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This article lays out the pro Daniel Jones argument

D HOS : 6/20/2022 9:44 pm
No idea who Nolan Murt is, but he does some analysis of QB hits vs misses and lays out pretty well the pro Daniel Jones argument (or more generally, the "no qb could succeed here" argument) even while this article classifies Jones himself in the "jury still out" category.

I believe in this approach, summarized below (the article goes into a lot more detail).

Perhaps the counter point would be that this is legacy thinking and that in today's game, basketball on turf, you need to identify that superior quick minded, quick reaction agile athlete in the point guard QB position whose natural gifts can succeed right away, no matter how terrible the surroundings are.

I get that counter point, but I would say that those QB's are too rare to plan for one.

If the factors claimed for the QB's in this article are accurate and not subjective, and from the limited I know about these other QB situations, they seem to be pretty accurate, it does appear to support the conclusion that first developing a good environment, then making the right draft selection at the right time (and subsequent handling of the player) are a surer path to a "good" QB than hoping to find that rare "can win no matter what" QB. Seems kind of obvious to me.

Also, look at the factors listed for the QB's classified as "hits". Say what you want about DJ's talent, but did he have any of those factors at all outside of his first year? Even if one grants that there are talent differences, look at all of the advantages those successful QB's had. Now look at the factors for the unsuccessful ones. Outside of injury, it's pretty stark, the difference. The Giants lately offer more of the factors of the unsuccessful QB's than the successful ones.

Makes "no QB could succeed here" seem pretty on point. Given that, do we point at DJ or the team as the problem with the QB position and the offense in general, ultimately wins vs losses.

Think back to Shoen's comments on evaluating QB's from outside your system - for bad plays you can't really say when and if the QB is to blame vs other players vs the play call vs the offense, because you just don't know what was supposed to happen.

Combine those two points of view and honestly, we don't know what we have in DJ at all, other than little hints here and there - both good and bad. Therefore as we've all been saying, this is his audition - this is his true test.

Quote:

The two-phase quest begins with the development environment’s careful construction, its own process that begins a year or two before the quarterback enters the building. It involves identifying the right staff to develop the quarterback, weaponizing and fortifying the offense with skill position and offensive line talent and preparing to adapt the system to match the skillset of the quarterback.

The selection made in the draft is not the end of the quest, but the beginning of its second phase, the developmental phase, another multi-year process during which the collaboration of the three component themes within the development environment is of utmost importance. As demonstrated above, all three of the component themes coexist in symbiotic relationships. They work together. They feed off each other.

If this two-phase quest is done correctly, the odds of hitting on this paramount pick, the drafting of the franchise quarterback, are significantly increased. After all, as this research indicates, the hits aren’t made in the selection process; the hits are made in the development process. Even the most promising young mango tree in the world requires a confluence of factors to reach its fruit-bearing potential.


"the hits aren’t made in the selection process; the hits are made in the development process."

We have had an awful development process.

It seems like the new staff would agree with this philosophy and maybe are trying to compress that into the one offseason they have with Jones.

I guess the take away for me here is, if Jones doesn't earn his spot after this season, it does seem like we are building a good environment for any credible QB talent to come in and be at his best. That's really good for the Giants' future.


The Secret to Finding a Franchise Quarterback: Part 1 - ( New Window )
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So, let's sum up  
HomerJones45 : 6/21/2022 2:04 pm : link
Sports reporter most never heard of says Jones sucks and Taylor is better- a lying, know-nothing shit stirrer without facts, reason or logic who should be ignored.

Sports reporter no one ever heard about says Jones is good and it was a bad team- a prescient, logical, and excellent talent evaluator who we all should attend.

Forget all other previously proffered excuses, it's Jerry Reese's fault going back to 2012 and Eli Manning's fault that Jones sucks.


The excuse-mongering for Daniel Jones beggars the imagination.
RE: So, let's sum up  
GNewGiants : 6/21/2022 2:07 pm : link
In comment 15737234 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Sports reporter most never heard of says Jones sucks and Taylor is better- a lying, know-nothing shit stirrer without facts, reason or logic who should be ignored.

Sports reporter no one ever heard about says Jones is good and it was a bad team- a prescient, logical, and excellent talent evaluator who we all should attend.

Forget all other previously proffered excuses, it's Jerry Reese's fault going back to 2012 and Eli Manning's fault that Jones sucks.


The excuse-mongering for Daniel Jones beggars the imagination.


No one said this at all. Way to make shit up
Regardless of anything else  
Rudy5757 : 6/21/2022 2:18 pm : link
This is the last shot for DJ to show he is worth it or not worth it. The debate will be solved at the end of the season. I personally think if he finished the season in the top 15 of QBs he is worth a 2nd contract. Health will play a part too. If he plays 15 of 17 games thats good enough for me.

The QB play in the league overall is not great. The QBs have to be in an offense that suits them. Maybe just simply having a better scheme will improve DJs outlook. You can argue that the offense under Judge/Garrett was one of the worst and while under Shurmur Eli/Jones was much better than pre and post Shurmur.

