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PFF Gives NYG High Marks on Next 3-Year Cap

Southern Man : 6/22/2022 8:50 am
#1 in Active Draft Capital

Quote:
NEW YORK GIANTS — RANK: 9TH
After spending a ton last offseason on wide receiver Kenny Golladay and cornerback Adoree’ Jackson, among others, the Giants’ new brass went the opposite direction heading into 2022, most notably releasing cornerback James Bradberry after a lengthy attempt to find a trade partner.

The old regime left some gifts behind as well though, with the 2022 first-round pick they acquired from the Bears turning into No. 7 overall pick tackle Evan Neal. Pairing Edge defender Kayvon Thibodeaux to go with Neal is the type of first-round haul that can legitimately change the course of a franchise in one offseason.

The Giants have the most active draft capital in the NFL and the second-most effective cap space from 2022-2024 — that’s how a franchise turns things around in a hurry after five awful seasons.

PFF 3-Year Cap Analysis - ( New Window )
What does it mean  
Gruber : 6/22/2022 9:13 am : link
the Giants have the most active draft capital in the NFL?
The Athletic also wrote about the cap  
US1 Giants : 6/22/2022 9:14 am : link
.

What does the Giants’ salary-cap situation look like in 2023 and beyond? - ( New Window )
RE: What does it mean  
Southern Man : 6/22/2022 9:22 am : link
In comment 15737794 Gruber said:
Quote:
the Giants have the most active draft capital in the NFL?


From the article:

Quote:
Rookie-contract players (“Active Draft Capital”):
We converted every rookie-contract player currently on each team’s roster into their Fitzgerald-Spielberger value in the same manner Timo Riske analyzed each team’s 2021 Draft capital to weight the value of each player. For example, No. 1 overall pick Jacksonville Jaguars edge defender Travon Walker would be worth 3,000 points on this scale. The Jaguars have the third-largest draft capital investment on their roster currently, trailing the New York teams in the Giants and Jets.

This aims to capture both the value of players that have not played an NFL snap yet, like Walker, as well as each team's total potential for surplus value from rookie contracts. The NFL rookie wage scale made draft picks more valuable than ever before because not only are you adding quality young talent, but you also realize significant savings as compared to the veteran player market. Thus, there is a clear connection to forward-looking cap space here.
Look how much cash the Eagles spend  
Essex : 6/22/2022 9:31 am : link
on that chart. It is amazing to me what they do with the cap stuff.
We don't have that many players worth keeping longer term so we  
Jimmy Googs : 6/22/2022 10:24 am : link
damn well better have a lot of cap space...
Cap Hell ends in 2022  
JonC : 6/22/2022 10:37 am : link
but Googs is right, the talent level leaves a ton of room for improvement and you cannot do it all from free agency.
Not having a QB  
dabru : 6/22/2022 10:56 am : link
on a second contract isn't always a good thing
2016  
Toth029 : 6/22/2022 11:05 am : link
Was an outlier. The team has been awful for a decade.

But with a new front office and brand new coaching staff, no long term contracts hurting the franchise, things are looking up.
RE: 2016  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/22/2022 11:12 am : link
In comment 15737898 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Was an outlier. The team has been awful for a decade.

But with a new front office and brand new coaching staff, no long term contracts hurting the franchise, things are looking up.


There are a few long-term contracts on this team that is preventing the GM and HC having total flexibility.
DG left the Giants in good cap shape  
Spiciest Memelord : 6/22/2022 11:32 am : link
for 2023 and beyond.
Eric  
Toth029 : 6/22/2022 11:32 am : link
Only ones I can think you can argue for is Leonard Williams, who has an out after 2022, and Kenny Golladay who has an out after 2023.

Personally feel Leo can be extended but I gotta imagine he's wanting that guaranteed money.
With the caveat  
Spiciest Memelord : 6/22/2022 11:33 am : link
that good talented teams are usually up against the cap. So yeah...
man  
djm : 6/22/2022 11:47 am : link
if they can just get Neal and Thomas out on the edges and keep them upright and productive for the next 5-8 years the Giants finally knocked down such a huge domino in terms of roster building and developing an identity. They would have plenty of wiggle room going forward in terms of FA, cap and the draft.

I never saw a bad OL that fielded two good tackles. It just doesn't happen. Get these kids going and we'd be set along the OL. Two cost controlled (Thomas for 2-3 more years) tanks up front...

