Duggan posted an article earlier speculating on how Schoen will handle free agency, especially compared to his predecessors in Reese & DG.
Some points:
1) Schoen's obviously never been a GM before so it is hard to say exactly what he'd do in the big chair, but Duggan points to how Buffalo approached FA when Schoen was employed there. The Bills didn't go for blockbuster moves, but they were big into mid level signings, with Duggan citing Beasley & John Brown.
2) Thinks locking up young guys who have shown promise-AT & Xavier-should be high priorities next offseason.
3) Writes that obviously how much $ we have next offseason depends on DJ's future. If we use the franchise tag on DJ-lunacy IMO-that's a $31.5 million hit & will all but cripple how much $ we have to spend. If we move on from DJ, we'll have a ton of cap space & presumably a QB on a rookie deal. That'll give us even more $ to burn.
4) Duggan points out we can create $24.7 million in cap space if we part ways with Leo & KG. Personally, I think there's a good chance this is Kenny G's last season in NY.
5) Doesn't think Schoen will be like Reese & DG, ala throwing money around like a sailor on shore leave.
Good article if you subscibe to The Athletic.
Sure, I read it. Didn't mean to pass that off as my own idea. Athletic is easy worth the subscription.
Gettleman was just a moron from the start. He mixed and matched poor player evaluations with crappy contracts all along while dealing with self-concept issues. His ego and/or desperation typically got in the way of contracting better deals.
Dumb and Dumbest...
Logically this makes sense. Teams either keep or get comp for great players.
A lot of the times, when you shop at the top UFA market, guys attitude problems.
In the times though a guy shakes free, simply because his team cannot afford, that’s a perfectly good time to spend at the top of the market.
Who were the big-money imports? Canty? Boley? Rolle? Baas? Expensive pieces, but also key contributors to a championship. Schwartz? A failed bet, but not a huge dollar loss, despite the disastrous on-field impact.
2016 was a different story. With his back against the wall, Jerry overpaid, and a year later he faced the consequences.
This just seems like common sense to me.
That all said, I thought what the Rams did was risky as hell and it worked out.
Whatever they are doing, bottle it.
The Giants made out really well with Kareem McKenzie and Antonio Pierce, for instance.
Does the NFL actually have some minimum spending rule, I think so?
the bills were selective in how they approached UFA and I expect Schoen will be too. though they were pretty aggressive traders.
also as much as people think of the Rams as big spenders in UFA they actually lose more than they gain, which is why they've collected more comp picks than any team the last several years. they are 1 of if not the most aggressive team in trades not UFA.
Does the NFL actually have some minimum spending rule, I think so?
exactly right. if you don't have players to give 2nd contracts there's a minimal opportunity cost to blowing the $.
What the hell, as a goof...
Hopefully Shoen doesn't get involved in the first days of Free Agency and look for bargains and builds through the draft and I agree with Eric keep our better picks here.
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if you're drafting is sh*t, which was the case with our two previous regimes. Might as well spend the money, you can't take it with you as they say.
Does the NFL actually have some minimum spending rule, I think so?
exactly right. if you don't have players to give 2nd contracts there's a minimal opportunity cost to blowing the $.
I don't know if I agree. I think it's how you end up with a Leonard Williams contract on your team at best.
Whatever they are doing, bottle it.
The last two super bowl champs…bucs & rams.
Who were the big-money imports? Canty? Boley? Rolle? Baas? Expensive pieces, but also key contributors to a championship. Schwartz? A failed bet, but not a huge dollar loss, despite the disastrous on-field impact.
2016 was a different story. With his back against the wall, Jerry overpaid, and a year later he faced the consequences.
100%
Whatever they are doing, bottle it.
I'm not a fan of big money UFA's unless they are the last cog or final missing piece where you have the money and know you can make a run at the SB.
Knowing Schoen VERY LITTLE but realizing he is a new GM, I think Jones and Barkley have good enough seasons to warrant tags and re-signing but neither will be! We will build via the draft and allocate resources that play to the future. Both Jones and Barkley have injury histories.
This is the most important position on the team. The Giants have pissed money away on other positions in recent years. Including KG currently. If you really think that there might be something with DJ you give him the 5th year, regardless.
