only watch majors, very strange to shit on a guy who only cares about majors. And money? You think these guys are playing out of the goodness of their hearts?
I think Giants players care a lot about money, do you hate them too? Eli took it hand over fist.
RE: He’s an absolute tool. Always been just about the money
And doesn’t give a fuck about anything but playing in majors
So now he gets paid a shit ton to play in some joke events.
Won’t be missed
You cannot blame them for taking the money. You know within a short period of time(probably next year), the Tour will acquiesce and take them back. They cannot allow DP Tour to let these guys play there, do nothing and let these guys walk away. This is a cash grab. It happens in every sport. It is called free agency.
You may not like Koepka, but there are a lot that do like him. DeChambeau and a few others do what they want but they do draw people. Most of the "big" stars play limited schedules for certain tournaments. It is a grind and once they make the big time, they cut back appearances. Tiger only played 15 per year before the injuries caught up. Remember this Tour runs because of sponsors. Once the sponsors see their guys leaving, they will get Monahan to relent.
Why should the PGA have a monopoly? If the LIV can make it stick with all the money they are paying then why not? Also I don't begrudge the golfer from going, in a way its refreshing. Its no different than leaving your company for more money at a different company, we have all done it. For the most part these players are pretty normal guys out there trying to make money like you and me.
LIV is offering more money (and salaries) and perks to star players. Let the PGA match their offer or change the way they do business with talent.
The players aren't being kidnapped. They're being lured.
These guys are pros. Why would anyone hate on them for making what they feel is the best decision for their professional lives? It may or may not work out, but you can't blame them for making what they feel is the best business decision.
Why should the PGA have a monopoly? If the LIV can make it stick with all the money they are paying then why not? Also I don't begrudge the golfer from going, in a way its refreshing. Its no different than leaving your company for more money at a different company, we have all done it. For the most part these players are pretty normal guys out there trying to make money like you and me.
It will ruin the game, or at least impact the weekly product and player development. If the LIV becomes a 'celebrity golf tour' with limited players and big money, the PGA becomes the web.com tour 2.0. Just a next level development league. And those up and coming players will fight for a smaller money pool as revenues dry up. Or assume the PGA starts paying appearance fees or guaranteed money. Again, its the up and coming players who lose out. Less money, less visibility.
I'm not sure how close this touches the political third rail
But there are other factors at play here beyond a competing league. It's a league backed by the current Saudi regime that has almost zero interest in turning a profit. This isn't a capitalistic endeavor on their part, it's a PR expense. PR for some pretty terrible shit. PGA will never be able to compete from a financial incentive standpoint.
Has there ever been attempt at a team based league? Like imagine having golf clubs that give out contracts, and those clubs then compete...
That way there is some g'teed money, but still going after championships and stuff. Sponsor'd teams all throwing money around trying to get the best teams. Prizes for individuals as well as best team finishes, etc...
Who knows how long it lasts, maybe the Saudis get bored. To this point, they're really just names that they've grabbed, these guys are either washed or on the downswing. Ancer was actually kind of a get from an ascending standpoint. Morikawa would be a monster blow to the PGA.
Where it would start to get hairy is if they start attracting the best prospects. If the next Scheffler, Hovland or Morikawas end up signing there, that's where it will hurt the league the most.
Why should the PGA have a monopoly? If the LIV can make it stick with all the money they are paying then why not? Also I don't begrudge the golfer from going, in a way its refreshing. Its no different than leaving your company for more money at a different company, we have all done it. For the most part these players are pretty normal guys out there trying to make money like you and me.
It will ruin the game, or at least impact the weekly product and player development. If the LIV becomes a 'celebrity golf tour' with limited players and big money, the PGA becomes the web.com tour 2.0. Just a next level development league. And those up and coming players will fight for a smaller money pool as revenues dry up. Or assume the PGA starts paying appearance fees or guaranteed money. Again, its the up and coming players who lose out. Less money, less visibility.
Sure, if the PGA does nothing. But the PGA hasn't ever been pushed to change, atleast not over the last 20/25 years (maybe more but that was before my time as a Golf fan).
The PGA has had a nice, cozy time coasting with no threat to their product. I'd like to think Golf can be better because of this, competition is never a bad thing.
Why should the PGA have a monopoly? If the LIV can make it stick with all the money they are paying then why not? Also I don't begrudge the golfer from going, in a way its refreshing. Its no different than leaving your company for more money at a different company, we have all done it. For the most part these players are pretty normal guys out there trying to make money like you and me.
It will ruin the game, or at least impact the weekly product and player development. If the LIV becomes a 'celebrity golf tour' with limited players and big money, the PGA becomes the web.com tour 2.0. Just a next level development league. And those up and coming players will fight for a smaller money pool as revenues dry up. Or assume the PGA starts paying appearance fees or guaranteed money. Again, its the up and coming players who lose out. Less money, less visibility.
I think this is a massive mis-read of the situation. Once the majority of the big guys jump, the up and comers will all leave and the PGA will either adapt and let them all back without penalty or cease to exist. Sponsors won't stay with a product that's B league.
Remember that while the big names make big money to leave the PGA, remember that the Shark tried to set up what essentially is the LIV many years ago, but the PGA undercut him and developed a system where they controlled the money and the stars.
The LIV adopted and found a new tool that will come into play as more of the younger guys see what really happens.
Under the PGA money, they money all goes to the top finishers- if you miss the cut or finish below the top level, you essentially get nothing- and most players not in the top group end up running a debt even with sponsor money.
