What the Knicks did last night:
NYK trades 11th pick to OKC
OKC trades 3 firsts (23 DEN, DET, WASH) to NYK
NYK then trades 23 DEN, 4 seconds to CHA for 13th pick
NYK then trade 13th pick & Kemba Walker to DET for MKE's 25 first
NYK trades 11, Kemba, 4 2nds & gets 3 future 1sts
Pick Protections:
'25 MKE Protected 1-4
'23 DET Protected 1-18 => '24 Protected 1-18 => '25 Protected 1-13 => '26 Protected 1-11 => '27 Protected 1-9 or Second Rounder
'23 WAS Protected 1-14 => '24 Protected 1-12 => '25 Protected 1-10 => '26 Protected 1-8 => '27 Second Round Pick
Second Round
Knicks select (F)Trevor Keels, Duke at #42.
Brogdon would be a good choice because even though he is overpaid, his contract is only two more years.
All these second tier guys are a crapshoot. Brunson looked like he too some steps forward the last two years and if you sign him, you are betting that growth continues.
And that could well happen. However, it is just as likely or even more likely that he levels off or even regresses. Chris Childs put up numbers very similar to Brunson's the year before the Knicks signed him to a six year deal. Childs never lived up to that deal and it is quite possible that Brunson won't live up to his contract, especially if you are paying him 28 million per.
Probably a minimum of 3 firsts (at least one of our own unprotected) and two pick swaps (if he’s even available, I’m skeptical). As good as Murray is, he’s not a superstar and if you give up a package as if he is, they won’t have ammo to go after the next disgruntled actual superstar. Comparatively Brunson is a lower risk move that may not have the same ceiling but allows you to keep your ammo for Donovan Mitchell or someone else in a year or two if they force their way out.
Show me what you're looking at though.
He scored more? If he scored more because he shot more, that doesn't really matter if his percentages went to hell
If he scored more while staying efficient that matters a lot.
As the primary ball handler did he start throwing the ball all over the place with turnovers? If not, that matters because it shows he's capable of doing more than he's asked to do playing off Luka being ball dominant.
In 17 games without Luka, Brunson averaged 20.4 points, 3.9 rebounds and 7.5 assists with 2.1 turnovers . He took 16.2 shots per game with splits of 49.3/35/80.6
So basically big jump in production while efficiency stayed relatively the same.
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Might as well keep dreaming before reality hits.
Probably a minimum of 3 firsts (at least one of our own unprotected) and two pick swaps (if he’s even available, I’m skeptical). As good as Murray is, he’s not a superstar and if you give up a package as if he is, they won’t have ammo to go after the next disgruntled actual superstar. Comparatively Brunson is a lower risk move that may not have the same ceiling but allows you to keep your ammo for Donovan Mitchell or someone else in a year or two if they force their way out.
I think all the 1sts we added up were so that we could use our 1sts in a Murray or superstar trade. Our 1sts will be way more attractive because the other team can negotiate the protections. I do think there are more irons in the fire than just Brunson. I don't think he leaves Chicago but Lavine is getting interesting. Why hasn't he been locked up already? Also the Murray thing could heat up. There could be situations emerging that we haven't even heard about yet. Or maybe the Knicks will come up empty as usual. Who knows. I just do think it's interesting that suddenly out of nowhere, draft night the Knicks made this pivot. This is not February rumors of Durant coming here in the Summer. This happened a week outside of free agency.
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In comment 15741456 widmerseyebrow said:
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Might as well keep dreaming before reality hits.
Probably a minimum of 3 firsts (at least one of our own unprotected) and two pick swaps (if he’s even available, I’m skeptical). As good as Murray is, he’s not a superstar and if you give up a package as if he is, they won’t have ammo to go after the next disgruntled actual superstar. Comparatively Brunson is a lower risk move that may not have the same ceiling but allows you to keep your ammo for Donovan Mitchell or someone else in a year or two if they force their way out.
