I know a lot of us are not believers in Daniel Jones, me included. He is being given this coming season to lead the team - there's no commitment from the FO being given - and no back hand either. He has been given what appears to be a better Oline and Oline depth with a new Right Tackle Neal, Center Feliciano, and R Guard Glowinski, heck you could argue that Max Garcia is a better back up than any back up and half the starters last year, and there are a few Olineman that may crack the back ups potentially better than him in Ezeudu and McKethan. Saquon will be there to start. He's getting a few new weapons in Robinson, Breida, Bellinger, and James, and they really haven't taken away any weapons from him as Golladay, Toney, and Shepard appear to be returning. Head Trip Engram is gone.
So with all that, a new Head Coach and OC who are Heavy Offensive gurus from high flying winning programs, What does Daniel Jones need to do, or show you, this season to convince you that he should be the NY Giants QB?
No more excuses
Bottom line, he has to start making plays to win games instead of just being a guy who needs someone around him to make a play.
The likelihood of that happening is very small. My guess is the Giants win four or five games next year, and waive goodbye to many veterans, including Jones, Barkley, and Shepard, and maybe even Golladay next offseason. Roster turnover will be even more intense next offseason as the salary cap constraints that hamstrung Schoen this year begin to loosen.
Right now when Daniel Jones drops backs to pass in big spot, I expect him to fail.
I want to feel like, if we are down by 7 and have some time on the clock, the other team fucked up.
I am a galaxy away from that feeling currently.
1) Be a far more consistent and productive player in terms of getting the Offense into the end zone. The Offense needs to be putting up 25 ppg with him as the starting QB.
AND
2) Not going say a minimum amount of wins, but Jones needs to show a handful of examples (maybe 4-5) where he can put the team on his back and lead them to 4th qtr victories or at least take the lead when he leaves the field for the last time.
The first will show me he can lead a productive Offense and the second will at least begin to convince me he at least has the makeup of a winning QB.
-or-
2) Be a backup QB for the Giants
Stay healthy
If he's going to throw more passes, the turnovers need to stay down.
Score more points.
That to me is not enough. As an example, the Giants putting up a record of 9-8 with Jones as the starting QB where they still put up less than 20 points per game is simply not enough.
As happy (surprised) as I would be the team won 9 games, I would still be shopping for a new QB in 2023.
To me.
“I’m watching Unitas,” he said, “and the velocity was not there. I said to Milt, ‘Can we win with him?’ And he said, ‘Pay attention to what I’m going to tell you.’ He said, ‘You evaluate a quarterback on his ability to take the team down the field in the fourth quarter – especially with a championship on the line – and into the end zone.’ And I will never forget that. I always look for that. - Accorsi
Stats? It's less about that. You want to see 2-1 TD to INT, but the TDs have to be at least in the 20s. And STOP the fumbles.
30 TDs
10 INTs
5 Fumbles
300 rushing yards
62% completion
That's 75% of his win total for his career, so far!
Be significantly better than any of the alternatives, on the field.
Daniel Jones will never be anything close to Eli Manning
He needs to play 15 healthy games, account for 30 TDs and fewer than 15 turnovers — and the Giants need to be above .500.
You can’t give a guy 30M+ a year without a season like that on his belt.
If the cast falters — then what do you do with Jones in 2023?
Im surprised how few people truly acknowledge that.
I am not a DO IT ANYWAYZ guy at the NFL level. So much success/failure is circumstances and Jones has been in the wrong place at the wrong time. We’ll see if he can salvage his career this year, on paper this is easily the best circumstance he’s had.
His fumbling improved from his rookie year. He needs a supporting cast to get to the next level. He isn't "Elite 8" but I think he can be a #9 - 12 type which can take you to a SB but only with help and support.
So Jones doesn't need to do anything himself?
So we have the current roster of players (prior to cutdowns) right now. Is that a semi-competent supporting cast in your opinion?
Im surprised how few people truly acknowledge that
I think all the posters who couldn’t see that for the last four years got embarrassed and stopped posting on BBI.
