No idea who Nolan Murt is, but he does some analysis of QB hits vs misses and lays out pretty well the pro Daniel Jones argument (or more generally, the "no qb could succeed here" argument) even while this article classifies Jones himself in the "jury still out" category.
I believe in this approach, summarized below (the article goes into a lot more detail).
Perhaps the counter point would be that this is legacy thinking and that in today's game, basketball on turf, you need to identify that superior quick minded, quick reaction agile athlete in the
point guard QB position whose natural gifts can succeed right away, no matter how terrible the surroundings are.
I get that counter point, but I would say that those QB's are too rare to plan for one.
If the factors claimed for the QB's in this article are accurate and not subjective, and from the limited I know about these other QB situations, they seem to be pretty accurate, it does appear to support the conclusion that first developing a good environment, then making the right draft selection at the right time (and subsequent handling of the player) are a surer path to a "good" QB than hoping to find that rare "can win no matter what" QB. Seems kind of obvious to me.
Also, look at the factors listed for the QB's classified as "hits". Say what you want about DJ's talent, but did he have any of those factors at all outside of his first year? Even if one grants that there are talent differences, look at all of the advantages those successful QB's had. Now look at the factors for the unsuccessful ones. Outside of injury, it's pretty stark, the difference. The Giants lately offer more of the factors of the unsuccessful QB's than the successful ones.
Makes "no QB could succeed here" seem pretty on point. Given that, do we point at DJ or the team as the problem with the QB position and the offense in general, ultimately wins vs losses.
Think back to Shoen's comments on evaluating QB's from outside your system - for bad plays you can't really say when and if the QB is to blame vs other players vs the play call vs the offense, because you just don't know what was supposed to happen.
Combine those two points of view and honestly, we don't know what we have in DJ at all, other than little hints here and there - both good and bad. Therefore as we've all been saying, this is his audition - this is his true test.
The two-phase quest begins with the development environment’s careful construction, its own process that begins a year or two before the quarterback enters the building. It involves identifying the right staff to develop the quarterback, weaponizing and fortifying the offense with skill position and offensive line talent and preparing to adapt the system to match the skillset of the quarterback.
The selection made in the draft is not the end of the quest, but the beginning of its second phase, the developmental phase, another multi-year process during which the collaboration of the three component themes within the development environment is of utmost importance. As demonstrated above, all three of the component themes coexist in symbiotic relationships. They work together. They feed off each other.
If this two-phase quest is done correctly, the odds of hitting on this paramount pick, the drafting of the franchise quarterback, are significantly increased. After all, as this research indicates, the hits aren’t made in the selection process; the hits are made in the development process. Even the most promising young mango tree in the world requires a confluence of factors to reach its fruit-bearing potential.
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"the hits aren’t made in the selection process; the hits are made in the development process."
We have had an awful development process.
It seems like the new staff would agree with this philosophy and maybe are trying to compress that into the one offseason they have with Jones.
I guess the take away for me here is, if Jones doesn't earn his spot after this season, it does seem like we are building a good environment for any credible QB talent to come in and be at his best. That's really good for the Giants' future.
The Secret to Finding a Franchise Quarterback: Part 1 - (
New Window )
It started the moment Manning cried his way back into the lineup in 2017. Virtually every big decision from that day forward set this situation up.
But the premise of that article really implies Jones is going to need a few seasons being rebuilt in a stable system, and it’s a luxury the economics make improbable to gamble on.
It started the moment Manning cried his way back into the lineup in 2017. Virtually every big decision from that day forward set this situation up.
But the premise of that article really implies Jones is going to need a few seasons being rebuilt in a stable system, and it’s a luxury the economics make improbable to gamble on.
It started the moment Manning cried his way back into the lineup in 2017. Virtually every big decision from that day forward set this situation up.
But the premise of that article really implies Jones is going to need a few seasons being rebuilt in a stable system, and it’s a luxury the economics make improbable to gamble on.
Eli cried his way back? There’s that anti-Eli narrative you have pushed on many threads. He didn’t fucking cry his way back. Such a weak argument.
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I’ve made a similar argument for many years — Jones’s failure pre-date Jones.
It started the moment Manning cried his way back into the lineup in 2017. Virtually every big decision from that day forward set this situation up.
But the premise of that article really implies Jones is going to need a few seasons being rebuilt in a stable system, and it’s a luxury the economics make improbable to gamble on.
Eli cried his way back? There’s that anti-Eli narrative you have pushed on many threads. He didn’t fucking cry his way back. Such a weak argument.
He literally cried in front of his locker, the GM and coach got fired, and he was back in the lineup to suck it up for another year plus.
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In comment 15736728 christian said:
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I’ve made a similar argument for many years — Jones’s failure pre-date Jones.
It started the moment Manning cried his way back into the lineup in 2017. Virtually every big decision from that day forward set this situation up.
But the premise of that article really implies Jones is going to need a few seasons being rebuilt in a stable system, and it’s a luxury the economics make improbable to gamble on.
Eli cried his way back? There’s that anti-Eli narrative you have pushed on many threads. He didn’t fucking cry his way back. Such a weak argument.
He literally cried in front of his locker, the GM and coach got fired, and he was back in the lineup to suck it up for another year plus.
And he cried at Coughlins presser when he “retired” - that didn’t save Coughlin
He cried in his last game against Miami - he never got another start.
He’s a crier, so what? He will most likely cry at his HOF induction too. That wasn’t the reason Reese and McAdoo got fired. Reese got fired cause the roster was worse than what Gettleman left - think about that for a second. McAdoo produced two of the worst offenses in the league as HC and many people quit on the team on him. If you think Eli was responsible for those two - then your post is even more comical than it is.
The fact is you shit on Eli whenever you can. I can’t fathom why a giants fan would, but to each their own. But it’s really sad to do so.
The realistic situation is that the jury won't deliberate for much longer. In fact if he has a slow start over 4-8 games I wouldn't be surprised at all for him to get sat down. Sad, but not at all surprised.
I certainly didn't enjoy when he cried about losing his job, and then when the brain dead organization gave it back to him, he sucked and the team dove into a tail spin.
The problems started after the 2012 season when Reese Mishit and ignored the OL for years and didn’t have ONE single draft picks after the 3rd round be a meaningful player in the NFL. Yeah 2016 was fun but it was a mirage that bud the true problems and we had to spend mightily to do it. Sure OBJ in his prime was fun, but again the same problems we had in 2013? Guess what? Still existed throughout last year.
No OL
No GM
Very little talent
The giants problem didn’t start by keeping Eli. It started when Reese and dipshit fucking Marc Ross kept fucking up the roster for 5 consecutive years.
So we are surprised when our maybe-drafted-too-high-but-has-pedigree-and-talent-though-plenty-of-detractors QB isn't a success?
I certainly didn't enjoy when he cried about losing his job, and then when the brain dead organization gave it back to him, he sucked and the team dove into a tail spin.
I would bet good money you didn’t enjoy when he played well either… but can’t prove it either way. You’re not an Eli fan. Sad, but it’s the truth. And again, if you think sticking with Eli is why we are here - you aren’t as smart of a fan as you think you are.
The Giants made a bunch of brain dead decisions after the 2017 season, and that was largely the situation Jones was drafted into.
So we are surprised when our maybe-drafted-too-high-but-has-pedigree-and-talent-though-plenty-of-detractors QB isn't a success?
You can have whatever QB you want in your team when you have 2 GMs that were as incompetent as Reese’s last 5 years and gettlemans 4 years - you ain’t winning shit - I don’t care if it’s Mahomes or Allen slinging it. Cause I can guarantee they wouldn’t be as good with the Giants because the talent, coaching, and everything else would have stunted their growth.
The fact people still can’t see that TALENT and roster building is so important just amazes me. I don’t care if Jones is good or not anymore. I know that he wouldn’t even be in the top 10 reasons why we sucked during his tenure.
