For argument's sake -- say Jones takes a big step up and has a season similar to Carson Wentz did last year. 9-8, 3500 yards, 27/7, 6.9 Y/A.
I've got to be missing someone, but I can't think of a QB who didn't get his 5th year picked up, that then signed a big deal.
On one hand it's one year, on the other he'd be an UFA coming off a solid year.
the stats and results absolutely matter. There's a step and then there's a STEP.
5 year deal. 25, 30, 40, 40, 40
Possible out after year 2.
50 guaranteed.
Else Franchise Tag.
I am rooting for him. We will see.
If Jones had 3500, 27/10 year and the Giants went 9-8, I think they'd start with an offer in the 4/110M range, which would put him at the bottom end of veteran starters. And knowing full well they can tag him.
That's where I think it's interesting what Team Jones would counter.
To sign a multi year offer off a good season, I think Team Jones would be in the 4/140 range and be happy to angle for the tag.
I think there's no chance in heck Jones leads a winning team and is in/near top 10 in TDs and doesn't get 30M AAV in 2023.
I would cling to the fact that the option wasn't picked up and explain away his words as just coach-speak and the lack of interest in the QB market as a more a reflection of the market than his opinion on Jones. I would be disappointed that he didn't like any of the QBs in the draft, especially when some intriguing choices were available into the 3rd round, but I would applaud his patience and restraint in what I considered to be a multi-year rebuild. And, of course, I would understand his need to placate the doddering old fool that pays his salary. That's if I had your opinion of Jones, Mara, and the state of the Giants roster.
But I don't have your opinion and yet somehow, go figure, when I look at the tea leaves--along with Schoen's words and actions--they back up my opinion across the board. Given my opinion of Jones, Mara, and the Giants roster: I would've weighed the pro's and con's and ultimately decided not to pick up Jones's option (if for no other reason than his injury history); I wouldn't've pursued any of the pricy options in free agency or the trade market; and I would've emphasized offense (especially OL, WR, and TE) in the draft.
Basically I would've handled things exactly as Schoen did and yet I think it's a lot closer to 50-50 that Jones is the answer than you do (although his injury history surely complicates it) and I don't view Mara as blindly loyal to Jones. Nobody wants the Giants to win more than John Mara. Nobody. He isn't gonna let ego get in the way of forming an objective opinion and his objective opinion will be based on a helluva lot more information than either you or I. As for the talent on the roster, I definitely believe in it a lot more than you it seems, they just need to stay healthy and hopefully well-coached.
We can agree on the fact that "it's squarely on Jones to earn another contract" but I don't see that requiring a "significant reversal on the football field" (unless by that you simply mean the team's W-L record). Jones needs to improve his consistency, things need to slow down for him in the pocket, and he needs to stay healthy. There's a lot of good, young potential on the Giants and that includes Jones and Barkley. If they're as lucky as they've been unlucky with injuries, they could still be playing football on Andrew Thomas's 24th birthday!
Agree to disagree.
If Jones had 3500, 27/10 year and the Giants went 9-8, I think they'd start with an offer in the 4/110M range, which would put him at the bottom end of veteran starters. And knowing full well they can tag him.
That's where I think it's interesting what Team Jones would counter.
To sign a multi year offer off a good season, I think Team Jones would be in the 4/140 range and be happy to angle for the tag.
I think there's no chance in heck Jones leads a winning team and is in/near top 10 in TDs and doesn't get 30M AAV in 2023.
Agree to disagree.
p.s.--Two of my most pessimistic years were 2007 and 2011.
IGNORE the words.
His job is to deceive with his words.
Focus on what he does.
If Jones had 3500, 27/10 year and the Giants went 9-8, I think they'd start with an offer in the 4/110M range, which would put him at the bottom end of veteran starters. And knowing full well they can tag him.
That's where I think it's interesting what Team Jones would counter.
To sign a multi year offer off a good season, I think Team Jones would be in the 4/140 range and be happy to angle for the tag.
I think there's no chance in heck Jones leads a winning team and is in/near top 10 in TDs and doesn't get 30M AAV in 2023.
That would be incredibly stupid. That would put Jones in the lower middle class of QBs. Why would you pay a lot of money, $35M per, for a guy like that?
Ultimately the Giants control the situation because they can franchise him.
Personally, I think an average to good year is arguably the worst outcome for the Giants. I think parking 30M on a prove it deal is a tough outcome. And I think the year I'm describing gets him tagged.
