didn't provide what those other 5 criteria are for WR "fault". This seems to be another of their completely subjective "statistics" which explains why so many abhor them.
I don't deny our WRs sucked last year. Bu, this notion of measures of fault is completely made up. Now let's see their made up measure of QB fault and I would expect Jones new the top again. But, that would be equally bogus and a fake stat.
This is actually getting exciting if you think about it.
Fixed the Offensive Line, healthy Saquon, drafted a new WR and TE, new offensive minded Head Coach, and now analytics like this one to help stop incompletions due to the other receivers. It’s all coming together.
There should be no reason why Daniel Jones doesn’t put up one of the single greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history...
His receivers have been at fault for 4 years of college and now 4 years of pros. Apparently, there is no receiver short of Jerry Rice in his prime who can cultivate this talented arm.
His receivers have been at fault for 4 years of college and now 4 years of pros. Apparently, there is no receiver short of Jerry Rice in his prime who can cultivate this talented arm.
If we had Jerry Rice, we'd be hearing how he can't run himself open or some bullshit.
His receivers have been at fault for 4 years of college and now 4 years of pros. Apparently, there is no receiver short of Jerry Rice in his prime who can cultivate this talented arm.
College? Duke has 3 bowl wins in the last 60 years, and DJ was their QB for two of them. Do you expect him to challenge for a natty with Duke?
...I always thought that the NFL should have a stat for WR drops - like how MLB has errors. Unless I am completely unaware, I have never seen an official stat
There should be an official scorer each game that decides if an incompletion is due to the WR (i.e. a drop). If it's an official drop, then it won't factor into the QB's completion percentage.
It would also be useful to know what WR's catch percentage.
I'd prefer that the NFL makes this official, so that fans won't have to muck through PFF's or Football Outsiders' paywall, or rely on data that no one knows how accurate or reliable it is.
Case in point, for WR drops in 2021, NBC Sports says that Ja'Maar Chase had 9, Fox Sports says that he had 11 (and Fox apparently doesn't list drops by WR and only list the top 25). Pro-Football Reference has a lot of this data, but where is the data coming from?
...I always thought that the NFL should have a stat for WR drops - like how MLB has errors. Unless I am completely unaware, I have never seen an official stat
There should be an official scorer each game that decides if an incompletion is due to the WR (i.e. a drop). If it's an official drop, then it won't factor into the QB's completion percentage.
It would also be useful to know what WR's catch percentage.
I'd prefer that the NFL makes this official, so that fans won't have to muck through PFF's or Football Outsiders' paywall, or rely on data that no one knows how accurate or reliable it is.
Case in point, for WR drops in 2021, NBC Sports says that Ja'Maar Chase had 9, Fox Sports says that he had 11 (and Fox apparently doesn't list drops by WR and only list the top 25). Pro-Football Reference has a lot of this data, but where is the data coming from?
Meant to say FoxSports doesn't include drops by RBs. Only WRs and TEs.
overcome a crappy supporting cast, at least to some degree. Jones has yet to show that. This is his last go round. If he doesn't step up, REGARDLESS of circumstances, then time to go elsewhere.
RE: This is actually getting exciting if you think about it.
Fixed the Offensive Line, healthy Saquon, drafted a new WR and TE, new offensive minded Head Coach, and now analytics like this one to help stop incompletions due to the other receivers. It’s all coming together.
There should be no reason why Daniel Jones doesn’t put up one of the single greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history...
Googs, I think you are naïve to suggest "one of the greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history" but your point has merit. Glad to see you pivot so dramatically.
Fixed the Offensive Line, healthy Saquon, drafted a new WR and TE, new offensive minded Head Coach, and now analytics like this one to help stop incompletions due to the other receivers. It’s all coming together.
There should be no reason why Daniel Jones doesn’t put up one of the single greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history...
Correct
Giants’ WRs among most harmed by Daniel Jones incompletions
Fixed the Offensive Line, healthy Saquon, drafted a new WR and TE, new offensive minded Head Coach, and now analytics like this one to help stop incompletions due to the other receivers. It’s all coming together.
There should be no reason why Daniel Jones doesn’t put up one of the single greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history...
Googs, I think you are naïve to suggest "one of the greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history" but your point has merit. Glad to see you pivot so dramatically.
Pivot...how so?
RE: RE: This is actually getting exciting if you think about it.