Tired of reading the same arguments. Bottom line is that DJ is probably never going to get into that top 7 of players but you can win with someone in the top 15. Teams that have contunuity and a system can overcome bad QB play. We have not had a successful system in place in a while.
...  
christian : 6/21/2022 2:27 pm : link
The results speak for themselves. Manning was a declining player around 2016.

I believe Reese started to unwittingly take Manning for granted, and didn't fully realize how much of the burden Manning carried in 10, 11, and 12. Manning made all his weapons great during that time. If you take Manning out and replace him with a league average QB, those are double digit loss team.

Individually those were talented weapons, but they excelled under Manning. There's plenty of tape of Nicks, Manningham, Nicks, Ballard, etc. saying so.

When Manning couldn't shoulder the load, that luxury was gone -- and the difficulty of building a good offense was too great for Reese.

The Giants should have been aggressively seeking out a top end QB in 2017.

Instead, well, they did what they did.
RE: RE: …  
cjd2404 : 6/21/2022 2:28 pm : link
In comment 15736804 It's a New Day said:
Quote:
In comment 15736728 christian said:


Quote:

It started the moment Manning cried his way back into the lineup in 2017.


What a di(k thing to say. Should they have kept Geno Smith in there? a$$


In a word? Yes.

Eli was done, and Davis certainly was not the answer. Leaving Geno in there makes any new QB not have to be the "guy after the guy" It is far easier to come in and replace Geno than it was to replace Eli.

There was no reason to leave Eli in there other than for sentimental reasons.
The 2010 team  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/21/2022 2:51 pm : link
had a lot of talent. Still a capable OL. The team ran for 135 ypg game with Jacobs and Bradshaw who himself ran for over 1200. Nicks was developing. Capable TE.

On D you had Linval, JPP, Rolle, Ross, Phillips, Osi, Kiwi and Tuck.

They still have not fielded a team with close to that talent since. What the team changed was how they built teams for which Reese takes a good share of the blame.
Geno smith?  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 3:02 pm : link
Failed to win against a crappy raiders team in his first start here. And only start . The giants didn’t magically become a better different team. And that is despite even engram having a best game of his career.

What is he a rookie of something? Geno is a journey men back up. I’d he isn’t good enough to start on a three win rebuilding Seahawks team he sure isn’t starting material here . (Or the jets and what other ten teams he played for) now I think I’ve heard everything. Fact is what goes for the goose goes for the gander. You can’t say Eli sucked but D Jones is playing on a bad team.

Fact is Eli could have gone to play elsewhere he didn’t want to. Where is d jones going except third string on the eagles or something like that.
If we believe the team changed things in late-years of Reese  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/21/2022 3:08 pm : link
they certainly followed the same policy for the four years of DG, namely a total FUBAR of the offensive line evaluation process time and time and time again.

By all means, blame Reese until the day he was fired. The point of firing a GM is to bring in new decisionmakers.

If the new heads just do the same thing as the fired guy, that's on the new guy some, yes, but also on upper management.

The Giants tell you out loud that they do things as a collective, so there's no reason not to think ownership had a hand in the failures as well.

2012 to 2022 is a collective failure.
Most of the "hits"...  
bw in dc : 6/21/2022 3:46 pm : link
have plus or plus-plus skills that make them elite physical talents. For example:

Luck - great runner and great ad-hoc skills
Wentz - excellent arm, very good scrambling ability
Mahomes - great in everything
Allen - elite arm and mobility
LJax - elite mobility and running
Murray - very good arm and elite runner
Burrow - excellent pocket skills and improvisor
Hebert - elite arm, especially on the move, very good mover

I would not say Mac Jones is a "hit" yet. He had a nice rookie season, but too many overrate his success. In QBR and YPA he was middle of the pack. The jury is still out on a QB who doesn't have any elite physical skills.

So, excluding Jones, that's 8 out of 12 - 75% - in the "hits" category who have multiple plus physical skills.

If you only do first rounders, that's 8 out of 10, or 80% who have multiple plus physical skills.

Jones has maybe one plus skill. That's running. And he doesn't do that very well. In today's game, it's just better to have a plus arm and plus ability to make plays when things break down.

I don't deny that having stable team structure is important, but it's not as important as having those plus physical skills. Team structure can't teach the God given ability of the majority of those players.

Daboll will NEVER be able to teach Jones how to make the extemporaneous throws that Allen can make. As much as the Bills coaching staff helped develop Allen, he helped them equally - if not more - with his ability to make plays you can't teach...


...  
christian : 6/21/2022 4:00 pm : link
BW, I think in the Shurmur offense, Jones could have developed into an efficient game manager + type QB.

I thought after the 2019 season Jones had an Alex Smith ceiling.

I was one of the very few BBIers who felt if you give DumbleDave a 3rd year, Shurmur deserved one too.