I think all the 1sts we added up were so that we could use our 1sts in a Murray or superstar trade. Our 1sts will be way more attractive because the other team can negotiate the protections. I do think there are more irons in the fire than just Brunson. I don't think he leaves Chicago but Lavine is getting interesting. Why hasn't he been locked up already? Also the Murray thing could heat up. There could be situations emerging that we haven't even heard about yet. Or maybe the Knicks will come up empty as usual. Who knows. I just do think it's interesting that suddenly out of nowhere, draft night the Knicks made this pivot. This is not February rumors of Durant coming here in the Summer. This happened a week outside of free agency.
Yeah it feels like they are either bluffing the mavs into accepting a sign and trade and then adding somrone else OR THEY SIGN brunson outright and trade or sign and trade for someone
Neither is giving up 60 million in their first big deal to go somewhere else. So Washington and Chicago are in no rush to sign them.
Free agency is pretty bare right now and will continue to be as long the the Bird rights are in place.
That's why the Knicks are forced to over pay for a 2nd/3rd option on a championship team
The NBA has destroyed FA with the bird rights max deals. Players are forced to sign max deals with their first team and force trades it's the only way to make top money.
The Knicks are playing it the right way but they have proven not to be able to pull the big name and have had zero draft luck.
As much as we value RJ, Grimes, Quickley, Toppin, etc other teams don't, they are all at best 3rd or 4th options on a good team. Part of the reason the pistons valued Ivey over anything we could put together.
I am not a fan of the Brunson deal because of it, I would prefer a tank with the kids we have now.
43 wins with RJ, Randle, Mitch, Fournier and Brunson and no cap room gets us nothing. Yes, we have draft picks but for a star, teams want young cheap talent and draft picks.
I hope they find a taker for Randle if they’re bringing Brunson on board. I want him gone either way but $200+ million guaranteed to those two over the next four years is a bit much, especially with another $100+ headed RJ’s way.
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43 wins with RJ, Randle, Mitch, Fournier and Brunson and no cap room gets us nothing.
I hope they find a taker for Randle if they’re bringing Brunson on board. I want him gone either way but $200+ million guaranteed to those two over the next four years is a bit much, especially with another $100+ headed RJ’s way.
It's going to take 2 things to get rid of Randle draft capital and a willingness to move him.
I think the Knicks over value Randle which they need to prove me wrong.
Also if the plan is to cut his minutes and his usage that is going to continue to decrease his value especially because he will be a distraction if that is the plan.
Is the front office willing to cut bait and get nothing for him for the long term future?
IMO I think they will continue to give him 35 minutes and try to make the playoffs this year.
Thibs wants to win now and IMO Thibs thinks Randle is a plus player to make that happen.
I thjink Burks and Noel will both be gone, No room for them on this team..
Obi needs to be the first big off the bench if Randle is still here, no more of this not playing Randle and Obi together..
If randle is here he moves off the ball, become more effecient player, rely on Brunson to set him up, not the other way around and if he cant he needs to come off the bench..
With Brunson 25 million makes him a middle of the road PG in terms of compensation..
Imagine if the Knicks ever had that big offseason and fielded a big time team….
So true. I live in Brooklyn and last year during the Knicks surprising campaign there were so many people around wearing Knicks gear. Rarely if ever did I see anyone with Nets gear despite the Knicks being overachievers while the Nets were legit title contenders.
Yep the Knicks can own this town like nobody else can. Unlike every other sport, they have no competition. The Nets have never even been a blip on the radar. In the 90's NY revolved around the Knicks in the spring except for '94 when they kind of shared it with the Rangers a bit
Are you telling me none of the players picked after 11th will amount to anything in this league? None of the those 3 picks will be used by us, or conferred at all?!?
Adding Brunson will improve the team no doubt, but I really don't know if he's a 25M a year player. What kind of cap flexibility will we have with him and Randle, and after signing Barrett? Oh, I guess, that's where the draft picks come in.
Just draft better, it's that simple.
Are you telling me none of the players picked after 11th will amount to anything in this league? None of the those 3 picks will be used by us, or conferred at all?!?
Adding Brunson will improve the team no doubt, but I really don't know if he's a 25M a year player. What kind of cap flexibility will we have with him and Randle, and after signing Barrett? Oh, I guess, that's where the draft picks come in.