I think there's no chance in hell Jones takes a deal that pays him less than other starters on a 2nd + contract.
I think there's no chance in hell Jones takes a deal that pays him less than other starters on a 2nd + contract.
I'd take that bet.
If Jones does well in 2022 I suggest some of you make peace with him being here for a few more years. The Giants won't dump the guy after finally seeing some success in his 4th season.
Depends on how well he does. The Giants won't want to waste money on anyone let alone a whopper QB contract. They will do what's best for the franchise.
Baker is the most overrated QB in the NFL or at least was in the eyes of many fans. The jig is up. There's a reason why the Browns wanted Watson even if that was a misguided move.
MAyfield is a JAG. He didn't help one of the most talented teams in the NFL go anywhere other than one playoff win. He's not very cerebral if at all. Isn't as athletic as we expected him to be coming out of college and isn't a prolific passer on his best day. He will start for one more team, fail to do anything of note and be a backup by 2025. Just Watch.
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No offense intended here, but I can't recall the last thing you were optimistic about that came to fruition, especially during the past 2-3 years.
Agree to disagree.
I was optimistic about Andrew Thomas. And it had been awhile since the Giants took the guy I wanted with their first pick since Eli. I liked Shockey and JPP a lot, too, but can't recall if they were my number 1 target.
p.s.--Two of my most pessimistic years were 2007 and 2011.
Then would you mind trying to be more pessimistic please since it seems to work.
How many years do we have to put up with posts that are wrong AND losing seasons...
:-)
Ultimately the Giants control the situation because they can franchise him.
Personally, I think an average to good year is arguably the worst outcome for the Giants. I think parking 30M on a prove it deal is a tough outcome. And I think the year I'm describing gets him tagged.
I think there's no chance in hell Jones takes a deal that pays him less than other starters on a 2nd + contract.
If he enters free agency and gets a decent deal doesn't that help NYG from a comp pick formula perspective? If so, then a good year and no deal from us is still helpful...
There is a new sheriff in town and he isn't the moron Dave Gettleman was.
I think...
He needs an OL before either of those regardless
QB hell will be giving today's insane prices for a guy who is merely adequate, and delivering a .529 season that puts us well out of range of the top draft QB.
That kind of season, where DJ is OK, but not leaning toward awesome, will make for a miserable situation. If he's leaning toward good, maybe a tag is sensible, as it gives him another year to improve/run the show, while we draft/acquire anyone within reach.
a couple of factors:
is there a FA QB in reach?
is DJ showing he has all the tools, or is he achieving decent stats because Daboll is scheming around a limited tool set? Even if the stats don't look good, Management will know by season's end how many tools he has.
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no source really required, read the tea leaves.
The funny thing about tea leaves is they have a tendency to tell you only what you want to hear. You ignore Schoen's words and instead attach to his actions a narrative that allows for his view of Jones to be roughly the equivalent of yours. If I had your view of Jones, maybe I'd be inclined to do the same.
I would cling to the fact that the option wasn't picked up and explain away his words as just coach-speak and the lack of interest in the QB market as a more a reflection of the market than his opinion on Jones. I would be disappointed that he didn't like any of the QBs in the draft, especially when some intriguing choices were available into the 3rd round, but I would applaud his patience and restraint in what I considered to be a multi-year rebuild. And, of course, I would understand his need to placate the doddering old fool that pays his salary. That's if I had your opinion of Jones, Mara, and the state of the Giants roster.
But I don't have your opinion and yet somehow, go figure, when I look at the tea leaves--along with Schoen's words and actions--they back up my opinion across the board. Given my opinion of Jones, Mara, and the Giants roster: I would've weighed the pro's and con's and ultimately decided not to pick up Jones's option (if for no other reason than his injury history); I wouldn't've pursued any of the pricy options in free agency or the trade market; and I would've emphasized offense (especially OL, WR, and TE) in the draft.
Basically I would've handled things exactly as Schoen did and yet I think it's a lot closer to 50-50 that Jones is the answer than you do (although his injury history surely complicates it) and I don't view Mara as blindly loyal to Jones. Nobody wants the Giants to win more than John Mara. Nobody. He isn't gonna let ego get in the way of forming an objective opinion and his objective opinion will be based on a helluva lot more information than either you or I. As for the talent on the roster, I definitely believe in it a lot more than you it seems, they just need to stay healthy and hopefully well-coached.
