Over the next 7 years, they had 11 firsts and 11 seconds. Now 11 and 9.
It will also be interesting to see if Seals and Montero can play--they have some fans.
Post: Brunson to Knicks momentum is growing.
"Momentum appears to be building. With the free-agency period nearing, the Knicks seem to be in great shape to land top target Jalen Brunson of the Mavericks.
Multiple reports emerged Tuesday claiming that Brunson signing with the Knicks is inevitable, that the Mavericks have become resigned to the notion of losing the valuable guard. Mavericks beat writer Tim Cato of The Athletic tweeted it is “seen as a certainty.” It is believed the Knicks are ready to offer the 6-foot-1 Brunson a four-year deal in excess of $100 million to fill their cavernous hole at point guard.
“I think he would come to the Knicks if that’s the case,” said a source close to Brunson, who has known him since college. “It would be tough to turn down.”"
2024 second round draft pick from Miami
Miami's 2024 2nd round pick to Atlanta protected for selections 31-50 and 56-60 or to New York (via Cleveland to Detroit to Philadelphia) protected for selections 31-55 (Miami's obligation(s) to Atlanta and/or New York will thereafter be extinguished) [Cleveland-Miami, 2/8/2018; Atlanta-Miami, 6/19/2019; Cleveland-Detroit, 6/26/2019; Detroit-Philadelphia, 7/7/2019; New York-Oklahoma City-Philadelphia, 3/25/2021]
keep up with John Hollinger's tweet?Knicks could operate over the cap and retain a full non-taxpayer MLE if they tie this into Kemba's trade which isn't official yet?
keep up with John Hollinger's tweet?Knicks could operate over the cap and retain a full non-taxpayer MLE if they tie this into Kemba's trade which isn't official yet?
He is basically saying make this one big trade with Brunson coming to the Knicks and then Knicks have 10 million mid level because they never technically go under the cap..
Problem with that is Knicks just opened 38 million they arent planning to stay over the cap
I only hope Brunson is a done deal. If that actually happens, the next step is the key. Trade Randle at all costs
Chris Haynes
@ChrisBHaynes
When free agency opens on Thursday, the New York Knicks are expected to present Jalen Brunson a four-year offer in the vicinity of $110 million, league sources tell @YahooSports.
Thibs needs to find a way for both he and Obi to play 30 min a night and about 12 of those where they are on the court at the same time until Randle builds up his trade value.
Our bench needs to be dominate again with Obi, Quick, Rose, Grimes, Reddish, Sims etc. Brunson is a middle of the pack starting pG. (Need a solution for Fournier), RJB, Randle (bounce back??) and Mitch. They need to be a +/- 0 at least for the year. Seems like we still have too many bodies. (Didn’t throw the old man, McBride or Dukie draft pick in there yet.
The Knicks are including two future second-round picks and cash in the deal to incentivize the Pistons, sources tell ESPN.
So much for all of the people insisting we’d have to attach a first to each of them to shed those salaries.
I was wrong about this- thought it would cost more to move Noel. I’ll miss Burks but this is the cost of doing business. Solid trade here.
What’s the word on Robinson coming back? What’s next?
I also don’t really understand the complaints about Brunson. The reported offers seem fair to me but I’m a huge fan of his. Dallas was also insane not to agree to that 4/55 extension.
Not bad cost to clear up space. And there's chatter that the Brunson
deal could be descending in value, which is pretty great for the Knicks as the cap increases. Whole league basically crossing Brunson off the list of available FA.
Contract or not, I feel pretty confident that he'll be the best PG the Knicks have had since Mark Jackson.
The Knicks are including two future second-round picks and cash in the deal to incentivize the Pistons, sources tell ESPN.
So much for all of the people insisting we’d have to attach a first to each of them to shed those salaries.
I was wrong about this- thought it would cost more to move Noel. I’ll miss Burks but this is the cost of doing business. Solid trade here.
What’s the word on Robinson coming back? What’s next?
I also don’t really understand the complaints about Brunson. The reported offers seem fair to me but I’m a huge fan of his. Dallas was also insane not to agree to that 4/55 extension.
According to Fischer Mitch is exoected back 4 years 60 million, my guess there are jnlikely incentives in there that makes the value look more than it is
I don’t see Brunson as a true point. More of a scoring guard. With Randle and Barrett on the team, they will be more of your primary ball handlers and Brunson will play off of them much like he did with Luka.
And what do you do with Quick off the bench? Another player who needs the ball to be effective.
I don’t see Brunson as a true point. More of a scoring guard. With Randle and Barrett on the team, they will be more of your primary ball handlers and Brunson will play off of them much like he did with Luka.
And what do you do with Quick off the bench? Another player who needs the ball to be effective.
So a more expensive Payton and Burks? That would be fuckin horrible.
They're not paying Brunson 100mill to play off ball
He plays off ball in DAL because he plays with one of the top 5 players in the league who absolutely should start every possession with the ball. Not so, here in NY. He'll be the true PG here and he's outstanding as the PnR ball handler.
Paying Brunson a higher salary year 1 since we have extra cap space (assuming we are not making another move). Obviously that is out of the window if we are planning to make more moves here.
Fournier should be coming off the bench for some instant offense. Put Grimes as the starter and see how he fairs
The Wiz paying Bradley Beal $50 million a year for the next 5
He plays off ball in DAL because he plays with one of the top 5 players in the league who absolutely should start every possession with the ball. Not so, here in NY. He'll be the true PG here and he's outstanding as the PnR ball handler.
Not sure about that. Barrett is still the better player. I think he’s gonna be more of your lead guard.
RE: The Wiz paying Bradley Beal $50 million a year for the next 5
I don't give a fuck who handles the ball. All I care about is that the ball moves and not just that stupid weave they do outside the 3 point line every possession. Move the ball and make the defense work. Find the hot player. You know, basic basketball shit. There is a reason the 2nd unit was much more fun to watch and much more effective than the starters last year. Randle gets assists but he also dribbles like 7+ times or holds the ball for too long. He gets assists because he gets doubled. That doesn't mean he is a good passer. His turnovers and slowing down of the offense are 2 reasons why we get frustrated with him. The attitude was the third. I hope the rumors are true that Randle's role will be decreasing. I hope he learns from this. We are still a better team when he is in his A game. The problem is that it was almost non-existent last season. It isn't Randle's fault that Thibs glued Obi's ass to the bench last year.
The Knicks two biggest obstacles this year are seeing if two old dogs can learn new tricks between Randle changing his game to be more team friendly and Thibs changing his coaching style to fit this team. Barley playing Obi and Randle last year together was just ridiculously narrow minded.
RE: The Wiz paying Bradley Beal $50 million a year for the next 5
seasons...insanity to me. Is Beal even a second option on a title contender?
Washington should have just traded him when they had the chance. The team has been irrelevant with Beal there for years, now you’re going to pay him $50 mil to continue being irrelevant? What is their path to getting better?
They would have been better off trading Beal for a young player and a boatload of picks, you’re probably not making the playoffs either way but at least you’re rebuilding and not paying 1 guy more than 1/3 of your cap.
RE: RE: The Wiz paying Bradley Beal $50 million a year for the next 5
seasons...insanity to me. Is Beal even a second option on a title contender?
Washington should have just traded him when they had the chance. The team has been irrelevant with Beal there for years, now you’re going to pay him $50 mil to continue being irrelevant? What is their path to getting better?
They would have been better off trading Beal for a young player and a boatload of picks, you’re probably not making the playoffs either way but at least you’re rebuilding and not paying 1 guy more than 1/3 of your cap.
I don't know the full details but I remember him not wanting to leave. Did he have a no trade clause?