In retrospect they should have. And they probably would have learned definitively after the 2020 season, none of them were the answer.
The greatest gift a QB has  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/21/2022 4:17 pm : link
is his mind. Second is his mental and physical toughness. Skills come after that.

Plenty of ultra talented QB's in traits have failed. Plenty of QB's with limited traits have had very good success. Some have won SB's with very good teams.

In addition to having a poor team around him the biggest issue Jones has is upstairs in dealing with decisions in real time. He has enough physical skills. It's whether or not his mind catches up to the speed of the game. Unlikely at this point but not impossible.



As far as the Eli Manning argument goes:  
81_Great_Dane : 6/21/2022 4:47 pm : link
Well, that escalated quickly.

One observation about how the Giants handled the Eli benching: They took the PR hit of ending the streak, they started Geno Smith (!!???), and Geno... played a little better than Eli was playing. Not much, but nonetheless, better, IIRC. So they took a huge PR hit for a small gain with the promise that maybe Smith would improve.

But having already taken the PR hit, the organization seemed to lose its mind (Panicked? I hate that word.) and not only backtracked and put Eli back in, but fired everyone. Which was just dumb. If you're going to stick with Manning no matter what, stick with Manning. If you want to give another guy a chance, give another guy a chance. But don't stick the new guy in, have him play decently and then give up on the experiment.

As for the replacements, replacing McAdoo with Shurmur was arguably an upgrade. Replacing Reese with Gettleman, a downgrade that arguably doomed Shurmur and Judge.

Returning to the nominal thread topic of Daniel Jones: Luck plays a huge role in NFL careers. Tom Brady was lucky. Good, but also lucky. Lots of talented QBs are good but unlucky and end up completely screwed by circumstances. RGIII was unlucky to have landed on a franchise that risked his career for nothing really very important. David Carr, unlucky. To go way back, Jim Plunkett -- unlucky early, lucky late. Daniel Jones so far: Very unlucky. Terrible organization, horrible surrounding cast, constant changes in coaching and awful offenses. So grading him "incomplete" is fair. But does that mean he's going to be better now? Not necessarily. We don't know how much is bad luck and how much is him just not being good. We'll know more in about 6 months, I guess.

What’s this new guy ?  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 5:19 pm : link
He played four years. You know what you had. He was not a rookie. If anything he should have started Webb if big suit was really evaluating roster talent on a lost season.

He wanted Eli to be the fall guy . How was Geno smith better he didn’t even complete 60perc of his passes.

I just the feeling this prone dug in on the Eli was old and sucked argument.

No matter how many QBs come in here and lose just the same like Geno Smith did against the Raiders when he started ; like Glennon did ; and like D Jones continues to do ; no matter what This would have been a good team but aEli Manning. Yea and proof is all this winning they have been doing without him right . Pff
...  
christian : 6/21/2022 6:09 pm : link
Say what now? ^
You knew what you had with Geno Smith  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 6:22 pm : link
He has not started in 4 years since. He only got to start again because Russ Wilson was hurt. He does not just get to start over Russ Wilson or Rivers or Eli M for that matter as well.
Debaser: Eli was 11th in TD passes in 2007, with 23.  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/21/2022 8:32 pm : link
Carson Palmer was 10th at 26. Eli did tie for the lead in INTs, as well as INT % among qualifiers.

Your stats are crap, and I don't even understand why you're pushing back on such a basic point. Eli wasn't very good until his first Super Bowl run. He wasn't usually terrible, other than his first four games. There were flashes, like the comeback in Philly, and he was better overall than Daniel Jones. But he wasn't particularly good either. What he showed above all in those early years was that he could take a hit, or throw a pick, and bounce back. That resilience in the face of physical punishment and other adversity made Eli great. Resilience remains among the open questions about Jones, and the early signs are not encouraging.
Eli had REAL flashes though  
Jerry in_DC : 6/21/2022 9:15 pm : link
I've been more critical than many of eli over the many years on BBI, but even when he was mediocre, there were times when he was absolutely awesome. Especially in high leverage spots. He could suck for most of a half, then be an absolute stud in the 2 minute drill. Complete command of the offense, slinging the ball all over the place. As inconsistent as he was, there was obviously at least something there from the beginning
RE: Debaser: Eli was 11th in TD passes in 2007, with 23.  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 9:27 pm : link
In comment 15737613 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Carson Palmer was 10th at 26. Eli did tie for the lead in INTs, as well as INT % among qualifiers.

Your stats are crap, and I don't even understand why you're pushing back on such a basic point. Eli wasn't very good until his first Super Bowl run. He wasn't usually terrible, other than his first four games. There were flashes, like the comeback in Philly, and he was better overall than Daniel Jones. But he wasn't particularly good either. What he showed above all in those early years was that he could take a hit, or throw a pick, and bounce back. That resilience in the face of physical punishment and other adversity made Eli great. Resilience remains among the open questions about Jones, and the early signs are not encouraging.


Your stats are crap. you are revising history to drag down Eli to make D Jones into something but what he is: a bottom tier QB.