Just draft better, it's that simple.
If we're extending Barrett, we need to cap out this year, so we can use bird rights on RJ and go over the cap and not use play ol' cap space on RJ.
The problem is when your big 3 are all firmly in the tier 2 of NBA players, that only put you in the mediocrity hell.
It's amusing Rose was brought here to recruit stars, and the only one he can reel in, maybe, is his god-son.
I know Stephen A. is a buffoon but he made the point that this Brunson pursuit is a bit amateurish due to the connections, adding his dad to the staff, etc. - and he’s not wrong. I think Leon and Wes are realizing this isn’t as simple as handing some kid a bag full of $100 bills and sending him to Kentucky. Hopefully they have solutions that work at this level because that flukey Randle season is the only thing keeping this from dumpster fire bad.
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It's amusing Rose was brought here to recruit stars, and the only one he can reel in, maybe, is his god-son.
I know Stephen A. is a buffoon but he made the point that this Brunson pursuit is a bit amateurish due to the connections, adding his dad to the staff, etc. - and he’s not wrong. I think Leon and Wes are realizing this isn’t as simple as handing some kid a bag full of $100 bills and sending him to Kentucky. Hopefully they have solutions that work at this level because that flukey Randle season is the only thing keeping this from dumpster fire bad.
Can't stand Steven A. But he is correct, this is not going all in on KD or Lebron in his prime.
Brunson better become an All star because we are definitely treating him like a star.
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In comment 15741756 Jim in Hoboken said:
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It's amusing Rose was brought here to recruit stars, and the only one he can reel in, maybe, is his god-son.
I know Stephen A. is a buffoon but he made the point that this Brunson pursuit is a bit amateurish due to the connections, adding his dad to the staff, etc. - and he’s not wrong. I think Leon and Wes are realizing this isn’t as simple as handing some kid a bag full of $100 bills and sending him to Kentucky. Hopefully they have solutions that work at this level because that flukey Randle season is the only thing keeping this from dumpster fire bad.
Can't stand Steven A. But he is correct, this is not going all in on KD or Lebron in his prime.
Brunson better become an All star because we are definitely treating him like a star.
How are they going all in? They will still have plenty if avenues to improve even after signing brunson
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. I think Leon and Wes are realizing this isn’t as simple as handing some kid a bag full of $100 bills and sending him to Kentucky. Hopefully they have solutions that work at this level because that flukey Randle season is the only thing keeping this from dumpster fire bad.
Lol about a bag full of $100 bills
They have drafted well, kept the team flexible, the team is healthy with 1sts and 2nds..The team is a dumpster fire they have some talent on this team, it is just to cluttered right now..
They need that star
I do not even think there is any guarantee he is better than IQ, who had a better first two years in the NBA than Brunson for sure.
That said, I do think he will give the Knicks enough extra wins to make the playoffs and maybe that's worth it because nobody knows what the future holds.
The fact is that he hasn’t moved the needle at all since he came on board. And when people keep saying that he hasn’t fucked anything up or mortgaged the future, that is a really low bar.
The fact is that he hasn’t moved the needle at all since he came on board. And when people keep saying that he hasn’t fucked anything up or mortgaged the future, that is a really low bar.
True. But it’s been over 20 years since a Knicks GM managed to get over that low bar.
The fact is that he hasn’t moved the needle at all since he came on board. And when people keep saying that he hasn’t fucked anything up or mortgaged the future, that is a really low bar.
I don't really understand the shitting on this front office. Since Rose has had the reigns, which star has become available to even lure to NY? Who was there to even convince? VanVleet, who stayed with his club? Ball, who really isn't all that good? Simmons? Harden? Would you touch either of them? Only guy I can think of is DeRozen who looked like he was in a bit of a decline. And let's be honest, this board would have been complaining about his contract if he signed with us last summer.
The organization has had years upon years of awful management. Is Rose any good? Who knows, the jury is still out. But I do know that this team, as flawed as it might be today, has the most promising future since before Melo got here.