However, in the LIV the rule is that EVERYONE in the tournament at least gets something. If you are an up and comer and see all the big names leaving, but realize that you still will finish outside the money in the PGA, is the decision really that hard?
The only weapon that the PGA has is its ban power. But that has already been undermined by one major saying LIV players can join. If the US Open allows that as well, the PGA loses the war.
The PGA handled the entire thing ham-handedly. They COULD have made overtures to the players to share more wealth for participating and blown up the LIVs big advantage. It could have also selectively used the bad power. Instead, the PGA went for broke, refused to even acknowledge its inequitable system and like the Emperor With No Clothes, announced anyone who went to LIV would get banned.
At this point, the PGA is done. The only ones who don't know it yet are the PGA powers that be and the PGA backed media.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
The PGA is a pure performance based league. And a NFP. It also pours an enormous amount of money into the communities where it holds events and charities across the country. As for not caring about its players, it does an excellent job of promoting up and coming talent. The PGA tour is structured to develop talent at all levels (including women), not just pay stars big money.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
The PGA is a pure performance based league. And a NFP. It also pours an enormous amount of money into the communities where it holds events and charities across the country. As for not caring about its players, it does an excellent job of promoting up and coming talent. The PGA tour is structured to develop talent at all levels (including women), not just pay stars big money.
Go ahead and TRY to sell that line to the pros who are running a debt just to be PGA members. You'll be laughed out of the room in seconds.
RE: RE: RE: I fail to see what is so bad about this
I think this is a massive mis-read of the situation. Once the majority of the big guys jump, the up and comers will all leave and the PGA will either adapt and let them all back without penalty or cease to exist. Sponsors won't stay with a product that's B league.
Remember that while the big names make big money to leave the PGA, remember that the Shark tried to set up what essentially is the LIV many years ago, but the PGA undercut him and developed a system where they controlled the money and the stars.
The LIV adopted and found a new tool that will come into play as more of the younger guys see what really happens.
Under the PGA money, they money all goes to the top finishers- if you miss the cut or finish below the top level, you essentially get nothing- and most players not in the top group end up running a debt even with sponsor money.
However, in the LIV the rule is that EVERYONE in the tournament at least gets something. If you are an up and comer and see all the big names leaving, but realize that you still will finish outside the money in the PGA, is the decision really that hard?
The only weapon that the PGA has is its ban power. But that has already been undermined by one major saying LIV players can join. If the US Open allows that as well, the PGA loses the war.
The PGA handled the entire thing ham-handedly. They COULD have made overtures to the players to share more wealth for participating and blown up the LIVs big advantage. It could have also selectively used the bad power. Instead, the PGA went for broke, refused to even acknowledge its inequitable system and like the Emperor With No Clothes, announced anyone who went to LIV would get banned.
At this point, the PGA is done. The only ones who don't know it yet are the PGA powers that be and the PGA backed media.
rich - devil's advocate.
LIV is playing with 48 players, It can afford to pay everyone as opposed to 156 players at each tournament on Tour. Even with the cut at about 70 players - that is 75% more players to cut the pie.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
An argument can be made for any company/government being shady, I get it. It doesn't mean you just ignore who you are directly accepting a payoff for and what the purpose of the league is. It's not black and white, it's complicated. It's certainly a component, regardless of how much you value that component.
For me, it's a case by case. It's really hard for me to fault a prospect for taking the guaranteed life-changing money when a card on tour isn't even a lock. Or the grinder or middling player that hasn't had the chance yet to set up their kids yet. But guys like DJ and Phil "doing what's best for the family", I'll roll my eyes at. Phil needs to pay off his markers and DJ just wants a bigger yacht.
The PGA certainly needs reform, especially for the young or fringe guys trying to make it. So hopefully some good comes of it.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
The PGA is a pure performance based league. And a NFP. It also pours an enormous amount of money into the communities where it holds events and charities across the country. As for not caring about its players, it does an excellent job of promoting up and coming talent. The PGA tour is structured to develop talent at all levels (including women), not just pay stars big money.
If your job is a professional golfer (not a golf pro, but a tour pro) why do you care about that? or if you do care about it why do you care about it more than your salary?
Everyone is altruistic when it come to other people's money.
As a fan it's 100% your right to pick and choose how to spend your money and who to support with your wallet, as a player and provider for their families shouldn't it be up to the players how they compete?
I don't even see it as controversial - this is the free market in action.
Either the PGA adjusts or they die a slow death or at best feel some pain.
he isn't going to say "I only cared about the money" even if it is true (it likely is). But if he did say it, a whole new group of people would hate him for it. Its a lose lose from a PR standpoint.
Phil in more of a bind because of what he said initially, but he's not going to tell you its because he lost all his money. Why do we have that expectation of athletes?
RE: RE: RE: RE: I fail to see what is so bad about this
I think this is a massive mis-read of the situation. Once the majority of the big guys jump, the up and comers will all leave and the PGA will either adapt and let them all back without penalty or cease to exist. Sponsors won't stay with a product that's B league.
Remember that while the big names make big money to leave the PGA, remember that the Shark tried to set up what essentially is the LIV many years ago, but the PGA undercut him and developed a system where they controlled the money and the stars.
The LIV adopted and found a new tool that will come into play as more of the younger guys see what really happens.
Under the PGA money, they money all goes to the top finishers- if you miss the cut or finish below the top level, you essentially get nothing- and most players not in the top group end up running a debt even with sponsor money.