Thibs and Thomas/Neal. Deliver us from NFL relegation/purgatory.
this year  
djm : 6/22/2022 11:51 am : link
(broken record) but this year we need to forge some building blocks once and for all. The aforementioned Neal and Thomas need to solidify things. WRs like Toney and Robinson. The rookie OL and TE. At the very least those guys....

D we need Thibs and Ojulari to lock down the edges along with maybe some sizzle from last year's holdovers (name escapes me) and McKinney/Love in the backend. Maybe the younger corners emerge...

Kids need to turn into men. Can we have one huge developmental year here that we see so many of the well run teams enjoy time and time again? Just one time.
RE: Cap Hell ends in 2022  
Jimmy Googs : 6/22/2022 12:01 pm : link
In comment 15737874 JonC said:
Quote:
but Googs is right, the talent level leaves a ton of room for improvement and you cannot do it all from free agency.


That's right...Schoen will need some prudent restraint on acquisitions/extensions and not just because he has the cap space. Look towards efforts that are continual, long-lasting improvements in the roster versus quick fixes. His predecessor had no feeling for this concept whatsoever in all those desperate moves over past 4 years.

In fact, once we get out of cap hell then using that free space should somehwat mirror the likely rebuild timing. And keep in mind another rookie QB contract will likely be coming on board next year so don't just overlever everything else because of that (like you know who)...
If that space in 3 years isn't used up  
Dnew15 : 6/22/2022 12:29 pm : link
to extend the likes of McKinney, Thibs, Neal, Thomas, etc...
we will be in the same exact spot for the next half decade too.
Cap Hell  
Giants73 : 6/22/2022 2:18 pm : link
Yeah right so bad. Was all fake news, Giants were never in cap hell, and if Schoen didn’t show his hand trying to trade Bradberry; he would have signed an extension and still been on the team. The last crew may not been able to select a coach but the cap was not mismanaged. Just more DG haters making sh!t up.
Sounds like you should stick to  
JonC : 6/22/2022 2:22 pm : link
politics.
RE: Cap Hell  
Jimmy Googs : 6/22/2022 2:38 pm : link
In comment 15738061 Giants73 said:
Quote:
Yeah right so bad. Was all fake news, Giants were never in cap hell, and if Schoen didn’t show his hand trying to trade Bradberry; he would have signed an extension and still been on the team. The last crew may not been able to select a coach but the cap was not mismanaged. Just more DG haters making sh!t up.


DG haters actually don't need to make anything up.

I used to get a lot of posts like these from some of the other guys in his fan club. Were you a charter member?
RE: 2016  
Milton : 6/22/2022 2:49 pm : link
In comment 15737898 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Was an outlier. The team has been awful injury-plagued for a decade.
...  
christian : 6/22/2022 3:21 pm : link
Discussion on the cap go sideways because a lot of fans don't look at the cap the same way the good teams do. There are some great interviews with Vin Marino of the Titans on the subject.

Teams are in 1/3 phases -- building up, in their window, or winding down.

Each player is a cost/benefit ratio. When you add the costs up, you hit the cap. When you add the benefits up, you either have enough to be good or not.

Too many fans view it as see! the team did things, they're fine. That's naive. The goal isn't activity. It's to have the resources required to match where you are in your cycle.

When you're on your way up, you're roughly hoping you have a bunch of player where the cost/benefit ratio will improve over time (meaning a guys will outplay their contract soon).

When you're in your window the ratio for a bunch of players is 1:1 -- (meaning the resources you spent were spot on).

When you're winding down, you accept to be under water (maybe guys are older, there's a lot of dead money etc.)

Cap hell is not the inability to do things. There are always tools to make moves.

Cap hell is having a bunch of bad cost/benefit ratio players.
christian  
JonC : 6/22/2022 3:49 pm : link
Great post, many thanks.
RE: christian  
christian : 6/22/2022 4:11 pm : link
In comment 15738157 JonC said:
Quote:
Great post, many thanks.


When Gettleman dismissed the question about being in a window, I wanted to ring his neck through the screen. (BTW there is some video from Abrams talking about 3-year horizons).

It's crystal clear to me the Giants were building for a 21/22/23 window.

Abrams basically said as much, when he was asked why the Giants leaned into spending in 2021, even though the cap was down from the Covid year.

