landscape. That means that Simms would have had his same first three years, then would have had his 5th year option picked up before his 4th year, only to miss his entire 4th season to injury, and most of his 5th season to injury.

Guess what would have happened next if the current cap/contract landscape existed then? Simms either signs a prove-it deal for 1984 as a FA, or walks. He only got the chance to restore his career in 1984 because the Giants effectively owned his rights pre-FA (and the compensatory penalty for signing FA at that time would have basically made Simms radioactive in 1984 coming off of two injury-plagued seasons).

And essentially, a prove-it contract is what Simms did get after his 5th year (albeit for much less, even comparatively speaking, than what a prove-it contract would look like for a QB in 2022): Simms made $275k in 1984 (reference here, under "How Much is Phil Simms Worth?"), which was about 40% higher than the league average salary for that period (reference here, under "The Big Money"). The average NFL salary for 2021 was $2.8M (reference here); if you want to tell me that DJ is going to re-sign for 40% above that ($3.9M) in 2023, then by all means, be patient. But he's not. He's going to cost multiples of that, even if he has another mediocre year in 2022.

I know you like to reference Simms every time this topic comes up, but that reference doesn't work, because the Giants would have either moved on from Simms after 1983 unless he took a cheap deal to restore his value, or would have at least commenced seeking his replacement even if he had. If Simms had played in the current system and would have commanded a significant pay increase in 1984, it's impossible to say that he ever would have ever even gotten a 6th season with the Giants, but it seems unlikely that he would have.
For the love of God...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/9/2022 7:25 pm : link
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?
RE: montana.  
montanagiant : 6/9/2022 7:25 pm : link
In comment 15728914 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I don't recall a huge 'Draft Allen' contingent either. And I agree...I think he's probably a good QB if we take him, but not the guy he is in Buffalo. A lot of people don't want to admit it, but so much of success is dependent on where you end up. Is Patrick Mahomes this Patrick Mahomes if he is drafted by the Lions? I'd venture no. He ended up in a perfect situation in KC with a great offense & elite skill position players.

Absolutely correct. Much has to do with timing and luck in virtually any career situation.
RE: RE: RE: Allen is better at...  
montanagiant : 6/9/2022 7:26 pm : link
In comment 15728912 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15728868 NINEster said:


Quote:


In comment 15728316 bw in dc said:


Quote:


everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.

So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.


What could have been... - ( New Window )



Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.

But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.

What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.



Have you ever watched Daniel Jones in his long three years and been in awe of any play he has made? A play where you said, "JFC, this guy is a special talent and we're lucky to have him..."

I know I have said that about Allen, Mahomes and Herbert in any of their first two years. All QBs, btw, we could have and should have drafted.

I don't see Steve Young. I see John Elway, part II. Young did not have the arm Allen has.

Jones had a couple of "Wow" plays his first season.
Keep in mind  
Spiciest Memelord : 6/9/2022 8:00 pm : link
Allen looked very much like Prescott in a Cole Beasley led passing attack.
I didn't want Allen either. I wanted them to draft Jackson  
Go Terps : 6/9/2022 8:04 pm : link
I also was on record not wanting to draft Barkley.

That's the thing - there were many picks that would have been really good decisions. They made a horrible decision that was clearly horrible in real time.
RE: For the love of God...  
djm : 6/10/2022 11:39 am : link
In comment 15728922 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?


Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.

I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?


Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?

All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?
You're allowed to conjure up whatever examples or anecdotes  
Jimmy Googs : 6/10/2022 11:53 am : link
you want...go right ahead djm.

That hasn't stopped many posters over the years of putting forth poorly constructed and/or non-compelling positions.
RE: RE: For the love of God...  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/10/2022 12:36 pm : link
In comment 15729397 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15728922 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?



Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.

I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?


Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?

All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?

Because, as I explained at length above, the takeaway of those historical examples is that those late bloomers are not only the exception, but even more importantly, the way that the cap/contract rules have changed means that those guys would have run out of chances much, much earlier.

You can't apply those past examples to the current/future, because there isn't any logical way to factor for salary cap and the extreme rise in veteran QB salaries.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Allen is better at...  
Enzo : 6/10/2022 12:39 pm : link
In comment 15728924 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 15728912 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15728868 NINEster said:


Quote:


In comment 15728316 bw in dc said:


Quote:


everything to be a QB than Jones is. And it isn't even close. He's a transcendent talent.

So, he'd be doing what he's doing in this video, only in a NYG uniform.


What could have been... - ( New Window )



Allen went into Minnesota his rookie year and kicked their ass back when they were a top team and super tough at home.

But I remember the 2019 postseason where he went into NE and couldn't get it done in crunch time. As late as that season, he wasn't close to being seen as a top 5 QB.