However, in the LIV the rule is that EVERYONE in the tournament at least gets something. If you are an up and comer and see all the big names leaving, but realize that you still will finish outside the money in the PGA, is the decision really that hard?
The only weapon that the PGA has is its ban power. But that has already been undermined by one major saying LIV players can join. If the US Open allows that as well, the PGA loses the war.
The PGA handled the entire thing ham-handedly. They COULD have made overtures to the players to share more wealth for participating and blown up the LIVs big advantage. It could have also selectively used the bad power. Instead, the PGA went for broke, refused to even acknowledge its inequitable system and like the Emperor With No Clothes, announced anyone who went to LIV would get banned.
At this point, the PGA is done. The only ones who don't know it yet are the PGA powers that be and the PGA backed media.
rich - devil's advocate.
LIV is playing with 48 players, It can afford to pay everyone as opposed to 156 players at each tournament on Tour. Even with the cut at about 70 players - that is 75% more players to cut the pie.
That's a very valid point.
I don't know the answer to this one, but it APPEARS that the LIV made a decision that the PGA will not- namely, put more of the money it brings in back to the players.
A question that the media needs to ask- and right now is too afraid of the PG for some reason- is just how much are the corporate people and governance of the PGA making, especially as a percentage of the money that is given to the players? That might answer some of your question.
I would also ask the LIV whether it is financially supporting the tournaments it sponsors or whether the tournaments themselves are responsible for costs, etc.?
the LIV is boring. The format is boring. Even if they get better players to fill out the 48 how do you televise a shot gun and make it interesting? Did any of you watch the US Open? What would it have televised like if the top 3 players were all on different parts of the golf course? Maybe they'll adjust their format if they ever get a US broadcast deal.
the LIV is boring. The format is boring. Even if they get better players to fill out the 48 how do you televise a shot gun and make it interesting? Did any of you watch the US Open? What would it have televised like if the top 3 players were all on different parts of the golf course? Maybe they'll adjust their format if they ever get a US broadcast deal.
Its a valid complaint. I really liked the fast paced nature of the feed but they will need to do some trial/error to see what sticks with fans. Its just like MLB or NFL on Apple - its going to be wonky and over time it will get refined.
the LIV is boring. The format is boring. Even if they get better players to fill out the 48 how do you televise a shot gun and make it interesting? Did any of you watch the US Open? What would it have televised like if the top 3 players were all on different parts of the golf course? Maybe they'll adjust their format if they ever get a US broadcast deal.
what do you mean? they still have pairs - they're not golfing by ones. did they say the pairings would be random? why couldn't the top 2 or 4 tee off at holes right behind each other?
I don't see how this impacts viewership in anyway unless you can only view things serially.
In fact it might make it more interesting knowing that player A is in the lead, but he has already gotten past the easier holes and Player B and C behind him hasn't.
I just wish LIV didn’t exist. As was stated this isn’t a sustainable model for the sport. The PGA will dry up and LIV has zero interest in being a developmental league or anything outside of a celebrity showcase. Furthermore the limited amount of golfers prohibit from being one even if it wanted to be. 5 years from now they will either have same players or will cherry pick a couple ncaa winners and the fans and sport will be worse for it.
the LIV is boring. The format is boring. Even if they get better players to fill out the 48 how do you televise a shot gun and make it interesting? Did any of you watch the US Open? What would it have televised like if the top 3 players were all on different parts of the golf course? Maybe they'll adjust their format if they ever get a US broadcast deal.
Bingo. The format is awful. The Shotgun starts are horrendous. The team concept is not even half-baked.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
An argument can be made for any company/government being shady, I get it. It doesn't mean you just ignore who you are directly accepting a payoff for and what the purpose of the league is. It's not black and white, it's complicated. It's certainly a component, regardless of how much you value that component.
For me, it's a case by case. It's really hard for me to fault a prospect for taking the guaranteed life-changing money when a card on tour isn't even a lock. Or the grinder or middling player that hasn't had the chance yet to set up their kids yet. But guys like DJ and Phil "doing what's best for the family", I'll roll my eyes at. Phil needs to pay off his markers and DJ just wants a bigger yacht.
The PGA certainly needs reform, especially for the young or fringe guys trying to make it. So hopefully some good comes of it.
You don't get it. Fans, sponsors, patrons want to see the best players. LIV is not recruiting the Korn Ferry Tour. It is looking for the recognized best players and those players that have fan recognition. Some guys said they weren't leaving(Tiger, Rory). Some looked at it and said I'll take the money, a few bruises and when it settles out, be back after the Tour wakes up. The LIV tour is not interested in guys that barely win their card each season. They want the big names with fan recognition. One of the weakest players they recruited is Rickie Fowler who has been "terrible" for about three years, but he has a huge youth following and a major sponsor in Puma.
As far as reform - there is nothing wrong with which players make it to the PGA Tour. The best players make it. The lowest get relegated. They have the best golfers in the world. Even a large number of DP World Tour players want to play here and hold both cards.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
The PGA is a pure performance based league. And a NFP. It also pours an enormous amount of money into the communities where it holds events and charities across the country. As for not caring about its players, it does an excellent job of promoting up and coming talent. The PGA tour is structured to develop talent at all levels (including women), not just pay stars big money.
Something to think about when you say this- this is almost the exact same arguments that MLB made in the Curt Flood case, trying to head off Free Agency in baseball.
