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This article lays out the pro Daniel Jones argument

D HOS : 6/20/2022 9:44 pm
No idea who Nolan Murt is, but he does some analysis of QB hits vs misses and lays out pretty well the pro Daniel Jones argument (or more generally, the "no qb could succeed here" argument) even while this article classifies Jones himself in the "jury still out" category.

I believe in this approach, summarized below (the article goes into a lot more detail).

Perhaps the counter point would be that this is legacy thinking and that in today's game, basketball on turf, you need to identify that superior quick minded, quick reaction agile athlete in the point guard QB position whose natural gifts can succeed right away, no matter how terrible the surroundings are.

I get that counter point, but I would say that those QB's are too rare to plan for one.

If the factors claimed for the QB's in this article are accurate and not subjective, and from the limited I know about these other QB situations, they seem to be pretty accurate, it does appear to support the conclusion that first developing a good environment, then making the right draft selection at the right time (and subsequent handling of the player) are a surer path to a "good" QB than hoping to find that rare "can win no matter what" QB. Seems kind of obvious to me.

Also, look at the factors listed for the QB's classified as "hits". Say what you want about DJ's talent, but did he have any of those factors at all outside of his first year? Even if one grants that there are talent differences, look at all of the advantages those successful QB's had. Now look at the factors for the unsuccessful ones. Outside of injury, it's pretty stark, the difference. The Giants lately offer more of the factors of the unsuccessful QB's than the successful ones.

Makes "no QB could succeed here" seem pretty on point. Given that, do we point at DJ or the team as the problem with the QB position and the offense in general, ultimately wins vs losses.

Think back to Shoen's comments on evaluating QB's from outside your system - for bad plays you can't really say when and if the QB is to blame vs other players vs the play call vs the offense, because you just don't know what was supposed to happen.

Combine those two points of view and honestly, we don't know what we have in DJ at all, other than little hints here and there - both good and bad. Therefore as we've all been saying, this is his audition - this is his true test.

Quote:

The two-phase quest begins with the development environment’s careful construction, its own process that begins a year or two before the quarterback enters the building. It involves identifying the right staff to develop the quarterback, weaponizing and fortifying the offense with skill position and offensive line talent and preparing to adapt the system to match the skillset of the quarterback.

The selection made in the draft is not the end of the quest, but the beginning of its second phase, the developmental phase, another multi-year process during which the collaboration of the three component themes within the development environment is of utmost importance. As demonstrated above, all three of the component themes coexist in symbiotic relationships. They work together. They feed off each other.

If this two-phase quest is done correctly, the odds of hitting on this paramount pick, the drafting of the franchise quarterback, are significantly increased. After all, as this research indicates, the hits aren’t made in the selection process; the hits are made in the development process. Even the most promising young mango tree in the world requires a confluence of factors to reach its fruit-bearing potential.


"the hits aren’t made in the selection process; the hits are made in the development process."

We have had an awful development process.

It seems like the new staff would agree with this philosophy and maybe are trying to compress that into the one offseason they have with Jones.

I guess the take away for me here is, if Jones doesn't earn his spot after this season, it does seem like we are building a good environment for any credible QB talent to come in and be at his best. That's really good for the Giants' future.


The Secret to Finding a Franchise Quarterback: Part 1 - ( New Window )
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RE: ...  
Brown_Hornet : 6/21/2022 10:47 am : link
In comment 15736923 christian said:
Quote:
When does the clock expire on Jerry Reese blame?

I ask this is in all seriousness. He hasn't worked here in five years.

There are several posts on this thread bemoaning decisions he made 11 offseasons ago.

There is one player on this roster he chose.
IMV, Reese is relevant only as a reminder of how poorly the Giants management history has been. He is irrelevant with regards to how the team is constructed today.

So for historical reference, sure but JR in the rearview.
RE: Pretty easy formula for Eli  
Jimmy Googs : 6/21/2022 10:49 am : link
In comment 15736865 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
running game that gets 130 plus per game. Playoffs.

The big mistake they made was not reverting back to building a outstanding running game. Eli with two outstanding WR's (2011) and a very good 3rd with a still functional pass blocking OL produced a SB. When that OL could was no longer functional and both Nicks and Cruz got hurt it was over. After taking 20 plus hits in the 2011 NFCCG the Giants response was Wilson, Randle, Hosley, and JPP TE's. That doesn't show a franchise who knew the team or its QB very well imv.

They never recovered.


Huh?

Eli made playoffs and won Super Bowls with a good running games and good passing games. RBs and WRs were taken over the years that followed that NFCCG trying to do it again.

It never happened because the OL became a joke, those offensive playmakers weren't nearly good as who they were replacing and Eli also moved into decline mode as the years wore on until he was replaced.