What a huge resurgence 2020 onwards. Modern day Steve Young I'd say in that respect.



Have you ever watched Daniel Jones in his long three years and been in awe of any play he has made? A play where you said, "JFC, this guy is a special talent and we're lucky to have him..."

I know I have said that about Allen, Mahomes and Herbert in any of their first two years. All QBs, btw, we could have and should have drafted.

I don't see Steve Young. I see John Elway, part II. Young did not have the arm Allen has.


Jones had a couple of "Wow" plays his first season.

for which team?
RE: RE: For the love of God...  
Go Terps : 6/10/2022 12:55 pm : link
In comment 15729397 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15728922 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?



Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.

I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?


Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?

All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?


Because it doesn't make sense to give a guy that many chances anymore. It makes much more sense to just draft another quarterback. They didn't make as much sense in 1983 because the rules were completely different.

It doesn't even make sense to go as far as the Giants have with Jones. They've put themselves in a position where he almost certainly walks for nothing. The better way to handle it would have been to cut bait after his terrible second year.

That's a lesson to remember when they draft the next guy. If we draft Bryce Young or whomever and he doesn't look great after year two it's time to think about moving him and drafting someone else. There is no sound reason to chase a lost cause.
There s truth to the  
joeinpa : 6/10/2022 12:59 pm : link
Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation

Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.

As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.
RE: There s truth to the  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/10/2022 1:37 pm : link
In comment 15729459 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation

Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.

As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.


I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.

I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.

I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.
RE: RE: RE: For the love of God...  
Scooter185 : 6/10/2022 2:10 pm : link
In comment 15729456 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15729397 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15728922 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


The Phil Simms analogies don't work in today's NFL. How do people not get this by now?



Why? I don't want to hear anecdotal evidence either.

I see posts saying less productive collegiate QBs not only never get drafted high but never end up doing anything in the NFL. This is flat out false. Simms is a real life example why this is false. Also, Alex Smith needed 5-6 years too. Are we not allowed to conjure up examples from that era too?


Even out own Eli Manning went from productive but enigmatic to legendary AFTER his FOURTH year? But now I have to listen to people say QBs can't go from bad to good in the same time frame?

All we have is history to go on. We can't use any prior examples? Why the hell not?



Because it doesn't make sense to give a guy that many chances anymore. It makes much more sense to just draft another quarterback. They didn't make as much sense in 1983 because the rules were completely different.

It doesn't even make sense to go as far as the Giants have with Jones. They've put themselves in a position where he almost certainly walks for nothing. The better way to handle it would have been to cut bait after his terrible second year.

That's a lesson to remember when they draft the next guy. If we draft Bryce Young or whomever and he doesn't look great after year two it's time to think about moving him and drafting someone else. There is no sound reason to chase a lost cause.


Exactly. And Eli signed what at 7/$49MM rookie deal? Does anyone think DJ would take $7MM a year to stay the QB for years 5, 6, and 7? I'm pretty sure that's what TT got
RE: RE: There s truth to the  
Debaser : 6/10/2022 2:33 pm : link
In comment 15729486 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
In comment 15729459 joeinpa said:


Quote:


Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation

Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.

As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.



I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.

I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.

I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.


PAt Shurmur was a desperate moron and a bad NFL head coach. Who really cares?

Shurmur was desperate to draft potential playmakers who had potential to win some games here and now. He had little to know regard for building a team for the long run.

That is why he drafted Barkley instead of Darnold. And that is why he drafted Jones and wanted to bench Eli. He saw other QBs "doing heroic things" and thought ELi who hated running ; would go down from a jersey pull etc. should be benched in favor of someone who uses his head as a battering ram and doesn't bother sliding after a QB draw play.

The only problem is he was probably just as big as some of the linebackers when he was playing Wake Forrest so in Shurm heads view this could work in the NFL. We've quickly discovered that NFL linebackers are bigger than the ones Jones faced in college and the strategy didn't quite work.
RE: RE: There s truth to the  
Jimmy Googs : 6/10/2022 3:43 pm : link
In comment 15729486 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
In comment 15729459 joeinpa said:


Quote:


Idea that talent finds a way to shine. But there’s also some truth to being the in the right situation

Who knows how it would have turned out for Allen as a Giant.

As a fan it s a shame that we didn’t get the chance to find out. Hard to believe Giants had a shot at Allen and Herbert, and took neither.



I thought it was unlikely they were going to draft a QB in 2018. Mara was still shell shocked from the blowback from the Eli benching and did not want that pressure that drafting a QB would bring imv.

I think the Giants were very much interested in Hebert and they had been to several of his games. He did not come out though.

I suspect PS was pushing hard for a QB after his first year with Eli. Really was not a great year to draft one unfortunately but with how quick he got on the field kind of tells me what PS was thinking.