Before Andy Messerschmidt (not sure I spelled that right) won the arbitration case that opened up MLB Free Agency, players were paid a pittance relative to the overall finances of the team. The teams argued that they had put a ton of money into developing the players and working in the minor and major league communities, so they would lose money if they could not control movement and salaries (keep in mind that Curt Flood was challenging the "reserve" system that tied a player to the team unless the team chose the end their ties with the player- they player had no choice).
While the LIV and PGA are different leagues, and there is no counterpart to MLB, the idea of Free Agency is the same- the player essentially agrees to play for who they want in exchange for whatever amount of money they agree on.
The PGA has been in complete control of the pro golf games finances for so long, I'm not even sure that they can see the players' arguments about getting paid their worth and sharing more money.
Free Agency didn't bankrupt baseball. In fact, in 1967, there were 20 teams. They expanded to 24 in 1969 and are now at 30, with years of chatter that they want to add 2 more teams. Teams are also highly profitable. If the league was in dire financial straits, there would not be talk of selling the Nationals for $2-3 BILLION dollars.
The idea isn't much different in golf. Players have had their earnings capped for years, and most outside the top group rely on sponsors money.
This idea changes the whole paradigm. Now, players get paid for what they bring to the game- their skills. People WANT to see the best players, but the players rarely see that money. Now, they will.
Again, LIV isn't designed to be a competing league
What exactly don't I get? You didn't say anything insightful but stated the obvious. I think you missed the part where they signed some of the top amateurs to 7 figure deals with 6 figure guarantees for every tournament as well. That didn't make the headlines and that is where the PGAs biggest problem will come in terms of its longterm health. Hovland, Wolff and Morikawa came in with a lot of hype, LIV signing the next college studs that start to dominate is what will eventually do them in the most.
LIV emerging won't kill the PGA either, it will likely take the shape of the Euro Soccer model where the best players are spread out through multiple leagues and then all play the majors. But like I said, what will really relegate them to B league status is if LIV starts plucking the top prospects or emerging talent.
RE: RE: Again, LIV isn't designed to be a competing league
it is literally a glorified traveling golf exhibition.
That is it.
It appears that you intentionally left out the most important part.
The players get paid their worth, not some artificial capped number set by the PGA.
the players aren't "getting paid their worth" because the league is not making any money, they are getting an arbitrary amount guaranteed up front based on their name/likeness (aka sponsorship) which is always somewhat subjective.
on the PGA tour players were getting paid whatever they were worth by sponsors too. that's how mickelson was the 2nd highest paid golfer last year at $46m.
RE: RE: Again, LIV isn't designed to be a competing league
it is literally a glorified traveling golf exhibition.
That is it.
It appears that you intentionally left out the most important part.
The players get paid their worth, not some artificial capped number set by the PGA.
They are getting, what is in effect, up front appearance money. Many were getting that before - the same big names. A few years back Tiger got $3 mill(IIRC) to come to the Dubai Open and the penthouse at her Burj Khalifa ($10k per night).
The total purse is double that of the tour events and they only play 54 holes. What is not to like?
Again, the rich will get richer. In order to compete, the tour will now need to get individual tournaments to double their purses. Which means increase TV payments. Many of the smaller events will probably fold decreasing the chances of the lower tier players to win at events where the big boys are taking time off.
I think in the end, the schedule will need to be paired - again reducing the chances of the fringe players.
There will probably be no drug testing policy in the LIV,
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
The PGA is a pure performance based league. And a NFP. It also pours an enormous amount of money into the communities where it holds events and charities across the country. As for not caring about its players, it does an excellent job of promoting up and coming talent. The PGA tour is structured to develop talent at all levels (including women), not just pay stars big money.
Go ahead and TRY to sell that line to the pros who are running a debt just to be PGA members. You'll be laughed out of the room in seconds.
Try selling the LIV to those same professionals. There is no room for them in the LIV. Its a rich get richer endeavor.
with companies and finance directly tied to the Chinese Communist Party.
So... there really is 0 room to hide behind "human rights concerns" when trying to sell people PGA vs LIV.
the human rights part is a red herring on both sides
the players are taking insane money to join the circus vs. competing at the highest level for the generational money they already made.
nobody cares about the no-name guys getting paid by the liv tour or the pga tour. nobody is watching either because of that.
guys like koepka, bryson, dj, phil obviously, are millionaires tens if not hundreds of times over and they are making the equivalent decision of Lebron leaving the NBA to play for the harlem globetrotters. they are making a joke of themselves that deserves to be called out without factoring in the human rights red herring.
RE: RE: There will probably be no drug testing policy in the LIV,
so a couple of guys certainly will have a better quality of life.
Because drugs increase quality of life....
For some it does. What would a guy like Couples have done if MJ was legal, for example? It’s not an impact sport but these guys have back and knee injuries alll the time, some relief without opioids would be, and is, desirable.
with companies and finance directly tied to the Chinese Communist Party.
So... there really is 0 room to hide behind "human rights concerns" when trying to sell people PGA vs LIV.
What is it? Which company?
RE: RE: RE: There will probably be no drug testing policy in the LIV,
so a couple of guys certainly will have a better quality of life.
Because drugs increase quality of life....
For some it does. What would a guy like Couples have done if MJ was legal, for example? It’s not an impact sport but these guys have back and knee injuries alll the time, some relief without opioids would be, and is, desirable.
MJ does not stop the pain on the course. Might it offer relief later? maybe. But it does not help a bad back.
with companies and finance directly tied to the Chinese Communist Party.
So... there really is 0 room to hide behind "human rights concerns" when trying to sell people PGA vs LIV.