The Giants made a bunch of brain dead decisions after the 2017 season, and that was largely the situation Jones was drafted into.
Actually those bone head decisions started in 2012 not 2017. We are still the same shit team we were in 2013 and for the same reason. But again people still want to ignore why but keep harping on Jones. It’s pretty comical at this point.
This is probably going to blow your mind -- but I'm a Giants fan and I like when the Giants are good.
If you don't think the mess Gettleman constructed under the assumption Manning still had it, is a bit part of Jones failing, excellente.
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I would bet good money you didn’t enjoy when he played well either… but can’t prove it either way. You’re not an Eli fan. Sad, but it’s the truth. And again, if you think sticking with Eli is why we are here - you aren’t as smart of a fan as you think you are.
This is probably going to blow your mind -- but I'm a Giants fan and I like when the Giants are good.
If you don't think the mess Gettleman constructed under the assumption Manning still had it, is a bit part of Jones failing, excellente.
I think the Giants failing since 2013 has been a accumulation of things. And I have stated a few times already. But the main reason has been roster build up. Started with Reese/Ross and has been continued by DG. But I’m not naive to think it started with DG and Jones. That’s kind of shortsighted thinking.
I mean I know fans think they’re smarter than everyone else when it comes to players - but I’m not going to sit here and tell you if a QB has “it” when the rest of the offense is complete shit. And guess what? Outside OBJ for 3-4 years and Barkley’s rookie year - we haven’t had one OL, one TE - or any other WR/RB that were above average since 2012. Think about that for a second. Two players in 10 years that Eli and Jones played with…
And that’s not to say Eli and Jones are/were good. But I’m pretty confident what surrounded them has been worse than them. And that’s the problem. So like I said - true problems started with Reese/Ross and continued with DG.
I don't know whether Jones can be the guy or not, but hopefully with a little more talent and better play calling, we'll be in better position to make that call.
I don't know whether Jones can be the guy or not, but hopefully with a little more talent and better play calling, we'll be in better position to make that call.
This is a logical fallacy. The offense looked better with Jones than with Fromme, a poor QB who had started no games, and Glennon, who isn't a capable backup. And based on their performances you are saying no QB could do better than Jones. I don't think I have to spell out for you why that is terrible logic. By the way, the numbers say that Tom Brady, for instance, can process the field and release the ball and make plays, faster than it takes Daniel Jones to drop back, feel pressure, and make his usual mistakes. Jones holds the ball too long. He's not decisive and the game is too fast for him. Other QBs without those deficits can perform better than Jonea.
Nonetheless, the central conclusion does fit with recent Giants history. The team has paid dearly for the original sin of the Gettleman era: pursuing one last run with Eli. The 2018 Giants were built on the premise that the team could retool around Manning with an explosive running back and a few expensive band-aids. A year later, they inserted Jones into a roster that was still distorted by the failed premise of 2018.
In an alternate history, Gettleman would have moved Beckham and others a year earlier and used the 2018 and 2019 drafts to rebuild the team's foundation. In a perfect version of that timeline, they would have passed on the weak 2019 QB class, tanked completely with either Eli or a cheap seat-warmer QB and added Justin Herbert in 2020. If only.
Assuming they did pick Jones in 2019, would he have done materially better if the team had committed to rebuilding sooner? I doubt it, simply because one year was insufficient for the renovation needed. If Jones had joined the team in 2020 rather than 2019, two years into a full rebuild, he might have fared better. That's too many layers of counterfactual to unravel.
The bottom line is that Gettleman got it all backwards, and as a result the window is rapidly closing on Daniel Jones. At this point, he needs to be really good to keep his job beyond his guaranteed rookie contract. That's not entirely his fault. It's simply the way things are for a QB who spent his first three seasons with an awful, injury-riddled team, and who hasn't done much to distinguish himself from the awfulness or the injuries.
I like Jones, and I don't blame him for the idiocy of a terrible team drafting him at #6 and expecting him to be the answer. I hope he plays a full season and thrives in 2022. But the ship has most likely sailed.
I think what was said at the end is the key piece. Whatever happens with Jones the Giants are trying to have a better infrastructure in place for whoever the QB is. If they come out of this year with a good OL with some depth they will be in a much better place. They may already have some skill guys in place.
Under shurmur, the giants brought in players with ties to James Bettcher (arizona) and ties to shurmur/ Mike shula (oc). Mauro, buccanon, bethea, markus golden, kareem martin, Remmers. Jonathan Stewart was an overpay.
Under judge, our drafts were largely players with SEC ties and how many players were brought in for special teams? The coaches had more of an impact on the drafts and free agent acquisitions than the front office. The coaches were not good on roster construction. Joe judge was better at college targets in the draft. I think that was largely due to the college coaches he had on his staff and connections he had to college coaches.
Gettleman as the general manager is responsible for the players acquired, but I don't see any year under shurmur or judge where the players acquired were opposed by the coaches. In fact, in many circumstances, they wanted them. Judge sat down with golladay and adoree Jackson. They were not going to be signed without judge's ok.
The front office is to blame for the coaching hires and gettleman. Let's hope they got it right this time.
Jones will be "evaluated" over his first 8 or so games. No way he gets pulled the first four unless he is so so so bad that no one can justify keeping him in the fight. But I don't think that will happen here. Rather, I think the Giants will try to run early and throw short a lot to quick receivers like Toney, Shepard and Barkley out of the backfield. Keep it safe and go 20+ at times to keep defenses honest.
I will say this again: Jones will do very well this year due to his experience BUT only if his primary guys get healthy & stay healthy thru camp and the season: Thomas, Glowinski, Neal, Toney, Galloday, Shepard, Barkley must stay healthy and bring continuity. The youth must develop so a guy like Robinson is a force as the season progresses. Same goes for Thibs and Neal.
We need the coaches to figure out the players strengths and mask their weaknesses which are many. This team simply lacks top end talent which is why they will lose close games.
My prayer is 9 - 8 but a lot has to fall into place for that to happen.
Go Jones, Go Giants, Go Evaluation year!
It started the moment Manning cried his way back into the lineup in 2017.
What a di(k thing to say. Should they have kept Geno Smith in there? a$$
OL.....I know a turnstile RT would be unnerving to any QB.
TE....Engram single handedly caused several turnovers.
Coaching....non stable and unimaginative offense was damaging
All true....But it does not matter.
It's time for Jones to prove it...ready or not.
To the article, a lot of fair assessments and some questionable ones. Although I think the main takeaway is in their conclusion that a stronger infrastructure (front office and coaching) and obtaining some reliable pieces for the Offense first will increase the chances that the 1st/2nd round QB you draft later will develop into a franchise guy. It's far from some mind-blowing epiphany and still kind of overlooks the fact that some QBs drafted just have the "right-stuff" and can bring out the best/better in a front office, coaching staff and offensive roster.
A ton of mistakes made by the NY Giants in the years before Jones was even drafted and since. Poor infrastructure in-house and a weak supporting roster. Jones himself has the look of guy, thus far, that had no business being pulled up to #6 overall as well. The idea that it will all come together fast enough to move Jones into franchise-guy category or that his own respective right-stuff has been supressed or delayed and will soon appear is just unlikely.
Will root for the Giants and Jones as always in 2022, but it won't take long before the 2023 QB Draft Class becomes the primary story on this board...
It will be interesting to read between the lines of what is said by Kafka and Daboll. They will know.
Well, folks, we have sunk to new lows.
Personally, I blame Raul Allegre...
But the decisions he made in 2012 had very little chance of materially impacting the situation Jones walked into 8 off seasons later.
As BBB posted above, the Giants made wholesale changes in 2018.
When Jones entered the lineup in 2019, the head coach, staff and 8 of the 11 offensive regulars were chosen by Gettleman.