Schoen simply didn't agree, and he got a jumpstart on winding down.
People who said we are in cap hell are clueless  
Spiciest Memelord : 6/22/2022 4:21 pm : link
to what it means. It means losing good young players because you can't sign them.

Giants haven't had the "problem" of having good young players to worry about signing for 10+ years.
RE: RE: 2016  
SGMen : 6/22/2022 5:18 pm : link
In comment 15737910 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15737898 Toth029 said:


Quote:


Was an outlier. The team has been awful for a decade.

But with a new front office and brand new coaching staff, no long term contracts hurting the franchise, things are looking up.



There are a few long-term contracts on this team that is preventing the GM and HC having total flexibility.
The Giants management and coaches will know "who" is worthy of keeping and cutting and perhaps getting (via draft and UFA) after this season.

We are in trouble, I think, if Jones fails. If he succeeds we can tag him and see how he does for a second solid season.

We are in touble if Galloday and Williams are quite average though both can be cut after the season but with ramifications.

I see Schoen being a "I don't care...you don't fit...bye" type of guy.
RE: People who said we are in cap hell are clueless  
Jimmy Googs : 6/22/2022 5:19 pm : link
In comment 15738201 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
to what it means. It means losing good young players because you can't sign them.

Giants haven't had the "problem" of having good young players to worry about signing for 10+ years.


not too savvy...
RE: RE: christian  
JonC : 6/22/2022 5:39 pm : link
In comment 15738185 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15738157 JonC said:


Quote:


Great post, many thanks.



When Gettleman dismissed the question about being in a window, I wanted to ring his neck through the screen. (BTW there is some video from Abrams talking about 3-year horizons).

It's crystal clear to me the Giants were building for a 21/22/23 window.

Abrams basically said as much, when he was asked why the Giants leaned into spending in 2021, even though the cap was down from the Covid year.

Schoen simply didn't agree, and he got a jumpstart on winding down.


Funny, DG sounded alot like fans here who don't think cap hell was present.
if you don't have any money to spent under the current cap  
gidiefor : Mod : 6/22/2022 6:40 pm : link
you are in cap hell

the longer that lasts -- the longer you are in cap hell

this year we started looking at the new NFL season with a negative cap number -- in other words we had to cut players just to get under the cap --

That's the definition of cap hell

Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on your viewpoint) we sucked, so cutting players barely made a difference to how bad we are/were.

After all the cuts to get us under the cap James Bradberry had to be cut just to make room for us to sign our 2022 draft class.

Pretty much every player the Giants signed had to be signed for vet minimum -- they does not give you a lot of flexibility to sign talent to bolster the team

Like it or not Gettleman created that situation with questionable signings. He did not manage the current cap very well and kept pushing the envelope of the current cap - pushing it into the next cap. Using that practice it was just a question of time before the can would have been kicked further.

I do give Shoen credit -- he did cut a lot of that crap out and appears to be a much more disciplined GM when it comes to the cap.

This is a good thing. Now let's see what he does with it

 
christian : 6/22/2022 7:14 pm : link
Gidiefor — that’s only true if you need to add a lot of talent or need to retain a lot of talent.

The Bills and the Rams will go into next year tight against the cap, but that’s fine.

They’re square in their window, and they have a bunch of guys at the right cost/benefit ratio.
the thing people misunderstand about cap space  
Eric on Li : 6/22/2022 10:07 pm : link
is what you can do with it when you have it. obviously rookie deals are slotted so functionally speaking cap room is irrelevant to players on rookie contracts (you can't draft enough players to max out the cap). so there are basically 2 ways to spend $ in the NFL:

1. extend players coming off rookie deals to 2nd contracts
2. spend (overspend) on free agents

not having any players worthy of extending, the odds are the only "punishment" from cap hell this offseason was saving the nyg future dead money from overpaid UFAs they didn't sign and gaining extra comp picks they didn't offset. and i'd argue that strategy was (correctly) more by choice than forced.

fact that may surprise people - the year 1 cap hits they gave Feliciano (2.98m), Tyrod (2.7m), and Glowinski (3.3m) combined were actually big enough to have afforded the year 1 cap hit of any big $ multiyear signing this offseason - including the very highly paid JC Jackson (8m), Von Miller (5m) or Terron Armstead (3.9m). so deals on that scale were possible they just made an active choice not to do them. cap hell didn't stop them this year and they may make a similar choice next year even if they have room because like schoen himself said teams rarely get good roi with top shelf UFAs. schoen inherited a team with 99 problems but the cap aint one. if he had $20m extra this offseason im really not sure much would have gone differently.
 
christian : 6/22/2022 10:42 pm : link
The Giants had a balance sheet issue this year, and Schoen wasn’t willing to sacrifice flexibility in 2023 and 2024, to solve it. He did a remarkably good job.