RE: ...  
GNewGiants : 6/21/2022 10:50 am : link
In comment 15736953 christian said:
Quote:
You'd be hard pressed to find a single poster who believes Reese did a good job managing the team from 2012 - 2017. Everyone knows he did a bad job, and he got fired.

So honestly, what's the expiration on blame?

Are you guys going to blame Gettleman if Schoen fields a shitty team in 2025?


Most good teams have guys that are 6-7-8 year veterans which would overlap with Reese’s tenure - so the blame sure as hell stays with him partially. And DG is far from blameless either. They’re both culprits.

And if this team stinks in 2025 like you said - Gettleman sure as shit would deserve some of the blame, absolutely.
RE: ...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/21/2022 10:55 am : link
In comment 15736923 christian said:
Quote:
When does the clock expire on Jerry Reese blame?

I ask this is in all seriousness. He hasn't worked here in five years.

There are several posts on this thread bemoaning decisions he made 11 offseasons ago.

There is one player on this roster he chose.


It already has. This is fluff and excuses. Dave Gettlemen spent hundreds of millions of dollars of cap space and top 10 draft picks and blew it all for historic losing. This has nothing to do with Reese.
RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 6/21/2022 10:56 am : link
In comment 15736953 christian said:
Quote:


Are you guys going to blame Gettleman if Schoen fields a shitty team in 2025?


Some will of course.

Speaking for myself, I want to keep giving Gettleman at least some shite until they raise another Lombardi. But mostly to the chuckleheads that supported him for the last 4 years.

:-)
Googs  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/21/2022 10:58 am : link
Not following your point. I understand what they did in the 2012 draft. They were exceptionally fortunate that the OL was capable enough in pass protection. I said the NFCCG should have showed that a huge commitment to rebuilding the OL in 2012 and going back to the strong balanced attack built off a top OL. Eli's two greatest strengths were his mind and playing big when the pieces were in place. As he aged why would you try to force him to be something he was not.
RE: RE: ...  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/21/2022 11:03 am : link
In comment 15736977 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15736923 christian said:


Quote:


When does the clock expire on Jerry Reese blame?

I ask this is in all seriousness. He hasn't worked here in five years.

There are several posts on this thread bemoaning decisions he made 11 offseasons ago.

There is one player on this roster he chose.




It already has. This is fluff and excuses. Dave Gettlemen spent hundreds of millions of dollars of cap space and top 10 draft picks and blew it all for historic losing. This has nothing to do with Reese.


He had to replace Flowers. He had to replace Apple. Imagine starting with a Peters or Smith at LT in place and what path could have taken. Even with Flowers they tried him at RT. I still remember his opening drive against Jax at RT. Heck of trip. Then a hold.
RE: Googs  
Jimmy Googs : 6/21/2022 11:03 am : link
In comment 15736984 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Not following your point. I understand what they did in the 2012 draft. They were exceptionally fortunate that the OL was capable enough in pass protection. I said the NFCCG should have showed that a huge commitment to rebuilding the OL in 2012 and going back to the strong balanced attack built off a top OL. Eli's two greatest strengths were his mind and playing big when the pieces were in place. As he aged why would you try to force him to be something he was not.


LoS - you put up that statement about the running game being 130 yards/game and Eli was in the playoffs. And I was commenting that wasn't always the case...that he made it w/o such a stat. And that they kept trying to give him a better running game but failed.
RE: RE: ...  
GNewGiants : 6/21/2022 11:06 am : link
In comment 15736977 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:

It already has. This is fluff and excuses. Jerry Reese spent hundreds of millions of dollars of cap space and top 10 draft picks and blew it all for historic losing.


Fixed it for you.

When Reese left - there was not one unit that was even average. Hell, I would argue we only had ONE. Above average player when Reese left and that player publicly wanted out.

I could argue we were worse off after Reese was fired then when DG left. How pathetic is that?
I promise not to blame Dave Gettleman if the team still stinks in 2026  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/21/2022 11:07 am : link
If you look at the NFC champions each year from 2015-2020, and where those teams were just a few years earlier, the "statute of limitations" on terrible GM work seems pretty short. At this point, absolving Jerry Reese of the team's current state doesn't require defending the job he did between 2012 and 2017. It's simply too long ago to matter all that much.

Did selections like Flowers and Apple have a lasting impact? Sure. But the failure of those picks also contributed to the Giants picking second in 2018, sixth in 2019, and fourth in 2020. Anyway, Gettleman took the gig, and all that came with it. Maybe he deserves a pass for 2018, though I push back even on that because he embraced (or pretended to) the "win with Eli" concept.
That's a great article  
David B. : 6/21/2022 11:13 am : link
It's amazing how many teams don't understand these seemingly OBVIOUS concepts. Or choose to ignore them.