RE: RE: They're not paying Brunson 100mill to play off ball
He plays off ball in DAL because he plays with one of the top 5 players in the league who absolutely should start every possession with the ball. Not so, here in NY. He'll be the true PG here and he's outstanding as the PnR ball handler.
Not sure about that. Barrett is still the better player. I think he’s gonna be more of your lead guard.
Am I reading this right? You think Barrett is better than Brunson?
RE: RE: RE: They're not paying Brunson 100mill to play off ball
He plays off ball in DAL because he plays with one of the top 5 players in the league who absolutely should start every possession with the ball. Not so, here in NY. He'll be the true PG here and he's outstanding as the PnR ball handler.
Not sure about that. Barrett is still the better player. I think he’s gonna be more of your lead guard.
Am I reading this right? You think Barrett is better than Brunson?
Yes. Barrett is better by a good margin too.
RE: RE: RE: RE: They're not paying Brunson 100mill to play off ball
He plays off ball in DAL because he plays with one of the top 5 players in the league who absolutely should start every possession with the ball. Not so, here in NY. He'll be the true PG here and he's outstanding as the PnR ball handler.
Not sure about that. Barrett is still the better player. I think he’s gonna be more of your lead guard.
Am I reading this right? You think Barrett is better than Brunson?
Yes. Barrett is better by a good margin too.
I love RJ but the gap between them in terms of efficiency is as wide as the Hudson.
was talked about on "Get Up" this morning. The consensus seemed to be that the Knicks were going to greatly overpay for Brunson by giving him $100M. I tend to agree. They seem to be desperate, especially for a PG. More proof of that was their desperate desire to try and get Ivey.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
RE: RE: The Wiz paying Bradley Beal $50 million a year for the next 5
seasons...insanity to me. Is Beal even a second option on a title contender?
Washington should have just traded him when they had the chance. The team has been irrelevant with Beal there for years, now you’re going to pay him $50 mil to continue being irrelevant? What is their path to getting better?
They would have been better off trading Beal for a young player and a boatload of picks, you’re probably not making the playoffs either way but at least you’re rebuilding and not paying 1 guy more than 1/3 of your cap.
was talked about on "Get Up" this morning. The consensus seemed to be that the Knicks were going to greatly overpay for Brunson by giving him $100M. I tend to agree. They seem to be desperate, especially for a PG. More proof of that was their desperate desire to try and get Ivey.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
How is it an overpay? he is going to be the 14th highest paid PG, how is that an overpay?
and why is it only Brunson, Rj and Obi?
Knicks have drafted well under Leon Rose and Walt Perrin
It is a lot if $, but the $ being thrown around is just insane. We live in a world where Tobias Harris is going to make $37 million this coming season.
RE: Good start to the offseason with Burks, Noel, and Walker all gone
was talked about on "Get Up" this morning. The consensus seemed to be that the Knicks were going to greatly overpay for Brunson by giving him $100M. I tend to agree. They seem to be desperate, especially for a PG. More proof of that was their desperate desire to try and get Ivey.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
Don't watch Get Up looking for astute basketball analysis.
First, no one got clowned when Fred VanVleet got 21+Million a year. Now the Knicks are getting clowned for signing the best FA on the market for 5M more per year? And you could make a solid argument that Brunson is better than FVV anyway.
Second, how far does it take them? Not sure, but giving Brunson that money is definitely better than giving it to Kemba, Burks and Noel. That's really all that matters. When the Knicks sign Brunson he'll be paid like the 15th highest paid PG in the league, improve the team and the Knicks will still have every valuable asset they have to try and get a star to come to NY. They'll have made the team more competitive but still not a contender. Rose is clearly confident that one of these big stars will shake loose and we will be ready to try and land him.
Is not better than Brunson and it’s not even really close.
I really don’t see how this is an overpay for Brunson.
- he can be a lead guard or play off ball easily.
-he’s 25 and has gotten better every year in the league.
- he’s a good shooter and defender.
- he has won everywhere he’s played.
Fans and media are obsessed with contracts. I would love great players on bargain deals too but it doesn’t work like that. And when you get a free agent you typically have to overpay the current team.
I would bet he contends for an all star spot this year in the East.
RE: They're not paying Brunson 100mill to play off ball
He plays off ball in DAL because he plays with one of the top 5 players in the league who absolutely should start every possession with the ball. Not so, here in NY. He'll be the true PG here and he's outstanding as the PnR ball handler.
Totally agree. One of the major bonuses to Brunson is it takes the ball the hell out of Randle's hands, thank god.
Not going into that argument. But if that’s how you feel and a max is on the horizon then RJB needs to go. (I’m not saying I agree) but if you are maxing a player the Knicks better make sure it’s the right player. Or…. Eat another mistake an include him in a deal for a true max. You can only have a couple of max players (if you don’t draft well or if they are not willing to take a hair cut) so you better make sure they are true max players.
was talked about on "Get Up" this morning. The consensus seemed to be that the Knicks were going to greatly overpay for Brunson by giving him $100M. I tend to agree. They seem to be desperate, especially for a PG. More proof of that was their desperate desire to try and get Ivey.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
How is it an overpay? he is going to be the 14th highest paid PG, how is that an overpay?
and why is it only Brunson, Rj and Obi?
Knicks have drafted well under Leon Rose and Walt Perrin
In January the Mavericks could have apparently resigned Brunson for 4/55. Now it's $100M. I know he played well in the playoffs, but that's quite an increase in a very short period of time. The price increase is also affected by the fact that the Knicks are desperate for a PG.
defer to others who know more. It just seems like a giant increase to me in a very short period of time. Hopefully, it works out, and maybe it will if it increases the chance that another good FA signs this year or next.
Brunson is in the middle of the pack for PG. (I know behind Luka and the stats). Let’s just hope he moves into the top 10. Now stat guys is there ever been a team to start (Brunson, RJB, Randle) three left handed players?
Would have to be a sign and trade and I know it was discussed a while back prior to the nets. Not sure if any promises were made by either side with Mitch. Do you? And was it lately?
was talked about on "Get Up" this morning. The consensus seemed to be that the Knicks were going to greatly overpay for Brunson by giving him $100M. I tend to agree. They seem to be desperate, especially for a PG. More proof of that was their desperate desire to try and get Ivey.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
How is it an overpay? he is going to be the 14th highest paid PG, how is that an overpay?
and why is it only Brunson, Rj and Obi?
Knicks have drafted well under Leon Rose and Walt Perrin
In January the Mavericks could have apparently resigned Brunson for 4/55. Now it's $100M. I know he played well in the playoffs, but that's quite an increase in a very short period of time. The price increase is also affected by the fact that the Knicks are desperate for a PG.
The price increased because he was their 2nd best player the second half of the year and in the playoffs..
The Mavs are willing to go to 5 for 110 according to reports
I'm sure if they wanted to, they could make it happen but how would that work? Resign Mitch and trade for Ayton? How does Mitch, Ayton, Randle, Obi fit on the floor? Sign Mitch and send him there (BYC challenges?)? Trade Obi for Ayton? Randle? The fit seems tricky.
I'm trying to think of a situation where a talented up and coming player got run out of town like the Suns seem to be running Ayton out of town - where that player blossomed later. Take a chance on talent, of course, but wow that situation has real red flags for me.
RJ and Brunson shouldn't be at their full potential. I'm not so sure that it's a given Brunson is a better player and by a lot. Outside of a spurt with Rose(who came off the bench), RJ really hasn't had a good PG to work with.
I'm excited to see how these guys come into camp and what they've improved on.