That's the time period that set the stage for Jones. Not what Reese did when Jones was a sophomore in high school.
1. Is he setting the protections correctly pre snap? A lot of times the free blitzer is on the QB not reading properly pre snap.
2. Has he learned to feel the pressure in the pocket and shuffle to clean a spot while keeping his eyes down field and finding a 2nd or 3rd option?
3. Can he throw on the run? So far he been bad at throwing accurately on the move.
4. Has he learned to protect himself when he's running? If he keeps missing multiple games every year it's a problem.
The QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much grief when things go poorly. The NFL is an 11 man game. You can count the QBs on one hand that can lift an entire team almost by themselves. But it's a fact that in the NFL excellent QB play is essential to winning.
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I enjoyed Manning when he played well, and I didn't enjoy Manning when he sucked.
I certainly didn't enjoy when he cried about losing his job, and then when the brain dead organization gave it back to him, he sucked and the team dove into a tail spin.
I would bet good money you didn’t enjoy when he played well either… but can’t prove it either way. You’re not an Eli fan. Sad, but it’s the truth. And again, if you think sticking with Eli is why we are here - you aren’t as smart of a fan as you think you are.
Sticking with Eli might not be why the Giants are where they are. But if you believed Eli was still a winner and not the reason the Giants were such a losing team his final 4 seasons; you can’t make the argument that Jones should have raised the talent level surrounding him with his play
It started the moment Manning cried his way back into the lineup in 2017. Virtually every big decision from that day forward set this situation up.
But the premise of that article really implies Jones is going to need a few seasons being rebuilt in a stable system, and it’s a luxury the economics make improbable to gamble on.
You know, ww get a lot of pro-Jones posters who, somewhat understandably, criticize negative posters for hating on their favorite team's QB, yet have no issue throwing a 2-time SB MVP, likely HOFer under the bus.
The hating argument goes both ways, and I'm giving Eli the benefit of the doubt before the guy who has yet to win 6 games.
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In comment 15736756 christian said:
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I enjoyed Manning when he played well, and I didn't enjoy Manning when he sucked.
I certainly didn't enjoy when he cried about losing his job, and then when the brain dead organization gave it back to him, he sucked and the team dove into a tail spin.
I would bet good money you didn’t enjoy when he played well either… but can’t prove it either way. You’re not an Eli fan. Sad, but it’s the truth. And again, if you think sticking with Eli is why we are here - you aren’t as smart of a fan as you think you are.
Sticking with Eli might not be why the Giants are where they are. But if you believed Eli was still a winner and not the reason the Giants were such a losing team his final 4 seasons; you can’t make the argument that Jones should have raised the talent level surrounding him with his play
Huh? I stated multiple times this thread that Daniel Jones wouldn’t even be in my top 10 reasons why this team has sucked. And I’m not a Jones fan either.
The big mistake they made was not reverting back to building a outstanding running game. Eli with two outstanding WR's (2011) and a very good 3rd with a still functional pass blocking OL produced a SB. When that OL could was no longer functional and both Nicks and Cruz got hurt it was over. After taking 20 plus hits in the 2011 NFCCG the Giants response was Wilson, Randle, Hosley, and JPP TE's. That doesn't show a franchise who knew the team or its QB very well imv.
They never recovered.
The big mistake they made was not reverting back to building a outstanding running game. Eli with two outstanding WR's (2011) and a very good 3rd with a still functional pass blocking OL produced a SB. When that OL could was no longer functional and both Nicks and Cruz got hurt it was over. After taking 20 plus hits in the 2011 NFCCG the Giants response was Wilson, Randle, Hosley, and JPP TE's. That doesn't show a franchise who knew the team or its QB very well imv.
They never recovered.
You make a great point about the 2012 draft. Just a horrific use of resources. Reese’s drafts from 2012 to his last one would be the number 1 reason why we have sucked for 10 years.
The big mistake they made was not reverting back to building a outstanding running game. Eli with two outstanding WR's (2011) and a very good 3rd with a still functional pass blocking OL produced a SB. When that OL could was no longer functional and both Nicks and Cruz got hurt it was over. After taking 20 plus hits in the 2011 NFCCG the Giants response was Wilson, Randle, Hosley, and JPP TE's. That doesn't show a franchise who knew the team or its QB very well imv.
They never recovered.
Except that we had to he, IIRC, 31st ranked rushing attack in 2011.
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running game that gets 130 plus per game. Playoffs.
The big mistake they made was not reverting back to building a outstanding running game. Eli with two outstanding WR's (2011) and a very good 3rd with a still functional pass blocking OL produced a SB. When that OL could was no longer functional and both Nicks and Cruz got hurt it was over. After taking 20 plus hits in the 2011 NFCCG the Giants response was Wilson, Randle, Hosley, and JPP TE's. That doesn't show a franchise who knew the team or its QB very well imv.
They never recovered.
You make a great point about the 2012 draft. Just a horrific use of resources. Reese’s drafts from 2012 to his last one would be the number 1 reason why we have sucked for 10 years.
Thanks. Even before that draft they could have planned better for an aging and expensive OL. O'Hara left replaced by a high priced center who got Hurt (Bass). Then Schwartz (Hurt). Those should have been drafted and developed OL ready to go. Instead they were taking Snee to practice practically on a golf cart.
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running game that gets 130 plus per game. Playoffs.
The big mistake they made was not reverting back to building a outstanding running game. Eli with two outstanding WR's (2011) and a very good 3rd with a still functional pass blocking OL produced a SB. When that OL could was no longer functional and both Nicks and Cruz got hurt it was over. After taking 20 plus hits in the 2011 NFCCG the Giants response was Wilson, Randle, Hosley, and JPP TE's. That doesn't show a franchise who knew the team or its QB very well imv.
They never recovered.
Except that we had to he, IIRC, 31st ranked rushing attack in 2011.
You did not read or comprehend what I wrote very well.
Quite a few agree but Jerry also got a little too full of himself imv. The SB clock and then his skittish comment about Eli seemed to pass the blame.
As far as, "stuck with him, making excuses, & dying on the DJ hill," none of these things really matter, Jones is the 2022 QB. I hope that he play's lights-out and makes a 2nd contract the right move.
If not, good luck to him and to the QB of the future lining up with the Giants 1st pick in the 2023 draft.
I ask this is in all seriousness. He hasn't worked here in five years.
There are several posts on this thread bemoaning decisions he made 11 offseasons ago.
There is one player on this roster he chose.
I ask this is in all seriousness. He hasn't worked here in five years.
There are several posts on this thread bemoaning decisions he made 11 offseasons ago.
There is one player on this roster he chose.
Here are two teams in the division who had success with drafted rookie QB's and what the previous regime (s) left for thme.
Wentz 2016, In place on the OL. Peters, Kelce and Johnson and a outstanding TE group in Ertz and capable Celek.
Dak also 2016, In place on the OL. Smith, Martin and Frederick. At the TE you had Witten.
So with those 6 OL you are looking at 4 HOF's and two more who have/had a chance. A HOF TE and a outstanding one.
Reese left......a disaster.
I ask this is in all seriousness. He hasn't worked here in five years.
There are several posts on this thread bemoaning decisions he made 11 offseasons ago.
There is one player on this roster he chose.
It’s a domino effect from his incompetence starting in 2012. Not signing draft choices to second contracts, giving out massive FA contracts, and hiring inept coaches made us stink. Since we were worse when he left us, DG made a big problem worse by trying to get good by doing the same formula. Again, a GMs job is to acquire talent and he failed miserably his last 5 years. Then DG made it worse. The pattern has been there for over a decade but select posters like yourself want to have blinders on and blame everything on DG.
If you think a complete turnaround happens in 1-2 years - great. Just make sure you’re the leader not to blame Gettleman anymore in 2024 if we still stink. Sound good?