The key question is the odds the former management got virtually every decision wrong, yet somehow got Daniel Jones right.
His fumbling improved from his rookie year. He needs a supporting cast to get to the next level. He isn't "Elite 8" but I think he can be a #9 - 12 type which can take you to a SB but only with help and support.
Be the reason we win might take a couple of years.
Be the reason we don't lose - should happen a lot sooner. But, what do they do if he has a good season this year and the Giants still finish with 4-5 wins?
I think we are still 2 drafts/off-seasons away from 10+ wins.
That's what I'd like to see.
A "middling season" could actually put us in a playoff hunt. Would that suck?
I do not think Jones will get us to that mark but I'm not really set on it either. 9 or 10 wins means we are likely in the playoffs and that would absolutely not suck. I'll let the GM figure out what to do with him in this scenario.
30 TDs
10 INTs
5 Fumbles
300 rushing yards
62% completion
Statistically that would put him firmly outside of the top 10 in today's NFL. That completion percentage would be bottom 10.
Pass friendly league, 17 games...those numbers just don't cut it for a QB entering his 4th year.
I like Jones, I hope he can become the guy, I doubt that he will, but I’m rooting for him
I’m neutral on what happens after 2022, but make no mistake, It’d be the best thing for the organization if he turned into the guy.
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4000 yards
30 TDs
10 INTs
5 Fumbles
300 rushing yards
62% completion
Statistically that would put him firmly outside of the top 10 in today's NFL. That completion percentage would be bottom 10.
Pass friendly league, 17 games...those numbers just don't cut it for a QB entering his 4th year.
That's ridiculous. A 3:1 TD ratio would put him in upper tier company yet the completion % is what you'd fixate on? The above season would almost guarantee the playoffs. Of the 9 QB's to throw 30+ TD's only 4 had a 3:1 TD ratio or better.
Jones has one year and then we need to make a decision to re-sign him. Be realistic about what that year would need to be like for us to cut a check for him to stick around.
Kirk Cousins isn't someone you pay top dollar for, but you can win with his skillset. He just hasn't put it together when it matters (happens to even better QB's too).
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The sooner he's out of here, the better. nothing short of a Kurt Warner type 1999 season will save his ass here. What I don't wanna see is a midling type of season. Enough already.
A "middling season" could actually put us in a playoff hunt. Would that suck?
I do not think Jones will get us to that mark but I'm not really set on it either. 9 or 10 wins means we are likely in the playoffs and that would absolutely not suck. I'll let the GM figure out what to do with him in this scenario.
The goal is to win championships. Herbert can do that. Jones is no Herbert. Time to dump this chicken dinner. DJ is what Parcells would classify as a "hold the fort" type of player until the cavalry arrives. The cavalry being one of the QBs in next year's draft.
A middling type season could easily be 7 or 8 wins too with decent stats. This guy needs to go. He can't see the game like a top level QB does. He gets hurt and fumbles the ball away. Enough.
He’s pretty durable, will hover around .500, and get you into the playoffs every 3 or 4 years.
He’s accurate and doesn’t turn the ball over. He’s a pretty good QB — it’s a comp Jones would need to take a couple of steps up to reach.
Kirk Cousins isn't someone you pay top dollar for, but you can win with his skillset. He just hasn't put it together when it matters (happens to even better QB's too).
I tend to agree with this stance....If all he'll ever be is a Cousins, I'll take it. We don't have a pipeline of QB's running to play for our team. So I'd take top 15-20 QB play until we "hit" on the next QB (which could be as soon as April 2023).
If he meets/exceeds those stats, he's probably worth keeping around for another couple or three years (yes, pay him in 2023).
Hoping he's not a Brown, Kanell, Graham. But even Simms/Hostetler had success as mid tier QB's. Point being, you can win without elite QB play.....just look at Trent Dilfer's, Brad Johnson's out there
He’s pretty durable, will hover around .500, and get you into the playoffs every 3 or 4 years.
He’s accurate and doesn’t turn the ball over. He’s a pretty good QB — it’s a comp Jones would need to take a couple of steps up to reach.