Fixed the Offensive Line, healthy Saquon, drafted a new WR and TE, new offensive minded Head Coach, and now analytics like this one to help stop incompletions due to the other receivers. It’s all coming together.
There should be no reason why Daniel Jones doesn’t put up one of the single greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history...
Screw the Jones nah-nah back and forth, this is a fact. Easily catchable balls bobbled, or going right through receivers' hands.
This is why I'm so anxious to see Bellinger work his way onto the field. Even if he is only targeted 10 times during the season, he's actually going to catch the damn ball! He drops NOTHING!
Damn, an end zone target who'll actually catch the ball! That's shocking!
I know we need a new QB but just reading on here some posters on this thread -- are they that blind that they couldn't tell our Tight ends and Wide receivers sucked?????????????
So even if our QB sucks -- it's okay to say these other positions sucked too, right?
The comment someone made about "A good Qb manages to overcome a crappy team to some degree . . ."
But to what degree would anyone be happy? You need at least Playoffs, right? What happens if you had someone like DG who was pathetic at everything? What are some of you expecting?????
I’ll say again- after this year say goodbye to Jones but it doesn't mean the other positions didn't suck.
Capt Obvious. This team needs a talent upgrade everywhere. But good QBs make up for deficiencies all the time. Eli has no running game and mediocre to poor OL in 2011. Simms lost all of his receivers during the 1986 season. Collins was down to Shockey and Toomer in 2002. Now coaching made adjustments but the QB had to make it work.
DJ hasn’t shown he has the ability to do that- yet.
Nobody is learning anything new about Daniel Jones
That article and evaluation are lame. It's nothing more than the typical PFF attempt to spin up an evaluation with no explanation of the components or mixer rate.
Anyone who actually read the article, and thinks that's a good defense of Jones is a butthole.
Chris Bisignano from Giants Insider made an interesting point regarding WR this year.
Essentially, everyone looks at Golladay as the #1 WR because he got the big contract. But who was the huge addition the Bills made with Daboll at OC? Stefon Diggs. The Bills wanted Diggs badly and traded a 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th. He's the type of player Daboll likes as the #1 WR. Plays outside and the slot, can move around/exploit mismatches and get YAC. Same deal with Tyreek Hill in KC, and the ideas Kafka's bringing.
Who on the Giants fits that mold?
Not Golladay - Kadarius Toney. Now Diggs and Hill are Pro Bowl WRs but Toney can play the same role. Bisignano felt if Toney could remain healthy, he's in line for a monster year. Hopefully it motivates him to stay on the field - Diggs just signed a 4-year, $104M contract and Hill 4 years, $120M. Toney will be playing in the same type of offense and they will be coming his way with the football.
Eli had a outstanding group of Wrs and a capable TE. The OL while struggling with the run game was pretty good in pass blocking. Eli was in 8. He had TC and Gilbride.
2002 Collins had a very good running game. Shockey was All Pro. Toomer had his best year ever. The OL was above average imv.
Simms in 86 had a all time defense and a physically dominating running game and some guy Bavaro.
Elevating has taken on new meaning. Name some outstanding QBs who went to a Super Bowl or at least playoff teams that did not have some very good talent
to work with? Some combo of OL,,WR, RB, etc seems in place.
Not a big fan of Jones but he was dealt a terrible cast to work with.
Eli had a outstanding group of Wrs and a capable TE. The OL while struggling with the run game was pretty good in pass blocking. Eli was in 8. He had TC and Gilbride.
2002 Collins had a very good running game. Shockey was All Pro. Toomer had his best year ever. The OL was above average imv.
Simms in 86 had a all time defense and a physically dominating running game and some guy Bavaro.
Elevating has taken on new meaning. Name some outstanding QBs who went to a Super Bowl or at least playoff teams that did not have some very good talent
to work with? Some combo of OL,,WR, RB, etc seems in place.
Not a big fan of Jones but he was dealt a terrible cast to work with.
Agreed, as Jones has had a terrible cast and terrible set of circumstances to work with from the day he was drafted. If Judge had a year as an assistant HC and say two years as a college HC before being hired he may have fared well. But that isn't what happened. Shurmur was a "nice guy" and great OC but not a HC.
And DG did him no favors with the talent he NEVER acquired.
Think about this:
-rookie year he was #2 entire camp without first team reps, coming out of Duke who was terrible on offense. He was thrust into the fray and fumbled on the job but his passing stats were solid.