In the case of the Giants, it maps literally to Mara's comment: "We've done everything possible (spelled out in this article) to screw Daniel up."

And even though they tried to put some veteran QBs and weapons around him, the weapons couldn't stay healthy, and the OL has been a total failure. Then the biggest fail, the staff continuity piece.
RE: RE: Googs  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/21/2022 11:14 am : link
In comment 15736999 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15736984 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


Not following your point. I understand what they did in the 2012 draft. They were exceptionally fortunate that the OL was capable enough in pass protection. I said the NFCCG should have showed that a huge commitment to rebuilding the OL in 2012 and going back to the strong balanced attack built off a top OL. Eli's two greatest strengths were his mind and playing big when the pieces were in place. As he aged why would you try to force him to be something he was not.



LoS - you put up that statement about the running game being 130 yards/game and Eli was in the playoffs. And I was commenting that wasn't always the case...that he made it w/o such a stat. And that they kept trying to give him a better running game but failed.


Yes. Eli won with a lot of different WR's over the years. So if you had a OL of the quality of 2005-2010 he found a way to win. 2011 was fortunate in that Nicks broke out and Cruz came out of nowhere. When they got hurt it was over as a OL/TE/backs was not in place to overcome it.




I don't know what DJ is. But I know that Eli since 2013  
Blue21 : 6/21/2022 11:24 am : link
Until he retired he had 7 losing seasons. Eli's fault? Nope. He didn't have the talent he needed around him to succeed. They wasted his years. And the problem continued.
RE: RE: RE: Googs  
Jimmy Googs : 6/21/2022 11:26 am : link
In comment 15737019 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
In comment 15736999 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15736984 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


Not following your point. I understand what they did in the 2012 draft. They were exceptionally fortunate that the OL was capable enough in pass protection. I said the NFCCG should have showed that a huge commitment to rebuilding the OL in 2012 and going back to the strong balanced attack built off a top OL. Eli's two greatest strengths were his mind and playing big when the pieces were in place. As he aged why would you try to force him to be something he was not.



LoS - you put up that statement about the running game being 130 yards/game and Eli was in the playoffs. And I was commenting that wasn't always the case...that he made it w/o such a stat. And that they kept trying to give him a better running game but failed.



Yes. Eli won with a lot of different WR's over the years. So if you had a OL of the quality of 2005-2010 he found a way to win. 2011 was fortunate in that Nicks broke out and Cruz came out of nowhere. When they got hurt it was over as a OL/TE/backs was not in place to overcome it.





He didn't just need a running game that produced 130 yards to make it to the playoffs. He did it with that and without.

Googs  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/21/2022 11:32 am : link
2005-08 all had over 130 plus and playoff seasons. 2009 did not and no playoffs. '10 did and they had 10 wins with no playoffs (a rare occurrence). 2011 was a outlier.

2012-2018 never achieved the 130 mark. The outlier here was 2016 with a top five D performance wise that reverted back by '17.

Seems pretty clear to me which path to take as Eli aged. Seems you disagree.
The NY Giants 2012 - 2022 should be a case study  
Dnew15 : 6/21/2022 11:40 am : link
in systemic collapse amongst professional sports organizations.

There is no one person to point the finger at - this team has sucked so bad for a decade; there is ample blame to go around.

As far as DJ is concerned...I've typed it a million times - at this point the best thing for DJ is to move on from the Giants and the best thing for the Giants is to move on from DJ.

No one in the modern NFL takes the kind of beating DJ has with this franchise and turns it around in year 4. It would be the outlier of all outliers.

RE: Googs  
Jimmy Googs : 6/21/2022 11:43 am : link
In comment 15737052 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
2005-08 all had over 130 plus and playoff seasons. 2009 did not and no playoffs. '10 did and they had 10 wins with no playoffs (a rare occurrence). 2011 was a outlier.

2012-2018 never achieved the 130 mark. The outlier here was 2016 with a top five D performance wise that reverted back by '17.

Seems pretty clear to me which path to take as Eli aged. Seems you disagree.


Not compelling with all your outliers. 2006 they won 8 games and made playoffs too so why isn't that yet another outlier?

Eli did it with a team made up in many different ways...good running, good passing, good balance, good defense, etc. Of course logic suggests a good running game helps but also keep in mind the passing game in the NFL became far more prevalent for league playoff teams as the Eli-career aged.

just sayin'...
RE: RE: Googs  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/21/2022 11:53 am : link
In comment 15737068 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15737052 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


2005-08 all had over 130 plus and playoff seasons. 2009 did not and no playoffs. '10 did and they had 10 wins with no playoffs (a rare occurrence). 2011 was a outlier.

2012-2018 never achieved the 130 mark. The outlier here was 2016 with a top five D performance wise that reverted back by '17.