So yes the Reese blame still goes on. Maybe in a few years it will die down, but the shithole we had to endure for over a decade started with him and continues to this day.
So honestly, what's the expiration on blame?
Are you guys going to blame Gettleman if Schoen fields a shitty team in 2025?
I ask this is in all seriousness. He hasn't worked here in five years.
There are several posts on this thread bemoaning decisions he made 11 offseasons ago.
There is one player on this roster he chose.
So for historical reference, sure but JR in the rearview.
The big mistake they made was not reverting back to building a outstanding running game. Eli with two outstanding WR's (2011) and a very good 3rd with a still functional pass blocking OL produced a SB. When that OL could was no longer functional and both Nicks and Cruz got hurt it was over. After taking 20 plus hits in the 2011 NFCCG the Giants response was Wilson, Randle, Hosley, and JPP TE's. That doesn't show a franchise who knew the team or its QB very well imv.
They never recovered.
Huh?
Eli made playoffs and won Super Bowls with a good running games and good passing games. RBs and WRs were taken over the years that followed that NFCCG trying to do it again.
It never happened because the OL became a joke, those offensive playmakers weren't nearly good as who they were replacing and Eli also moved into decline mode as the years wore on until he was replaced.
So honestly, what's the expiration on blame?
Are you guys going to blame Gettleman if Schoen fields a shitty team in 2025?
Most good teams have guys that are 6-7-8 year veterans which would overlap with Reese’s tenure - so the blame sure as hell stays with him partially. And DG is far from blameless either. They’re both culprits.
And if this team stinks in 2025 like you said - Gettleman sure as shit would deserve some of the blame, absolutely.
I ask this is in all seriousness. He hasn't worked here in five years.
There are several posts on this thread bemoaning decisions he made 11 offseasons ago.
There is one player on this roster he chose.
It already has. This is fluff and excuses. Dave Gettlemen spent hundreds of millions of dollars of cap space and top 10 draft picks and blew it all for historic losing. This has nothing to do with Reese.
Are you guys going to blame Gettleman if Schoen fields a shitty team in 2025?
Some will of course.
Speaking for myself, I want to keep giving Gettleman at least some shite until they raise another Lombardi. But mostly to the chuckleheads that supported him for the last 4 years.
:-)
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When does the clock expire on Jerry Reese blame?
I ask this is in all seriousness. He hasn't worked here in five years.
There are several posts on this thread bemoaning decisions he made 11 offseasons ago.
There is one player on this roster he chose.
It already has. This is fluff and excuses. Dave Gettlemen spent hundreds of millions of dollars of cap space and top 10 draft picks and blew it all for historic losing. This has nothing to do with Reese.
He had to replace Flowers. He had to replace Apple. Imagine starting with a Peters or Smith at LT in place and what path could have taken. Even with Flowers they tried him at RT. I still remember his opening drive against Jax at RT. Heck of trip. Then a hold.
LoS - you put up that statement about the running game being 130 yards/game and Eli was in the playoffs. And I was commenting that wasn't always the case...that he made it w/o such a stat. And that they kept trying to give him a better running game but failed.
It already has. This is fluff and excuses. Jerry Reese spent hundreds of millions of dollars of cap space and top 10 draft picks and blew it all for historic losing.
Fixed it for you.
When Reese left - there was not one unit that was even average. Hell, I would argue we only had ONE. Above average player when Reese left and that player publicly wanted out.
I could argue we were worse off after Reese was fired then when DG left. How pathetic is that?
Did selections like Flowers and Apple have a lasting impact? Sure. But the failure of those picks also contributed to the Giants picking second in 2018, sixth in 2019, and fourth in 2020. Anyway, Gettleman took the gig, and all that came with it. Maybe he deserves a pass for 2018, though I push back even on that because he embraced (or pretended to) the "win with Eli" concept.
In the case of the Giants, it maps literally to Mara's comment: "We've done everything possible (spelled out in this article) to screw Daniel up."
And even though they tried to put some veteran QBs and weapons around him, the weapons couldn't stay healthy, and the OL has been a total failure. Then the biggest fail, the staff continuity piece.
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Not following your point. I understand what they did in the 2012 draft. They were exceptionally fortunate that the OL was capable enough in pass protection. I said the NFCCG should have showed that a huge commitment to rebuilding the OL in 2012 and going back to the strong balanced attack built off a top OL. Eli's two greatest strengths were his mind and playing big when the pieces were in place. As he aged why would you try to force him to be something he was not.
LoS - you put up that statement about the running game being 130 yards/game and Eli was in the playoffs. And I was commenting that wasn't always the case...that he made it w/o such a stat. And that they kept trying to give him a better running game but failed.
Yes. Eli won with a lot of different WR's over the years. So if you had a OL of the quality of 2005-2010 he found a way to win. 2011 was fortunate in that Nicks broke out and Cruz came out of nowhere. When they got hurt it was over as a OL/TE/backs was not in place to overcome it.
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In comment 15736984 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Not following your point. I understand what they did in the 2012 draft. They were exceptionally fortunate that the OL was capable enough in pass protection. I said the NFCCG should have showed that a huge commitment to rebuilding the OL in 2012 and going back to the strong balanced attack built off a top OL. Eli's two greatest strengths were his mind and playing big when the pieces were in place. As he aged why would you try to force him to be something he was not.
LoS - you put up that statement about the running game being 130 yards/game and Eli was in the playoffs. And I was commenting that wasn't always the case...that he made it w/o such a stat. And that they kept trying to give him a better running game but failed.
Yes. Eli won with a lot of different WR's over the years. So if you had a OL of the quality of 2005-2010 he found a way to win. 2011 was fortunate in that Nicks broke out and Cruz came out of nowhere. When they got hurt it was over as a OL/TE/backs was not in place to overcome it.
He didn't just need a running game that produced 130 yards to make it to the playoffs. He did it with that and without.
2012-2018 never achieved the 130 mark. The outlier here was 2016 with a top five D performance wise that reverted back by '17.
Seems pretty clear to me which path to take as Eli aged. Seems you disagree.
There is no one person to point the finger at - this team has sucked so bad for a decade; there is ample blame to go around.
As far as DJ is concerned...I've typed it a million times - at this point the best thing for DJ is to move on from the Giants and the best thing for the Giants is to move on from DJ.
No one in the modern NFL takes the kind of beating DJ has with this franchise and turns it around in year 4. It would be the outlier of all outliers.
2012-2018 never achieved the 130 mark. The outlier here was 2016 with a top five D performance wise that reverted back by '17.
Seems pretty clear to me which path to take as Eli aged. Seems you disagree.
Not compelling with all your outliers. 2006 they won 8 games and made playoffs too so why isn't that yet another outlier?
Eli did it with a team made up in many different ways...good running, good passing, good balance, good defense, etc. Of course logic suggests a good running game helps but also keep in mind the passing game in the NFL became far more prevalent for league playoff teams as the Eli-career aged.
just sayin'...
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2005-08 all had over 130 plus and playoff seasons. 2009 did not and no playoffs. '10 did and they had 10 wins with no playoffs (a rare occurrence). 2011 was a outlier.
2012-2018 never achieved the 130 mark. The outlier here was 2016 with a top five D performance wise that reverted back by '17.
Seems pretty clear to me which path to take as Eli aged. Seems you disagree.
Not compelling with all your outliers. 2006 they won 8 games and made playoffs too so why isn't that yet another outlier?
Eli did it with a team made up in many different ways...good running, good passing, good balance, good defense, etc. Of course logic suggests a good running game helps but also keep in mind the passing game in the NFL became far more prevalent for league playoff teams as the Eli-career aged.
just sayin'...
The NFCE was a far different division then. The HC's were Reid, TC, BP and JG's. The QB's were better. The teams were better. Three made the playoffs. You seem to want of keep trying to make a point but not seeing what it is. Time to move on. As I said, we see things differently.
