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The Two Faces of Daniel Jones

gidiefor : Mod : 6/27/2022 9:08 am
Prior to last season I was a Daniel Jones believer. I convinced myself that this kid had all the qualities he needed to be the NY Giants QB. Then three games into last season I stopped believing. Last season was historically awful, and as I see it he was part of the reason for that. You can blame coaching, blame Gettleman, blame the Oline, blame the WRs and TEs and RBs, but at some point I looked at Daniel Jones and he just wasn't doing it for me. He looked just plain old bad out there, and he also looked foolish.

On the other hand I so badly wanted and want this kid to succeed. He is a great kid. He doesn't make excuses. He did have a small window of flashes albeit inconsistently. He acts the part. If he succeeds the Giants will succeed, and as a rabid Giants fan I want that more than anything.

But as much as I want it I cannot, right now, convince myself that he can be successful. Hence the Two Faces of Daniel Jones: Belief and Desire.

I Want It To Stop!
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Take a chill pill  
Sec 103 : 6/27/2022 9:12 am : link
and wait till September, then you can start reanalyzing again... NJoy the summer
why do you have to do anything?  
UConn4523 : 6/27/2022 9:14 am : link
just watch the games, whatever happens happens. What you want to happen and believe will happen are very literally, irrelevant.
Name a QB  
NYG22 : 6/27/2022 9:15 am : link
that can be successful with no running game, poor receiving corps, unimaginative play-calling, bad protection.
RE: Name a QB  
Alamo : 6/27/2022 9:20 am : link
In comment 15741840 NYG22 said:
Quote:
that can be successful with no running game, poor receiving corps, unimaginative play-calling, bad protection.

Been trying to think of one..But I think the one QB who can do what you asked,has not been born yet..
You don't have to tell this guy...  
Jimmy Googs : 6/27/2022 9:22 am : link


We now have a coach and GM who have worked with a high  
PatersonPlank : 6/27/2022 9:24 am : link
draft pick QB and made him successful. This gives me more confidence, since they should be able to 1)determine if Jones has what it takes to be a good NFL QB, and 2) if they think he does have "it" then work with him to make him successful (meaning technique, scheme, surrounding players, etc.)

Daboll and Schoen know a lot more about this than we do, are there every day, and have their career tied to this decision. From the "Jones point of view" this HC/GM hire was the right call. Now time will tell.
The team as a whole sucked  
Pete from Woodstock : 6/27/2022 9:26 am : link
How much worse did they look with Mike Glennon and Jake Fromm at the helm? Absolutely pathetic.... I'll give him one more chance.
Yay  
eli4life : 6/27/2022 9:29 am : link
I was really really hoping there would be a Daniel Jones thread today🙄
The only dilemma for me  
Scooter185 : 6/27/2022 9:34 am : link
Is having to watch Daniel Jones be the QB for another season.

I firmly believe the Giants will be a better team without him at QB, so every game he starts just delays that
I know Daniel Jones’  
joeinpa : 6/27/2022 9:37 am : link
Threads draw a lot of attention here, so I get why so many keep getting started

But I agree, with the sentiment, just sit backwatch the process, and trust in Schoen and Daboll to decide his future with the team.

It really doesn’t matter whether you or anyone else here believes in him.
It also doesn't matter whether you have any trust in Schoen/Daboll.  
Jimmy Googs : 6/27/2022 9:42 am : link
Not sure how a NYG fan could at this point anyway.

So in the meanwhile, post whatever opinion you want to on Daniel Jones...

Well Gidiefor, just look at the last 6 games....  
George from PA : 6/27/2022 9:47 am : link
And you come to the conclusion how badly Daniel was missed.

It's been 10 years now, but let's see how the QB does with a competent OL.

LT is vital but any QB that see a turnstile at RT plays poorly.

The good news....these guys have done a substantial job improving the OL.