Seems pretty clear to me which path to take as Eli aged. Seems you disagree.



Not compelling with all your outliers. 2006 they won 8 games and made playoffs too so why isn't that yet another outlier?

Eli did it with a team made up in many different ways...good running, good passing, good balance, good defense, etc. Of course logic suggests a good running game helps but also keep in mind the passing game in the NFL became far more prevalent for league playoff teams as the Eli-career aged.

just sayin'...


The NFCE was a far different division then. The HC's were Reid, TC, BP and JG's. The QB's were better. The teams were better. Three made the playoffs. You seem to want of keep trying to make a point but not seeing what it is. Time to move on. As I said, we see things differently.
Eli's teams got worse on both sides of the ball after those  
Jimmy Googs : 6/21/2022 11:57 am : link
Super Bowls, and so did he. It wasn't some secret formula of a 130 yard/game running attack that ensured success, albeit generally a helpful aspect to some teams if efficient.

Nevertheless, back to Daniel Jones and how he will become a Franchise QB...
Does the article mention Jones's slow release time?  
sb from NYT Forum : 6/21/2022 12:12 pm : link
...Or that he needs to fully plant his feet to get any velocity and depth on his throws?

That's a lack of arm strength, folks. So many here don't understand what arm strength is and point to his ability to throw the occasional deep ball as evidence that he has a strong arm. Well, he needs a full windup and planted feet to do that because he cannot rely on his arm alone. He needs full mechanics.

He is not good at throwing on the run, his quick releases have no zip (and poor accuracy) and he is not good at throwing outside the numbers.

To me that is the biggest issue with Jones, and until he improves his arm strength (yes, it's possible, look at Tom Brady) then he is going to struggle.
RE: ...  
BrettNYG10 : 6/21/2022 12:16 pm : link
In comment 15736953 christian said:
Quote:
You'd be hard pressed to find a single poster who believes Reese did a good job managing the team from 2012 - 2017. Everyone knows he did a bad job, and he got fired.

So honestly, what's the expiration on blame?

Are you guys going to blame Gettleman if Schoen fields a shitty team in 2025?


I'd add, Gettleman took Reese's awful roster and thought he could make a run with it in 2018.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 6/21/2022 12:23 pm : link
I read the article and thought it was weak.

1. Some of the notes are really dumb. Carr was close to his home town? Herbert benefited from Chase Daniels as a backup QB? Who cares.

2. The article is full of post hoc rationalizations. It's easy to say it was a good system fit when the guy is good. If Jones thrived, we would be crediting hiring one of the guys who helped develop Dak Prescott and the signing of #1 receiver Golladay. If Burrow failed, you could blame his offensive line.

I'm a believer in the importance of coaching and development but didn't find this article to be particularly persuasive. I think someone like Josh Allen needed proper development to get to where he is. I think some guys, like Burrow and Herbert, would be great anywhere.
DJ has provided necessary evidence  
UberAlias : 6/21/2022 12:27 pm : link
but not sufficient evidence, that he is not our answer at QB. In other words, if he is not the answer, what he has shown thus far is consistent with the notion and meets the criteria of a necessary condition for demonstrating that he is not the answer. But I would also say that there has not been sufficient evidence to conclude with certainty as the conditions around him, including talent and coaching/playcalling, have been so abysmal that it is possible that all of that is the primary reason for the poor performance, opposed to Jones himself, and there have been a few moments where he has flashed.

If I were a betting man, my money is on him not being the answer. At the same time, I can't comment on the matter conclusively just yet.
Eli Manning mostly didn't play to his draft status until Dec.29, 2007.  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/21/2022 12:33 pm : link
There were lots of reasons, all beyond the scope of this discussion. But since Eli hangs over all assessments of Daniel Jones, here's one reason I try to stay humble in judging young quarterbacks: among the recent wave of Hall of Fame QBs, at least three - Eli, Brees, and Rodgers - accomplished very little in their first three seasons, under varying circumstances. Another slow starter, Philip Rivers, went 14-2 in year three after sitting for two seasons; but that team ran over people, rushing for over 160 YPG and 32 (!) TDs, and sacking opponents 61 times.

Of course, the game has continued to evolve since 2005. Wilson, Mahomes, and others have raised expectations for young quarterbacks, and contracts for top veteran QBs have become daunting. Still, it might be premature to say time is up after three years. Each case is different, and it's not trivial to distinguish between Ryan Tannehill and Mitch Trubisky.
For another really good perspective on Daniel Jones  
D HOS : 6/21/2022 12:47 pm : link
Listen to the Big Blue Banter podcast from last Thursday, the deep dive on Daniel Jones.