You know who I'm a little excited about...Sims. He's been working with Randle and they both look jacked. I think Randle comes in super motivated and I think Sims takes a step forward. He was a little raw last year, but there is something about this kid that I really like. Seems very determined.
Fit on GS (Boston if no Williams) etc cause those teams have shooters. Ayton can actually stroke it for a big fella. We haven’t had a 5 who could shoot in some time.
was talked about on "Get Up" this morning. The consensus seemed to be that the Knicks were going to greatly overpay for Brunson by giving him $100M. I tend to agree. They seem to be desperate, especially for a PG. More proof of that was their desperate desire to try and get Ivey.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
How is it an overpay? he is going to be the 14th highest paid PG, how is that an overpay?
and why is it only Brunson, Rj and Obi?
Knicks have drafted well under Leon Rose and Walt Perrin
In January the Mavericks could have apparently resigned Brunson for 4/55. Now it's $100M. I know he played well in the playoffs, but that's quite an increase in a very short period of time. The price increase is also affected by the fact that the Knicks are desperate for a PG.
I think you have that backwards. From what I’ve read, the Mavs OFFERED Brunson 4-$55M and he declined
I sure hope so. But there's been so much noise around our pursuit of Brunson. So much that I'm pretty much expecting a tampering complaint from Dallas at some point. But there's been no public chatter on Ayton.
was talked about on "Get Up" this morning. The consensus seemed to be that the Knicks were going to greatly overpay for Brunson by giving him $100M. I tend to agree. They seem to be desperate, especially for a PG. More proof of that was their desperate desire to try and get Ivey.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
How is it an overpay? he is going to be the 14th highest paid PG, how is that an overpay?
and why is it only Brunson, Rj and Obi?
Knicks have drafted well under Leon Rose and Walt Perrin
In January the Mavericks could have apparently resigned Brunson for 4/55. Now it's $100M. I know he played well in the playoffs, but that's quite an increase in a very short period of time. The price increase is also affected by the fact that the Knicks are desperate for a PG.
I think you have that backwards. From what I’ve read, the Mavs OFFERED Brunson 4-$55M and he declined
I heard that's what Brunson asked for, but as I said, I will defer to others who know more.
its contingent on a max deal. What do you guys think about Ayton on a max deal. The suns don't seem all that interested and it doesn't seem like anyone else is all that interested either.
I don’t see Brunson as a true point. More of a scoring guard. With Randle and Barrett on the team, they will be more of your primary ball handlers and Brunson will play off of them much like he did with Luka.
And what do you do with Quick off the bench? Another player who needs the ball to be effective.
The Randle at pt fwd experiment was a failure. We need a real PG and Randle needs to handle the ball much less.
its contingent on a max deal. What do you guys think about Ayton on a max deal. The suns don't seem all that interested and it doesn't seem like anyone else is all that interested either.
I wouldnt hate it, he has more to his game than shown in Phoenix because Booker and CP3 are there and i dont think the Suns letting Ayton leave is so much a discredit of Ayton but it just shows how cheap Sarver is..
Suns are going to take a major step back next year
And for the few who think Brunson is better than RJ…. You’re going to be very disappointed in results then. Brunson benefited playing next to a top 5 player in the game. It’s different situations but RJ is a much, much better player.
And for the few who think Brunson is better than RJ…. You’re going to be very disappointed in results then. Brunson benefited playing next to a top 5 player in the game. It’s different situations but RJ is a much, much better player.
His numbers were better when he was on the court without Luka
I don’t see Brunson as a true point. More of a scoring guard. With Randle and Barrett on the team, they will be more of your primary ball handlers and Brunson will play off of them much like he did with Luka.
And what do you do with Quick off the bench? Another player who needs the ball to be effective.
The Randle at pt fwd experiment was a failure. We need a real PG and Randle needs to handle the ball much less.
RJ should have the ball more in his hands.
I think you need Randle off the team totally to maximize Brunson, RJ, and IQ.
And for the few who think Brunson is better than RJ…. You’re going to be very disappointed in results then. Brunson benefited playing next to a top 5 player in the game. It’s different situations but RJ is a much, much better player.
His numbers were better when he was on the court without Luka
And for the few who think Brunson is better than RJ…. You’re going to be very disappointed in results then. Brunson benefited playing next to a top 5 player in the game. It’s different situations but RJ is a much, much better player.
Brunsons numbers were better when Luka didn’t play, so that doesn’t support the idea that he was benefited by playing next to a top 5 player. The idea that RJ is much better than Brunson is a tough case to make. At this point in their careers they are pretty close, both have All Star potential, but the advantage on RJs side is he is much younger so likely has the higher ceiling.
but ill pass. I said the same yesterday. I just dont want to pay him 33 mill or whatever his max is. I see him as embiid lite and i dont think embiid lite is the best player on a good team and at that salary i want to think he will be my best player. You will very quickly be locked into a core of Bruson, RJ, and Ayton. RJ and Ayton would have to make bit strides for that to be a true contender.
That said if we did get him, id be excited just cause he does make us better. He is a good NBA center, just not a guy that should make superstar money
Was surrounded by shooters in Dallas - THJR, Finney, Kleber, Bullock. Perfect for his game.
Coming to the Knicks with JR, RJ, And Mitch - lot of non shooting and lane clogging. Brunson is a better shooter than RJ - will create gaps and opportunities for RJ to drive and kick.
If Brunson signs - his game will be optimize without JR and Mitch. I don’t like the fit with Jalen and those 2.
Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Ya think about CP3? I always felt his leadership was overrated. He seems more like an insufferable prick than a good teammate.
We’re on the same page. Dude has played for a lot of teams and is very demanding. And once your game goes south, like CP3 did in the playoffs, that type of leadership becomes stand offish
@ShamsCharania
Denver is nearing trading Monte Morris and Will Barton to Washington in deal for Kentavious Caldwell-Pope and Ish Smith, sources tell @TheAthletic
This trade is awful. Nuggets save 5 mill to get two worse players. Contracts are basically the same except Morris is signed for another season after this one.
Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Im not the biggest Mitch fan, but if i can get mitch for 12 mill or Ayton for 33 mill i prolly lean Mitch. Better defender, probably similar rebounder, neither are 3 point shooters. Yes Ayton's offensive game is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mitch, but you lose for mitch for nothing and pay ayton 20 mill more, so he can hit the 12 footer? Ehh, i dont love it.
Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
days but the more i think about it i just dont know about the fit. It would depend what else they do, but it could leave you with no 3 pt shooting. Murray is poor, Mitch is nonexistant, and then you have Randle and RJ. You would really be banking on them being closer to the guy they were last year, but Randle career is nowhere near what he was that year and RJ who knows.
And you would 100% have to be moving Randle. Cant have 4 guys who are at their best with the ball. Especially when one is Randle who thinks he should dominate the ball like Lebron. RJ would go back to just standing around.
ALl that said, i really like Murray so ill talk myself into it working if we make the move.
Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Im not the biggest Mitch fan, but if i can get mitch for 12 mill or Ayton for 33 mill i prolly lean Mitch. Better defender, probably similar rebounder, neither are 3 point shooters. Yes Ayton's offensive game is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mitch, but you lose for mitch for nothing and pay ayton 20 mill more, so he can hit the 12 footer? Ehh, i dont love it.