Daniel Jones has a year to prove if he belongs
Welp  
M.S. : 6/27/2022 10:19 am : link

By the end of this season, we should have a real good read as to whether or not Daniel Jones will be a New York Giant in 2023.

That's the Joe Schoen / Brian Daboll plan.
RE: Name a QB  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/27/2022 10:24 am : link
In comment 15741840 NYG22 said:
Quote:
that can be successful with no running game, poor receiving corps, unimaginative play-calling, bad protection.

This is where this conversation goes off the rails every single time, and it's usually due to the binary nature of this exact set of reasoning (or excuses, depending on your POV).

It is next to impossible for a QB to succeed in the scenario you describe. In fact, it might make very many good QBs look bad.

However, a bad QB can also make that scenario happen by himself. Blocking will look worse if a QB has poor awareness pre or post snap (and horrific if the QB lacks adequate awareness both before and after the snap). WRs will look much worse than they are if their QB is bad. Play-calling will look unimaginative if a QB's flaws/weaknesses must be covered up at all times. A running game will struggle to succeed if a defense doesn't have to respect the threat of a dynamic passing game.

All of the reasons that DJ's most ardent defenders use to excuse his play to date can also be explained by DJ's level of play. It's possible (not necessarily likely, just possible) that DJ is at least in part the cause of the unfavorable scenario that surrounds him and not simply the victim of it.
I made a post about this last year, but my biggest  
Ben in Tampa : 6/27/2022 10:27 am : link
concern about Jones is that if he does become the man it would mean Dave Gettleman, John Mara, Chris Pettit, Kevin Abrams, Pat Shurmur and Joe Judge were all right about something.

I don’t think I can convince myself of that.
not only jones.....  
thrunthrublue : 6/27/2022 10:29 am : link
but how about the backup qb's? pitiful is the word to use, until they invent a more accurate and appropriate term. the new management comes out of the spring having hopefully quelled the raging flames from the dumpster fire DG left behind.....having cleansed his parking spot with workers in haz mat suits, lets all hope the 2022 team taking the field this season can look like a ny giants team should.....including blocking and tackling in their play book.
RE: I made a post about this last year, but my biggest  
gidiefor : Mod : 6/27/2022 10:30 am : link
In comment 15741881 Ben in Tampa said:
Quote:
concern about Jones is that if he does become the man it would mean Dave Gettleman, John Mara, Chris Pettit, Kevin Abrams, Pat Shurmur and Joe Judge were all right about something.

I don’t think I can convince myself of that.


Yes this is also an interesting perspective that probably won't be a popular discussion. How is Gettleman's tenure ranked if Jones goes on to become successful - lol.

If you take this view you have to ax him just for cleansing purposes.
I agree with you completely  
Biteymax22 : 6/27/2022 10:34 am : link
I want this kid to succeed in the worst way but, if I had to put money on it, I'd say we're drafting a QB to replace him ~11 months from now.

I don't think he's as bad as he's looked in the Judge/Garrett system because that was just a set up to fail, you also saw a drop off when Glennon/Fromm got into the game. Despite that, I just don't see a kid that will ever go toe to toe with a Pat Mahomes, Josh Allen, Joe Burrow, Aaron Rogers etc... in the playoffs.

He may be average one day but lets be real, you don't play this game to be average, you play to win the Super Bowl. If you don't think he can win you a ring, you move on for someone who can.
RE: Yay  
Maryland Blows : 6/27/2022 10:34 am : link
In comment 15741849 eli4life said:
Quote:
I was really really hoping there would be a Daniel Jones thread today🙄


LOL!
don't think it would do much for Gettelmans tenure  
UConn4523 : 6/27/2022 10:37 am : link
because it would prove how bad he was at putting a good team around him. Jones being solid in 2022 wouldn't absolve DG because solid in a contract year means we only got 1 year's worth of productive, cheap QB play, but in a year where we couldn't spend money because the rest of the roster was so messed up.
RE: RE: Yay  
Jimmy Googs : 6/27/2022 10:40 am : link
In comment 15741888 Maryland Blows said:
Quote:
In comment 15741849 eli4life said:


Quote:


I was really really hoping there would be a Daniel Jones thread today🙄



LOL!