What I think is going on is that they have little to no intentions in signing him. This is to pacify the owner.
Overall odds are against DJ in turning it around. That is why I never get hung up on what all the DJ haters here say. It will work itself out one way or the other. None of us are qualified to assert certainty in a players ability or potential success.
Not giving him the 5th year was the sign they will not stick with him.
If you truly believed that you can turn him around you know you need at least 2 seasons. So why would you franchise him if he did good this year and pay more? Not a very cap wise strategy. If you believe that you are the QB whisperer then why not save the 10 million and give him the 5th year? That is because it is not their intentions.
That is all I have to say on the matter.
We are still in the honeymoon phase, so I take everything with a grain of salt.
I have also not bought into this regime yet. They need to show improvement at all levels. I don't mind losing if it is a talent issue, but if they don't play sharp and look unorganized that is on the coaches. They are not going to turn this around in a year. but by year 3 they better be in the top 8 teams in the NFL, or we can show them the door.
1.) JPP
2.) OBJ (who they then traded away)
3.) Sterling Shepard
That is horrendous scouting and players development by this organization for too long.
If it makes you feel better to take the last few draft classes out because they are still on rookie contracts - it makes them 3 for 70 from 2010 - 2019.
But I disagree with the logic in your post.
You say the odds are against him turning it around and that you will would make him do it 2 years in a row anyway. But you don't think, with that as the backdrop, that it isn't worth putting an extra $10M at risk in a total cap of $200M+?
To say nothing of the fact that if you gave Jones the 5th year option and he continues to falter in 2022 beyond repair then you just wasted all the money under the option itself because it's guaranteed.
Anyway my thoughts, let me know what I am missing...
I would classify it more as more strategic, or picking one's spot.
This is the most important position on the team. The Giants have pissed money away on other positions in recent years. Including KG currently. If you really think that there might be something with DJ you give him the 5th year, regardless.
What I think is going on is that they have little to no intentions in signing him. This is to pacify the owner.
Overall odds are against DJ in turning it around. That is why I never get hung up on what all the DJ haters here say. It will work itself out one way or the other. None of us are qualified to assert certainty in a players ability or potential success.
Not giving him the 5th year was the sign they will not stick with him.
If you truly believed that you can turn him around you know you need at least 2 seasons. So why would you franchise him if he did good this year and pay more? Not a very cap wise strategy. If you believe that you are the QB whisperer then why not save the 10 million and give him the 5th year? That is because it is not their intentions.
That is all I have to say on the matter.
We are still in the honeymoon phase, so I take everything with a grain of salt.
I have also not bought into this regime yet. They need to show improvement at all levels. I don't mind losing if it is a talent issue, but if they don't play sharp and look unorganized that is on the coaches. They are not going to turn this around in a year. but by year 3 they better be in the top 8 teams in the NFL, or we can show them the door.
I don't believe the Giants have any intention of franchise tagging Jones, no matter how he performs. That doesn't mean they won't sign him to a new contract if he does well this season. I continue to believe it's not a zero sum game, let him walk or franchise tag him for $31.5M. There is a third option of offering him a 2-3 year deal in the $10-$12M per year range. Jones knows there is no way he is getting $31.5M per year next year and if the Giants, who know him best, don't offer him that, no other team will either. If he lights it up this year, a middle of the road contract is much more likely.
This just seems like common sense to me.
That all said, I thought what the Rams did was risky as hell and it worked out.
I’m with you Eric and I think the argument is about fit. If you have a team philosophy, resigning a player who is successful within that framework is a low risk move.
Contrast that with a signing like Golladay. Probably a decent player but no production.
The career of Yannick Ngakoue is a good illustration. Developed into an emerging star with the Jags. Signed a big FA contract with Minnesota, a team with solid scouting. So disappointing he is traded to the Ravens mid season, where he again is disappointing and is released. In 2021, Ngakoue signs with the Raiders and registers double digit sacks. Did Ngakoue forget how to play football when he signed with Minnesota? Doubtful. He wasn’t a fit for what they wanted to do and now that he is back in a framework that fits him he again is a plus player. Illustrative.
That’s why I was so convinced we needed to resign Tomlinson. We KNEW he works in the Giants system. Instead, we used part of the money to sign a player who didn’t fit.