He gets to assemble a team with lots of options at his disposal.

Good players cost money, whether they are UFAs, trades, or retention.



RE: …  
Eric on Li : 6/22/2022 11:17 pm : link
In comment 15738501 christian said:
Quote:


Good players cost money, whether they are UFAs, trades, or retention.



sure but that doesn't change the fact that they could have afforded the cost of just about any "good player" they wanted if they thought the player was worth it.
Being able to move money around to afford a player  
Jimmy Googs : 6/23/2022 12:03 am : link
that is worth it doesn’t mean it is actually worth it from a team building perspective.

The 2022 NY Giants aren’t a player (non elite QB) away from winning anything substantial. Investments are better made at this stage in young developing players with some promise versus overpaying guys that have reached their ceiling. The latter will just leave this team overpromising and underperforming.

Understanding the cap doesn’t mean you understand player evaluation...
RE: ...  
Optimus-NY : 6/23/2022 6:49 am : link
In comment 15738127 christian said:
Quote:
Discussion on the cap go sideways because a lot of fans don't look at the cap the same way the good teams do. There are some great interviews with Vin Marino of the Titans on the subject.

Teams are in 1/3 phases -- building up, in their window, or winding down.

Each player is a cost/benefit ratio. When you add the costs up, you hit the cap. When you add the benefits up, you either have enough to be good or not.

Too many fans view it as see! the team did things, they're fine. That's naive. The goal isn't activity. It's to have the resources required to match where you are in your cycle.

When you're on your way up, you're roughly hoping you have a bunch of player where the cost/benefit ratio will improve over time (meaning a guys will outplay their contract soon).

When you're in your window the ratio for a bunch of players is 1:1 -- (meaning the resources you spent were spot on).

When you're winding down, you accept to be under water (maybe guys are older, there's a lot of dead money etc.)

Cap hell is not the inability to do things. There are always tools to make moves.

Cap hell is having a bunch of bad cost/benefit ratio players.


Precisely christian. Well said.
RE: Being able to move money around to afford a player  
Eric on Li : 6/23/2022 10:32 am : link
In comment 15738533 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
that is worth it doesn’t mean it is actually worth it from a team building perspective.

The 2022 NY Giants aren’t a player (non elite QB) away from winning anything substantial. Investments are better made at this stage in young developing players with some promise versus overpaying guys that have reached their ceiling. The latter will just leave this team overpromising and underperforming.

Understanding the cap doesn’t mean you understand player evaluation...


apparently understanding how to register for multiple handles doesn't mean you understand how to post...
RE: RE: Being able to move money around to afford a player  
Jimmy Googs : 6/23/2022 11:20 am : link
In comment 15738734 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15738533 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


that is worth it doesn’t mean it is actually worth it from a team building perspective.

The 2022 NY Giants aren’t a player (non elite QB) away from winning anything substantial. Investments are better made at this stage in young developing players with some promise versus overpaying guys that have reached their ceiling. The latter will just leave this team overpromising and underperforming.

Understanding the cap doesn’t mean you understand player evaluation...



apparently understanding how to register for multiple handles doesn't mean you understand how to post...


Only have and need one, despite you continuing to reach with that one.

And don't be so irritable, it's not like the Giants lost their ability to franchise tag all their valuable players going forward...
RE: Being able to move money around to afford a player  
christian : 6/23/2022 11:40 am : link
In comment 15738533 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
that is worth it doesn’t mean it is actually worth it from a team building perspective.


Exactly. This is why you can't measure cap health by activity and not always dollars under the cap.

A great example is the Bills. They'll go into next year slightly over the cap, but they'll be fine. Their roster is full of good players at the right cost.