I think the main selling point for Ayton over Mitch in that context is that Ayton is at least good enough from 12-15 ft that you can’t just ignore him. With Brunson and Barrett, guys that are at their best getting into the paint and attacking the rim, having a center that can somewhat pull the opposing center away from the basket would be a huge deal. Then if the other center collapses to help at the rim, you have the easy drive and kick to Ayton who is actually a threat to hit that shot. Creates a dynamic on offense that they haven’t had with Mitch, Sims or Noel.
that the Knicks may pursue Dejoute Murray even if they get Brunson. That would be pretty amazing. Absolutely love Murrays game. Link - ( New Window )
This would be a really interesting pairing. But the cost seems really high in terms of assets. You'd have to be pretty sure that this was one of the best guys available for you to spend them on.
Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Im not the biggest Mitch fan, but if i can get mitch for 12 mill or Ayton for 33 mill i prolly lean Mitch. Better defender, probably similar rebounder, neither are 3 point shooters. Yes Ayton's offensive game is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mitch, but you lose for mitch for nothing and pay ayton 20 mill more, so he can hit the 12 footer? Ehh, i dont love it.
I think it would be a S&T of Mitch (plus some draft comp) for Ayton and then NYK would be able to exceed the cap to extend Ayton.
Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Im not the biggest Mitch fan, but if i can get mitch for 12 mill or Ayton for 33 mill i prolly lean Mitch. Better defender, probably similar rebounder, neither are 3 point shooters. Yes Ayton's offensive game is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mitch, but you lose for mitch for nothing and pay ayton 20 mill more, so he can hit the 12 footer? Ehh, i dont love it.
There is very little value in the NBA for players like Ayton and Mitch its why there is very little demand.
Modern offenses need floor spacing and 5's that can demand a defender at the 3-point line. Mitch up high gives the defense an easy help situation elsewhere.
It is why I am surprised they are paying him 15 million for 4 years I can see that deal ages well. Everyone is looking for the stretch 5 that can give you good spacing.
And for the few who think Brunson is better than RJ…. You’re going to be very disappointed in results then. Brunson benefited playing next to a top 5 player in the game. It’s different situations but RJ is a much, much better player.
His numbers were better when he was on the court without Luka
Sample size my friend.
Sample size is irrelevant. He still performed with Luka not on the court
and paying the guy 30 mill i want him to be way better then mitch. Not just be able to hit the midrange. I feel like you can find a guy who does that for cheaper. Shit id almost rather sign Portis back then pay Ayton 33 mill.
Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Im not the biggest Mitch fan, but if i can get mitch for 12 mill or Ayton for 33 mill i prolly lean Mitch. Better defender, probably similar rebounder, neither are 3 point shooters. Yes Ayton's offensive game is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mitch, but you lose for mitch for nothing and pay ayton 20 mill more, so he can hit the 12 footer? Ehh, i dont love it.
There is very little value in the NBA for players like Ayton and Mitch its why there is very little demand.
Modern offenses need floor spacing and 5's that can demand a defender at the 3-point line. Mitch up high gives the defense an easy help situation elsewhere.
It is why I am surprised they are paying him 15 million for 4 years I can see that deal ages well. Everyone is looking for the stretch 5 that can give you good spacing.
Not everyone the eastern conference champs have a rim running center..
and the Warriors play either looney or Draymond at center, neither shoot the 3..
Its the make up around your center, if you have a bunch of shooters it works fine, if you have a bunch of slashers who can hit a 3 you need a spacer at the 5..
having said that id rsther the Knicks go for a spacer as currently constructed
It’s absolutely relevant because the numbers he produced without Luka, The numbers would make him close a max player. Much higher than the 24/27.5 AAV being talked about.
But NBA teams see the sample size and adjust accordingly.
Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Im not the biggest Mitch fan, but if i can get mitch for 12 mill or Ayton for 33 mill i prolly lean Mitch. Better defender, probably similar rebounder, neither are 3 point shooters. Yes Ayton's offensive game is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mitch, but you lose for mitch for nothing and pay ayton 20 mill more, so he can hit the 12 footer? Ehh, i dont love it.
There is very little value in the NBA for players like Ayton and Mitch its why there is very little demand.
Modern offenses need floor spacing and 5's that can demand a defender at the 3-point line. Mitch up high gives the defense an easy help situation elsewhere.
It is why I am surprised they are paying him 15 million for 4 years I can see that deal ages well. Everyone is looking for the stretch 5 that can give you good spacing.
I have a hard time grouping Ayton and Mitch as similar. They are not. Ayton has a nice stroke. Comfortably shoots 15 footers in live action. Clearly working on extending his range. Mitch can only dunk as a means of scoring.
RE: All signs point to Randle being on the roster to start the season.
Thibs needs to find a way for both he and Obi to play 30 min a night and about 12 of those where they are on the court at the same time until Randle builds up his trade value.
Agree. They'd be selling low on Randle right now and I don't think this regime is inclined to do that. They'll bet on him having enough of a bounce-back to find a trade partner during the season.
Randle seemed off last season, a different guy from the season before. Not just a different player, a different person. Maybe off-the-court issues, maybe mental health issues, I don't know. I'm hoping it's not as simple as "can't handle playing in front of fans."
center is of course great, but it's not a necessity for a top offense. Three of the top four offenses in the league (Jazz, Hawks, Suns) certainly didn't. As long as the defense needs to account for the center as a rim runner, you can still run an effective offense.
It’s absolutely relevant because the numbers he produced without Luka, The numbers would make him close a max player. Much higher than the 24/27.5 AAV being talked about.
But NBA teams see the sample size and adjust accordingly.
Thank you for making the point for me.
With or without Luka, Brunson is a very good player and as the lead guard could be an even better player potentially.
between Mitch and Ayton is free throw shooting. Mitch has somehow gotten worse each year in the league and his "form" is horrendous. Mitch is a pretty good offensive rebounder and finisher around the rim, but some of that is mitigated by his inabilty to make teams pay when they foul him.
It’s absolutely relevant because the numbers he produced without Luka, The numbers would make him close a max player. Much higher than the 24/27.5 AAV being talked about.
But NBA teams see the sample size and adjust accordingly.
Thank you for making the point for me.
With or without Luka, Brunson is a very good player and as the lead guard could be an even better player potentially.
Thank you for proving you didn’t understand a thing talked about. And I never said he couldn’t play lead guard but it wouldn’t be in the best interest of the Knicks cause they already have a guy who does it better.
center is of course great, but it's not a necessity for a top offense. Three of the top four offenses in the league (Jazz, Hawks, Suns) certainly didn't. As long as the defense needs to account for the center as a rim runner, you can still run an effective offense.
Gobert has been proven ineffective and a hindrance on offense during the playoffs and the Hawks have openly shopped Capela. So those 2 aren’t the best examples.
It’s absolutely relevant because the numbers he produced without Luka, The numbers would make him close a max player. Much higher than the 24/27.5 AAV being talked about.
But NBA teams see the sample size and adjust accordingly.
Thank you for making the point for me.
With or without Luka, Brunson is a very good player and as the lead guard could be an even better player potentially.
Thank you for proving you didn’t understand a thing talked about. And I never said he couldn’t play lead guard but it wouldn’t be in the best interest of the Knicks cause they already have a guy who does it better.
but you arent getting them at anywhere similar cost. To just swap them and pay ayton 20 more isnt that appealing to me. WS is a bit of a weird stat to me, but Mitch was higher and just below in PER. Of course advanced stats have always loved mitch.
RE: Brunson will make Mitch a better offensive player
He is very good at the pick and roll which will make Mitch a better player as well as Sims.
Mitch needs to add some versatility to his offensive game. Some kind of low-post moves, a hook shot, a finger roll... something other than put-backs, layups and alley-oops. He's good at the things he's good at, he's just needs to be good at more things.