What is it? Which company?
PGA China. lol.
Also, google Shankai sports, it's basically the way China allowed golf to exist in China.
with companies and finance directly tied to the Chinese Communist Party.
So... there really is 0 room to hide behind "human rights concerns" when trying to sell people PGA vs LIV.
What is it? Which company?
PGA China. lol.
Also, google Shankai sports, it's basically the way China allowed golf to exist in China.
What has that got to do with big sponsors for PGA Tour...?
with companies and finance directly tied to the Chinese Communist Party.
So... there really is 0 room to hide behind "human rights concerns" when trying to sell people PGA vs LIV.
What is it? Which company?
PGA China. lol.
Also, google Shankai sports, it's basically the way China allowed golf to exist in China.
What has that got to do with big sponsors for PGA Tour...?
who said sponsors? Maybe do some google searches and then report back your findings. The information is available to anyone who wants to find it.
with companies and finance directly tied to the Chinese Communist Party.
So... there really is 0 room to hide behind "human rights concerns" when trying to sell people PGA vs LIV.
What is it? Which company?
PGA China. lol.
Also, google Shankai sports, it's basically the way China allowed golf to exist in China.
What has that got to do with big sponsors for PGA Tour...?
who said sponsors? Maybe do some google searches and then report back your findings. The information is available to anyone who wants to find it.
There probably isn't a top 500 or 1000 company that does not deal with China. So whoppee.
I could care less about the Saudi money and to the miniscule involvement by China.
So now he gets paid a shit ton to play in some joke events.
Won’t be missed
So now he gets paid a shit ton to play in some joke events.
Won’t be missed
No offense but winning majors and winning lots of money isn’t the worst thing. Pretty much what your reputation is based on..
There are also rumors, which hopefully aren't true, that Collin Morikawa is heading to LIV too.
I think Giants players care a lot about money, do you hate them too? Eli took it hand over fist.
So now he gets paid a shit ton to play in some joke events.
Won’t be missed
You cannot blame them for taking the money. You know within a short period of time(probably next year), the Tour will acquiesce and take them back. They cannot allow DP Tour to let these guys play there, do nothing and let these guys walk away. This is a cash grab. It happens in every sport. It is called free agency.
You may not like Koepka, but there are a lot that do like him. DeChambeau and a few others do what they want but they do draw people. Most of the "big" stars play limited schedules for certain tournaments. It is a grind and once they make the big time, they cut back appearances. Tiger only played 15 per year before the injuries caught up. Remember this Tour runs because of sponsors. Once the sponsors see their guys leaving, they will get Monahan to relent.
I don't like it, but that is reality.
The players aren't being kidnapped. They're being lured.
It will ruin the game, or at least impact the weekly product and player development. If the LIV becomes a 'celebrity golf tour' with limited players and big money, the PGA becomes the web.com tour 2.0. Just a next level development league. And those up and coming players will fight for a smaller money pool as revenues dry up. Or assume the PGA starts paying appearance fees or guaranteed money. Again, its the up and coming players who lose out. Less money, less visibility.
That way there is some g'teed money, but still going after championships and stuff. Sponsor'd teams all throwing money around trying to get the best teams. Prizes for individuals as well as best team finishes, etc...
Where it would start to get hairy is if they start attracting the best prospects. If the next Scheffler, Hovland or Morikawas end up signing there, that's where it will hurt the league the most.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
Quote:
Why should the PGA have a monopoly? If the LIV can make it stick with all the money they are paying then why not? Also I don't begrudge the golfer from going, in a way its refreshing. Its no different than leaving your company for more money at a different company, we have all done it. For the most part these players are pretty normal guys out there trying to make money like you and me.
It will ruin the game, or at least impact the weekly product and player development. If the LIV becomes a 'celebrity golf tour' with limited players and big money, the PGA becomes the web.com tour 2.0. Just a next level development league. And those up and coming players will fight for a smaller money pool as revenues dry up. Or assume the PGA starts paying appearance fees or guaranteed money. Again, its the up and coming players who lose out. Less money, less visibility.
Sure, if the PGA does nothing. But the PGA hasn't ever been pushed to change, atleast not over the last 20/25 years (maybe more but that was before my time as a Golf fan).
The PGA has had a nice, cozy time coasting with no threat to their product. I'd like to think Golf can be better because of this, competition is never a bad thing.
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Why should the PGA have a monopoly? If the LIV can make it stick with all the money they are paying then why not? Also I don't begrudge the golfer from going, in a way its refreshing. Its no different than leaving your company for more money at a different company, we have all done it. For the most part these players are pretty normal guys out there trying to make money like you and me.
It will ruin the game, or at least impact the weekly product and player development. If the LIV becomes a 'celebrity golf tour' with limited players and big money, the PGA becomes the web.com tour 2.0. Just a next level development league. And those up and coming players will fight for a smaller money pool as revenues dry up. Or assume the PGA starts paying appearance fees or guaranteed money. Again, its the up and coming players who lose out. Less money, less visibility.
I think this is a massive mis-read of the situation. Once the majority of the big guys jump, the up and comers will all leave and the PGA will either adapt and let them all back without penalty or cease to exist. Sponsors won't stay with a product that's B league.
Remember that while the big names make big money to leave the PGA, remember that the Shark tried to set up what essentially is the LIV many years ago, but the PGA undercut him and developed a system where they controlled the money and the stars.
The LIV adopted and found a new tool that will come into play as more of the younger guys see what really happens.