What Schoen is striving for is financial neutrality. He's winding down the Gettleman hypothesis, and creating a blank slate to build out his.
lol corner.schoenfluffinginteractive.com  
Spiciest Memelord : 6/23/2022 12:00 pm : link
I mean if Schoen isn't a complete moron he has a clear runway with the cap for 2023. Its how DG set up the contracts. And not because he cared so much for the Giants and his replacement but because he planned to clear up tons of cap space for Barkley and Jones.

Of course that is not likely going to happen...
RE: RE: Being able to move money around to afford a player  
Jimmy Googs : 6/23/2022 12:10 pm : link
In comment 15738792 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15738533 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


that is worth it doesn’t mean it is actually worth it from a team building perspective.



Exactly. This is why you can't measure cap health by activity and not always dollars under the cap.

A great example is the Bills. They'll go into next year slightly over the cap, but they'll be fine. Their roster is full of good players at the right cost.

What Schoen is striving for is financial neutrality. He's winding down the Gettleman hypothesis, and creating a blank slate to build out his.


Yeah, I get your analogy.

I, and maybe a few others on here, would have probably liked to see Schoen do a little more turnover of some guys with waning value, but I get it. Rookie GM not trying to walk in like a bull in a china shop, and giving a few guys who work hard a chance to turn it around, or probably moreso let them hang themselves if he did an adequate player evaluation during the offseason.

Giants can have some successes this year without having a successful year on the field...
So unsurprising to see the same names carry water  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/23/2022 12:14 pm : link
for the worst GM in franchise history.
RE: RE: Being able to move money around to afford a player  
Eric on Li : 6/23/2022 3:57 pm : link
In comment 15738792 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15738533 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


that is worth it doesn’t mean it is actually worth it from a team building perspective.



Exactly. This is why you can't measure cap health by activity and not always dollars under the cap.

A great example is the Bills. They'll go into next year slightly over the cap, but they'll be fine. Their roster is full of good players at the right cost.

What Schoen is striving for is financial neutrality. He's winding down the Gettleman hypothesis, and creating a blank slate to build out his.


so call it roster hell. or bad organization for a decade hell. that's the problem driving Schoen's decision making far moreso than the cap. Acting like the cap was a significant obstacle is a pre-excuse that supposes he has no agency in making decisions when he did in fact have choices. it's the tail wagging the dog.

and to be clear I've made no argument against the path he took, i was advocating almost this exact path pre-FA, but that doesn't mean there weren't other paths possible. now that we know the exact cap numbers it's inarguable that they could have accommodated the cap # of literally any player transacted in lieu of choosing some combination of Taylor/Feliciano/Glowinski.
What player could we have signed in free agency that could  
Jimmy Googs : 6/23/2022 4:12 pm : link
start at QB, Center and Right Guard, all the same time?

Because that's what very well those 3 guys will be doing by possibly October...
RE: What player could we have signed in free agency that could  
Eric on Li : 6/23/2022 4:32 pm : link
In comment 15739120 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
start at QB, Center and Right Guard, all the same time?

Because that's what very well those 3 guys will be doing by possibly October...


they drafted Ezeudu pretty high for an interior OL that's probably going to end up starting the year on the bench.

they could have used that same pick for any QB in the draft other than Pickett.

they could have traded Barkley or Jones to create more room to do all of the above and then brought in any other players they chose.

they made their choices and publicly acknowledged consideration of the alternatives mentioned above - while also commenting that spending on bigger ticket FA's rarely work out. they made the decisions they made for very justifiable non-cap reasons which they've explained in interviews. grading them against a curve of "cap hell" is missing the point on the path they chose.
...  
christian : 6/23/2022 5:07 pm : link
In comment 15739092 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
so call it roster hell. or bad organization for a decade hell ...

and to be clear I've made no argument against the path he took, i was advocating almost this exact path pre-FA, but that doesn't mean there weren't other paths possible ...


1) That's literally the point everyone is making. We are all agreeing with you.

2) No one is saying there weren't. We are all agreeing with you.

Maybe you define cap hell as something else, but the point I made -- based on the pros and experts I've listened to -- cap hell is being upside down on the cost/benefit ratio of your roster.