Nevertheless, back to Daniel Jones and how he will become a Franchise QB...
That's a lack of arm strength, folks. So many here don't understand what arm strength is and point to his ability to throw the occasional deep ball as evidence that he has a strong arm. Well, he needs a full windup and planted feet to do that because he cannot rely on his arm alone. He needs full mechanics.
He is not good at throwing on the run, his quick releases have no zip (and poor accuracy) and he is not good at throwing outside the numbers.
To me that is the biggest issue with Jones, and until he improves his arm strength (yes, it's possible, look at Tom Brady) then he is going to struggle.
So honestly, what's the expiration on blame?
Are you guys going to blame Gettleman if Schoen fields a shitty team in 2025?
I'd add, Gettleman took Reese's awful roster and thought he could make a run with it in 2018.
1. Some of the notes are really dumb. Carr was close to his home town? Herbert benefited from Chase Daniels as a backup QB? Who cares.
2. The article is full of post hoc rationalizations. It's easy to say it was a good system fit when the guy is good. If Jones thrived, we would be crediting hiring one of the guys who helped develop Dak Prescott and the signing of #1 receiver Golladay. If Burrow failed, you could blame his offensive line.
I'm a believer in the importance of coaching and development but didn't find this article to be particularly persuasive. I think someone like Josh Allen needed proper development to get to where he is. I think some guys, like Burrow and Herbert, would be great anywhere.
If I were a betting man, my money is on him not being the answer. At the same time, I can't comment on the matter conclusively just yet.
Of course, the game has continued to evolve since 2005. Wilson, Mahomes, and others have raised expectations for young quarterbacks, and contracts for top veteran QBs have become daunting. Still, it might be premature to say time is up after three years. Each case is different, and it's not trivial to distinguish between Ryan Tannehill and Mitch Trubisky.
Dan Schneier is not a Daniel Jones supporter and brings up every negative DJ attribute with play examples and statistics. But even he admits where DJ has talent and has shown ability - such as play action, and touch passes.
Nick Falato offers a view similar to my own where he views Daniel Jones objectively in that he recognizes the weaknesses but puts more emphasis than Dan on positives and seems to be looking for ways forward where DJ can be successful.
They both admit that there are some statistical negatives on Daniel which could be the offense he has been running or his coaching, more than the player (low yards per attempt for example).
The point is, unlike my original post where I am saying the organization is more to blame for Jones' failings than Jones the player, this podcast explains why even with a solid environment and the whole organization behind him, he is still going to be seriously challenged to be successful.
Primarily timing issues - hesitation when making the correct throw in the correct read, failure to process the field quickly to see (or anticipate) multiple levels to find the better passing option (but again we don't know what he has been coached or flat out told to do), and also inaccurate at certain throws (end zone fade).
And of course, injuries.
They discuss a little bit how the new offense could possibly minimize these weaknesses and take advantage of the strengths. Clearly from all we have heard on the new offense, this is a major factor. No kidding, right?
It was late when I listened so I might have been too sleepy to remember but I think they were skeptical about that.
Listen to that podcast because no matter your take on Daniel Jones you will hear things that support your point of view and things that will challenge your point of view. It's a good episode.
Deep Dive on Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
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In comment 15736756 christian said:
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I enjoyed Manning when he played well, and I didn't enjoy Manning when he sucked.
I certainly didn't enjoy when he cried about losing his job, and then when the brain dead organization gave it back to him, he sucked and the team dove into a tail spin.
I would bet good money you didn’t enjoy when he played well either… but can’t prove it either way. You’re not an Eli fan. Sad, but it’s the truth. And again, if you think sticking with Eli is why we are here - you aren’t as smart of a fan as you think you are.
Sticking with Eli might not be why the Giants are where they are. But if you believed Eli was still a winner and not the reason the Giants were such a losing team his final 4 seasons; you can’t make the argument that Jones should have raised the talent level surrounding him with his play
This confirms something I believed all along the anti Eliers are dug in ; Joe in pa; acid test to name a couple. No amount of giants sucking will conivince them. I guess a dug in jones but why would not I be? This guy is a 20 mil qb and six pick? No he is not . And Phil simms played in a different time and was impact player . Jones is not.
Eli sucked? No he didn’t . His 80 something rating was pretty much average. That is not bad for playing behind a line that was just as bad and for playing with a hostile punk for wide receiver. Further the giants defense is decent now. It was horrible when Eli played.
Of course, the game has continued to evolve since 2005. Wilson, Mahomes, and others have raised expectations for young quarterbacks, and contracts for top veteran QBs have become daunting. Still, it might be premature to say time is up after three years. Each case is different, and it's not trivial to distinguish between Ryan Tannehill and Mitch Trubisky.
Now I think I’ve heard everything. Aaron Rodgers sat behind Favre for years. That is why is never “got it going “ in his first few years. Brees had the talent but was splitting time with another qb — Flutie— due to some struggles but mostly a power play move by a coach and GM. Eli was always Eli . He was top five and six in TD and yards for all these horrible years . He struggled it seemed till like the last four minutes of a game when he turned it on. He was a clutch qb who was there when you needed him. Jones just sucks
Sports reporter no one ever heard about says Jones is good and it was a bad team- a prescient, logical, and excellent talent evaluator who we all should attend.
Forget all other previously proffered excuses, it's Jerry Reese's fault going back to 2012 and Eli Manning's fault that Jones sucks.
The excuse-mongering for Daniel Jones beggars the imagination.
Sports reporter no one ever heard about says Jones is good and it was a bad team- a prescient, logical, and excellent talent evaluator who we all should attend.
Forget all other previously proffered excuses, it's Jerry Reese's fault going back to 2012 and Eli Manning's fault that Jones sucks.
The excuse-mongering for Daniel Jones beggars the imagination.
No one said this at all. Way to make shit up
The QB play in the league overall is not great. The QBs have to be in an offense that suits them. Maybe just simply having a better scheme will improve DJs outlook. You can argue that the offense under Judge/Garrett was one of the worst and while under Shurmur Eli/Jones was much better than pre and post Shurmur.
Tired of reading the same arguments. Bottom line is that DJ is probably never going to get into that top 7 of players but you can win with someone in the top 15. Teams that have contunuity and a system can overcome bad QB play. We have not had a successful system in place in a while.
I believe Reese started to unwittingly take Manning for granted, and didn't fully realize how much of the burden Manning carried in 10, 11, and 12. Manning made all his weapons great during that time. If you take Manning out and replace him with a league average QB, those are double digit loss team.
Individually those were talented weapons, but they excelled under Manning. There's plenty of tape of Nicks, Manningham, Nicks, Ballard, etc. saying so.
When Manning couldn't shoulder the load, that luxury was gone -- and the difficulty of building a good offense was too great for Reese.
The Giants should have been aggressively seeking out a top end QB in 2017.
Instead, well, they did what they did.
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It started the moment Manning cried his way back into the lineup in 2017.
What a di(k thing to say. Should they have kept Geno Smith in there? a$$
In a word? Yes.
Eli was done, and Davis certainly was not the answer. Leaving Geno in there makes any new QB not have to be the "guy after the guy" It is far easier to come in and replace Geno than it was to replace Eli.
There was no reason to leave Eli in there other than for sentimental reasons.
On D you had Linval, JPP, Rolle, Ross, Phillips, Osi, Kiwi and Tuck.
They still have not fielded a team with close to that talent since. What the team changed was how they built teams for which Reese takes a good share of the blame.
What is he a rookie of something? Geno is a journey men back up. I’d he isn’t good enough to start on a three win rebuilding Seahawks team he sure isn’t starting material here . (Or the jets and what other ten teams he played for) now I think I’ve heard everything. Fact is what goes for the goose goes for the gander. You can’t say Eli sucked but D Jones is playing on a bad team.