Under the PGA money, they money all goes to the top finishers- if you miss the cut or finish below the top level, you essentially get nothing- and most players not in the top group end up running a debt even with sponsor money.
However, in the LIV the rule is that EVERYONE in the tournament at least gets something. If you are an up and comer and see all the big names leaving, but realize that you still will finish outside the money in the PGA, is the decision really that hard?
The only weapon that the PGA has is its ban power. But that has already been undermined by one major saying LIV players can join. If the US Open allows that as well, the PGA loses the war.
The PGA handled the entire thing ham-handedly. They COULD have made overtures to the players to share more wealth for participating and blown up the LIVs big advantage. It could have also selectively used the bad power. Instead, the PGA went for broke, refused to even acknowledge its inequitable system and like the Emperor With No Clothes, announced anyone who went to LIV would get banned.
At this point, the PGA is done. The only ones who don't know it yet are the PGA powers that be and the PGA backed media.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
The PGA is a pure performance based league. And a NFP. It also pours an enormous amount of money into the communities where it holds events and charities across the country. As for not caring about its players, it does an excellent job of promoting up and coming talent. The PGA tour is structured to develop talent at all levels (including women), not just pay stars big money.
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the PGA has no loyalty to these golfers.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
The PGA is a pure performance based league. And a NFP. It also pours an enormous amount of money into the communities where it holds events and charities across the country. As for not caring about its players, it does an excellent job of promoting up and coming talent. The PGA tour is structured to develop talent at all levels (including women), not just pay stars big money.
Go ahead and TRY to sell that line to the pros who are running a debt just to be PGA members. You'll be laughed out of the room in seconds.
I think this is a massive mis-read of the situation. Once the majority of the big guys jump, the up and comers will all leave and the PGA will either adapt and let them all back without penalty or cease to exist. Sponsors won't stay with a product that's B league.
Remember that while the big names make big money to leave the PGA, remember that the Shark tried to set up what essentially is the LIV many years ago, but the PGA undercut him and developed a system where they controlled the money and the stars.
The LIV adopted and found a new tool that will come into play as more of the younger guys see what really happens.
Under the PGA money, they money all goes to the top finishers- if you miss the cut or finish below the top level, you essentially get nothing- and most players not in the top group end up running a debt even with sponsor money.
However, in the LIV the rule is that EVERYONE in the tournament at least gets something. If you are an up and comer and see all the big names leaving, but realize that you still will finish outside the money in the PGA, is the decision really that hard?
The only weapon that the PGA has is its ban power. But that has already been undermined by one major saying LIV players can join. If the US Open allows that as well, the PGA loses the war.
The PGA handled the entire thing ham-handedly. They COULD have made overtures to the players to share more wealth for participating and blown up the LIVs big advantage. It could have also selectively used the bad power. Instead, the PGA went for broke, refused to even acknowledge its inequitable system and like the Emperor With No Clothes, announced anyone who went to LIV would get banned.
At this point, the PGA is done. The only ones who don't know it yet are the PGA powers that be and the PGA backed media.
rich - devil's advocate.
LIV is playing with 48 players, It can afford to pay everyone as opposed to 156 players at each tournament on Tour. Even with the cut at about 70 players - that is 75% more players to cut the pie.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
An argument can be made for any company/government being shady, I get it. It doesn't mean you just ignore who you are directly accepting a payoff for and what the purpose of the league is. It's not black and white, it's complicated. It's certainly a component, regardless of how much you value that component.
For me, it's a case by case. It's really hard for me to fault a prospect for taking the guaranteed life-changing money when a card on tour isn't even a lock. Or the grinder or middling player that hasn't had the chance yet to set up their kids yet. But guys like DJ and Phil "doing what's best for the family", I'll roll my eyes at. Phil needs to pay off his markers and DJ just wants a bigger yacht.
The PGA certainly needs reform, especially for the young or fringe guys trying to make it. So hopefully some good comes of it.
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the PGA has no loyalty to these golfers.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
The PGA is a pure performance based league. And a NFP. It also pours an enormous amount of money into the communities where it holds events and charities across the country. As for not caring about its players, it does an excellent job of promoting up and coming talent. The PGA tour is structured to develop talent at all levels (including women), not just pay stars big money.
If your job is a professional golfer (not a golf pro, but a tour pro) why do you care about that? or if you do care about it why do you care about it more than your salary?
Everyone is altruistic when it come to other people's money.
As a fan it's 100% your right to pick and choose how to spend your money and who to support with your wallet, as a player and provider for their families shouldn't it be up to the players how they compete?
I don't even see it as controversial - this is the free market in action.
Either the PGA adjusts or they die a slow death or at best feel some pain.
Phil in more of a bind because of what he said initially, but he's not going to tell you its because he lost all his money. Why do we have that expectation of athletes?
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I think this is a massive mis-read of the situation. Once the majority of the big guys jump, the up and comers will all leave and the PGA will either adapt and let them all back without penalty or cease to exist. Sponsors won't stay with a product that's B league.
Remember that while the big names make big money to leave the PGA, remember that the Shark tried to set up what essentially is the LIV many years ago, but the PGA undercut him and developed a system where they controlled the money and the stars.
The LIV adopted and found a new tool that will come into play as more of the younger guys see what really happens.
Under the PGA money, they money all goes to the top finishers- if you miss the cut or finish below the top level, you essentially get nothing- and most players not in the top group end up running a debt even with sponsor money.