Not how many dollars you have free, and not whether you can afford a single expensive player.
Free Agency comes first and Schoen had to address some  
Jimmy Googs : 6/23/2022 5:07 pm : link
of the immediate issues on the OL and hoped the Draft fell the way he wanted to and ensure he grabbed a starting Tackle. He also had to put something credible on the QB Depth Chart after the disaster that ensued in the second half of last year. Both of these were mission critical with the few bucks he had to play with in free agency and are spit-n-glue approaches versus just pursuing a single pricier/flashy signing that doesn't cover enough issues and possibly reduces flexibility he would rather have next year.

Trading Jones and/or Barkley could have helped free up some space and you wouldn't get any argument out of me to do it. But obviously they chose to give them another chance and/or the offers were bad or non-existent.

Besides they could kill it this year and we would be short a much-needed franchise tag to keep them both. :-)
RE: ...  
Eric on Li : 6/23/2022 5:35 pm : link
In comment 15739197 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15739092 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


so call it roster hell. or bad organization for a decade hell ...

and to be clear I've made no argument against the path he took, i was advocating almost this exact path pre-FA, but that doesn't mean there weren't other paths possible ...



1) That's literally the point everyone is making. We are all agreeing with you.

2) No one is saying there weren't. We are all agreeing with you.

Maybe you define cap hell as something else, but the point I made -- based on the pros and experts I've listened to -- cap hell is being upside down on the cost/benefit ratio of your roster.

Not how many dollars you have free, and not whether you can afford a single expensive player.


sorry but whether or not you can afford to do things is pretty foundational to the function of any cap.

if you can afford to do expensive things you aren't in "hell", that's when you can't afford to do things. just as it routinely happens in the nba or nhl, there are times when teams simply can't afford to make certain moves because of the cap. that's not what happened here.
 
christian : 6/23/2022 6:38 pm : link
In comment 15739228 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
sorry but whether or not you can afford to do things is pretty foundational to the function of any cap …

if you can afford to do expensive things you aren't in "hell", that's when you can't afford to do things …


1) Not always, and that’s my point you are missing. If a team can’t afford to do much because they have a roster full of good, well paid players, that’s not hell, that’s success (example being the Bills).

2) I was responding to your example, where the Giants could have afforded one premium player, if they had pooled the money they used to moderately upgrade a few positions. That’s not a compelling example of “expensive things” that’s an “expensive thing.”
RE: RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 6/23/2022 7:04 pm : link
In comment 15739228 Eric on Li said:
Quote:


sorry but whether or not you can afford to do things is pretty foundational to the function of any cap.

if you can afford to do expensive things you aren't in "hell", that's when you can't afford to do things. just as it routinely happens in the nba or nhl, there are times when teams simply can't afford to make certain moves because of the cap. that's not what happened here.


The signed a journeyman middling QB, a couple of average interior lineman of which one is a project converting to Center. In order to do those pedestrian moves and sign their draft class, it still required them to shed their starting CB Bradberry. Otherwise, they are restructuring more contracts.

You don't think that is hell?
they only had to cut 2 starters and 1 had no cap savings  
Eric on Li : 6/23/2022 7:56 pm : link
that is below average for any team in any offseason, let alone "cap hell".

with the combined cap hits they gave just Glowinski and Tyrod they could have afforded Tyreek Hill's 6.4m cap hit and still signed feliciano - and hill's 30m AAV was the highest given to any non-QB this offseason. include Slayton or Barkley in that deal and you can still bring in Tyrod, Glowinski, or both.

i obviously dont think that would have been the right move because this franchise shouldn't be giving up top 10 draft picks under any circumstance but it shows there was a pretty wide range of players they could have added if they wanted to.
Nonsensical examples that you yourself think are stupid  
Jimmy Googs : 6/23/2022 8:45 pm : link
aren’t helping your cause here. When I read a good point on this, I will respond.

Surprise me...
RE: Nonsensical examples that you yourself think are stupid  
Eric on Li : 6/23/2022 9:29 pm : link
In comment 15739479 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
aren’t helping your cause here. When I read a good point on this, I will respond.

Surprise me...


if that's all it takes to get you to stop responding to my posts you should have said so years ago.
RE: RE: Nonsensical examples that you yourself think are stupid  
Jimmy Googs : 6/23/2022 9:49 pm : link
In comment 15739649 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15739479 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


aren’t helping your cause here. When I read a good point on this, I will respond.

Surprise me...



if that's all it takes to get you to stop responding to my posts you should have said so years ago.


Don’t be sore. You can make decent cases if you stay away from signing and extending everyone,,,
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