Fact is Eli could have gone to play elsewhere he didn’t want to. Where is d jones going except third string on the eagles or something like that.
By all means, blame Reese until the day he was fired. The point of firing a GM is to bring in new decisionmakers.
If the new heads just do the same thing as the fired guy, that's on the new guy some, yes, but also on upper management.
The Giants tell you out loud that they do things as a collective, so there's no reason not to think ownership had a hand in the failures as well.
2012 to 2022 is a collective failure.
Luck - great runner and great ad-hoc skills
Wentz - excellent arm, very good scrambling ability
Mahomes - great in everything
Allen - elite arm and mobility
LJax - elite mobility and running
Murray - very good arm and elite runner
Burrow - excellent pocket skills and improvisor
Hebert - elite arm, especially on the move, very good mover
I would not say Mac Jones is a "hit" yet. He had a nice rookie season, but too many overrate his success. In QBR and YPA he was middle of the pack. The jury is still out on a QB who doesn't have any elite physical skills.
So, excluding Jones, that's 8 out of 12 - 75% - in the "hits" category who have multiple plus physical skills.
If you only do first rounders, that's 8 out of 10, or 80% who have multiple plus physical skills.
Jones has maybe one plus skill. That's running. And he doesn't do that very well. In today's game, it's just better to have a plus arm and plus ability to make plays when things break down.
I don't deny that having stable team structure is important, but it's not as important as having those plus physical skills. Team structure can't teach the God given ability of the majority of those players.
Daboll will NEVER be able to teach Jones how to make the extemporaneous throws that Allen can make. As much as the Bills coaching staff helped develop Allen, he helped them equally - if not more - with his ability to make plays you can't teach...
I thought after the 2019 season Jones had an Alex Smith ceiling.
I was one of the very few BBIers who felt if you give DumbleDave a 3rd year, Shurmur deserved one too.
In retrospect they should have. And they probably would have learned definitively after the 2020 season, none of them were the answer.
Plenty of ultra talented QB's in traits have failed. Plenty of QB's with limited traits have had very good success. Some have won SB's with very good teams.
In addition to having a poor team around him the biggest issue Jones has is upstairs in dealing with decisions in real time. He has enough physical skills. It's whether or not his mind catches up to the speed of the game. Unlikely at this point but not impossible.
One observation about how the Giants handled the Eli benching: They took the PR hit of ending the streak, they started Geno Smith (!!???), and Geno... played a little better than Eli was playing. Not much, but nonetheless, better, IIRC. So they took a huge PR hit for a small gain with the promise that maybe Smith would improve.
But having already taken the PR hit, the organization seemed to lose its mind (Panicked? I hate that word.) and not only backtracked and put Eli back in, but fired everyone. Which was just dumb. If you're going to stick with Manning no matter what, stick with Manning. If you want to give another guy a chance, give another guy a chance. But don't stick the new guy in, have him play decently and then give up on the experiment.
As for the replacements, replacing McAdoo with Shurmur was arguably an upgrade. Replacing Reese with Gettleman, a downgrade that arguably doomed Shurmur and Judge.
Returning to the nominal thread topic of Daniel Jones: Luck plays a huge role in NFL careers. Tom Brady was lucky. Good, but also lucky. Lots of talented QBs are good but unlucky and end up completely screwed by circumstances. RGIII was unlucky to have landed on a franchise that risked his career for nothing really very important. David Carr, unlucky. To go way back, Jim Plunkett -- unlucky early, lucky late. Daniel Jones so far: Very unlucky. Terrible organization, horrible surrounding cast, constant changes in coaching and awful offenses. So grading him "incomplete" is fair. But does that mean he's going to be better now? Not necessarily. We don't know how much is bad luck and how much is him just not being good. We'll know more in about 6 months, I guess.
He wanted Eli to be the fall guy . How was Geno smith better he didn’t even complete 60perc of his passes.
I just the feeling this prone dug in on the Eli was old and sucked argument.
No matter how many QBs come in here and lose just the same like Geno Smith did against the Raiders when he started ; like Glennon did ; and like D Jones continues to do ; no matter what This would have been a good team but aEli Manning. Yea and proof is all this winning they have been doing without him right . Pff
Your stats are crap, and I don't even understand why you're pushing back on such a basic point. Eli wasn't very good until his first Super Bowl run. He wasn't usually terrible, other than his first four games. There were flashes, like the comeback in Philly, and he was better overall than Daniel Jones. But he wasn't particularly good either. What he showed above all in those early years was that he could take a hit, or throw a pick, and bounce back. That resilience in the face of physical punishment and other adversity made Eli great. Resilience remains among the open questions about Jones, and the early signs are not encouraging.
Your stats are crap, and I don't even understand why you're pushing back on such a basic point. Eli wasn't very good until his first Super Bowl run. He wasn't usually terrible, other than his first four games. There were flashes, like the comeback in Philly, and he was better overall than Daniel Jones. But he wasn't particularly good either. What he showed above all in those early years was that he could take a hit, or throw a pick, and bounce back. That resilience in the face of physical punishment and other adversity made Eli great. Resilience remains among the open questions about Jones, and the early signs are not encouraging.
Your stats are crap. you are revising history to drag down Eli to make D Jones into something but what he is: a bottom tier QB.
In 2005 Eli had the 4th most TDs with 24.
In 2005 he was 5th with 3762 yards.
In 2006 he was 4th again with that same 24.
Nothing has changed since clown Gettleman drafted this guy. Nothing. All the NFL execs got it right. All the journalists that were like " he is not a 6th pick and this will set the Giants back years" got it right. Re-writing history about ELi doesn't change that and doesn't change what Jones is , he's a loser that never won anything.
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Carson Palmer was 10th at 26. Eli did tie for the lead in INTs, as well as INT % among qualifiers.
Your stats are crap, and I don't even understand why you're pushing back on such a basic point. Eli wasn't very good until his first Super Bowl run. He wasn't usually terrible, other than his first four games. There were flashes, like the comeback in Philly, and he was better overall than Daniel Jones. But he wasn't particularly good either. What he showed above all in those early years was that he could take a hit, or throw a pick, and bounce back. That resilience in the face of physical punishment and other adversity made Eli great. Resilience remains among the open questions about Jones, and the early signs are not encouraging.
I also find it comical that Eli wasn't good until he took a pretty good football team -- not as great as many make them out to be for Jones-excuse purposes-- carried them on his back ; played pretty much lights out; and defeated 10 point favorite and best coach and QB combo in the history of the sport. And was a SM MVP while doing it. Yea but other than that he sucked.But D Jones gets a pass WTF.
When has Jones ever played against an elite QB and out played them ?
Manning had the capacity to play terrible football, including the four interception game against the Vikings in late 2007.
It all clicked thereafter, but he was in teetering on the edge.
It's funny to think back to a time when the Giants had decently high standards for QB play. That time ended somewhere around 2017.
Peyton
75-110-838-6-1
Eli
61-107-799-4-6
I am not seeing the statistical dominance of which you speak. More to the point, Peyton won all three games. The first was close, with Eli arguably outplaying Peyton after a slow start. The others were not close at all. The 2010 game was the weird one where Perry Fewell went all-in to take away the pass. Addai and Brown ran at will, and Peyton still put up nice numbers.
Nobody is denigrating Eli here. Yes, he finished in multi-way ties for fourth place in TD passes in 2005 and 2006. Some of those touchdowns foreshadowed his eventual greatness. The greatness came later, starting in Week 17 of the 2007 season. I’m not predicting a similar ascent for Daniel Jones. That would be nuts. I’m just not inclined to predict how much he can or will improve.
I still wish you hadn't given up on Glennon.