In 2005 Eli had the 4th most TDs with 24.
In 2005 he was 5th with 3762 yards.
In 2006 he was 4th again with that same 24.

Nothing has changed since clown Gettleman drafted this guy. Nothing. All the NFL execs got it right. All the journalists that were like " he is not a 6th pick and this will set the Giants back years" got it right. Re-writing history about ELi doesn't change that and doesn't change what Jones is , he's a loser that never won anything.
RE: RE: Debaser: Eli was 11th in TD passes in 2007, with 23.  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 9:38 pm : link
In comment 15737660 Debaser said:
Quote:
In comment 15737613 Big Blue Blogger said:


Quote:


Carson Palmer was 10th at 26. Eli did tie for the lead in INTs, as well as INT % among qualifiers.

Your stats are crap, and I don't even understand why you're pushing back on such a basic point. Eli wasn't very good until his first Super Bowl run. He wasn't usually terrible, other than his first four games. There were flashes, like the comeback in Philly, and he was better overall than Daniel Jones. But he wasn't particularly good either. What he showed above all in those early years was that he could take a hit, or throw a pick, and bounce back. That resilience in the face of physical punishment and other adversity made Eli great. Resilience remains among the open questions about Jones, and the early signs are not encouraging.


I also find it comical that Eli wasn't good until he took a pretty good football team -- not as great as many make them out to be for Jones-excuse purposes-- carried them on his back ; played pretty much lights out; and defeated 10 point favorite and best coach and QB combo in the history of the sport. And was a SM MVP while doing it. Yea but other than that he sucked.But D Jones gets a pass WTF.
He would play against his brother back then in the Manning bowls  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 9:44 pm : link
play better in games and have better numbers than Peyton in said Manning bowls.

When has Jones ever played against an elite QB and out played them ?
...  
christian : 6/21/2022 10:35 pm : link
Manning showcased a high ceiling and low floor his first 3+ years. The best quality he exhibited was durability. Which was no fluke as we all learned.

Manning had the capacity to play terrible football, including the four interception game against the Vikings in late 2007.

It all clicked thereafter, but he was in teetering on the edge.

It's funny to think back to a time when the Giants had decently high standards for QB play. That time ended somewhere around 2017.
Eli and Peyton faced each other three times.  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/21/2022 10:36 pm : link
My rough tally:

Peyton
75-110-838-6-1

Eli
61-107-799-4-6

I am not seeing the statistical dominance of which you speak. More to the point, Peyton won all three games. The first was close, with Eli arguably outplaying Peyton after a slow start. The others were not close at all. The 2010 game was the weird one where Perry Fewell went all-in to take away the pass. Addai and Brown ran at will, and Peyton still put up nice numbers.

Nobody is denigrating Eli here. Yes, he finished in multi-way ties for fourth place in TD passes in 2005 and 2006. Some of those touchdowns foreshadowed his eventual greatness. The greatness came later, starting in Week 17 of the 2007 season. I’m not predicting a similar ascent for Daniel Jones. That would be nuts. I’m just not inclined to predict how much he can or will improve.
One of the few things that give me hope  
Thunderstruck27 : 6/21/2022 10:57 pm : link
for DJ is how ardently Debaser goes at him. To the point of ignoring the last 7 years of Eli's career to try to cut another QB down.
I still wish you hadn't given up on Glennon.
One of the few things  
Debaser : 6/22/2022 3:45 am : link
That makes me lose hope is the capricious and hypocritical nature of people when it comes to not only qb play but everything

You know back then when this team would go 0-2 to start a season , the expectations are that heads would roll. A qb and a head coach were pretty much expected to find another jobs. Now it’s like “well at least he isn’t Turing the ball over”. And this team sucks so might as well let him start some more and see if a miracle happens and d jones becomes something other than what he has been his whole career.

You guys and this goofball Mara are still holding out hope for this loser

They drafted a QB at 6 and Mara is going to be damn certain that he is going to get his moneys worth.

Last 7 years of Eli’s career? Does that include his 2015 pro bowl season? But I get it the giants sucked those years so you’re dug in on it being Eli’s fault and he was never that good either even at the start.


You mention Glennon . Glennon was there because he was never meant to be a threat to jones. When that plan blew up in maras face ; he brought in TTaylor with expectation that he never leave the bench unless jones is hurt. Mara just won’t let go of the idea that d jones is a sunk cost so we have to endure another year of terrible football
RE: Eli and Peyton faced each other three times.  
Debaser : 6/22/2022 10:56 am : link
In comment 15737712 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
My rough tally:

Peyton
75-110-838-6-1

Eli
61-107-799-4-6

I am not seeing the statistical dominance of which you speak.


Maybe you just don't want to see it? I have no idea what yoyur numbers are . Are you tallying all 3 games they played over the course of 16 year careers?