Did you get a speeding ticket in Maryland, or have a bad batch of crabs to eat?

Why does Maryland blow?
So looking  
Giants : 6/27/2022 10:43 am : link
Forward to tomorrow when we can have another Deep Dive on Daniel Jones
Another day, another Daniel Jones thread  
Ira : 6/27/2022 10:45 am : link
.
RE: RE: I made a post about this last year, but my biggest  
Jimmy Googs : 6/27/2022 10:48 am : link
In comment 15741884 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 15741881 Ben in Tampa said:


Quote:


concern about Jones is that if he does become the man it would mean Dave Gettleman, John Mara, Chris Pettit, Kevin Abrams, Pat Shurmur and Joe Judge were all right about something.

I don’t think I can convince myself of that.



Yes this is also an interesting perspective that probably won't be a popular discussion. How is Gettleman's tenure ranked if Jones goes on to become successful - lol.

If you take this view you have to ax him just for cleansing purposes.


What would they be right about that is all that compelling?

That they found a guy that could play QB in the NFL but he couldn't do it very well while they were in charge?
6 months and it'll be all over  
The_Boss : 6/27/2022 11:11 am : link
We'll get there, guys...
He's our leading rusher  
gtt350 : 6/27/2022 11:55 am : link
.
RE: The only dilemma for me  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 6/27/2022 11:55 am : link
In comment 15741851 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
Is having to watch Daniel Jones be the QB for another season.

I firmly believe the Giants will be a better team without him at QB, so every game he starts just delays that


And that is pretty much what those who before Daniel Jones was injured said as they asked for Glennon to take over the job as quarterback. How did that work out?
Is it time for another cheerleader thread?  
Klaatu : 6/27/2022 12:03 pm : link
.....
RE: The only dilemma for me  
M.S. : 6/27/2022 12:05 pm : link
In comment 15741851 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
Is having to watch Daniel Jones be the QB for another season.

I firmly believe the Giants will be a better team without him at QB, so every game he starts just delays that

Are you saying that you would feel that much better if we just cut ties with Danile Jones right now and let Tyrod Taylor and/or Davis Webb start and play all 17 games in 2022?
RE: RE: The only dilemma for me  
The_Boss : 6/27/2022 12:11 pm : link
In comment 15741976 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15741851 Scooter185 said:


Quote:


Is having to watch Daniel Jones be the QB for another season.

I firmly believe the Giants will be a better team without him at QB, so every game he starts just delays that


Are you saying that you would feel that much better if we just cut ties with Danile Jones right now and let Tyrod Taylor and/or Davis Webb start and play all 17 games in 2022?


I'd have no issues with that. Lose as much as possible and get into position for a better option in next year's draft.
Belief and Desire...  
Jim in Tampa : 6/27/2022 12:20 pm : link
are the two conflicting thoughts gidiefor has about Daniel Jones. They are NOT the Two Faces of Daniel Jones.

Were you just trying to write a catchy thread title?
RE: RE: The only dilemma for me  
Scooter185 : 6/27/2022 12:20 pm : link
In comment 15741964 jeffusedtobeonwebtv said:
Quote:
In comment 15741851 Scooter185 said:


Quote:


Is having to watch Daniel Jones be the QB for another season.

I firmly believe the Giants will be a better team without him at QB, so every game he starts just delays that



And that is pretty much what those who before Daniel Jones was injured said as they asked for Glennon to take over the job as quarterback. How did that work out?


They managed to replace him with QBs even worse, being better than Glennon and Fromm doesn't mean much.


In comment 15741976 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15741851 Scooter185 said:


Quote:


Is having to watch Daniel Jones be the QB for another season.

I firmly believe the Giants will be a better team without him at QB, so every game he starts just delays that


Are you saying that you would feel that much better if we just cut ties with Danile Jones right now and let Tyrod Taylor and/or Davis Webb start and play all 17 games in 2022?