-Year 2 we had covid and no camp and a new HC and system. 0 - 4 was his start and we still were just two drops away from a division title. His receiver drops killed him and that is the premise here! His OL is one of the league's worst and Barkley was hurt.
-year 3 more of the same really with a horrid OL and injuries galore at key posiions.
Jones hasn't had a chance but with a full camp this year he just has to stay away from turnovers early and hope the run game is effective so they can stay close as they learn the systems and perhaps get a cheap win or two.
I see Jones ranking #10 to 15 in the league passing stats this year if we stay healthy at key spots: Galloday, Shepard, Toney, Barkley, Thomas, Glowinski, Neal must stay healthy. Lots of ifs but by mid-season we will know whether we have our QB of the future or not.
I am missing something from the article. What are the other
most notably the receiver’s hands. If the ball hits your hands, then you have to make a play. Between Slayton and Engram last year, that was probably a large portion. Jones throws a nice ball too. Hopefully that’ll turn around this year too with the deletion of Engram and Slayton being pushed down the list to WR#5 or 6.
RE: RE: I am missing something from the article. What are the other
most notably the receiver’s hands. If the ball hits your hands, then you have to make a play. Between Slayton and Engram last year, that was probably a large portion. Jones throws a nice ball too. Hopefully that’ll turn around this year too with the deletion of Engram and Slayton being pushed down the list to WR#5 or 6.
Just because a ball hits the receivers hands, common sense will tell you they shouldn’t all be pinned on the receiver as a drop.
Chick, it’s an asinine article. They are using 6 criteria in addition to drops to measure the harm done by receivers. But they don’t say what they are, how they are weighted, and the mix rate.
It’s another example of PFF being right when it supports someone’s opinion.
Chick, it’s an asinine article. They are using 6 criteria in addition to drops to measure the harm done by receivers. But they don’t say what they are, how they are weighted, and the mix rate.
It’s another example of PFF being right when it supports someone’s opinion.
It's easy to create an article based on metrics when would invent the metrics.
Chick, it’s an asinine article. They are using 6 criteria in addition to drops to measure the harm done by receivers. But they don’t say what they are, how they are weighted, and the mix rate.
It’s another example of PFF being right when it supports someone’s opinion.
Dan Benton should have his head examined writing an article like this with nothing credible to support it.
I do love how he recommends the Giants "clean up this area" at the end of his piece though.
RE: RE: RE: This is actually getting exciting if you think about it.
Fixed the Offensive Line, healthy Saquon, drafted a new WR and TE, new offensive minded Head Coach, and now analytics like this one to help stop incompletions due to the other receivers. It’s all coming together.
There should be no reason why Daniel Jones doesn’t put up one of the single greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history...
Googs, I think you are naïve to suggest "one of the greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history" but your point has merit. Glad to see you pivot so dramatically.
Pivot...how so?
IIRC - You haven't been so optimistic on Jones in the past. Surprised that this article turned things around for you. Still it might be wise to manage your expectations. The best QB season in Giants history is more realistic - but still a bit of a reach.
Capt Obvious. This team needs a talent upgrade everywhere. But good QBs make up for deficiencies all the time. Eli has no running game and mediocre to poor OL in 2011. Simms lost all of his receivers during the 1986 season. Collins was down to Shockey and Toomer in 2002. Now coaching made adjustments but the QB had to make it work.
DJ hasn’t shown he has the ability to do that- yet.
I still don't know if DJ is good, bad, or in between. But I DO know that, in the years you cited, Eli and Collins had been playing in the NFL for twice as long as DJ.
Does anyone really think Darnold would have been good with fewer drops? And Herbert led the league in dropped passes (if not with the highest % of drops), and he did OK.
No one is arguing that Jones had a stellar supporting cast, but at some point, you have to rise above it. He’ll get every opportunity this year, let’s see what he does with it.
It is a fantastic song!
I don't deny our WRs sucked last year. Bu, this notion of measures of fault is completely made up. Now let's see their made up measure of QB fault and I would expect Jones new the top again. But, that would be equally bogus and a fake stat.
There should be no reason why Daniel Jones doesn’t put up one of the single greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history...
College? Duke has 3 bowl wins in the last 60 years, and DJ was their QB for two of them. Do you expect him to challenge for a natty with Duke?
There should be an official scorer each game that decides if an incompletion is due to the WR (i.e. a drop). If it's an official drop, then it won't factor into the QB's completion percentage.
It would also be useful to know what WR's catch percentage.