I thought we were talking about pre 2007 Eli or in other words the first game they played where Eli's passer rating was like 10 points higher than Peytons. Has Jones ever gone up against a QB that was argunably the best to ever play and have a 10 point higher passer rating?
RE: One of the few things that give me hope  
UConn4523 : 6/22/2022 11:37 am : link
In comment 15737724 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
for DJ is how ardently Debaser goes at him. To the point of ignoring the last 7 years of Eli's career to try to cut another QB down.
I still wish you hadn't given up on Glennon.


Lol. I’m regards to giving up, I have, on him being a troll. I’ve accepted this is actually who he is, sadly.
RE: So, let's sum up  
Toth029 : 6/22/2022 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15737234 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Sports reporter most never heard of says Jones sucks and Taylor is better- a lying, know-nothing shit stirrer without facts, reason or logic who should be ignored.

Sports reporter no one ever heard about says Jones is good and it was a bad team- a prescient, logical, and excellent talent evaluator who we all should attend.

Forget all other previously proffered excuses, it's Jerry Reese's fault going back to 2012 and Eli Manning's fault that Jones sucks.


The excuse-mongering for Daniel Jones beggars the imagination.


If you're referring to Emory Hunt, who also bashed Justin Herbert and praised Jalen Hurts in the process, then you're off base. He provide zero analysis and attributed nothing but false information.
FFS  
Thegratefulhead : 6/22/2022 2:23 pm : link
We know EXACTLY what Jones is.

EXACTLY.

We have a bunch of college games and 3 years of professional games.

We can evaluate what happened.

The people saying,

"We can't properly evaluate Jones"

Are idiots.

END OF STORY.

No more information is needed.

They are saying that shit because they at one time predicted Jones was going to be the shit and now they are so pathetic of a human, that they can't admit they were wrong about a football prediction.

No one cares, your football acumen is not in question.

We don't have any experts here.(Maybe a couple guys, you know who you are. I do not put myself in that group)

Jones will have significantly better stats in 2022 because I could exceed his 2021 production. It was that pitiful.

Jones is JAG. With great talent and scheme he will win some games. He elevates no one. Giving a second contract to that is stupid. I would rather risk an unknown.

yea grateful nailed it  
Debaser : 6/22/2022 3:25 pm : link
They can't admit they were wrong.

If you are really telling me that before Eli was in the playoffs in 2007 he was the same thing that we see now -- you really need to check yourself.

So unless Eli was playing better than every QB that post season ; all time greats and legends of the game than he was pretty much a scrub. He threw for for yards with 854 ; tied Brady with more TDs with 6 (while only having one Int) had a rating of 96 . So unless he was outplaying Rivers ; Favre ; Brady ; Peyton . Unless he was doing that than he and Jones are like the same thing . YEA RIGHT!
RE: FFS  
UConn4523 : 6/22/2022 3:30 pm : link
In comment 15738066 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
We know EXACTLY what Jones is.

EXACTLY.

We have a bunch of college games and 3 years of professional games.

We can evaluate what happened.

The people saying,

"We can't properly evaluate Jones"

Are idiots.

END OF STORY.

No more information is needed.

They are saying that shit because they at one time predicted Jones was going to be the shit and now they are so pathetic of a human, that they can't admit they were wrong about a football prediction.

No one cares, your football acumen is not in question.

We don't have any experts here.(Maybe a couple guys, you know who you are. I do not put myself in that group)

Jones will have significantly better stats in 2022 because I could exceed his 2021 production. It was that pitiful.

Jones is JAG. With great talent and scheme he will win some games. He elevates no one. Giving a second contract to that is stupid. I would rather risk an unknown.


I was definitely wrong on Jones. Thought he'd be able to bounce back from his bad year 2 but didn't. Shame on me I guess (not really, i'm just a fan with no impact on the games).

But our GM and HC seem to disagree with you and want to see what he does this year. So no matter how much you hate reading about all the fans wanting to see Jones with a better OL and weapons, just know that those running the team do too. We had 3+ rounds of opportunities to bring in a rookie with pro talent and didn't - I disagree with not doing it, but it is what it is. How much more can this be discussed?
Debaser: I hated the Jones pick from Day 1.  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/22/2022 7:14 pm : link
i hated pretty much everything about the way Dave Gettleman constricted the team. The comparison to Eli was not an equivalence, just a narrow point about improvement . If Eli went from ordinary to exceptional in year 4, maybe Jones can go from crappy and injury-prone to average in both production and durability. I’m not predicting that he will. Just saying it’s not out of the realm of possibility. He’ll never be Eli Manning. His ceiling is closer to Ryan Tannehill at best, and he’ll probably never even get there. He’s a Giant, though, so I’ll root for him.

Your fixation on a single game in 2006, a loss in which the Giants our-rushed Indy scored 21 points and never led, and couldn’t mount a drive with the the game on the line, is odd.
outrushed Indy 186-55, that is.  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/22/2022 7:19 pm : link
The Giants lost that game largely because Eli turned the ball over twice (you ignored his costly fumble), and couldn’t mount a winning drive.