Dan Schneier is not a Daniel Jones supporter and brings up every negative DJ attribute with play examples and statistics. But even he admits where DJ has talent and has shown ability - such as play action, and touch passes.

Nick Falato offers a view similar to my own where he views Daniel Jones objectively in that he recognizes the weaknesses but puts more emphasis than Dan on positives and seems to be looking for ways forward where DJ can be successful.

They both admit that there are some statistical negatives on Daniel which could be the offense he has been running or his coaching, more than the player (low yards per attempt for example).

The point is, unlike my original post where I am saying the organization is more to blame for Jones' failings than Jones the player, this podcast explains why even with a solid environment and the whole organization behind him, he is still going to be seriously challenged to be successful.

Primarily timing issues - hesitation when making the correct throw in the correct read, failure to process the field quickly to see (or anticipate) multiple levels to find the better passing option (but again we don't know what he has been coached or flat out told to do), and also inaccurate at certain throws (end zone fade).

And of course, injuries.

They discuss a little bit how the new offense could possibly minimize these weaknesses and take advantage of the strengths. Clearly from all we have heard on the new offense, this is a major factor. No kidding, right?

It was late when I listened so I might have been too sleepy to remember but I think they were skeptical about that.

Listen to that podcast because no matter your take on Daniel Jones you will hear things that support your point of view and things that will challenge your point of view. It's a good episode.


Deep Dive on Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 1:40 pm : link
In comment 15736849 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 15736761 GNewGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 15736756 christian said:


Quote:


I enjoyed Manning when he played well, and I didn't enjoy Manning when he sucked.

I certainly didn't enjoy when he cried about losing his job, and then when the brain dead organization gave it back to him, he sucked and the team dove into a tail spin.



I would bet good money you didn’t enjoy when he played well either… but can’t prove it either way. You’re not an Eli fan. Sad, but it’s the truth. And again, if you think sticking with Eli is why we are here - you aren’t as smart of a fan as you think you are.



Sticking with Eli might not be why the Giants are where they are. But if you believed Eli was still a winner and not the reason the Giants were such a losing team his final 4 seasons; you can’t make the argument that Jones should have raised the talent level surrounding him with his play


This confirms something I believed all along the anti Eliers are dug in ; Joe in pa; acid test to name a couple. No amount of giants sucking will conivince them. I guess a dug in jones but why would not I be? This guy is a 20 mil qb and six pick? No he is not . And Phil simms played in a different time and was impact player . Jones is not.

Eli sucked? No he didn’t . His 80 something rating was pretty much average. That is not bad for playing behind a line that was just as bad and for playing with a hostile punk for wide receiver. Further the giants defense is decent now. It was horrible when Eli played.
RE: Eli Manning mostly didn't play to his draft status until Dec.29, 2007.  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 1:47 pm : link
In comment 15737134 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
There were lots of reasons, all beyond the scope of this discussion. But since Eli hangs over all assessments of Daniel Jones, here's one reason I try to stay humble in judging young quarterbacks: among the recent wave of Hall of Fame QBs, at least three - Eli, Brees, and Rodgers - accomplished very little in their first three seasons, under varying circumstances. Another slow starter, Philip Rivers, went 14-2 in year three after sitting for two seasons; but that team ran over people, rushing for over 160 YPG and 32 (!) TDs, and sacking opponents 61 times.

Of course, the game has continued to evolve since 2005. Wilson, Mahomes, and others have raised expectations for young quarterbacks, and contracts for top veteran QBs have become daunting. Still, it might be premature to say time is up after three years. Each case is different, and it's not trivial to distinguish between Ryan Tannehill and Mitch Trubisky.


Now I think I’ve heard everything. Aaron Rodgers sat behind Favre for years. That is why is never “got it going “ in his first few years. Brees had the talent but was splitting time with another qb — Flutie— due to some struggles but mostly a power play move by a coach and GM. Eli was always Eli . He was top five and six in TD and yards for all these horrible years . He struggled it seemed till like the last four minutes of a game when he turned it on. He was a clutch qb who was there when you needed him. Jones just sucks
So, let's sum up  
HomerJones45 : 6/21/2022 2:04 pm : link
Sports reporter most never heard of says Jones sucks and Taylor is better- a lying, know-nothing shit stirrer without facts, reason or logic who should be ignored.

Sports reporter no one ever heard about says Jones is good and it was a bad team- a prescient, logical, and excellent talent evaluator who we all should attend.

Forget all other previously proffered excuses, it's Jerry Reese's fault going back to 2012 and Eli Manning's fault that Jones sucks.


The excuse-mongering for Daniel Jones beggars the imagination.
RE: So, let's sum up  
GNewGiants : 6/21/2022 2:07 pm : link
In comment 15737234 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Sports reporter most never heard of says Jones sucks and Taylor is better- a lying, know-nothing shit stirrer without facts, reason or logic who should be ignored.