If he developed a good-enough 3-point shot to at least make defenders guard him on the perimeter, that would be huge.
center is of course great, but it's not a necessity for a top offense. Three of the top four offenses in the league (Jazz, Hawks, Suns) certainly didn't. As long as the defense needs to account for the center as a rim runner, you can still run an effective offense.
Gobert has been proven ineffective and a hindrance on offense during the playoffs and the Hawks have openly shopped Capela. So those 2 aren’t the best examples.
Slightly more to it than that.
But basically, in other words, you don't believe in math.
It's because you want to see what he can become. His potential is so much higher offensively than Mitch that they are not even comparable really.
And his value has dropped where he might be pretty get-able.
I like Mitch because he is just good at what he does. Good rim protector, good offensive rebounder, improving post defender. His defense gets smarter every year. But he's pretty close to as good as he's gonna be, too. With Ayton, there's still room to grow. The question is why it went south in PHO.
It’s absolutely relevant because the numbers he produced without Luka, The numbers would make him close a max player. Much higher than the 24/27.5 AAV being talked about.
But NBA teams see the sample size and adjust accordingly.
Thank you for making the point for me.
With or without Luka, Brunson is a very good player and as the lead guard could be an even better player potentially.
Thank you for proving you didn’t understand a thing talked about. And I never said he couldn’t play lead guard but it wouldn’t be in the best interest of the Knicks cause they already have a guy who does it better.
this doesn't even make any sense, lol. What team are you even talking about?
center is of course great, but it's not a necessity for a top offense. Three of the top four offenses in the league (Jazz, Hawks, Suns) certainly didn't. As long as the defense needs to account for the center as a rim runner, you can still run an effective offense.
Gobert has been proven ineffective and a hindrance on offense during the playoffs and the Hawks have openly shopped Capela. So those 2 aren’t the best examples.
Slightly more to it than that.
But basically, in other words, you don't believe in math.
I actually believe in playoff results. Try it some time…
center is of course great, but it's not a necessity for a top offense. Three of the top four offenses in the league (Jazz, Hawks, Suns) certainly didn't. As long as the defense needs to account for the center as a rim runner, you can still run an effective offense.
Gobert has been proven ineffective and a hindrance on offense during the playoffs and the Hawks have openly shopped Capela. So those 2 aren’t the best examples.
Slightly more to it than that.
But basically, in other words, you don't believe in math.
I actually believe in playoff results. Try it some time…
try not believing in lazy narratives. You might learn something.
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
Was surrounded by shooters in Dallas - THJR, Finney, Kleber, Bullock. Perfect for his game.
Coming to the Knicks with JR, RJ, And Mitch - lot of non shooting and lane clogging. Brunson is a better shooter than RJ - will create gaps and opportunities for RJ to drive and kick.
If Brunson signs - his game will be optimize without JR and Mitch. I don’t like the fit with Jalen and those 2.
Brunson is 6'1" and does not have elite quickness or athleticism. Some here seem to think Knicks would be getting a guy who will grow into the next Trae Young. Not happening.
And this entire narrative about his playing better without Doncic is based on the fact that he had two great, high scoring games when Doncic was out in the playoffs. Just really silly.
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
And it could work that way but not with JR and Mitch. I worry that with a lack of shooting - things would be tougher in the lane for JB than it would be for RJ.
I like JB off the ball more. I guess I’m in the minority here but RJ without the ball is not as effective. Now again there will be enough possessions for both to do their thing, but you don’t want a situation last year where RJ became a spot up guy due to Randles game.
Was surrounded by shooters in Dallas - THJR, Finney, Kleber, Bullock. Perfect for his game.
Coming to the Knicks with JR, RJ, And Mitch - lot of non shooting and lane clogging. Brunson is a better shooter than RJ - will create gaps and opportunities for RJ to drive and kick.
If Brunson signs - his game will be optimize without JR and Mitch. I don’t like the fit with Jalen and those 2.
Brunson is 6'1" and does not have elite quickness or athleticism. Some here seem to think Knicks would be getting a guy who will grow into the next Trae Young. Not happening.
And this entire narrative about his playing better without Doncic is based on the fact that he had two great, high scoring games when Doncic was out in the playoffs. Just really silly.
First off who said he will be Trae Young? show me please
Second its not based on 2 great games, its based on a great playoffs and a great regular season with Doncic on and off the court. Brunson was able to average 5 assists playing next to a guy who always has the ball
Lol. Usually the comeback of someone who doesn’t know shit. But keep thinking the Jazz and Gobert are some kind of offensive juggernauts in the playoffs. Haha
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
Interesting that Fischer has Mitch's return sounding very likely vs. Katz who has it more open ended in today's piece
I wonder if AJ says about Ayton is true and i have no reason not to believe him, they may have a deal lined up with Mitch in case they cant get Ayton..
If they can, maybe Mitch goes in a sign and trade to phoenix or somewhere else
who are arguing about Brunson or saying they'll be paying him like a star and he's not...
-correct, he is not a star nor do I expect him to be
but, he is:
-tough
-efficient
-smart
-greatly mitigates Randle's inefficiency by providing the team with an actual lead guard
-presence makes it far more likely all the young players achieve success (mainly by virtue to the point about Randle no longer running the offense into the ground)
-fair to expect him to average 17+ points, 7+ assists and captain this young team
This year. Obviously low attempts, but only 23 who can expand to that area if need me. Brook Lopez did it much later in his career. But Ayton’s stroke shows he can be a competent 3 point shooter.
who are arguing about Brunson or saying they'll be paying him like a star and he's not...
-correct, he is not a star nor do I expect him to be
but, he is:
-tough
-efficient
-smart
-greatly mitigates Randle's inefficiency by providing the team with an actual lead guard
-presence makes it far more likely all the young players achieve success (mainly by virtue to the point about Randle no longer running the offense into the ground)
-fair to expect him to average 17+ points, 7+ assists and captain this young team
Paying big money to non-stars is the road to ruin in the NBA.
your telling me we arent getting Trae young mixed with Ja Morant?????
Most knick fans seem to know exactly what Bruson is. An upgrade to what we have, a good but not amazing player. You are hoping he is in his prime kyle lowry. The version that TOR got.
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
Most knick fans seem to know exactly what Bruson is. An upgrade to what we have, a good but not amazing player. You are hoping he is in his prime kyle lowry. The version that TOR got.
Well put. Gotta have some perspective given the history of the position on this team. And one thing that doesn't show in the stats are this guy's intangibles. He was a hell of a leader and winner in college.
This year. Obviously low attempts, but only 23 who can expand to that area if need me. Brook Lopez did it much later in his career. But Ayton’s stroke shows he can be a competent 3 point shooter.
In Ayton case you just have to be willing to take them when you are open. Pull your defender out of the paint. If he can shoot .250 to .300 from the arc that opens up lanes and makes teams guard you up high.
Mitch doesn't give you that and his defender drops down to take away lanes.
True centers outside of 2 or 3 players are an after thought in the modern NBA.
To be clear the Ayton stuff is just trying to read the tea leaves
No actual smoke yet. But all signs point to them anticipating making another move this summer. They didn’t have to make all those moves to get Brunson and could have waited on moving Noel.
The only two players that seem to be available that are upgrades are Murray and Ayton and I just don’t see Murray happening.
who are arguing about Brunson or saying they'll be paying him like a star and he's not...
-correct, he is not a star nor do I expect him to be
but, he is:
-tough
-efficient
-smart
-greatly mitigates Randle's inefficiency by providing the team with an actual lead guard
-presence makes it far more likely all the young players achieve success (mainly by virtue to the point about Randle no longer running the offense into the ground)
-fair to expect him to average 17+ points, 7+ assists and captain this young team
Paying big money to non-stars is the road to ruin in the NBA.
what big money? he will be the 15th highest paid PG in the NBA
your telling me we arent getting Trae young mixed with Ja Morant?????