None of this diminishes what Eli became, nor does it mean Jones will ever sniff his level.
 
christian : 6/22/2022 7:29 pm : link
BBB — I also find it difficult to muster up a rationale for Jones — a player I believe will not be a winning QB.

But I completely agree, there’s a perfectly reasonable argument Jones can make a leap (to some degree).

And if the counter argument is Manning was awesome his first three years — look no further than either of his games vs. Minnesota.

I think the reality is Manning took the leap from maddeningly inconsistent, to clutch. And Jones’s leap will be from rarely adequate to very average.
Whatever I’m just sick and tired  
Debaser : 6/23/2022 2:54 am : link
Of hearing about Jones and how he could be Eli Manning or he could be simms or he could be Ryan rannehill or he could be Kirk Cousin.

D Jones is just what he is until he proves otherwise and that is pretty much the second to worst QB in the NFL according to off advance stat expected wins category.

Everyone can look back and find something wrong with all of the QBs I’ve mentioned — Phil Simms , Eli , tannehill , even Peyton Manning . He had a pretty rough go his first few playoff games.

The point is you can’t just find fault and grade D Jones on a huge curve. The point is all of those guys had real moments where they played beyond what their normal rank would indicate.

Phil Simms had coach Walsh tell him he would be a hall of famer and shows up on a bad team that won 5/6 of his first starts. Tannehill shows up on the advance stats expected wins thing as third best qb in the NFL. Eli was too 5 / 6 in the NFL in yards and TDS in his first few years in the league and Cousins is pretty much a top 11 qb in the NFL no idea where that comparison is coming from.

There is nothing that Jones has that you can say is above his rank . Ever. Hes is just not an NFL qb. Not a starter anyway. I’ll stop saying this when we get frankly realistic about his accomplishments and other QBs and move on from this night mare
RE: Whatever I’m just sick and tired  
SGMen : 6/23/2022 5:32 am : link
In comment 15738542 Debaser said:
Quote:
Of hearing about Jones and how he could be Eli Manning or he could be simms or he could be Ryan rannehill or he could be Kirk Cousin.

D Jones is just what he is until he proves otherwise and that is pretty much the second to worst QB in the NFL according to off advance stat expected wins category.

Everyone can look back and find something wrong with all of the QBs I’ve mentioned — Phil Simms , Eli , tannehill , even Peyton Manning . He had a pretty rough go his first few playoff games.

The point is you can’t just find fault and grade D Jones on a huge curve. The point is all of those guys had real moments where they played beyond what their normal rank would indicate.

Phil Simms had coach Walsh tell him he would be a hall of famer and shows up on a bad team that won 5/6 of his first starts. Tannehill shows up on the advance stats expected wins thing as third best qb in the NFL. Eli was too 5 / 6 in the NFL in yards and TDS in his first few years in the league and Cousins is pretty much a top 11 qb in the NFL no idea where that comparison is coming from.

There is nothing that Jones has that you can say is above his rank . Ever. Hes is just not an NFL qb. Not a starter anyway. I’ll stop saying this when we get frankly realistic about his accomplishments and other QBs and move on from this night mare
You take away his fumbles his rookie year and his passing stats were excellent especially for a rookie. He was #2 all camp and thrown into the fray. Impressive but learning on th job is never easy.

Now year #2 he has film on him and teams see what he can and can't do as well. The defenses adjust. Jones has a new offense and no camp and starts 0 -4. Jones has key drops which cost him a shot at the division title despite a horrific OL and lack of Barkley and receivers at times due to injury.

Year #3 there is enough camp but again a horrific OL and injuries hurt him. Jones stats with time are pretty good actually.

Jones isn't elite 8. He just isn't. But he is better than his performance to date and I think that will come out this year under this regime. I predict he plays well enough to get tagged for a year.
Ryan Tannehill blows  
GNewGiants : 6/23/2022 6:03 am : link
Can we stop bringing him and Kirk Cousins up.

FML
RE: Does the article mention Jones's slow release time?  
VinegarPeppers : 6/23/2022 11:08 am : link
Yeah weak arm. Right. Whatever.

In comment 15737102 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
...Or that he needs to fully plant his feet to get any velocity and depth on his throws?

That's a lack of arm strength, folks. So many here don't understand what arm strength is and point to his ability to throw the occasional deep ball as evidence that he has a strong arm. Well, he needs a full windup and planted feet to do that because he cannot rely on his arm alone. He needs full mechanics.

He is not good at throwing on the run, his quick releases have no zip (and poor accuracy) and he is not good at throwing outside the numbers.

To me that is the biggest issue with Jones, and until he improves his arm strength (yes, it's possible, look at Tom Brady) then he is going to struggle.
RE: RE: Googs  
VinegarPeppers : 6/23/2022 11:09 am : link
OL OL OL OL

In comment 15737068 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15737052 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


2005-08 all had over 130 plus and playoff seasons. 2009 did not and no playoffs. '10 did and they had 10 wins with no playoffs (a rare occurrence). 2011 was a outlier.

2012-2018 never achieved the 130 mark. The outlier here was 2016 with a top five D performance wise that reverted back by '17.