I know there are coaching and team building continuity factors in all of this but the point holds. Retaining your own FAs is low risk.
This is the most important position on the team. The Giants have pissed money away on other positions in recent years. Including KG currently. If you really think that there might be something with DJ you give him the 5th year, regardless.
What I think is going on is that they have little to no intentions in signing him. This is to pacify the owner.
Overall odds are against DJ in turning it around. That is why I never get hung up on what all the DJ haters here say. It will work itself out one way or the other. None of us are qualified to assert certainty in a players ability or potential success.
Not giving him the 5th year was the sign they will not stick with him.
If you truly believed that you can turn him around you know you need at least 2 seasons.
2 years is rushing it. He needs at least until we’ve decarbonized the economy.
If Jones lights it up, the market will be stronger than 2/24M.
Jameis Winston is really the only QB in that range, and he got 2/28M coming off a torn ACL.
If it makes you feel better to take the last few draft classes out because they are still on rookie contracts - it makes them 3 for 70 from 2010 - 2019.
Part of that is the regime changes, every new GM/Coach sweeps the cupboard clean and starts bringing in their own guys. But yeah, it's not like any of them went on to be stars for another team either.
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In comment 15739367 Spiciest Memelord said:
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if you're drafting is sh*t, which was the case with our two previous regimes. Might as well spend the money, you can't take it with you as they say.
Does the NFL actually have some minimum spending rule, I think so?
exactly right. if you don't have players to give 2nd contracts there's a minimal opportunity cost to blowing the $.
I don't know if I agree. I think it's how you end up with a Leonard Williams contract on your team at best.
it's probably Leonard Williams. he's not the issue w/r/t blowing money in UFA, the issue are deals like Golladay where you pay 10% of your cap to a guy who is playing below replacement level. free agency is a short term tool with long term implications that always surface pain if overused. nobody bats 1.000 in FA.
If Schoen starts being aggressive in FA, that's probably not a good sign to his recent drafts.
Kenny Golladay's cap hit at $21.2M comes in #1 amongst all Wide Receivers in the league.
Good lord.
Thanks DG...
Exactly, that's why it's baseball season...
Hopefully AT and McKinney play well enough to earn extensions and the Giants won't be tempted to play the top of the UFA market in the coming years.
Whatever they are doing, bottle it.
This just seems like common sense to me.
That all said, I thought what the Rams did was risky as hell and it worked out.
I agree with most of this, but I would add a couple more points- something I think Eric in Li (may have the wrong poster, but trying to give credit where due) referenced as well.
I think Schoen has indicated that certain positions in the nFL are getting out of control financially. Traditionally, you have always paid a premium for a good to great QB and RB. However, the modern NFL is about the passing game and stopping the passing game. Ergo, positions that have not traditionally been paid well now are being so.
Before I get into that, the Rams and Giants are going to be two different models for different reasons. The Rams realized that they have stars with short windows and few young stars. Thus, they took a gamble (and it paid off in spades) that they could load up and the new positions of importance (CB, WR, rush DL and QB) and just have able players at other positions and succeed. The Giants haven’t built that base and all their players or interest are young and on first contracts (Galloday and Williams are not long term pieces and might not last past this season).
Now, IMO, the new positions of importance are: QB (as always), WR, CB, slot corner, rush end/LB and RB who can catch the ball while still running effectively between the tackles, and OT. Players at these positions now get paid ridiculous sums (even though salaries overall are rising quickly- these are higher than most).
Thus, going back to Eric’s point, I suggest adding that a team must draft well at these positions, develop and re-sign them- and keep competent players at the other positions. Having your own at those key positions allows a team to give out smaller and shorter contracts to vets to fill in these other positions without being over the barrel.
The Giants have promising players at both OT spots and rush ends/LB. They drafted players for the slot corner and modern WR. They have a RB who fits the modern mold, but he might only be here another year.
The big questions are QB, CB and more WR. IMO, this is where the next two drafts will prioritize early. However, the point I would add to Eric’s idea is that the Giants will need to continue to draft and target the key spots- what the Steelers have done well is to draft at a position of strength and develop those players so when a players performance drops off or he wants more money and leaves, you have an in-house backfill at the key spots. Look how many rush ends/LB and WR have rotated through that team over the years.