I'd prefer that the NFL makes this official, so that fans won't have to muck through PFF's or Football Outsiders' paywall, or rely on data that no one knows how accurate or reliable it is.
Case in point, for WR drops in 2021, NBC Sports says that Ja'Maar Chase had 9, Fox Sports says that he had 11 (and Fox apparently doesn't list drops by WR and only list the top 25). Pro-Football Reference has a lot of this data, but where is the data coming from?
There should be an official scorer each game that decides if an incompletion is due to the WR (i.e. a drop). If it's an official drop, then it won't factor into the QB's completion percentage.
It would also be useful to know what WR's catch percentage.
I'd prefer that the NFL makes this official, so that fans won't have to muck through PFF's or Football Outsiders' paywall, or rely on data that no one knows how accurate or reliable it is.
Case in point, for WR drops in 2021, NBC Sports says that Ja'Maar Chase had 9, Fox Sports says that he had 11 (and Fox apparently doesn't list drops by WR and only list the top 25). Pro-Football Reference has a lot of this data, but where is the data coming from?
Meant to say FoxSports doesn't include drops by RBs. Only WRs and TEs.
Actually, it looks like the NFL doesn't source from them any longer.
There should be no reason why Daniel Jones doesn’t put up one of the single greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history...
Googs, I think you are naïve to suggest "one of the greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history" but your point has merit. Glad to see you pivot so dramatically.
There should be no reason why Daniel Jones doesn’t put up one of the single greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history...
Correct
Quote:
Fixed the Offensive Line, healthy Saquon, drafted a new WR and TE, new offensive minded Head Coach, and now analytics like this one to help stop incompletions due to the other receivers. It’s all coming together.
There should be no reason why Daniel Jones doesn’t put up one of the single greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history...
Googs, I think you are naïve to suggest "one of the greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history" but your point has merit. Glad to see you pivot so dramatically.
Pivot...how so?
Quote:
Fixed the Offensive Line, healthy Saquon, drafted a new WR and TE, new offensive minded Head Coach, and now analytics like this one to help stop incompletions due to the other receivers. It’s all coming together.
There should be no reason why Daniel Jones doesn’t put up one of the single greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history...
Correct
Yep, All Pro or bust...
This is why I'm so anxious to see Bellinger work his way onto the field. Even if he is only targeted 10 times during the season, he's actually going to catch the damn ball! He drops NOTHING!
Damn, an end zone target who'll actually catch the ball! That's shocking!
Our Offensive Line sucked.
Our WR's sucked.
Our RB's sucked.
Our Tight Ends sucked.
So even if our QB sucks -- it's okay to say these other positions sucked too, right?
The comment someone made about "A good Qb manages to overcome a crappy team to some degree . . ."
But to what degree would anyone be happy? You need at least Playoffs, right? What happens if you had someone like DG who was pathetic at everything? What are some of you expecting?????
I’ll say again- after this year say goodbye to Jones but it doesn't mean the other positions didn't suck.
Quote:
I wonder if we will get any new and exciting takes on Mr Jones.
It is a fantastic song!
You try so hard but they....just don't understand
DJ hasn’t shown he has the ability to do that- yet.
Anyone who actually read the article, and thinks that's a good defense of Jones is a butthole.
Enjoy.
Quote:
I wonder if we will get any new and exciting takes on Mr Jones.
It is a fantastic song!
I too wanna be Bob Dylan.
Essentially, everyone looks at Golladay as the #1 WR because he got the big contract. But who was the huge addition the Bills made with Daboll at OC? Stefon Diggs. The Bills wanted Diggs badly and traded a 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th. He's the type of player Daboll likes as the #1 WR. Plays outside and the slot, can move around/exploit mismatches and get YAC. Same deal with Tyreek Hill in KC, and the ideas Kafka's bringing.
Who on the Giants fits that mold?
Not Golladay - Kadarius Toney. Now Diggs and Hill are Pro Bowl WRs but Toney can play the same role. Bisignano felt if Toney could remain healthy, he's in line for a monster year. Hopefully it motivates him to stay on the field - Diggs just signed a 4-year, $104M contract and Hill 4 years, $120M. Toney will be playing in the same type of offense and they will be coming his way with the football.
Enjoy.
Just classic. You know how many threads guys like you argued that they should be good, in general, before the season started?
And then just were pissed off by October because they sucked and didn’t back up your posts?
About a thousand...
2002 Collins had a very good running game. Shockey was All Pro. Toomer had his best year ever. The OL was above average imv.