They are young. Not only do they have their own draft picks, but they have additional picks as well. They are not in cap hell. Sure there are guys we would like off the roster, but a good amount of them fall off next year.
The one move that really blew up in their faces was Randle, but if he had performed like he did two years ago, the contract would be pretty reasonable. I'm really hoping his newborn is the reason for his decline and irritability last season, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.
Either way, as a long time Knicks fan, this organization is offering the most hope since Marcus Camby's sister got kidnapped during the playoffs two decades ago. I for one, don't need a quick fix. I just want them to avoid the big mistake like past regimes, looking for a quick fix.
Gotta be more reasonable when it comes to expectations for this team.
This is pretty much a make or break season for him.
So let’s use the Knicks as an example here. Let’s say the Knicks move Burks and sign Brunson and are capped out and then extend RJ and Mitch to go over the cap. You are now in a position where you have your young star locked up and have two players locked up next to him that your are identifying as part of your core in Brunson and Robinson. Beyond them, you have Quickley, Grimes, Toppin as young players to develop. Now that group alone likely isn’t enough to contend, but you’re in the playoff conversation. The front office has put themselves in a position where they have enough assets to put together a package for the next disgruntled star that demands a trade. The Knicks can put together a package with a mix of Randle, Fournier, Rose, Reddish, any of the young guys not named RJ, and have about 7 first round picks over the next 3 years that they can use to sweeten any deal.
Even if you want to call Randle a distressed asset, there is enough there to put together a package for a Donovan Mitchell, Bradley Beal, etc to bring in and play alongside Brunson, RJ, and Robinson. Brunson has already shown that he is good enough to be the sidekick on a Western Conference finals team, and now you have him in a position where he’d arguably be the third best player behind RJ (depending on how he develops) and whoever mystery star to come is.
I do not even think there is any guarantee he is better than IQ, who had a better first two years in the NBA than Brunson for sure.
That said, I do think he will give the Knicks enough extra wins to make the playoffs and maybe that's worth it because nobody knows what the future holds.
"megabucks" haha, he would be the 15th highest paod pg in the NBA
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I also don't think he will help attract a superstar. Those guys come to play with other superstars not with a fair to middling team.
I do not even think there is any guarantee he is better than IQ, who had a better first two years in the NBA than Brunson for sure.
That said, I do think he will give the Knicks enough extra wins to make the playoffs and maybe that's worth it because nobody knows what the future holds.
"megabucks" haha, he would be the 15th highest paod pg in the NBA
I also think I saw somewhere that depending on signings and extensions this off-season, not even in the top 50 highest paid in the league. It sounds like a lot of money, but by NBA standards is reasonable.
So, in the bottom half of SGs.
You just hear the total contract value and lose rationality.
Lame jokes aside, the org as a whole seems all over place and they don't have a clearly defined plan. It appears they're trying to thread the needle between trying to rebuild and contend at the same time - but they're not smart enough to do it. And they probably overrated just how "good' the team was in 20/21.
I think the following note from Katz sums it all up nicely:
So, in the bottom half of SGs.
You just hear the total contract value and lose rationality.
I mean all you need to know is the Mid level is 10 million now..cap is just going to keep rising..
That season was very fun but i also think it hurt them. If that season doesnt happen, Randle is probably gone, Burks, Noel are not here..
Now they are scrambiling to build a team around the youth rather than the vets
That season was very fun but i also think it hurt them. If that season doesnt happen, Randle is probably gone, Burks, Noel are not here..
Now they are scrambiling to build a team around the youth rather than the vets
the league had spoken with regard to contracts on guys like Noel and Rose the last few years. They were both bouncing around the league on small contracts. You have to trust yourself to be smart enough to find the next wave of guys like that on the cheap instead of paying for role players.
On the other hand, if you're doing a traditional rebuild, you're probably picking higher in the lottery and therefore don't have to trade up for Ivey or you actually have the assets to get him if you want instead of coming up short. And you probably have the cap space to sign Brunson without having to move money.
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gave the front office a false sense of cknfidence and thought they got lucky with Randle becoming an all NBA player. They immediately thought ok we have to add scorers in the back court and bring back Rose, Burks and Noel.