Once you have players at the big prize positions, you can invest in a mix of draft picks and FA at the rest.
over relying on free agency isn't ideal but there are times when the opportunity cost isn't as severe because you simply haven't drafted well enough to have players worth resigning - which is where this organization has been for far too long.
case in point on that is leonard williams because for all the bitching about him and his cap hit there's quite literally not much in the way of better alternatives that were available. great players don't hit FA. So the alternative was using that money on more Schwartz, Baas, Vernon, Jackrabbit, Snacks, Marshall, Solder, Golladay, Bradberry, Jackson, Ryan, types. i'd argue he's delivered by a good margin the best ROI of any FA we've signed since McKenzie probably. who if memory serves was also complained about for being one of the highest paid RT's in football but not a superstar. their problem the last 10 years was not finding more players as good as leonard williams to get on 2nd contracts be it from draft or FA, not less.
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Cost control and make him do it 2 years in a row. You can still draft a QB next year if you are on the fence about him.
This is the most important position on the team. The Giants have pissed money away on other positions in recent years. Including KG currently. If you really think that there might be something with DJ you give him the 5th year, regardless.
What I think is going on is that they have little to no intentions in signing him. This is to pacify the owner.
Overall odds are against DJ in turning it around. That is why I never get hung up on what all the DJ haters here say. It will work itself out one way or the other. None of us are qualified to assert certainty in a players ability or potential success.
Not giving him the 5th year was the sign they will not stick with him.
If you truly believed that you can turn him around you know you need at least 2 seasons. So why would you franchise him if he did good this year and pay more? Not a very cap wise strategy. If you believe that you are the QB whisperer then why not save the 10 million and give him the 5th year? That is because it is not their intentions.
That is all I have to say on the matter.
We are still in the honeymoon phase, so I take everything with a grain of salt.
I have also not bought into this regime yet. They need to show improvement at all levels. I don't mind losing if it is a talent issue, but if they don't play sharp and look unorganized that is on the coaches. They are not going to turn this around in a year. but by year 3 they better be in the top 8 teams in the NFL, or we can show them the door.
I don't believe the Giants have any intention of franchise tagging Jones, no matter how he performs. That doesn't mean they won't sign him to a new contract if he does well this season. I continue to believe it's not a zero sum game, let him walk or franchise tag him for $31.5M. There is a third option of offering him a 2-3 year deal in the $10-$12M per year range. Jones knows there is no way he is getting $31.5M per year next year and if the Giants, who know him best, don't offer him that, no other team will either. If he lights it up this year, a middle of the road contract is much more likely.
Agree that it is not all or nothing. If he plays well and the coaches like him the Giants could sign him for two or three years at 20ish. Still gives Jones time to cash in big if he is able to show consistency.
Whatever they are doing, bottle it.
Drafting and coaching.
From the mid 90s until 2021, they didn't have a defense finish below 18th in PPG. Often was a too 10 or even a top 3 unit. Remember when they started Duck Hodges and Mason Rudolph? Finished 8-8. Splendid coaching. They had a putrid offense with a washed QB and still finished with a winning record.
Whatever they are doing, bottle it.
They made the playoffs last year despite fielding an awful offense.
It’s called good nfl defense. It’s alive and well, at least in the afc central it is.
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not to miller a thread, but I saw a blurb the other day that the Steelers haven't had a losing record since 2003. Whatever they are doing, bottle it.
Roethlisberger is a bigtime creep and I'm surprised the Rooney family stuck by him (I wouldn't've wanted the Giants to), but that means they didn't have a losing record for the entirety of his 18-year career. Hate to give him credit, but that's something.
They say Big Ben was loved by his teammates which is why he survived. He was young and arrogant perhaps. I know he got called for possibly raping a woman I do believe but wasn't convicted or charged even as I recall. Look, the guy could play but he played up to his limits and isn't able to go anymore so he laid his cleats down. I wish Eli had laid them down a year sooner as well.
1.) JPP
2.) OBJ (who they then traded away)
3.) Sterling Shepard
That is horrendous scouting and players development by this organization for too long.
JPP and OBJ were damaged goods, Shepard was just a dumb mistake because there was no talent left on the roster so they felt they needed to hang on to the best they had.