You know back then when this team would go 0-2 to start a season , the expectations are that heads would roll. A qb and a head coach were pretty much expected to find another jobs. Now it’s like “well at least he isn’t Turing the ball over”. And this team sucks so might as well let him start some more and see if a miracle happens and d jones becomes something other than what he has been his whole career.
You guys and this goofball Mara are still holding out hope for this loser
They drafted a QB at 6 and Mara is going to be damn certain that he is going to get his moneys worth.
Last 7 years of Eli’s career? Does that include his 2015 pro bowl season? But I get it the giants sucked those years so you’re dug in on it being Eli’s fault and he was never that good either even at the start.
You mention Glennon . Glennon was there because he was never meant to be a threat to jones. When that plan blew up in maras face ; he brought in TTaylor with expectation that he never leave the bench unless jones is hurt. Mara just won’t let go of the idea that d jones is a sunk cost so we have to endure another year of terrible football
Peyton
75-110-838-6-1
Eli
61-107-799-4-6
I am not seeing the statistical dominance of which you speak.
Maybe you just don't want to see it? I have no idea what yoyur numbers are . Are you tallying all 3 games they played over the course of 16 year careers?
I thought we were talking about pre 2007 Eli or in other words the first game they played where Eli's passer rating was like 10 points higher than Peytons. Has Jones ever gone up against a QB that was argunably the best to ever play and have a 10 point higher passer rating?
I still wish you hadn't given up on Glennon.
Lol. I’m regards to giving up, I have, on him being a troll. I’ve accepted this is actually who he is, sadly.
Sports reporter no one ever heard about says Jones is good and it was a bad team- a prescient, logical, and excellent talent evaluator who we all should attend.
Forget all other previously proffered excuses, it's Jerry Reese's fault going back to 2012 and Eli Manning's fault that Jones sucks.
The excuse-mongering for Daniel Jones beggars the imagination.
If you're referring to Emory Hunt, who also bashed Justin Herbert and praised Jalen Hurts in the process, then you're off base. He provide zero analysis and attributed nothing but false information.
EXACTLY.
We have a bunch of college games and 3 years of professional games.
We can evaluate what happened.
The people saying,
"We can't properly evaluate Jones"
Are idiots.
END OF STORY.
No more information is needed.
They are saying that shit because they at one time predicted Jones was going to be the shit and now they are so pathetic of a human, that they can't admit they were wrong about a football prediction.
No one cares, your football acumen is not in question.
We don't have any experts here.(Maybe a couple guys, you know who you are. I do not put myself in that group)
Jones will have significantly better stats in 2022 because I could exceed his 2021 production. It was that pitiful.
Jones is JAG. With great talent and scheme he will win some games. He elevates no one. Giving a second contract to that is stupid. I would rather risk an unknown.
If you are really telling me that before Eli was in the playoffs in 2007 he was the same thing that we see now -- you really need to check yourself.
So unless Eli was playing better than every QB that post season ; all time greats and legends of the game than he was pretty much a scrub. He threw for for yards with 854 ; tied Brady with more TDs with 6 (while only having one Int) had a rating of 96 . So unless he was outplaying Rivers ; Favre ; Brady ; Peyton . Unless he was doing that than he and Jones are like the same thing . YEA RIGHT!
EXACTLY.
We have a bunch of college games and 3 years of professional games.
We can evaluate what happened.
The people saying,
"We can't properly evaluate Jones"
Are idiots.
END OF STORY.
No more information is needed.
They are saying that shit because they at one time predicted Jones was going to be the shit and now they are so pathetic of a human, that they can't admit they were wrong about a football prediction.
No one cares, your football acumen is not in question.
We don't have any experts here.(Maybe a couple guys, you know who you are. I do not put myself in that group)
Jones will have significantly better stats in 2022 because I could exceed his 2021 production. It was that pitiful.
Jones is JAG. With great talent and scheme he will win some games. He elevates no one. Giving a second contract to that is stupid. I would rather risk an unknown.
I was definitely wrong on Jones. Thought he'd be able to bounce back from his bad year 2 but didn't. Shame on me I guess (not really, i'm just a fan with no impact on the games).
But our GM and HC seem to disagree with you and want to see what he does this year. So no matter how much you hate reading about all the fans wanting to see Jones with a better OL and weapons, just know that those running the team do too. We had 3+ rounds of opportunities to bring in a rookie with pro talent and didn't - I disagree with not doing it, but it is what it is. How much more can this be discussed?
Your fixation on a single game in 2006, a loss in which the Giants our-rushed Indy scored 21 points and never led, and couldn’t mount a drive with the the game on the line, is odd.
None of this diminishes what Eli became, nor does it mean Jones will ever sniff his level.
But I completely agree, there’s a perfectly reasonable argument Jones can make a leap (to some degree).
And if the counter argument is Manning was awesome his first three years — look no further than either of his games vs. Minnesota.
I think the reality is Manning took the leap from maddeningly inconsistent, to clutch. And Jones’s leap will be from rarely adequate to very average.
D Jones is just what he is until he proves otherwise and that is pretty much the second to worst QB in the NFL according to off advance stat expected wins category.
Everyone can look back and find something wrong with all of the QBs I’ve mentioned — Phil Simms , Eli , tannehill , even Peyton Manning . He had a pretty rough go his first few playoff games.
The point is you can’t just find fault and grade D Jones on a huge curve. The point is all of those guys had real moments where they played beyond what their normal rank would indicate.
Phil Simms had coach Walsh tell him he would be a hall of famer and shows up on a bad team that won 5/6 of his first starts. Tannehill shows up on the advance stats expected wins thing as third best qb in the NFL. Eli was too 5 / 6 in the NFL in yards and TDS in his first few years in the league and Cousins is pretty much a top 11 qb in the NFL no idea where that comparison is coming from.
There is nothing that Jones has that you can say is above his rank . Ever. Hes is just not an NFL qb. Not a starter anyway. I’ll stop saying this when we get frankly realistic about his accomplishments and other QBs and move on from this night mare
D Jones is just what he is until he proves otherwise and that is pretty much the second to worst QB in the NFL according to off advance stat expected wins category.
Everyone can look back and find something wrong with all of the QBs I’ve mentioned — Phil Simms , Eli , tannehill , even Peyton Manning . He had a pretty rough go his first few playoff games.
The point is you can’t just find fault and grade D Jones on a huge curve. The point is all of those guys had real moments where they played beyond what their normal rank would indicate.
Phil Simms had coach Walsh tell him he would be a hall of famer and shows up on a bad team that won 5/6 of his first starts. Tannehill shows up on the advance stats expected wins thing as third best qb in the NFL. Eli was too 5 / 6 in the NFL in yards and TDS in his first few years in the league and Cousins is pretty much a top 11 qb in the NFL no idea where that comparison is coming from.
There is nothing that Jones has that you can say is above his rank . Ever. Hes is just not an NFL qb. Not a starter anyway. I’ll stop saying this when we get frankly realistic about his accomplishments and other QBs and move on from this night mare
Now year #2 he has film on him and teams see what he can and can't do as well. The defenses adjust. Jones has a new offense and no camp and starts 0 -4. Jones has key drops which cost him a shot at the division title despite a horrific OL and lack of Barkley and receivers at times due to injury.
Year #3 there is enough camp but again a horrific OL and injuries hurt him. Jones stats with time are pretty good actually.
Jones isn't elite 8. He just isn't. But he is better than his performance to date and I think that will come out this year under this regime. I predict he plays well enough to get tagged for a year.
FML
In comment 15737102 sb from NYT Forum said:
That's a lack of arm strength, folks. So many here don't understand what arm strength is and point to his ability to throw the occasional deep ball as evidence that he has a strong arm. Well, he needs a full windup and planted feet to do that because he cannot rely on his arm alone. He needs full mechanics.
He is not good at throwing on the run, his quick releases have no zip (and poor accuracy) and he is not good at throwing outside the numbers.