Exactly. The OP is asking what we need to "believe" as in re-sign and forgo draftin a QB in what might be a loaded QB year. "Might be Kirk Cousins someday" doesn't do it for me.
He's a goner.
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The sooner he's out of here, the better. nothing short of a Kurt Warner type 1999 season will save his ass here. What I don't wanna see is a midling type of season. Enough already.
A "middling season" could actually put us in a playoff hunt. Would that suck?
I do not think Jones will get us to that mark but I'm not really set on it either. 9 or 10 wins means we are likely in the playoffs and that would absolutely not suck. I'll let the GM figure out what to do with him in this scenario.
As opposed to other scenarios where BBI decides?
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Cousins is the modern floor for an OK-to-good QB — in basically all respects.
He’s pretty durable, will hover around .500, and get you into the playoffs every 3 or 4 years.
He’s accurate and doesn’t turn the ball over. He’s a pretty good QB — it’s a comp Jones would need to take a couple of steps up to reach.
Exactly. The OP is asking what we need to "believe" as in re-sign and forgo draftin a QB in what might be a loaded QB year. "Might be Kirk Cousins someday" doesn't do it for me.
Nor should it.
That is like going for it on 4th Down once or twice and still eventually punting the ball away...
He’s plenty fast in a straight line but when I watch him in the pocket - he looks less mobile than Eli did running which is odd.
I know people shit on Golladay and Toney - but they are more than capable WRs who can make plays when called upon.
You're not going to field goal the league to death. Sure, you can have 2-3 games a year where your defense holds Carolina to 3 points or Philly to 7 points or scores for you as they did against Vegas, but you're not going to get far in the NFL in 2022.
Perfect way to summarize Jones career is that long drive against Pittsburgh in 2020. Great drive, moved the ball very well and threw that infuriating interception and the Giants walk away with NOTHING.
Just show improvement. It will take 2-3 years for this rebuild and for Daboll and Schoen to put their stamp on this team
You're not going to field goal the league to death. Sure, you can have 2-3 games a year where your defense holds Carolina to 3 points or Philly to 7 points or scores for you as they did against Vegas, but you're not going to get far in the NFL in 2022.
Perfect way to summarize Jones career is that long drive against Pittsburgh in 2020. Great drive, moved the ball very well and threw that infuriating interception and the Giants walk away with NOTHING.
What does any of this have to do with the OPs question?
Anyway, 2-3 year rebuild? Teams have proven you can turn things around very quickly, so again, we're doing this same preparation thing where we are in denial the Giants will not be good?
"It takes time"
Kirk Cousins isn't someone you pay top dollar for, but you can win with his skillset. He just hasn't put it together when it matters (happens to even better QB's too).
And that's the point, really, when it comes to QB contracts. Kirk Cousins being paid at his actual skill level would allow the Vikings 1-2 more blue chip players (or 4-5 red chip players) that might have gotten them over the hump of mediocrity.
Anyway, 2-3 year rebuild? Teams have proven you can turn things around very quickly, so again, we're doing this same preparation thing where we are in denial the Giants will not be good?
"It takes time"
You didn’t answer the question. You saw a Jones thread and salivated at the opportunity to complain and couldn’t even muster up the balls to forego that and answer a pretty simple question. I guess you also glossed over the many times I’ve stated I don’t think he can hit that mark.
Take Jones and the Giants out of the equation. What’s a good season for an NFL QB?
It’s really not that simple.
I've said that many times I don't think Jones would even be a good QB (or the same QB) on another team. Pointing out that the team doesn't come away with TDs in the redzone under Jones is a problem with you? My God.
I want Jones gone. Guess what? I also answered OP's in this very thread, it was my first post. I was in the "wait until 2020 to draft Herbert" camp.
Take Jones out of the equation and what? I'd rather it be Herbert. But I might go with Dalton over Jones, which is sad.
He does it just to piss me off haha
Number two - Score points... average at least 24 pts per game. Throw for 4000 yards and 30 TDs at least.
Number three - win games... tough to say how many because we really don't know what this team is yet but he needs to start winning more of the close games.