Most knick fans seem to know exactly what Bruson is. An upgrade to what we have, a good but not amazing player. You are hoping he is in his prime kyle lowry. The version that TOR got.
This year. Obviously low attempts, but only 23 who can expand to that area if need me. Brook Lopez did it much later in his career. But Ayton’s stroke shows he can be a competent 3 point shooter.
In Ayton case you just have to be willing to take them when you are open. Pull your defender out of the paint. If he can shoot .250 to .300 from the arc that opens up lanes and makes teams guard you up high.
Mitch doesn't give you that and his defender drops down to take away lanes.
True centers outside of 2 or 3 players are an after thought in the modern NBA.
Agree with this. Not sure if Ayton was told not to shoot them but his shooting stroke is pretty good. No reason he can’t be knocking a 3 down a game.
Just a heads up on what Maverick fans think of Brunson
they are comparing losing him to when they lost Steve Nash. Thinks he is a rising star and if you look at Nash's numbers his first few years in the league I don't think they're wrong.
That is not "paying him like a star". Period, full stop. It is a non-point. It is not arguable.
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
It makes him the 39th highest paid player in the league which is upper 10% of the league is he in the top 50 of the NBA?
My point is more about the resources to Brunson takes away ability to pay other high potential players and I don't see him more than a 3rd option on a championship team.
I know he had a great playoff run but when he is the #1 or #2 option on this team and teams go out of their way to stop him he is limited physically both size and athleticism.
Dog mentality can only get you so far in a league full of very athletic players.
I hope I am wrong but if he is a 15 and 6 player next year how hard will it be to move that contract for an actual star?
"Some people in the organization have concerns about an Evan Fournier-Jalen Brunson backcourt"I mean... THEY signed Fournier and THEY are opting to add Brunson... so... move Fournier but again, it's another example of the FO adding players at "good $" and then pivoting, hopefully not MORE picks attached to move Fournier
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
just ignore the troll.
not a troll, just dep back from the grave.
Is that really who it is?
i seen this guy posting about the wolverines, the bulls and the Phillies. if its not him then it might be the only other person in existence that is interested in those 3 teams
RE: Just a heads up on what Maverick fans think of Brunson
they are comparing losing him to when they lost Steve Nash. Thinks he is a rising star and if you look at Nash's numbers his first few years in the league I don't think they're wrong.
C'mon lol. Steve Nash is one of the all-time great PG's. Brunson is nowhere near that.
That is not "paying him like a star". Period, full stop. It is a non-point. It is not arguable.
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
It makes him the 39th highest paid player in the league which is upper 10% of the league is he in the top 50 of the NBA?
You can't assume the deal would be a flat 25m per, but if that is the case, that's outside the top 40 this year. But we're splitting hairs here. Any time you go to free agency, you are going to pay at or above market price.
The cap spike of a few years ago has changed salary expectations and we should acknowledge that. The point remains, he's paid in the middle class of PGs, which is decidedly not a "star".
If the problem the Knicks have is salary woes, the cause is not the midrange salary guy that is consistently productive. It's the players making more that don't impact the team sufficiently. This is an issue with Randle or Fournier; two players who need to be given the ball in their spot to be effective. Actually having a PG who can run the offense gets more out of Randle.
No team in the NBA had fewer assists than the Knicks last season. They had a consistent problem with looking disorganized and slow on offense. This didn't happen with a healthy Rose, but you can't count on a healthy Rose anymore.
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
just ignore the troll.
not a troll, just dep back from the grave.
Is that really who it is?
i seen this guy posting about the wolverines, the bulls and the Phillies. if its not him then it might be the only other person in existence that is interested in those 3 teams
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
1,000%
Case in point - Jalen Brunson was a second round pick.
Bottom line is that the Knicks have been both very unlucky AND they suck at drafting. But this is what you get when you hire “names” instead of a knowledgeable front office.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
1,000%
Case in point - Jalen Brunson was a second round pick.
Bottom line is that the Knicks have been both very unlucky AND they suck at drafting. But this is what you get when you hire “names” instead of a knowledgeable front office.
Actually this front office has been good at drafting and they dont just ahve "names" They have Walt Perrin who ran the drafts for Utah, Aller who is one of the best cap guys in the NBA..
(I know stats aren't everything but) there was a drastic difference in Brunson's stats when Luka was out and it wasn't an insignificant sample size imo. In 17 reg season games when Luka was inactive, Brunson averaged about 20.5 pts and 7.8 Ast. In 3 playoff games when Luka was inactive, Brunson averaged 32 pts.
I'm generally an optimist (though that word and Knicks usually don't go together) and we haven't had a decent young PG in years, so if they sign Brunson I'll hope for the best.
That is not "paying him like a star". Period, full stop. It is a non-point. It is not arguable.
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
It makes him the 39th highest paid player in the league which is upper 10% of the league is he in the top 50 of the NBA?
You can't assume the deal would be a flat 25m per, but if that is the case, that's outside the top 40 this year. But we're splitting hairs here. Any time you go to free agency, you are going to pay at or above market price.
The cap spike of a few years ago has changed salary expectations and we should acknowledge that. The point remains, he's paid in the middle class of PGs, which is decidedly not a "star".
If the problem the Knicks have is salary woes, the cause is not the midrange salary guy that is consistently productive. It's the players making more that don't impact the team sufficiently. This is an issue with Randle or Fournier; two players who need to be given the ball in their spot to be effective. Actually having a PG who can run the offense gets more out of Randle.
No team in the NBA had fewer assists than the Knicks last season. They had a consistent problem with looking disorganized and slow on offense. This didn't happen with a healthy Rose, but you can't count on a healthy Rose anymore.
They had a 6'8" 250lb guy not named Lebron James running the offense into the ground. That changes w Brunson.
RE: RE: Just a heads up on what Maverick fans think of Brunson
they are comparing losing him to when they lost Steve Nash. Thinks he is a rising star and if you look at Nash's numbers his first few years in the league I don't think they're wrong.
C'mon lol. Steve Nash is one of the all-time great PG's. Brunson is nowhere near that.
I'm just telling you what I was reading from MANY Mavs fans. Steve Nash's first couple of years in the league he was a 8/5/3 guy. Brunson has only been in the league 3 years. I'm sure when Nash left the Mavs they didn't think he was going to be an all time great and I'm not saying that Brunson will either but just this is what Mavs fans are likening this to.
stop already. Brunson is an ascending talent and player. The metrics scream this. Even if he stays as is, he's a solid dependable PG. And he's 25. Those guys get paid.
How many great or very important players weren't the most explosive or "twitchy" for some of you to allow for some nuance to the debate? Brunson isn't Vince Carter or Morant. EVERYONE knows that already. The problem in this debate is some of you don't want to acknowledge that some of the best guards to play the game weren't necessarily known for explosive athleticism. There are enough examples to give one reasonable hope that Brunson could be yet another and as stated numerous times, he's already pretty fucking good.
"it's an over pay he's not a star" wtf does that even mean...that's a lazy and jaded Knicks fan take.
the Mavs thought Brunson was "Steve Nash" Cuban would have offered max and the entire league would have been frothing at the mouth to add him. C'mon, I like Brunson but Steve Nash is one of the best ball handling and passing PG's in NBA history. I actually see a TON of Mavs fans "fine" (disappointed) but "fine" with letting him walk. That's not a knock. Nash came into the league from Santa Clara (a crap bball school) and sat behind Kevin Johnson so they traded him to Dallas. He was an elite level shooter the minute he joined the league (40% from 3 his first 4 seasons), 88% (not a typo) from the line.
just dug through 3 different Mavs message boards and
#1 I didn't see a single person compare him to Nash or anything of the sort. Some thought he had a "shot" to be a top 10 PG, others labeled him a "good starter", while others think he was (in part) a product of Kidd's system.