Seems pretty clear to me which path to take as Eli aged. Seems you disagree.



Not compelling with all your outliers. 2006 they won 8 games and made playoffs too so why isn't that yet another outlier?

Eli did it with a team made up in many different ways...good running, good passing, good balance, good defense, etc. Of course logic suggests a good running game helps but also keep in mind the passing game in the NFL became far more prevalent for league playoff teams as the Eli-career aged.

just sayin'...
Daniel Jones has taught us...  
VinegarPeppers : 6/23/2022 11:14 am : link
That offensive line play, worst in the history of the franchise, back-up and practice squad receivers starting and totally new offensive systems every season play NO ROLE in the play or development of a QB.

Sick of this BS from the haters.
RE: Geno smith?  
VinegarPeppers : 6/23/2022 11:20 am : link
Yet another vote for "OLs don't impact QB play". Like the worst Giants OL in their history, v2021, vs the Eagles current outstanding OL wouldn't impact DJs play.

Its outrageous.

In comment 15737316 Debaser said:
Quote:
Failed to win against a crappy raiders team in his first start here. And only start . The giants didn’t magically become a better different team. And that is despite even engram having a best game of his career.

What is he a rookie of something? Geno is a journey men back up. I’d he isn’t good enough to start on a three win rebuilding Seahawks team he sure isn’t starting material here . (Or the jets and what other ten teams he played for) now I think I’ve heard everything. Fact is what goes for the goose goes for the gander. You can’t say Eli sucked but D Jones is playing on a bad team.

Fact is Eli could have gone to play elsewhere he didn’t want to. Where is d jones going except third string on the eagles or something like that.
RE: Daniel Jones has taught us...  
Scooter185 : 6/23/2022 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15738771 VinegarPeppers said:
Quote:
That offensive line play, worst in the history of the franchise, back-up and practice squad receivers starting and totally new offensive systems every season play NO ROLE in the play or development of a QB.

Sick of this BS from the haters.


There's plenty of blame to go around, it's just that us "haters" give DJ a piece of the blame pie instead of trying to blame everyone else but him
RE: RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/23/2022 1:56 pm : link
In comment 15736761 GNewGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 15736756 christian said:


Quote:


I enjoyed Manning when he played well, and I didn't enjoy Manning when he sucked.

I certainly didn't enjoy when he cried about losing his job, and then when the brain dead organization gave it back to him, he sucked and the team dove into a tail spin.



I would bet good money you didn’t enjoy when he played well either… but can’t prove it either way. You’re not an Eli fan. Sad, but it’s the truth. And again, if you think sticking with Eli is why we are here - you aren’t as smart of a fan as you think you are.

Considering you weren't on BBI until August of 2021, which is 2+ years after Eli retired, I'm curious how you can opine on anyone's feelings toward Eli during his career.
RE: RE: FFS  
Thegratefulhead : 6/23/2022 2:07 pm : link
In comment 15738135 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15738066 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


We know EXACTLY what Jones is.

EXACTLY.

We have a bunch of college games and 3 years of professional games.

We can evaluate what happened.

The people saying,

"We can't properly evaluate Jones"

Are idiots.

END OF STORY.

No more information is needed.

They are saying that shit because they at one time predicted Jones was going to be the shit and now they are so pathetic of a human, that they can't admit they were wrong about a football prediction.

No one cares, your football acumen is not in question.

We don't have any experts here.(Maybe a couple guys, you know who you are. I do not put myself in that group)

Jones will have significantly better stats in 2022 because I could exceed his 2021 production. It was that pitiful.

Jones is JAG. With great talent and scheme he will win some games. He elevates no one. Giving a second contract to that is stupid. I would rather risk an unknown.




I was definitely wrong on Jones. Thought he'd be able to bounce back from his bad year 2 but didn't. Shame on me I guess (not really, i'm just a fan with no impact on the games).

But our GM and HC seem to disagree with you and want to see what he does this year. So no matter how much you hate reading about all the fans wanting to see Jones with a better OL and weapons, just know that those running the team do too. We had 3+ rounds of opportunities to bring in a rookie with pro talent and didn't - I disagree with not doing it, but it is what it is. How much more can this be discussed?
I was frustrated with other things when I typed that. For real. I took too strong a position. I think they tried for Trubisky and they did not like Willis(I did) enough. It is possible that Jones skill set works with this system. I promise I will root for Jones like hell. I don't dislike him at all. I like the man.

Systematically, I think he will do well this year. Where I have sincere doubts is when shit doesn't happen on schedule. In golf terms, I feel like he "grips it" when the pressure increases situationally and actively.

I saw it at Duke and have seen it for three years. I don't feel that light is going to go on. I think he will perform better this year. It would take a monster year to want to sign him to another contract. I wouldn't actually, If he has that monster year, I franchise him and make him do it again.