However, in the LIV the rule is that EVERYONE in the tournament at least gets something. If you are an up and comer and see all the big names leaving, but realize that you still will finish outside the money in the PGA, is the decision really that hard?
The only weapon that the PGA has is its ban power. But that has already been undermined by one major saying LIV players can join. If the US Open allows that as well, the PGA loses the war.
The PGA handled the entire thing ham-handedly. They COULD have made overtures to the players to share more wealth for participating and blown up the LIVs big advantage. It could have also selectively used the bad power. Instead, the PGA went for broke, refused to even acknowledge its inequitable system and like the Emperor With No Clothes, announced anyone who went to LIV would get banned.
At this point, the PGA is done. The only ones who don't know it yet are the PGA powers that be and the PGA backed media.
rich - devil's advocate.
LIV is playing with 48 players, It can afford to pay everyone as opposed to 156 players at each tournament on Tour. Even with the cut at about 70 players - that is 75% more players to cut the pie.
That's a very valid point.
I don't know the answer to this one, but it APPEARS that the LIV made a decision that the PGA will not- namely, put more of the money it brings in back to the players.
A question that the media needs to ask- and right now is too afraid of the PG for some reason- is just how much are the corporate people and governance of the PGA making, especially as a percentage of the money that is given to the players? That might answer some of your question.
I would also ask the LIV whether it is financially supporting the tournaments it sponsors or whether the tournaments themselves are responsible for costs, etc.?
Its a valid complaint. I really liked the fast paced nature of the feed but they will need to do some trial/error to see what sticks with fans. Its just like MLB or NFL on Apple - its going to be wonky and over time it will get refined.
what do you mean? they still have pairs - they're not golfing by ones. did they say the pairings would be random? why couldn't the top 2 or 4 tee off at holes right behind each other?
I don't see how this impacts viewership in anyway unless you can only view things serially.
In fact it might make it more interesting knowing that player A is in the lead, but he has already gotten past the easier holes and Player B and C behind him hasn't.
Bingo. The format is awful. The Shotgun starts are horrendous. The team concept is not even half-baked.
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the PGA has no loyalty to these golfers.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
An argument can be made for any company/government being shady, I get it. It doesn't mean you just ignore who you are directly accepting a payoff for and what the purpose of the league is. It's not black and white, it's complicated. It's certainly a component, regardless of how much you value that component.
For me, it's a case by case. It's really hard for me to fault a prospect for taking the guaranteed life-changing money when a card on tour isn't even a lock. Or the grinder or middling player that hasn't had the chance yet to set up their kids yet. But guys like DJ and Phil "doing what's best for the family", I'll roll my eyes at. Phil needs to pay off his markers and DJ just wants a bigger yacht.
The PGA certainly needs reform, especially for the young or fringe guys trying to make it. So hopefully some good comes of it.
You don't get it. Fans, sponsors, patrons want to see the best players. LIV is not recruiting the Korn Ferry Tour. It is looking for the recognized best players and those players that have fan recognition. Some guys said they weren't leaving(Tiger, Rory). Some looked at it and said I'll take the money, a few bruises and when it settles out, be back after the Tour wakes up. The LIV tour is not interested in guys that barely win their card each season. They want the big names with fan recognition. One of the weakest players they recruited is Rickie Fowler who has been "terrible" for about three years, but he has a huge youth following and a major sponsor in Puma.
As far as reform - there is nothing wrong with which players make it to the PGA Tour. The best players make it. The lowest get relegated. They have the best golfers in the world. Even a large number of DP World Tour players want to play here and hold both cards.
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the PGA has no loyalty to these golfers.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
The PGA is a pure performance based league. And a NFP. It also pours an enormous amount of money into the communities where it holds events and charities across the country. As for not caring about its players, it does an excellent job of promoting up and coming talent. The PGA tour is structured to develop talent at all levels (including women), not just pay stars big money.
Something to think about when you say this- this is almost the exact same arguments that MLB made in the Curt Flood case, trying to head off Free Agency in baseball.
Before Andy Messerschmidt (not sure I spelled that right) won the arbitration case that opened up MLB Free Agency, players were paid a pittance relative to the overall finances of the team. The teams argued that they had put a ton of money into developing the players and working in the minor and major league communities, so they would lose money if they could not control movement and salaries (keep in mind that Curt Flood was challenging the "reserve" system that tied a player to the team unless the team chose the end their ties with the player- they player had no choice).
While the LIV and PGA are different leagues, and there is no counterpart to MLB, the idea of Free Agency is the same- the player essentially agrees to play for who they want in exchange for whatever amount of money they agree on.
The PGA has been in complete control of the pro golf games finances for so long, I'm not even sure that they can see the players' arguments about getting paid their worth and sharing more money.
Free Agency didn't bankrupt baseball. In fact, in 1967, there were 20 teams. They expanded to 24 in 1969 and are now at 30, with years of chatter that they want to add 2 more teams. Teams are also highly profitable. If the league was in dire financial straits, there would not be talk of selling the Nationals for $2-3 BILLION dollars.
The idea isn't much different in golf. Players have had their earnings capped for years, and most outside the top group rely on sponsors money.
This idea changes the whole paradigm. Now, players get paid for what they bring to the game- their skills. People WANT to see the best players, but the players rarely see that money. Now, they will.
That is it.
That is it.
It appears that you intentionally left out the most important part.
The players get paid their worth, not some artificial capped number set by the PGA.
LIV emerging won't kill the PGA either, it will likely take the shape of the Euro Soccer model where the best players are spread out through multiple leagues and then all play the majors. But like I said, what will really relegate them to B league status is if LIV starts plucking the top prospects or emerging talent.