Let's hear what it would take
don't get tangled up
Let's hear what it would take
don't get tangled up
I tried, it ain’t gonna happen
You just cannot make a financial commitment to a guy who can’t produce ~30 TDs and a winning season.
If Jones is a Giant in 2023 he’s very likely to be on 30.5M franchise tender or a 30M AAV deal.
Imagine investing in a guy who has never led a winning season or produced points like a top third QB.
Part of me wishes you were close to being right and I could see a scenario where the Giants were actually close to sniffing the playoffs. Jones could be good for filling in for a game or 2 (17 games now) but that's his ceiling.
Oh yeah. Forgot my platitudes.
"He's a good kid"
Phenomenal point. I agree with this statement.
So, basically, do the impossible.
He’s gone after this year.
Back up QB’s aren’t as nitpicked. That’s DJ’s future. This is his last rodeo as a starting QB in the NFL.
That seems like a pretty decent bar for the Giants to do the same.
Be the reason we win might take a couple of years.
Unfortunately, at least in a lot of fans' minds, his window of opportunity is this year. Anything he has to show, he's got to do it right now. What is really curious is whether the staff feels this way too. I imagine they do.
I think he can do it and I am half expecting him to come through based on the setup he seems to be getting. Finally we seem to be doing right by our QB. Now he has to do his part and be the legit starting, caliber better than average, even top 10 if he has it anywhere in him QB. Right now.
I would love nothing more than to see Jones make some big time plays in big spots, lead the team to wins, not screw things up when it's all on him, and the team threatening if not making the playoffs. That would be so sweet.
But I'll stick with my simple answer. Don't lose games, do win games. Simple as that.
Anyone that wants a stat, how about this one - be awarded at least 10 game balls. That's a guy who is doing his part and is a winner more than he is a loser.
2. Via 1...Show that he can occasionally make a play even when the play looks like it isn't there
3. Show that he can throw touchdowns
2. Via 1...Show that he can occasionally make a play even when the play looks like it isn't there
3. Show that he can throw touchdowns
If Barkley some how becomes the first guy to reach 20 rushing TDs in 15+ seasons, and Jones contributes 25 — the Giants would need another 3-5 TDs and 25-30 FGs to be a middle tier offense.
Not that there's anything magical about 10, but its definitely around the minimum standard to have a contender
Mahomes
Rodgers
Brady
Allen
Wilson
Burrow
Stafford
Herbert
That's 8. To be in the top 10 Jones needs to be better than most of - Dak, Kyler, Lamar, Carr, Cousins, Tannehill, Watson and anyone else im forgetting.
That's a long way to climb for a guy whos trying to be better than Davis Mills, Wentz, Tua, Mayfield, Hurts, etc.
If Jones by some miracle is legit top 10, I would franchise him and make him do it again. And if he did it again, I'd sign him to a big deal. Thats the bar.
Me too. I'm disappointed he's still our problem
if he goes 9-8 and stops with the fumbling maybe he gets another year
I am not optimistic
The state of this team is not such that a superstar QB will automatically make us superbowl contenders.
The notion of "put the team on your back" is bullshit. The best a QB can do is doing his part to win. Read the defense. Make the calls. Make the throws. That isn't putting the team on your back. That's doing your job. beyond that, a QB can't make WRs better. He can't make a RB hit the hole. He can't make the OL open a hole. All he can do is read and set a play.
What DJ needs to do is show he can read, set, and execute his part. Sans some magical season, results wise, he could do everything he needs to, and some of you will refuse to see it.
For me, he needs to show he is part of the solution, not part of the problem. Not show he is on his way to being part of the solution, but actually be a part. Very few, if any, QBs are the entire solution.
Not bird dog his primary receiver
Sense the pocket collapsing
Move and throw accurately on the run
Not fumble
Throw accurately
We went from dreams of him being Kirk Cousins to now Tom Brady overnight!
Lol. Nice.
That's it.
I'm with you.
>30 TDs
<15 INTs
10+ Wins
>30 TDs
<15 INTs
10+ Wins
What do you think you'd get for him in return?
A punter?