Sports reporter no one ever heard about says Jones is good and it was a bad team- a prescient, logical, and excellent talent evaluator who we all should attend.

Forget all other previously proffered excuses, it's Jerry Reese's fault going back to 2012 and Eli Manning's fault that Jones sucks.


The excuse-mongering for Daniel Jones beggars the imagination.


No one said this at all. Way to make shit up
Regardless of anything else  
Rudy5757 : 6/21/2022 2:18 pm : link
This is the last shot for DJ to show he is worth it or not worth it. The debate will be solved at the end of the season. I personally think if he finished the season in the top 15 of QBs he is worth a 2nd contract. Health will play a part too. If he plays 15 of 17 games thats good enough for me.

The QB play in the league overall is not great. The QBs have to be in an offense that suits them. Maybe just simply having a better scheme will improve DJs outlook. You can argue that the offense under Judge/Garrett was one of the worst and while under Shurmur Eli/Jones was much better than pre and post Shurmur.

Tired of reading the same arguments. Bottom line is that DJ is probably never going to get into that top 7 of players but you can win with someone in the top 15. Teams that have contunuity and a system can overcome bad QB play. We have not had a successful system in place in a while.
...  
christian : 6/21/2022 2:27 pm : link
The results speak for themselves. Manning was a declining player around 2016.

I believe Reese started to unwittingly take Manning for granted, and didn't fully realize how much of the burden Manning carried in 10, 11, and 12. Manning made all his weapons great during that time. If you take Manning out and replace him with a league average QB, those are double digit loss team.

Individually those were talented weapons, but they excelled under Manning. There's plenty of tape of Nicks, Manningham, Nicks, Ballard, etc. saying so.

When Manning couldn't shoulder the load, that luxury was gone -- and the difficulty of building a good offense was too great for Reese.

The Giants should have been aggressively seeking out a top end QB in 2017.

Instead, well, they did what they did.
RE: RE: …  
cjd2404 : 6/21/2022 2:28 pm : link
In comment 15736804 It's a New Day said:
Quote:
In comment 15736728 christian said:


Quote:

It started the moment Manning cried his way back into the lineup in 2017.


What a di(k thing to say. Should they have kept Geno Smith in there? a$$


In a word? Yes.

Eli was done, and Davis certainly was not the answer. Leaving Geno in there makes any new QB not have to be the "guy after the guy" It is far easier to come in and replace Geno than it was to replace Eli.

There was no reason to leave Eli in there other than for sentimental reasons.
The 2010 team  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/21/2022 2:51 pm : link
had a lot of talent. Still a capable OL. The team ran for 135 ypg game with Jacobs and Bradshaw who himself ran for over 1200. Nicks was developing. Capable TE.

On D you had Linval, JPP, Rolle, Ross, Phillips, Osi, Kiwi and Tuck.

They still have not fielded a team with close to that talent since. What the team changed was how they built teams for which Reese takes a good share of the blame.
Geno smith?  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 3:02 pm : link
Failed to win against a crappy raiders team in his first start here. And only start . The giants didn’t magically become a better different team. And that is despite even engram having a best game of his career.

What is he a rookie of something? Geno is a journey men back up. I’d he isn’t good enough to start on a three win rebuilding Seahawks team he sure isn’t starting material here . (Or the jets and what other ten teams he played for) now I think I’ve heard everything. Fact is what goes for the goose goes for the gander. You can’t say Eli sucked but D Jones is playing on a bad team.

Fact is Eli could have gone to play elsewhere he didn’t want to. Where is d jones going except third string on the eagles or something like that.
If we believe the team changed things in late-years of Reese  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/21/2022 3:08 pm : link
they certainly followed the same policy for the four years of DG, namely a total FUBAR of the offensive line evaluation process time and time and time again.

By all means, blame Reese until the day he was fired. The point of firing a GM is to bring in new decisionmakers.

If the new heads just do the same thing as the fired guy, that's on the new guy some, yes, but also on upper management.

The Giants tell you out loud that they do things as a collective, so there's no reason not to think ownership had a hand in the failures as well.

2012 to 2022 is a collective failure.
Most of the "hits"...  
bw in dc : 6/21/2022 3:46 pm : link
have plus or plus-plus skills that make them elite physical talents. For example:

Luck - great runner and great ad-hoc skills
Wentz - excellent arm, very good scrambling ability
Mahomes - great in everything
Allen - elite arm and mobility
LJax - elite mobility and running
Murray - very good arm and elite runner
Burrow - excellent pocket skills and improvisor
Hebert - elite arm, especially on the move, very good mover

I would not say Mac Jones is a "hit" yet. He had a nice rookie season, but too many overrate his success. In QBR and YPA he was middle of the pack. The jury is still out on a QB who doesn't have any elite physical skills.