Simms in 86 had a all time defense and a physically dominating running game and some guy Bavaro.
Elevating has taken on new meaning. Name some outstanding QBs who went to a Super Bowl or at least playoff teams that did not have some very good talent
to work with? Some combo of OL,,WR, RB, etc seems in place.
Not a big fan of Jones but he was dealt a terrible cast to work with.
2002 Collins had a very good running game. Shockey was All Pro. Toomer had his best year ever. The OL was above average imv.
Simms in 86 had a all time defense and a physically dominating running game and some guy Bavaro.
Elevating has taken on new meaning. Name some outstanding QBs who went to a Super Bowl or at least playoff teams that did not have some very good talent
to work with? Some combo of OL,,WR, RB, etc seems in place.
Not a big fan of Jones but he was dealt a terrible cast to work with.
And DG did him no favors with the talent he NEVER acquired.
Think about this:
-rookie year he was #2 entire camp without first team reps, coming out of Duke who was terrible on offense. He was thrust into the fray and fumbled on the job but his passing stats were solid.
-Year 2 we had covid and no camp and a new HC and system. 0 - 4 was his start and we still were just two drops away from a division title. His receiver drops killed him and that is the premise here! His OL is one of the league's worst and Barkley was hurt.
-year 3 more of the same really with a horrid OL and injuries galore at key posiions.
Jones hasn't had a chance but with a full camp this year he just has to stay away from turnovers early and hope the run game is effective so they can stay close as they learn the systems and perhaps get a cheap win or two.
I see Jones ranking #10 to 15 in the league passing stats this year if we stay healthy at key spots: Galloday, Shepard, Toney, Barkley, Thomas, Glowinski, Neal must stay healthy. Lots of ifs but by mid-season we will know whether we have our QB of the future or not.
I can guess maybe things like ran the wrong route or slips but really don’t know how PFF would know things like the former.
Sorry if this was addressed above but share the info if any of you have it.
I can guess maybe things like ran the wrong route or slips but really don’t know how PFF would know things like the former.
Sorry if this was addressed above but share the info if any of you have it.
You're not missing anything. PFF doesn’t reveal what these other mystery factors are and the frequency they occurred.
Anyone who read that article and came away thinking they know more about the Giants offense is either lying or insane.
Quote:
factors assessed by PFF that lead to receiver incompletions other than just pure drops?
I can guess maybe things like ran the wrong route or slips but really don’t know how PFF would know things like the former.
Sorry if this was addressed above but share the info if any of you have it.
You're not missing anything. PFF doesn’t reveal what these other mystery factors are and the frequency they occurred.
Anyone who read that article and came away thinking they know more about the Giants offense is either lying or insane.
Thanks. That’s ridiculous if that is their position or if the author of the article wants any credibility in his statements.
Just because a ball hits the receivers hands, common sense will tell you they shouldn’t all be pinned on the receiver as a drop.
What are the other number of factors Simms?
It’s another example of PFF being right when it supports someone’s opinion.
Many of the passers at the top of this list are not good quarterbacks, and that’s a notable takeaway in and of itself.
Indeed.
It’s another example of PFF being right when it supports someone’s opinion.
It's easy to create an article based on metrics when would invent the metrics.
It’s another example of PFF being right when it supports someone’s opinion.
Dan Benton should have his head examined writing an article like this with nothing credible to support it.
I do love how he recommends the Giants "clean up this area" at the end of his piece though.
Quote:
In comment 15735625 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Fixed the Offensive Line, healthy Saquon, drafted a new WR and TE, new offensive minded Head Coach, and now analytics like this one to help stop incompletions due to the other receivers. It’s all coming together.
There should be no reason why Daniel Jones doesn’t put up one of the single greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history...
Googs, I think you are naïve to suggest "one of the greatest seasons as a QB in NFL history" but your point has merit. Glad to see you pivot so dramatically.
Pivot...how so?
IIRC - You haven't been so optimistic on Jones in the past. Surprised that this article turned things around for you. Still it might be wise to manage your expectations. The best QB season in Giants history is more realistic - but still a bit of a reach.
DJ hasn’t shown he has the ability to do that- yet.
I still don't know if DJ is good, bad, or in between. But I DO know that, in the years you cited, Eli and Collins had been playing in the NFL for twice as long as DJ.
No one is arguing that Jones had a stellar supporting cast, but at some point, you have to rise above it. He’ll get every opportunity this year, let’s see what he does with it.