That season was very fun but i also think it hurt them. If that season doesnt happen, Randle is probably gone, Burks, Noel are not here..
Now they are scrambiling to build a team around the youth rather than the vets
the league had spoken with regard to contracts on guys like Noel and Rose the last few years. They were both bouncing around the league on small contracts. You have to trust yourself to be smart enough to find the next wave of guys like that on the cheap instead of paying for role players.
On the other hand, if you're doing a traditional rebuild, you're probably picking higher in the lottery and therefore don't have to trade up for Ivey or you actually have the assets to get him if you want instead of coming up short. And you probably have the cap space to sign Brunson without having to move money.
Yeah true, i just think making the playoffs put pressure on them to add rather than let go of guys. They couldnt jist say well that was fun now we are going to let go of all thr players that helped make it happen..
They tried to add to it, it didnt work, so now they are trying to add to their youth and even if they get rid of Randle, Burks, Noel, Fournier and even Rose, i dont think they will be bad enough to tank
The issue I have is with Randle. They didn’t need to extend him when they did, there was no chance he was leaving this year if he had gone out and repeated the all nba play of 2 seasons ago. He could make more money sticking with New York, and as we are seeing with Beal and have with other guys in the past, these guys want their money first and can figure out a new home if they want one later. The only reason to extend Randle last year was because they felt they were getting him at a discount. With the way he played against Atlanta, it was foolish not to wait and see because there were huge warning signs that the All NBA level play was an outlier due to the shortened season and no fans in the arenas.
The issue I have is with Randle. They didn’t need to extend him when they did, there was no chance he was leaving this year if he had gone out and repeated the all nba play of 2 seasons ago. He could make more money sticking with New York, and as we are seeing with Beal and have with other guys in the past, these guys want their money first and can figure out a new home if they want one later. The only reason to extend Randle last year was because they felt they were getting him at a discount. With the way he played against Atlanta, it was foolish not to wait and see because there were huge warning signs that the All NBA level play was an outlier due to the shortened season and no fans in the arenas.
I have the exact opposite take. Noel and Burks specifically, those are scrap heap guys. They're not 3 year contract guys who you need to pay. Noel especially. I feel like that's a guy that Thibs pounded the table for.
The thing is, when you have cap space you can be creative with it to take on bad contracts, or facilitate trades between teams for assets. So you can just look at the FA pool from that year and say Ball or DeRozen should have been the target (they should have been).
That offseason was the most frustrating for me. I really thought they could have used it to either amass assets if you thought that the success that year was a mirage, or upgrade the roster.
Randle was coming off a career year where he looked motivated and had responded well to the coach and new regime. Even if you thought he would regress, it was hard to envision him having the worst season of his career.
To me, Free agency signings have been the biggest failing of this front office and it's not close. Hopefully they can turn it around.
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Last off-season, because I think based on the success they had the season prior it made sense to try and run it back to an extent to see if it could be repeated. Ultimately, the guy I think we would have wanted as an alternative would have been Lonzo Ball, and we probably would have had to go higher than the 4/80 that the Bulls offered to get him away from going to Chicago. Obviously it didn’t work out with those vets, and now we are going to basically turn that money into Brunson. Even if it costs 4/100 or in that area, I’d rather be paying him than Lonzo Ball.
The issue I have is with Randle. They didn’t need to extend him when they did, there was no chance he was leaving this year if he had gone out and repeated the all nba play of 2 seasons ago. He could make more money sticking with New York, and as we are seeing with Beal and have with other guys in the past, these guys want their money first and can figure out a new home if they want one later. The only reason to extend Randle last year was because they felt they were getting him at a discount. With the way he played against Atlanta, it was foolish not to wait and see because there were huge warning signs that the All NBA level play was an outlier due to the shortened season and no fans in the arenas.
I have the exact opposite take. Noel and Burks specifically, those are scrap heap guys. They're not 3 year contract guys who you need to pay. Noel especially. I feel like that's a guy that Thibs pounded the table for.