So, excluding Jones, that's 8 out of 12 - 75% - in the "hits" category who have multiple plus physical skills.

If you only do first rounders, that's 8 out of 10, or 80% who have multiple plus physical skills.

Jones has maybe one plus skill. That's running. And he doesn't do that very well. In today's game, it's just better to have a plus arm and plus ability to make plays when things break down.

I don't deny that having stable team structure is important, but it's not as important as having those plus physical skills. Team structure can't teach the God given ability of the majority of those players.

Daboll will NEVER be able to teach Jones how to make the extemporaneous throws that Allen can make. As much as the Bills coaching staff helped develop Allen, he helped them equally - if not more - with his ability to make plays you can't teach...


...  
christian : 6/21/2022 4:00 pm : link
BW, I think in the Shurmur offense, Jones could have developed into an efficient game manager + type QB.

I thought after the 2019 season Jones had an Alex Smith ceiling.

I was one of the very few BBIers who felt if you give DumbleDave a 3rd year, Shurmur deserved one too.

In retrospect they should have. And they probably would have learned definitively after the 2020 season, none of them were the answer.
The greatest gift a QB has  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/21/2022 4:17 pm : link
is his mind. Second is his mental and physical toughness. Skills come after that.

Plenty of ultra talented QB's in traits have failed. Plenty of QB's with limited traits have had very good success. Some have won SB's with very good teams.

In addition to having a poor team around him the biggest issue Jones has is upstairs in dealing with decisions in real time. He has enough physical skills. It's whether or not his mind catches up to the speed of the game. Unlikely at this point but not impossible.



As far as the Eli Manning argument goes:  
81_Great_Dane : 6/21/2022 4:47 pm : link
Well, that escalated quickly.

One observation about how the Giants handled the Eli benching: They took the PR hit of ending the streak, they started Geno Smith (!!???), and Geno... played a little better than Eli was playing. Not much, but nonetheless, better, IIRC. So they took a huge PR hit for a small gain with the promise that maybe Smith would improve.

But having already taken the PR hit, the organization seemed to lose its mind (Panicked? I hate that word.) and not only backtracked and put Eli back in, but fired everyone. Which was just dumb. If you're going to stick with Manning no matter what, stick with Manning. If you want to give another guy a chance, give another guy a chance. But don't stick the new guy in, have him play decently and then give up on the experiment.

As for the replacements, replacing McAdoo with Shurmur was arguably an upgrade. Replacing Reese with Gettleman, a downgrade that arguably doomed Shurmur and Judge.

Returning to the nominal thread topic of Daniel Jones: Luck plays a huge role in NFL careers. Tom Brady was lucky. Good, but also lucky. Lots of talented QBs are good but unlucky and end up completely screwed by circumstances. RGIII was unlucky to have landed on a franchise that risked his career for nothing really very important. David Carr, unlucky. To go way back, Jim Plunkett -- unlucky early, lucky late. Daniel Jones so far: Very unlucky. Terrible organization, horrible surrounding cast, constant changes in coaching and awful offenses. So grading him "incomplete" is fair. But does that mean he's going to be better now? Not necessarily. We don't know how much is bad luck and how much is him just not being good. We'll know more in about 6 months, I guess.

What’s this new guy ?  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 5:19 pm : link
He played four years. You know what you had. He was not a rookie. If anything he should have started Webb if big suit was really evaluating roster talent on a lost season.

He wanted Eli to be the fall guy . How was Geno smith better he didn’t even complete 60perc of his passes.

I just the feeling this prone dug in on the Eli was old and sucked argument.

No matter how many QBs come in here and lose just the same like Geno Smith did against the Raiders when he started ; like Glennon did ; and like D Jones continues to do ; no matter what This would have been a good team but aEli Manning. Yea and proof is all this winning they have been doing without him right . Pff
...  
christian : 6/21/2022 6:09 pm : link
Say what now? ^
You knew what you had with Geno Smith  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 6:22 pm : link
He has not started in 4 years since. He only got to start again because Russ Wilson was hurt. He does not just get to start over Russ Wilson or Rivers or Eli M for that matter as well.
Debaser: Eli was 11th in TD passes in 2007, with 23.  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/21/2022 8:32 pm : link
Carson Palmer was 10th at 26. Eli did tie for the lead in INTs, as well as INT % among qualifiers.