I apologize for the overly strong take though. It doesn't make anyone an idiot because they believe differently than I. Ashamed of my post.
thegrateful  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/23/2022 2:49 pm : link
The NFL spoke loudly what this past years drafted QB's were. Not very good. Despite many calling for one on this site the Giants correctly sided with the rest of the league.

Be patient. I think they have a plan. Although they have said positive things about Jones like his work ethic nothing has been said either by words or action that tells us they strongly think they have the right QB imv.
Really can't wait until I never have to hear the name Daniel Jones  
Greg from LI : 6/23/2022 2:57 pm : link
ever again

Hopefully, that day is coming very soon.
RE: RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/23/2022 3:35 pm : link
In comment 15736966 GNewGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 15736953 christian said:


Quote:


You'd be hard pressed to find a single poster who believes Reese did a good job managing the team from 2012 - 2017. Everyone knows he did a bad job, and he got fired.

So honestly, what's the expiration on blame?

Are you guys going to blame Gettleman if Schoen fields a shitty team in 2025?



Most good teams have guys that are 6-7-8 year veterans which would overlap with Reese’s tenure - so the blame sure as hell stays with him partially. And DG is far from blameless either. They’re both culprits.

And if this team stinks in 2025 like you said - Gettleman sure as shit would deserve some of the blame, absolutely.

If Reese did such a terrible job, why didn't Gettleman immediately begin a tear-down rebuild when he took over?

Either Reese didn't leave the cupboard completely bare, or if he did, Gettleman was an even worse GM than Reese for not only not recognizing that, but further compounding it.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
GNewGiants : 6/23/2022 4:09 pm : link
In comment 15739057 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15736966 GNewGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 15736953 christian said:


Quote:


You'd be hard pressed to find a single poster who believes Reese did a good job managing the team from 2012 - 2017. Everyone knows he did a bad job, and he got fired.

So honestly, what's the expiration on blame?

Are you guys going to blame Gettleman if Schoen fields a shitty team in 2025?



Most good teams have guys that are 6-7-8 year veterans which would overlap with Reese’s tenure - so the blame sure as hell stays with him partially. And DG is far from blameless either. They’re both culprits.

And if this team stinks in 2025 like you said - Gettleman sure as shit would deserve some of the blame, absolutely.


If Reese did such a terrible job, why didn't Gettleman immediately begin a tear-down rebuild when he took over?

Either Reese didn't leave the cupboard completely bare, or if he did, Gettleman was an even worse GM than Reese for not only not recognizing that, but further compounding it.



Didn’t DG do a tear down? Traded Beckham after a year. Got rid of Hart/Flowers. I can’t recall but didn’t he let DRC or Jackrabbit go? Didn’t resign Collins after a year. I know he traded snacks And traded JPP as well.

Listen if you want to say DGs 4 years were worse than Reese’s last 5 years… I am not going to argue. My argument that this ineptness started around 2013. Reese didn’t leave DG with much and DG certainly made it worse. That’s my point. Does Reese deserve all of the blame for what’s happening now? No but he gets part of the blame which dwindles each year. I mean we have 1 player left in this team and it could be argued he should be cut too left from his tenure. That’s really sad.
RE: RE: Whatever I’m just sick and tired  
Debaser : 6/26/2022 2:20 am : link



Quote:


You take away his fumbles his rookie year and his passing stats were excellent especially for a rookie. He was #2 all camp and thrown into the fray. Impressive but learning on th job is never easy.


Another bbi myth Jones had this great rookie year. He turned the ball over 39 times and just like you’d expect lost a lot of football games. He then compiled meaningless stats that not one time resulted in a come from behind win.

That is supposed to compare to Phil Simms winning his first five games when got the start on a bad Giants team his rookie year?

All of Eli Mannings supposed bad play on account of all the giants losses are supposed to compare jones 39 turnovers?

Eli had a decent passer rating ; played behind s horrible oline as well and with some really bad defenses as well; but he sucks because the giants lost. But d jones gets a pass. Is this a joke? D jones has 2 channels ; turnovers and garbage time stats or few turnovers and no touchdowns.
Debaser: Phil won his first four starts after the Giants started 0-5.  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/26/2022 11:04 am : link
It would have been six, but Roger Staubach led a crazy comeback in Phil’s fifth start, when it looked like the Giants had pulled off the upset.

I agree with you about Jones’s 2019 season. He showed some good things, but was not good overall.

There is something to the idea that the organization screwed up by keeping Eli at the top of the depth chart, depriving Jones of valuable first-team reps. In hindsight, I would say they should have cut ties with Eli in March 2019, rather than pay his roster bonus, let alone his salary. But that wasn’t going to happen, so there’s no point belaboring it. And nobody could have anticipated how COVID would reshape 2020. But other young QBs like Herbert and Burrow have overcome these issues, so I agree with your key point that they don’t excuse Jones’s shortcomings.
RE: Really can't wait until I never have to hear the name Daniel Jones  
Scooter185 : 6/26/2022 1:11 pm : link
In comment 15739021 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
ever again

Hopefully, that day is coming very soon.


+1000
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