We can agree on the fact that "it's squarely on Jones to earn another contract" but I don't see that requiring a "significant reversal on the football field" (unless by that you simply mean the team's W-L record). Jones needs to improve his consistency, things need to slow down for him in the pocket, and he needs to stay healthy. There's a lot of good, young potential on the Giants and that includes Jones and Barkley. If they're as lucky as they've been unlucky with injuries, they could still be playing football on Andrew Thomas's 24th birthday!
Bravo Milton
If he does well, I expect him to request a reasonable contract also.
I think a number of BBIers will be surprised reasonable for a starting QB will be squarely in the 30M+ a year range.
Here is the thing: Jones isn't elite 8 and if we are drafting say 20th or so we likely aren't going to grab an elite 8 potentialed QB either.
You tag him to make sure he isn't a one year wonder and eat the cap hit meaning you can't buy any UFA and maybe even let guys like Galloday go. Hard to say.
Or if he has a good year see if you can tag and trade for a #1 or something? Crazy scenarios can exist though much less likely. I think he does really well and unless the Giants have someone else in mind he gets tagged.
Now if he is average and hurt a bit again he is gone for sure. That is a given.
Not a lot of facts in this post.
The rest is just likely possibilities. Chances are this is it for Jones. He is what he is —a QB that is very limited and never developed. I find kind of odd that so many are invested emotionally in a outcome that is probably not going to happen. Why not invest in an unlikely outcome in yourself achieving wild, low probability success instead? You can’t admit you were wrong about Jones not being a star when you predicted as such two years ago
The rest is just likely possibilities. Chances are this is it for Jones. He is what he is —a QB that is very limited and never developed. I find kind of odd that so many are invested emotionally in a outcome that is probably not going to happen. Why not invest in an unlikely outcome in yourself achieving wild, low probability success instead? You can’t admit you were wrong about Jones not being a star when you predicted as such two years ago
Who are you talking about? 95% of us are ready to move on from Jones but with the right plan instead of just doing it randomly. No one has predicted him a star from two years ago (which is odd since you weren’t even registered here two years ago).
You just label people who have a different opinion than you. And make up stuff as you go. You should probably stop doing that.
Maybe not the 9-8 and playoffs part but the jones being like Phil Simms and Eli manning not being good till 2007 post season are very much pretty high occurring posts here
Yea I was not around and speculating about why so many are dug in on D Jones. It has to be just what I’d described or just dreamers dreaming same with jake Fromm. Who knows this strange tendency in people. I don’t have this so I don’t know
And congrats your debaser post alert is working like a charm
Maybe not the 9-8 and playoffs part but the jones being like Phil Simms and Eli manning not being good till 2007 post season are very much pretty high occurring posts here
Yea I was not around and speculating about why so many are dug in on D Jones. It has to be just what I’d described or just dreamers dreaming same with jake Fromm. Who knows this strange tendency in people. I don’t have this so I don’t know
And congrats your debaser post alert is working like a charm
My Debaser alert? You’re making up lies about me and other posters without facts. I am more than happy to talk football with you or anyone else but you clearly don’t. How do I report you for breaking the code of conduct since you have experience in doing so?
Your continue attacks on posters isn’t good for the board.
And what’s wrong with that? Are you saying you don’t want them to succeed? Seems like a really odd take.
If neither of them do anything worth while - like I said 95% of the posters are ready to move on. Doesn’t mean we can’t root for them?
Just a weird take.
I don’t know about that. But I will say I don’t like either of them and can’t wait for them to be in another team.
While your outcome would be a surprise , I think more realistically is this team achieving N success with those 2 on it. They’re bottom tier players who were never really good.
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There’s posters here who would be genuinely upset if Jones was the league MVP or if Barkley went for over 2,000 yards and 20 TDs.
I don’t know about that. But I will say I don’t like either of them and can’t wait for them to be in another team.
Even if they have big years and we make the playoffs? Just an odd take.
I hope Jones and Barkley dominate the NFL this year and if they don’t, there’s no reason to keep either. I mean I think that’s a reasonable take… but some would still want them gone if they played Extremely well.
Just weird.
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In comment 15747065 GNewGiants said:
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There’s posters here who would be genuinely upset if Jones was the league MVP or if Barkley went for over 2,000 yards and 20 TDs.
I don’t know about that. But I will say I don’t like either of them and can’t wait for them to be in another team.
Even if they have big years and we make the playoffs? Just an odd take.
I hope Jones and Barkley dominate the NFL this year and if they don’t, there’s no reason to keep either. I mean I think that’s a reasonable take… but some would still want them gone if they played Extremely well.