Not Webb, but TT starting? 1000% I would feel better.
I worry that any Giants QB will look bad, if we don't  
Marty in Albany : 6/27/2022 12:22 pm : link
have an NFL caliber blocker at TE. Pass/run blocking is essential even if that TE only catches one pass per game. It's the holes that sink a ship. [Inspired by the prior Titanic thread]
I thought he looked fine  
JoeyBigBlue : 6/27/2022 12:42 pm : link
Until he got hurt in Dallas in week 5. After he got injured his play took a dive. Still he was the best QB we had last season by miles. Glennon and Fromm weren’t NFL players.
RE: I worry that any Giants QB will look bad, if we don't  
Mike in NY : 6/27/2022 12:43 pm : link
In comment 15741987 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
have an NFL caliber blocker at TE. Pass/run blocking is essential even if that TE only catches one pass per game. It's the holes that sink a ship. [Inspired by the prior Titanic thread]


Dawson Knox was not much of a blocker in Buffalo. Who did Cincy or Rams have blocking at TE?
Prediction  
HomerJones45 : 6/27/2022 12:48 pm : link
Danny Dimes will look good for 4 or 5 games until DC's get a handle on the new scheme and start exploiting his flaws agaion at which point, he will fade back to being Case Keenum.
RE: Belief and Desire...  
gidiefor : Mod : 6/27/2022 12:53 pm : link
In comment 15741984 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
are the two conflicting thoughts gidiefor has about Daniel Jones. They are NOT the Two Faces of Daniel Jones.

Were you just trying to write a catchy thread title?


They are the Two Faces that I see through my Belief and my Desire
I give him a 10% shot at being the guy  
Jim in Forest Hills : 6/27/2022 1:24 pm : link
He's got the size, arm, speed to be effective. Works hard. But I think he's now screwed in the head and likely won't recover.
Hmmm...  
Klaatu : 6/27/2022 1:34 pm : link
.....
Link - ( New Window )
RE: I made a post about this last year, but my biggest  
Ivan15 : 6/27/2022 1:37 pm : link
In comment 15741881 Ben in Tampa said:
Quote:
concern about Jones is that if he does become the man it would mean Dave Gettleman, John Mara, Chris Pettit, Kevin Abrams, Pat Shurmur and Joe Judge were all right about something.

I don’t think I can convince myself of that.

Only Gettleman, Pettit, and Shurmur can claim to have been right. The rest just went along for the ride.
Giants needed a potential franchise QB from that draft. Was there a better pick?
RE: I give him a 10% shot at being the guy  
The_Boss : 6/27/2022 1:42 pm : link
In comment 15742023 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
He's got the size, arm, speed to be effective. Works hard. But I think he's now screwed in the head and likely won't recover.


Jones was never a good player. Not in high school (as evident with his total lack of scholarship offers despite possessing the prototypical size and good enough arm), his failure to garner any sort of accolades in college, and his current standing (solid bottom tier) among his positional peers. His best football achievement likely was fooling a buffoon of an NFL GM into drafting him 6th overall.
...  
christian : 6/27/2022 1:44 pm : link
Managing a football team is about building an operation on and off the field that can win games.

If a new guy comes in, hires a new staff, replaces a bunch of players, and handful of the incumbents improve -- that's the new guy's success.

If I got fired today, and a new person salvaged my departments, I'm not getting the performance bonus.
I’m in the BBI minority  
Joe Beckwith : 6/27/2022 1:45 pm : link
of believers in DJ, and I think he can thrive well in the Kafka-Daboll schemes and with a more reliable OL.
I’ll believe until his disproves my faith in him.
The only thing that gives me even a smidge of hope  
Bleedblue10 : 6/27/2022 2:23 pm : link
Is how bad we looked without him. They looked like a pop Warner team without him so maybe he isn’t as bad as we think. I think we find out this year
RE: RE: I made a post about this last year, but my biggest  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/27/2022 2:27 pm : link
In comment 15742036 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15741881 Ben in Tampa said:


Quote:


concern about Jones is that if he does become the man it would mean Dave Gettleman, John Mara, Chris Pettit, Kevin Abrams, Pat Shurmur and Joe Judge were all right about something.