#2 Most are unhappy he's leaving. Some are blaming Cuban, some are blaming Donnie Walsh and some are blaming Nico Harrison. Within these groups, some are most upset that Brunson's rookie deal had a 4th year non-guaranteed (which is why he's an UFA now, vs. a team option (they blame Donnie Walsh for this decision)
#3 A few are upset a homegrown guy is leaving them over money, but the vast majority understand it's a business.
#4 A few believe he has a chance to be a borderline all-star and see very little risk for the Mavs since they are already going to be paying a luxury tax as is.
#5 Some don't see how they are able to find a player on the FA that will replace Brunson given the money they have to spend (though some think Hardy will be able to play some PG and step right into some of Brunson's minutes).
#6 Some think Luca (like Dirk) is going to have trouble drawing a second superstar because he's not part of the "NBA elite" group (friendships wise) and is instead a Euro.
Sorry, haven’t been able to find it in these threads.
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
RE: RE: Sorry, haven’t been able to find it in these threads.
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
RE: RE: RE: Sorry, haven’t been able to find it in these threads.
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
No, not really. These are the types of moves that really poor run franchises have to make. So, it’s completely on brand. It’s embarrassing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Sorry, haven’t been able to find it in these threads.
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
No, not really. These are the types of moves that really poor run franchises have to make. So, it’s completely on brand. It’s embarrassing.
And how is that? they gave up 1 2nd round pick, the other is top 55 protected..
They cleared 19 million in space and got rid of 2 guys who are blocking youth...
The Knicks may get those second round picks back anyways
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
No, not really. These are the types of moves that really poor run franchises have to make. So, it’s completely on brand. It’s embarrassing.
And how is that? they gave up 1 2nd round pick, the other is top 55 protected..
They cleared 19 million in space and got rid of 2 guys who are blocking youth...
The way you guys talk about the value of draft picks is amusing.
First, I don’t disagree with what you said. But the reality is that the Knicks gave away two useful players plus 2 second round draft picks PLUS $6 million in cash just to have the opportunity to spend THEIR OWN MONEY.
I get that it’s a move they have to make but, as per the norm, teams have the Knicks over a barrel and get decent players for free (plus picks, plus millions in cash).
So much for all of the people insisting we’d have to attach a first to each of them to shed those salaries.
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The Knicks are including two future second-round picks and cash in the deal to incentivize the Pistons, sources tell ESPN.
So much for all of the people insisting we’d have to attach a first to each of them to shed those salaries.
Unlike Kemba, these two have some value as decent vet pieces who aren’t getting paid too too much
It will also be interesting to see if Seals and Montero can play--they have some fans.
Post: Brunson to Knicks momentum is growing.
"Momentum appears to be building. With the free-agency period nearing, the Knicks seem to be in great shape to land top target Jalen Brunson of the Mavericks.
Multiple reports emerged Tuesday claiming that Brunson signing with the Knicks is inevitable, that the Mavericks have become resigned to the notion of losing the valuable guard. Mavericks beat writer Tim Cato of The Athletic tweeted it is “seen as a certainty.” It is believed the Knicks are ready to offer the 6-foot-1 Brunson a four-year deal in excess of $100 million to fill their cavernous hole at point guard.
“I think he would come to the Knicks if that’s the case,” said a source close to Brunson, who has known him since college. “It would be tough to turn down.”"
Im guessing the rights to Maciej Lampe or Frederic Weis.
Miami's 2024 2nd round pick to Atlanta protected for selections 31-50 and 56-60 or to New York (via Cleveland to Detroit to Philadelphia) protected for selections 31-55 (Miami's obligation(s) to Atlanta and/or New York will thereafter be extinguished) [Cleveland-Miami, 2/8/2018; Atlanta-Miami, 6/19/2019; Cleveland-Detroit, 6/26/2019; Detroit-Philadelphia, 7/7/2019; New York-Oklahoma City-Philadelphia, 3/25/2021]
He is basically saying make this one big trade with Brunson coming to the Knicks and then Knicks have 10 million mid level because they never technically go under the cap..
Problem with that is Knicks just opened 38 million they arent planning to stay over the cap
Chris Haynes
@ChrisBHaynes
When free agency opens on Thursday, the New York Knicks are expected to present Jalen Brunson a four-year offer in the vicinity of $110 million, league sources tell @YahooSports.
I think Lavine is staying with Chicago. Beal has a PO IIRC that he is expected to decline.
I defer to others who know more about either situation.
Plenty of future picks. Plenty of money. Plenty of decent, young cost controlled talent. Time to strike.
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The Knicks are including two future second-round picks and cash in the deal to incentivize the Pistons, sources tell ESPN.
So much for all of the people insisting we’d have to attach a first to each of them to shed those salaries.
I was wrong about this- thought it would cost more to move Noel. I’ll miss Burks but this is the cost of doing business. Solid trade here.
What’s the word on Robinson coming back? What’s next?
I also don’t really understand the complaints about Brunson. The reported offers seem fair to me but I’m a huge fan of his. Dallas was also insane not to agree to that 4/55 extension.
Contract or not, I feel pretty confident that he'll be the best PG the Knicks have had since Mark Jackson.
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In comment 15743214 DanMetroMan said:
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The Knicks are including two future second-round picks and cash in the deal to incentivize the Pistons, sources tell ESPN.
So much for all of the people insisting we’d have to attach a first to each of them to shed those salaries.
I was wrong about this- thought it would cost more to move Noel. I’ll miss Burks but this is the cost of doing business. Solid trade here.
What’s the word on Robinson coming back? What’s next?
I also don’t really understand the complaints about Brunson. The reported offers seem fair to me but I’m a huge fan of his. Dallas was also insane not to agree to that 4/55 extension.
According to Fischer Mitch is exoected back 4 years 60 million, my guess there are jnlikely incentives in there that makes the value look more than it is
And what do you do with Quick off the bench? Another player who needs the ball to be effective.
And what do you do with Quick off the bench? Another player who needs the ball to be effective.
So a more expensive Payton and Burks? That would be fuckin horrible.
Fournier should be coming off the bench for some instant offense. Put Grimes as the starter and see how he fairs
Not sure about that. Barrett is still the better player. I think he’s gonna be more of your lead guard.
Most definitely.
Yes but the wizards will never get that number 1 option
The Knicks two biggest obstacles this year are seeing if two old dogs can learn new tricks between Randle changing his game to be more team friendly and Thibs changing his coaching style to fit this team. Barley playing Obi and Randle last year together was just ridiculously narrow minded.
Washington should have just traded him when they had the chance. The team has been irrelevant with Beal there for years, now you’re going to pay him $50 mil to continue being irrelevant? What is their path to getting better?
They would have been better off trading Beal for a young player and a boatload of picks, you’re probably not making the playoffs either way but at least you’re rebuilding and not paying 1 guy more than 1/3 of your cap.
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seasons...insanity to me. Is Beal even a second option on a title contender?
Washington should have just traded him when they had the chance. The team has been irrelevant with Beal there for years, now you’re going to pay him $50 mil to continue being irrelevant? What is their path to getting better?
They would have been better off trading Beal for a young player and a boatload of picks, you’re probably not making the playoffs either way but at least you’re rebuilding and not paying 1 guy more than 1/3 of your cap.