Just weird.
Even if they play well, is it worth the risk of 2nd contracts and the $ commitment based on 1 year?
I want the giants to get better, and imo they will be much better off talentwise and financially with DJ and SB gone.
I mean maybe Joey Gallo turns into Babe Ruth in the next month, but the best outcome for the yankees is that he's no loner on the team come 8/1. That's how I feel about DJ as well
What one seasons showed was a little more talent and good coaching - Jones can be very good. Why not want to keep that?
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Plenty of us hope Jones succeeds this season and shows he is the guy. Same with Barkley
And what’s wrong with that? Are you saying you don’t want them to succeed? Seems like a really odd take.
If neither of them do anything worth while - like I said 95% of the posters are ready to move on. Doesn’t mean we can’t root for them?
Just a weird take.
Your comprehension skills need work. You said 95% want Jones gone, which means 95% dont want him to succeed - because if he succeeds he wont be gone. I said that isnt true, that plenty here hope he earns a new contract
How can you want him gone AND hope he succeeds?
What one seasons showed was a little more talent and good coaching - Jones can be very good. Why not want to keep that?
And what happens if that turns out to be a career year and he never puts up close to those numbers again? I'd put high odds on that, since he's never been that good in the last what, 6 years between college and NFL.
Not that I expect Jones to sniff those numbers anyway
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In comment 15747052 Snablats said:
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Plenty of us hope Jones succeeds this season and shows he is the guy. Same with Barkley
And what’s wrong with that? Are you saying you don’t want them to succeed? Seems like a really odd take.
If neither of them do anything worth while - like I said 95% of the posters are ready to move on. Doesn’t mean we can’t root for them?
Just a weird take.
Your comprehension skills need work. You said 95% want Jones gone, which means 95% dont want him to succeed - because if he succeeds he wont be gone. I said that isnt true, that plenty here hope he earns a new contract
How can you want him gone AND hope he succeeds?
My reading comprehension skills? Lol. Your self awareness on threads is comical at this point.
You don’t think the majority of us want him to succeed yet realize he probably won’t? Jones is the QB this year - so I hope he is the MVP this year. But also realize he probably won’t and want an upgrade when one is worthy. There wasn’t one this year so why not hope for the best and move on if it doesn’t happen?
My reading comprehension - haha - too comical.
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Goes for over 4,000 combined yards and a total 30 TDs…. You wouldn’t give him another contract? That’s insane. You absolutely have to. Now a 40-45 million contract? Maybe not. But definitely over 30.
What one seasons showed was a little more talent and good coaching - Jones can be very good. Why not want to keep that?
And what happens if that turns out to be a career year and he never puts up close to those numbers again? I'd put high odds on that, since he's never been that good in the last what, 6 years between college and NFL.
Not that I expect Jones to sniff those numbers anyway
Well that’s what Schoen and Daboll have to evaluate after the year. Maybe they think he can even be better with an upgrade more of the roster.
Trust me I don’t expect those numbers either. I’m just saying if he puts up those types of numbers - he’s gonna get paid. Replacing him with an unknown is a huge risk.
Go Terps said it would be a disaster if Jones had a good year and the Giants went 9-8 or 10-7.
People want Both gone no matter what. The mass majority here wanted him gone before the draft. I want him gone after the year but hope he dominates and proves me wrong. It’s very easy to understand wanting a new QB yet pulling for him to have a huge year.
Being "ready to move on from Jones" means you dont want him here after this season. So you are rooting for him to succeed, but still dont want the Giants to sign him?
If he succeeds, wouldnt you want to keep him?
I want both Barkley and Jones to shine so brightly That there is no way the Giants can say no.
I also want both of them to sign for 25% under what the perceived value would be to the team... You know since we're wishing and guessing.
Being "ready to move on from Jones" means you dont want him here after this season. So you are rooting for him to succeed, but still dont want the Giants to sign him?
If he succeeds, wouldnt you want to keep him?
If the Giants had traded for a Wilson or a Rodgers or a QB like that - I would have been fine because it was an instant upgrades. I didn’t like anyone in the draft so once they weren’t trading for one - I want Jones to do well. Many giants fans here wanted Jones gone no matter what, successful or not.
If Jones has a massive year it would mean he has proven me wrong. And that would be great. Do I expect him to have a massive year? No. But it doesn’t mean I am not rooting for him. And if he put up huge numbers - I would admit he deserves it.
This isn’t hard to understand. You’re getting dizzy with simple concepts again.