Your stats are crap, and I don't even understand why you're pushing back on such a basic point. Eli wasn't very good until his first Super Bowl run. He wasn't usually terrible, other than his first four games. There were flashes, like the comeback in Philly, and he was better overall than Daniel Jones. But he wasn't particularly good either. What he showed above all in those early years was that he could take a hit, or throw a pick, and bounce back. That resilience in the face of physical punishment and other adversity made Eli great. Resilience remains among the open questions about Jones, and the early signs are not encouraging.
Eli had REAL flashes though  
Jerry in_DC : 6/21/2022 9:15 pm : link
I've been more critical than many of eli over the many years on BBI, but even when he was mediocre, there were times when he was absolutely awesome. Especially in high leverage spots. He could suck for most of a half, then be an absolute stud in the 2 minute drill. Complete command of the offense, slinging the ball all over the place. As inconsistent as he was, there was obviously at least something there from the beginning
RE: Debaser: Eli was 11th in TD passes in 2007, with 23.  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 9:27 pm : link
In comment 15737613 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Carson Palmer was 10th at 26. Eli did tie for the lead in INTs, as well as INT % among qualifiers.

Your stats are crap, and I don't even understand why you're pushing back on such a basic point. Eli wasn't very good until his first Super Bowl run. He wasn't usually terrible, other than his first four games. There were flashes, like the comeback in Philly, and he was better overall than Daniel Jones. But he wasn't particularly good either. What he showed above all in those early years was that he could take a hit, or throw a pick, and bounce back. That resilience in the face of physical punishment and other adversity made Eli great. Resilience remains among the open questions about Jones, and the early signs are not encouraging.


Your stats are crap. you are revising history to drag down Eli to make D Jones into something but what he is: a bottom tier QB.

In 2005 Eli had the 4th most TDs with 24.
In 2005 he was 5th with 3762 yards.
In 2006 he was 4th again with that same 24.

Nothing has changed since clown Gettleman drafted this guy. Nothing. All the NFL execs got it right. All the journalists that were like " he is not a 6th pick and this will set the Giants back years" got it right. Re-writing history about ELi doesn't change that and doesn't change what Jones is , he's a loser that never won anything.
RE: RE: Debaser: Eli was 11th in TD passes in 2007, with 23.  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 9:38 pm : link
In comment 15737660 Debaser said:
Quote:
In comment 15737613 Big Blue Blogger said:


Quote:


Carson Palmer was 10th at 26. Eli did tie for the lead in INTs, as well as INT % among qualifiers.

Your stats are crap, and I don't even understand why you're pushing back on such a basic point. Eli wasn't very good until his first Super Bowl run. He wasn't usually terrible, other than his first four games. There were flashes, like the comeback in Philly, and he was better overall than Daniel Jones. But he wasn't particularly good either. What he showed above all in those early years was that he could take a hit, or throw a pick, and bounce back. That resilience in the face of physical punishment and other adversity made Eli great. Resilience remains among the open questions about Jones, and the early signs are not encouraging.


I also find it comical that Eli wasn't good until he took a pretty good football team -- not as great as many make them out to be for Jones-excuse purposes-- carried them on his back ; played pretty much lights out; and defeated 10 point favorite and best coach and QB combo in the history of the sport. And was a SM MVP while doing it. Yea but other than that he sucked.But D Jones gets a pass WTF.
He would play against his brother back then in the Manning bowls  
Debaser : 6/21/2022 9:44 pm : link
play better in games and have better numbers than Peyton in said Manning bowls.

When has Jones ever played against an elite QB and out played them ?
...  
christian : 6/21/2022 10:35 pm : link
Manning showcased a high ceiling and low floor his first 3+ years. The best quality he exhibited was durability. Which was no fluke as we all learned.

Manning had the capacity to play terrible football, including the four interception game against the Vikings in late 2007.

It all clicked thereafter, but he was in teetering on the edge.

It's funny to think back to a time when the Giants had decently high standards for QB play. That time ended somewhere around 2017.
Eli and Peyton faced each other three times.  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/21/2022 10:36 pm : link
My rough tally:

Peyton
75-110-838-6-1

Eli
61-107-799-4-6

I am not seeing the statistical dominance of which you speak. More to the point, Peyton won all three games. The first was close, with Eli arguably outplaying Peyton after a slow start. The others were not close at all. The 2010 game was the weird one where Perry Fewell went all-in to take away the pass. Addai and Brown ran at will, and Peyton still put up nice numbers.

Nobody is denigrating Eli here. Yes, he finished in multi-way ties for fourth place in TD passes in 2005 and 2006. Some of those touchdowns foreshadowed his eventual greatness. The greatness came later, starting in Week 17 of the 2007 season. I’m not predicting a similar ascent for Daniel Jones. That would be nuts. I’m just not inclined to predict how much he can or will improve.
One of the few things that give me hope  
Thunderstruck27 : 6/21/2022 10:57 pm : link
for DJ is how ardently Debaser goes at him. To the point of ignoring the last 7 years of Eli's career to try to cut another QB down.
I still wish you hadn't given up on Glennon.
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