The thing is, when you have cap space you can be creative with it to take on bad contracts, or facilitate trades between teams for assets. So you can just look at the FA pool from that year and say Ball or DeRozen should have been the target (they should have been).
That offseason was the most frustrating for me. I really thought they could have used it to either amass assets if you thought that the success that year was a mirage, or upgrade the roster.
Randle was coming off a career year where he looked motivated and had responded well to the coach and new regime. Even if you thought he would regress, it was hard to envision him having the worst season of his career.
To me, Free agency signings have been the biggest failing of this front office and it's not close. Hopefully they can turn it around.
They thought they were upgrading the roster by going from Payton and Bullock to Fournier and Kemba, unfortunately neither of those moves worked out how we had hoped. Fournier showed enough last year that you could say the contract isn’t a total disaster, but Kemba obviously was.
And as stated earlier, you can’t just sit on your cap space when you have young players that are extension eligible within a year. Yeah they could have parlayed their open space last year to pick up picks for bad contracts, but where does that get you? Now you’re stuck with bad contracts and no flexibility to build around your young core other than just hoping you get lucky hitting on a late lottery pick.
Also none of those contracts are 3 year deals. All 3 of those guys are voidable after this season, they were 2 year deals with the option to be 3 if the team wanted to pick up the option.
Keels is getting some love for his defense in other descriptions I’ve seen, and I’ve gotta say … I must have been out of town for those games. Keels has a strong body, but I’m not sure he can stay in front of anyone at the next level. He didn’t really get into the ball but still gave up a ton of straight-line drives and wasn’t great at contesting shots at the end of the play either.
That said, let’s not get lost in the weeds here. He doesn’t turn 19 until August and turned in a very solid season as a starter in the ACC. He has a chance, especially if the shooting improves. Also, the Ethan Strauss Memorial Fat Is Potential In Disguise (FIPID) factor comes into play here, as Keels measured with 13.5 percent body fat at the combine.
He therefore gave two year deals to vets whom he had just the year before signed on cheap one-year deals.
As many predicted, this turned out to be a mistake. So, what a good organization does is accept that they made a mistake and have to wait out the two years. But not the Knicks. They are willing to trade draft assets to have other teams take their mistakes so they can go out and make further mistakes by signing a guy who is no more a sure thing than the Burks/Nerl/Gibson/Rose quartet.
The logic seems to be: it did not work signing 4 veteran guys for 80 million so let's go sign one supposedly rising guy for 100+ million.
In other words, they are doing the exact opposite of what they did last year, as one mistake leads to and informs the next mistake.
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Keels is built like a tank, had a reasonably good freshman year that included a high steal rate, and his biggest weakness (shooting) is the one thing that is most fixable at the NBA level. He made 31.2 percent from 3 and 69.3 percent from the line, but I wouldn’t say his shot is broken. However, he isn’t a natural distributor either; his assist-turnover ratio from his freshman season reflects that he spent some time at the point, but once he heads to the cup he’s thinking shot. Keels also isn’t a great leaper, relying a little too much on beastball around the basket, and one wonders how that will translate as a pro.
Keels is getting some love for his defense in other descriptions I’ve seen, and I’ve gotta say … I must have been out of town for those games. Keels has a strong body, but I’m not sure he can stay in front of anyone at the next level. He didn’t really get into the ball but still gave up a ton of straight-line drives and wasn’t great at contesting shots at the end of the play either.
That said, let’s not get lost in the weeds here. He doesn’t turn 19 until August and turned in a very solid season as a starter in the ACC. He has a chance, especially if the shooting improves. Also, the Ethan Strauss Memorial Fat Is Potential In Disguise (FIPID) factor comes into play here, as Keels measured with 13.5 percent body fat at the combine.
NY Post article on Keels.
Link - ( New Window )
Opinions from Krzyzewski and his minions are worth about as much as AOL trial discs from 1996.
This is pretty much a make or break season for him.
Agreed.
In fact, if I'm trading for a guy like Murray (who isn't a top tier "star") I would definitely include RJ to make it happen. A lead guard like Murray would end decades of ineptitude at the position and it would be easier to find a wing that could replace RJ.