I don’t think I can convince myself of that.


Only Gettleman, Pettit, and Shurmur can claim to have been right. The rest just went along for the ride.
Giants needed a potential franchise QB from that draft. Was there a better pick?

No, they did not need a potential franchise QB FROM THAT DRAFT.

They needed a potential franchise QB, but could have taken one the year prior or the year following if they so chose. They could have maneuvered around the 2017 draft if they saw their guy in that draft.

Deciding that 2019 was the year that they needed to draft a QB and that it could only be 2019 is illogical, especially when they had already allowed Eli's roster bonus for 2019 to vest.

If the Giants truly did lock in on 2019 as the year they had to draft a potential franchise QB, to the complete and total exclusion of the years (and QB draft classes) that preceded or followed, it makes the entire process of drafting DJ an even bigger blunder, and would require a really naive fan to accept it.

Was that what you meant to suggest?
The reality is  
darren in pdx : 6/27/2022 2:37 pm : link
he is a middling QB in the league. I don't think he's bad as many claim, but also, I don't see him as the guy. Interested to see what this staff can get out of him, but I think they are going to target a QB in the next draft unless he has a miracle season, which I don't see as possible with an overly injured and untalented offense.
DJ had 800 yards/2 TDs/0 INT, 160 rushing/2 TDs, a 94.6 passer rating,  
kelsto811 : 6/27/2022 2:51 pm : link
was sacked 8 times, and there were 8 official drops recorded after the 1st 3 games last season. The rushing numbers provided by Saquon Barkley during that stretch were as follows:

Game 1 - 10 car / 26 yards / 0 TDs / 2.6 YPC / 1.2 YBC/ATT
Game 2 - 13 car / 57 yards / 0 TDs / 4.3 YPC / 1.8 YBC/ATT
Game 3 - 16 car / 51 yards / 1 TDs / 3.1 YPC / 1.7 YBC/ATT

= 39 car / 134 yards / 1 TDs / 3.4 YPC / 1.56 YBC/ATT

Someone should go and take a look at the Giants overall rushing statistics provided by RBs during Daniel Jones tenure, because I'm willing to bet it's horrible. I feel a lot of people have ignored or underestimated how important a running game is in keeping a defense honest and the subsequent success of a QB. Add the fact the OL had struggled up until last season and DJ's already has had to learn 2 new offenses in 3 years (and another new one coming), and you get a recipe for "who tf knows" when evaluating Daniel Jones.

I think this has to be the final evaluation year but I am willing to start fresh and evaluate DJ based on this 1 season, good or bad. It sucks he has to learn a new offense again (especially since there was a noticeable improvement in a number of areas in yr 2 of Garret's offense last season, you could tell he was doing much less thinking and much more relying purely on his talent), but that's just how it has to be.

I am still holding on to some hope that he can be the Giants QB of the future. I like the fact that Daboll/Kafka are the ones he is learning under because they have a unique way they teach their QBs to handle progressions, and it was a massive success for Josh Allen. Fingers crossed.
RE: You don't have to tell this guy...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/27/2022 7:07 pm : link
In comment 15741843 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:



'You thought DJ could be a decent QB in an indecent league. But you were wrong.'
RE: RE: You don't have to tell this guy...  
Jimmy Googs : 6/27/2022 7:36 pm : link
In comment 15742282 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
In comment 15741843 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:







'You thought DJ could be a decent QB in an indecent league. But you were wrong.'


well done SFG...
Gidie ...  
Route 9 : 6/27/2022 8:10 pm : link
Honestly ...


What in the fucking hell are you talking about?
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