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it is literally a glorified traveling golf exhibition.
That is it.
It appears that you intentionally left out the most important part.
The players get paid their worth, not some artificial capped number set by the PGA.
You mean the PGA Tour is similar to every other sports league?!?!
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it is literally a glorified traveling golf exhibition.
That is it.
It appears that you intentionally left out the most important part.
The players get paid their worth, not some artificial capped number set by the PGA.
the players aren't "getting paid their worth" because the league is not making any money, they are getting an arbitrary amount guaranteed up front based on their name/likeness (aka sponsorship) which is always somewhat subjective.
on the PGA tour players were getting paid whatever they were worth by sponsors too. that's how mickelson was the 2nd highest paid golfer last year at $46m.
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it is literally a glorified traveling golf exhibition.
That is it.
It appears that you intentionally left out the most important part.
The players get paid their worth, not some artificial capped number set by the PGA.
They are getting, what is in effect, up front appearance money. Many were getting that before - the same big names. A few years back Tiger got $3 mill(IIRC) to come to the Dubai Open and the penthouse at her Burj Khalifa ($10k per night).
The total purse is double that of the tour events and they only play 54 holes. What is not to like?
Again, the rich will get richer. In order to compete, the tour will now need to get individual tournaments to double their purses. Which means increase TV payments. Many of the smaller events will probably fold decreasing the chances of the lower tier players to win at events where the big boys are taking time off.
I think in the end, the schedule will need to be paired - again reducing the chances of the fringe players.
I think they need some help...
Because drugs increase quality of life....
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In comment 15736926 pjcas18 said:
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the PGA has no loyalty to these golfers.
if I could golf at an elite level I'd 100% go to whoever paid me the most.
unless you're going to get on a moral high horse and complain about the Saudi's which is probably hypocritical.
The PGA is a pure performance based league. And a NFP. It also pours an enormous amount of money into the communities where it holds events and charities across the country. As for not caring about its players, it does an excellent job of promoting up and coming talent. The PGA tour is structured to develop talent at all levels (including women), not just pay stars big money.
Go ahead and TRY to sell that line to the pros who are running a debt just to be PGA members. You'll be laughed out of the room in seconds.
Try selling the LIV to those same professionals. There is no room for them in the LIV. Its a rich get richer endeavor.
So... there really is 0 room to hide behind "human rights concerns" when trying to sell people PGA vs LIV.
nobody cares about the no-name guys getting paid by the liv tour or the pga tour. nobody is watching either because of that.
guys like koepka, bryson, dj, phil obviously, are millionaires tens if not hundreds of times over and they are making the equivalent decision of Lebron leaving the NBA to play for the harlem globetrotters. they are making a joke of themselves that deserves to be called out without factoring in the human rights red herring.
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so a couple of guys certainly will have a better quality of life.
Because drugs increase quality of life....
For some it does. What would a guy like Couples have done if MJ was legal, for example? It’s not an impact sport but these guys have back and knee injuries alll the time, some relief without opioids would be, and is, desirable.
So... there really is 0 room to hide behind "human rights concerns" when trying to sell people PGA vs LIV.
What is it? Which company?
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In comment 15737042 Racer said:
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so a couple of guys certainly will have a better quality of life.
Because drugs increase quality of life....
For some it does. What would a guy like Couples have done if MJ was legal, for example? It’s not an impact sport but these guys have back and knee injuries alll the time, some relief without opioids would be, and is, desirable.
MJ does not stop the pain on the course. Might it offer relief later? maybe. But it does not help a bad back.
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with companies and finance directly tied to the Chinese Communist Party.
So... there really is 0 room to hide behind "human rights concerns" when trying to sell people PGA vs LIV.
What is it? Which company?
PGA China. lol.
Also, google Shankai sports, it's basically the way China allowed golf to exist in China.
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In comment 15737066 NoPeanutz said:
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with companies and finance directly tied to the Chinese Communist Party.
So... there really is 0 room to hide behind "human rights concerns" when trying to sell people PGA vs LIV.
What is it? Which company?
PGA China. lol.
Also, google Shankai sports, it's basically the way China allowed golf to exist in China.
What has that got to do with big sponsors for PGA Tour...?
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In comment 15737089 section125 said:
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In comment 15737066 NoPeanutz said:
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with companies and finance directly tied to the Chinese Communist Party.
So... there really is 0 room to hide behind "human rights concerns" when trying to sell people PGA vs LIV.
What is it? Which company?
PGA China. lol.
Also, google Shankai sports, it's basically the way China allowed golf to exist in China.
What has that got to do with big sponsors for PGA Tour...?
who said sponsors? Maybe do some google searches and then report back your findings. The information is available to anyone who wants to find it.
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In comment 15737096 pjcas18 said:
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In comment 15737089 section125 said:
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In comment 15737066 NoPeanutz said:
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with companies and finance directly tied to the Chinese Communist Party.
So... there really is 0 room to hide behind "human rights concerns" when trying to sell people PGA vs LIV.
What is it? Which company?
PGA China. lol.
Also, google Shankai sports, it's basically the way China allowed golf to exist in China.
What has that got to do with big sponsors for PGA Tour...?
who said sponsors? Maybe do some google searches and then report back your findings. The information is available to anyone who wants to find it.
There probably isn't a top 500 or 1000 company that does not deal with China. So whoppee.
I could care less about the Saudi money and to the miniscule involvement by China.