62.4% completions
27 passing TD, 1 rushing TD
7 INTs
TD:INT 3.85:1
I want to see Jones get top 8 yards and a Y/A 7.5+ to make me consider rolling with him in 2023 and beyond.
Eli Manning?
I'm not sure there needs to be a specific number of yards or TD's.
He's got to complete at least 65% of his passes.
I really don't think Jones is the long-term solution here. But, if he totals 30+ passing/rushing TD's, completes over 65% a clip and the Giants are an average-at-worst offense or anything above average, I'd reconsider my current stance.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bad offensive line.
He did cut down in recent years but the turnovers he was guilty of were fatal blows to drives.
(See: Pittsburgh 2020, LA Rams 2020, Denver 2021)
I DO think he had good games the Giants lost too ...
The "Engram drop game" against the Eagles and the game against the Fart Bombs or Football Team or BDSMers, or whatever the hell they were called last year.
Number two - Score points... average at least 24 pts per game. Throw for 4000 yards and 30 TDs at least.
Number three - win games... tough to say how many because we really don't know what this team is yet but he needs to start winning more of the close games.
Good list. Your numbers are reasonable, but the numbers don't matter as much to me if the wins are there. I would like to see some 4th quarter wins/clutch. Sometimes it takes that to get over the hump for a young QB.
Much improved 2-minute offense
Much better in the red zone
Stay on the field, don't get hurt again
Show that he can progress through reads quickly
Show that he can put the team on his back and win
Win a least the first round of the playoffs
He has had too many excuses for too long.
His first4 game of the year... I don't expect him to produce like that all season but close to that level would certainly make me a believer. Only the low volume of TDs stand out.
Projecting his first 4 games over 17 you get:
408/612 for 66.7%
5,032 yards passing with only 4 INTs.
Only negative is the last of TDs- projected 17
That's a projection based on 4 actual games to start last year. Not funny stats.
Those 4 games - with fewer yards but more TDs - have to be what he brings all season. I am a Jones skeptic, was more of a skeptic before last year but I liked those first 4 games. He needs to bring that for a season.
His first4 game of the year... I don't expect him to produce like that all season but close to that level would certainly make me a believer. Only the low volume of TDs stand out.
Projecting his first 4 games over 17 you get:
408/612 for 66.7%
5,032 yards passing with only 4 INTs.
Only negative is the last of TDs- projected 17
That's a projection based on 4 actual games to start last year. Not funny stats.
Those 4 games - with fewer yards but more TDs - have to be what he brings all season. I am a Jones skeptic, was more of a skeptic before last year but I liked those first 4 games. He needs to bring that for a season.
*** Precidiction *** News Flash *** 17 TDs *** If Jones only throws 17 TDs this season *** News Flash *** He will be lynched
Nothing short of Jones having a great season statistically in the top 5-8 in every key metric - QBR, YPA, AY/A, TDs, completion %, PPG - convinces me he's worth keeping in 2023.
Burrow got there in year 2. This isn't necessarily true.
If you get the right guy, you don't need to wait years and years any longer. Those days are gone.
Bottom line, he has to start making plays to win games instead of just being a guy who needs someone around him to make a play.
^^THIS^^
- John Mara
QBs come in and make an immediate impact now. Combined with resetting the QB salary by means of the rookie contract, short of an all time great season it makes no sense to keep Jones after '22.
A rookie QB will be better and cheaper
If he can't do it and do it well, it will be time to move on and give another QB a chance. There's no reason to pay a suspect QB a market rate deal if there's little sign of big things to come.
Play within the scheme.
And as the season progresses go downfield more and more.
I think he has most of the skills required to be a very good QB just not elite 8 that many speak to all the time. He doesn't have the arm and hasn't shown the pocket presence to do what say a Wilson, Mahomes or Rodgers can do but he does enough things well to win you games and get you to the promised land IF he is protected and supported with a run game.
His first four games are pre-season and his next four are his "evaluation" period. You either go forward with him next year or you draft a QB. I don't see UFA as an option. The cap may be part of the decision UNLESS he shows he is the guy without question.