To me that is the biggest issue with Jones, and until he improves his arm strength (yes, it's possible, look at Tom Brady) then he is going to struggle.
In comment 15737068 Jimmy Googs said:
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2005-08 all had over 130 plus and playoff seasons. 2009 did not and no playoffs. '10 did and they had 10 wins with no playoffs (a rare occurrence). 2011 was a outlier.
2012-2018 never achieved the 130 mark. The outlier here was 2016 with a top five D performance wise that reverted back by '17.
Seems pretty clear to me which path to take as Eli aged. Seems you disagree.
Not compelling with all your outliers. 2006 they won 8 games and made playoffs too so why isn't that yet another outlier?
Eli did it with a team made up in many different ways...good running, good passing, good balance, good defense, etc. Of course logic suggests a good running game helps but also keep in mind the passing game in the NFL became far more prevalent for league playoff teams as the Eli-career aged.
just sayin'...
Sick of this BS from the haters.
Its outrageous.
In comment 15737316 Debaser said:
What is he a rookie of something? Geno is a journey men back up. I’d he isn’t good enough to start on a three win rebuilding Seahawks team he sure isn’t starting material here . (Or the jets and what other ten teams he played for) now I think I’ve heard everything. Fact is what goes for the goose goes for the gander. You can’t say Eli sucked but D Jones is playing on a bad team.
Fact is Eli could have gone to play elsewhere he didn’t want to. Where is d jones going except third string on the eagles or something like that.
Sick of this BS from the haters.
There's plenty of blame to go around, it's just that us "haters" give DJ a piece of the blame pie instead of trying to blame everyone else but him
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I enjoyed Manning when he played well, and I didn't enjoy Manning when he sucked.
I certainly didn't enjoy when he cried about losing his job, and then when the brain dead organization gave it back to him, he sucked and the team dove into a tail spin.
I would bet good money you didn’t enjoy when he played well either… but can’t prove it either way. You’re not an Eli fan. Sad, but it’s the truth. And again, if you think sticking with Eli is why we are here - you aren’t as smart of a fan as you think you are.
Considering you weren't on BBI until August of 2021, which is 2+ years after Eli retired, I'm curious how you can opine on anyone's feelings toward Eli during his career.
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We know EXACTLY what Jones is.
EXACTLY.
We have a bunch of college games and 3 years of professional games.
We can evaluate what happened.
The people saying,
"We can't properly evaluate Jones"
Are idiots.
END OF STORY.
No more information is needed.
They are saying that shit because they at one time predicted Jones was going to be the shit and now they are so pathetic of a human, that they can't admit they were wrong about a football prediction.
No one cares, your football acumen is not in question.
We don't have any experts here.(Maybe a couple guys, you know who you are. I do not put myself in that group)
Jones will have significantly better stats in 2022 because I could exceed his 2021 production. It was that pitiful.
Jones is JAG. With great talent and scheme he will win some games. He elevates no one. Giving a second contract to that is stupid. I would rather risk an unknown.
I was definitely wrong on Jones. Thought he'd be able to bounce back from his bad year 2 but didn't. Shame on me I guess (not really, i'm just a fan with no impact on the games).
But our GM and HC seem to disagree with you and want to see what he does this year. So no matter how much you hate reading about all the fans wanting to see Jones with a better OL and weapons, just know that those running the team do too. We had 3+ rounds of opportunities to bring in a rookie with pro talent and didn't - I disagree with not doing it, but it is what it is. How much more can this be discussed?
Systematically, I think he will do well this year. Where I have sincere doubts is when shit doesn't happen on schedule. In golf terms, I feel like he "grips it" when the pressure increases situationally and actively.
I saw it at Duke and have seen it for three years. I don't feel that light is going to go on. I think he will perform better this year. It would take a monster year to want to sign him to another contract. I wouldn't actually, If he has that monster year, I franchise him and make him do it again.
I apologize for the overly strong take though. It doesn't make anyone an idiot because they believe differently than I. Ashamed of my post.
Be patient. I think they have a plan. Although they have said positive things about Jones like his work ethic nothing has been said either by words or action that tells us they strongly think they have the right QB imv.
Hopefully, that day is coming very soon.
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You'd be hard pressed to find a single poster who believes Reese did a good job managing the team from 2012 - 2017. Everyone knows he did a bad job, and he got fired.
So honestly, what's the expiration on blame?
Are you guys going to blame Gettleman if Schoen fields a shitty team in 2025?
Most good teams have guys that are 6-7-8 year veterans which would overlap with Reese’s tenure - so the blame sure as hell stays with him partially. And DG is far from blameless either. They’re both culprits.
And if this team stinks in 2025 like you said - Gettleman sure as shit would deserve some of the blame, absolutely.
If Reese did such a terrible job, why didn't Gettleman immediately begin a tear-down rebuild when he took over?
Either Reese didn't leave the cupboard completely bare, or if he did, Gettleman was an even worse GM than Reese for not only not recognizing that, but further compounding it.
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In comment 15736953 christian said:
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You'd be hard pressed to find a single poster who believes Reese did a good job managing the team from 2012 - 2017. Everyone knows he did a bad job, and he got fired.
So honestly, what's the expiration on blame?
Are you guys going to blame Gettleman if Schoen fields a shitty team in 2025?
Most good teams have guys that are 6-7-8 year veterans which would overlap with Reese’s tenure - so the blame sure as hell stays with him partially. And DG is far from blameless either. They’re both culprits.
And if this team stinks in 2025 like you said - Gettleman sure as shit would deserve some of the blame, absolutely.
If Reese did such a terrible job, why didn't Gettleman immediately begin a tear-down rebuild when he took over?
Either Reese didn't leave the cupboard completely bare, or if he did, Gettleman was an even worse GM than Reese for not only not recognizing that, but further compounding it.
Didn’t DG do a tear down? Traded Beckham after a year. Got rid of Hart/Flowers. I can’t recall but didn’t he let DRC or Jackrabbit go? Didn’t resign Collins after a year. I know he traded snacks And traded JPP as well.
Listen if you want to say DGs 4 years were worse than Reese’s last 5 years… I am not going to argue. My argument that this ineptness started around 2013. Reese didn’t leave DG with much and DG certainly made it worse. That’s my point. Does Reese deserve all of the blame for what’s happening now? No but he gets part of the blame which dwindles each year. I mean we have 1 player left in this team and it could be argued he should be cut too left from his tenure. That’s really sad.
You take away his fumbles his rookie year and his passing stats were excellent especially for a rookie. He was #2 all camp and thrown into the fray. Impressive but learning on th job is never easy.
Another bbi myth Jones had this great rookie year. He turned the ball over 39 times and just like you’d expect lost a lot of football games. He then compiled meaningless stats that not one time resulted in a come from behind win.
That is supposed to compare to Phil Simms winning his first five games when got the start on a bad Giants team his rookie year?
All of Eli Mannings supposed bad play on account of all the giants losses are supposed to compare jones 39 turnovers?
Eli had a decent passer rating ; played behind s horrible oline as well and with some really bad defenses as well; but he sucks because the giants lost. But d jones gets a pass. Is this a joke? D jones has 2 channels ; turnovers and garbage time stats or few turnovers and no touchdowns.
I agree with you about Jones’s 2019 season. He showed some good things, but was not good overall.
There is something to the idea that the organization screwed up by keeping Eli at the top of the depth chart, depriving Jones of valuable first-team reps. In hindsight, I would say they should have cut ties with Eli in March 2019, rather than pay his roster bonus, let alone his salary. But that wasn’t going to happen, so there’s no point belaboring it. And nobody could have anticipated how COVID would reshape 2020. But other young QBs like Herbert and Burrow have overcome these issues, so I agree with your key point that they don’t excuse Jones’s shortcomings.
Hopefully, that day is coming very soon.
+1000