Rank the order of incompetent steps by our former genius of a GM:

*Assessing in early 2018 that Eli could still start/win
*Not properly evaluating available QBs in 2018 draft
*Bypassing all QBs and trade down opportunities to pick a RB overall #2
*Keeping Eli and his salary in place once again in 2019
*Keeping Eli in place and still drafting Jones in Rd 1
*Being duped to draft Jones earlier at #6 instead of #17
*Benching Eli after 2 games for Jones
*Overlooking that Eli and Jones actually need decent OL, WRs and TEs around them to function
*Not putting some valid competition at QB for Jones in 2020 or 2021

just awful...
...  
christian : 6/10/2022 5:47 pm : link
Set aside the economic and structural differences from 40 years ago.

Let's play straight comparison: if Daniel Jones tears his ACL in the pre-season and misses the whole season do you want him back in 2023?

If he's on the roster in 2023, but is rehabbing and doesn't play, do you want him back in 2024?
Josh Allen = Jeff George  
WillVAB : 6/10/2022 8:38 pm : link
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.
RE: Josh Allen = Jeff George  
Go Terps : 6/11/2022 1:56 am : link
In comment 15729717 WillVAB said:
Quote:
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.


Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.

It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...



WTF does Jones have to do with it?  
montanagiant : 6/11/2022 1:59 am : link
Holy shit, how did Jones end up in the discussion?
RE: WTF does Jones have to do with it?  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/11/2022 7:20 am : link
In comment 15729807 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Holy shit, how did Jones end up in the discussion?

You think you can have a hypothetical conversation about drafting a different QB and not have the current QB, who was drafted one year after the QB who is being discussed in the hypothetical scenario, come up in conversation?

Does that seem reasonable in your tiny little brain?
He would be hurt right now  
Carl in CT : 6/11/2022 7:23 am : link
WE WOULD BE NO BETTER AND HIS CONFIDENCE WOULD BE SHOT playing with no line and journeymen wr’s signed off the street.
RE: RE: Josh Allen = Jeff George  
WillVAB : 6/11/2022 11:05 am : link
In comment 15729806 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15729717 WillVAB said:


Quote:


If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.



Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.

It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...




Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.
RE: RE: RE: Josh Allen = Jeff George  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/11/2022 11:17 am : link
In comment 15729867 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 15729806 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15729717 WillVAB said:


Quote:


If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.



Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.

It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...






Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.

Even dumber shit is thinking that the QB chosen by the same GM who built that dumpster fire isn't part of the dumpster fire.
RE: Josh Allen = Jeff George  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2022 11:21 am : link
In comment 15729717 WillVAB said:
Quote:
If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.


You use Jeff George as a comp while suggesting other posters are usually wrong?

chucklehead to the end...
...  
christian : 6/11/2022 11:45 am : link
That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.

Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.

Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.

If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.
Jeff George was also basically a semi-statue back there  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2022 11:51 am : link
He ran for like 300+ yards and 2 TDs his entire career.

That's like about half a season for Josh Allen...
RE: RE: RE: RE: Josh Allen = Jeff George  
WillVAB : 6/11/2022 6:48 pm : link
In comment 15729872 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15729867 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 15729806 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15729717 WillVAB said:


Quote:


If he was drafted by this dysfunctional organization. People here are delusional if they think the success would automatically translate. Not really surprised since most of the vocal posters on this thread are usually wrong.



Easy to say this kind of dumb shit when it's impossible to prove or disprove.

It's easy to prove Jones has sucked, though...






Dumb shit is thinking you can plug and play a QB into a dumpster fire and pontificating the results would be the same.


Even dumber shit is thinking that the QB chosen by the same GM who built that dumpster fire isn't part of the dumpster fire.


What the fuck are you talking about?
RE: ...  
WillVAB : 6/11/2022 6:54 pm : link
In comment 15729886 christian said:
Quote:
That Jeff George comparison is a unique commitment to being wrong. Bravo.

Allen is markedly more durable, and has way more arm and leg talent than Jones. That alone is good enough reason to believe he'd have more success in the same situation.

Furthermore, drafting Allen at 2 or trading back and getting him a few picks later would have exhibited a savvy in scouting and team building the previous bag of arrogance didn't possess.

If the Giants were operated by a manager who picked Allen, it's easy to assume that guy would have done more smart things as well.


This is how simple minded you clowns are. The comparison does not matter. Let’s call him the love child of Ben Roethlisberger and Steve Young. Did people forget how shitty this roster has been and how terrible the team has been run?
WillVAB...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/11/2022 7:02 pm : link
DJ might not have been given the best tools to work with, but he's shown next to nothing that he's a franchise QB.
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