I don't know the full details but I remember him not wanting to leave. Did he have a no trade clause?
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He plays off ball in DAL because he plays with one of the top 5 players in the league who absolutely should start every possession with the ball. Not so, here in NY. He'll be the true PG here and he's outstanding as the PnR ball handler.
Not sure about that. Barrett is still the better player. I think he’s gonna be more of your lead guard.
Am I reading this right? You think Barrett is better than Brunson?
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In comment 15743367 Heisenberg said:
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He plays off ball in DAL because he plays with one of the top 5 players in the league who absolutely should start every possession with the ball. Not so, here in NY. He'll be the true PG here and he's outstanding as the PnR ball handler.
Not sure about that. Barrett is still the better player. I think he’s gonna be more of your lead guard.
Am I reading this right? You think Barrett is better than Brunson?
Yes. Barrett is better by a good margin too.
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In comment 15743372 GNewGiants said:
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In comment 15743367 Heisenberg said:
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He plays off ball in DAL because he plays with one of the top 5 players in the league who absolutely should start every possession with the ball. Not so, here in NY. He'll be the true PG here and he's outstanding as the PnR ball handler.
Not sure about that. Barrett is still the better player. I think he’s gonna be more of your lead guard.
Am I reading this right? You think Barrett is better than Brunson?
Yes. Barrett is better by a good margin too.
I love RJ but the gap between them in terms of efficiency is as wide as the Hudson.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
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seasons...insanity to me. Is Beal even a second option on a title contender?
Washington should have just traded him when they had the chance. The team has been irrelevant with Beal there for years, now you’re going to pay him $50 mil to continue being irrelevant? What is their path to getting better?
They would have been better off trading Beal for a young player and a boatload of picks, you’re probably not making the playoffs either way but at least you’re rebuilding and not paying 1 guy more than 1/3 of your cap.
Agreed.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
How is it an overpay? he is going to be the 14th highest paid PG, how is that an overpay?
and why is it only Brunson, Rj and Obi?
Knicks have drafted well under Leon Rose and Walt Perrin
Yeah. Salary cap relief which will be used to sign Brunson
Now if they can somehow dump Fournier, who never should have been signed in the first place. I was pining hard for DeMar DeRozan
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
Don't watch Get Up looking for astute basketball analysis.
First, no one got clowned when Fred VanVleet got 21+Million a year. Now the Knicks are getting clowned for signing the best FA on the market for 5M more per year? And you could make a solid argument that Brunson is better than FVV anyway.
Second, how far does it take them? Not sure, but giving Brunson that money is definitely better than giving it to Kemba, Burks and Noel. That's really all that matters. When the Knicks sign Brunson he'll be paid like the 15th highest paid PG in the league, improve the team and the Knicks will still have every valuable asset they have to try and get a star to come to NY. They'll have made the team more competitive but still not a contender. Rose is clearly confident that one of these big stars will shake loose and we will be ready to try and land him.
I really don’t see how this is an overpay for Brunson.
- he can be a lead guard or play off ball easily.
-he’s 25 and has gotten better every year in the league.
- he’s a good shooter and defender.
- he has won everywhere he’s played.
Fans and media are obsessed with contracts. I would love great players on bargain deals too but it doesn’t work like that. And when you get a free agent you typically have to overpay the current team.
I would bet he contends for an all star spot this year in the East.
Totally agree. One of the major bonuses to Brunson is it takes the ball the hell out of Randle's hands, thank god.
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was talked about on "Get Up" this morning. The consensus seemed to be that the Knicks were going to greatly overpay for Brunson by giving him $100M. I tend to agree. They seem to be desperate, especially for a PG. More proof of that was their desperate desire to try and get Ivey.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
How is it an overpay? he is going to be the 14th highest paid PG, how is that an overpay?
and why is it only Brunson, Rj and Obi?
Knicks have drafted well under Leon Rose and Walt Perrin
In January the Mavericks could have apparently resigned Brunson for 4/55. Now it's $100M. I know he played well in the playoffs, but that's quite an increase in a very short period of time. The price increase is also affected by the fact that the Knicks are desperate for a PG.
Glad to hear this. He’s a good player, and a much better fit than Murray.
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In comment 15743396 AcidTest said:
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was talked about on "Get Up" this morning. The consensus seemed to be that the Knicks were going to greatly overpay for Brunson by giving him $100M. I tend to agree. They seem to be desperate, especially for a PG. More proof of that was their desperate desire to try and get Ivey.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
How is it an overpay? he is going to be the 14th highest paid PG, how is that an overpay?
and why is it only Brunson, Rj and Obi?
Knicks have drafted well under Leon Rose and Walt Perrin
In January the Mavericks could have apparently resigned Brunson for 4/55. Now it's $100M. I know he played well in the playoffs, but that's quite an increase in a very short period of time. The price increase is also affected by the fact that the Knicks are desperate for a PG.
The price increased because he was their 2nd best player the second half of the year and in the playoffs..
The Mavs are willing to go to 5 for 110 according to reports
Interesting. He certainly is a distressed asset.
I'm sure if they wanted to, they could make it happen but how would that work? Resign Mitch and trade for Ayton? How does Mitch, Ayton, Randle, Obi fit on the floor? Sign Mitch and send him there (BYC challenges?)? Trade Obi for Ayton? Randle? The fit seems tricky.
I'm trying to think of a situation where a talented up and coming player got run out of town like the Suns seem to be running Ayton out of town - where that player blossomed later. Take a chance on talent, of course, but wow that situation has real red flags for me.
would love it but there are reports Mitch is basically a done deal
I'm excited to see how these guys come into camp and what they've improved on.
You know who I'm a little excited about...Sims. He's been working with Randle and they both look jacked. I think Randle comes in super motivated and I think Sims takes a step forward. He was a little raw last year, but there is something about this kid that I really like. Seems very determined.
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In comment 15743396 AcidTest said:
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was talked about on "Get Up" this morning. The consensus seemed to be that the Knicks were going to greatly overpay for Brunson by giving him $100M. I tend to agree. They seem to be desperate, especially for a PG. More proof of that was their desperate desire to try and get Ivey.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
How is it an overpay? he is going to be the 14th highest paid PG, how is that an overpay?
and why is it only Brunson, Rj and Obi?
Knicks have drafted well under Leon Rose and Walt Perrin
In January the Mavericks could have apparently resigned Brunson for 4/55. Now it's $100M. I know he played well in the playoffs, but that's quite an increase in a very short period of time. The price increase is also affected by the fact that the Knicks are desperate for a PG.
I think you have that backwards. From what I’ve read, the Mavs OFFERED Brunson 4-$55M and he declined
I sure hope so. But there's been so much noise around our pursuit of Brunson. So much that I'm pretty much expecting a tampering complaint from Dallas at some point. But there's been no public chatter on Ayton.
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In comment 15743398 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15743396 AcidTest said:
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was talked about on "Get Up" this morning. The consensus seemed to be that the Knicks were going to greatly overpay for Brunson by giving him $100M. I tend to agree. They seem to be desperate, especially for a PG. More proof of that was their desperate desire to try and get Ivey.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
How far does Brunson, RJB, and Obi get the Knicks, even if Obi gets a lot more minutes?
How is it an overpay? he is going to be the 14th highest paid PG, how is that an overpay?
and why is it only Brunson, Rj and Obi?
Knicks have drafted well under Leon Rose and Walt Perrin
In January the Mavericks could have apparently resigned Brunson for 4/55. Now it's $100M. I know he played well in the playoffs, but that's quite an increase in a very short period of time. The price increase is also affected by the fact that the Knicks are desperate for a PG.
I think you have that backwards. From what I’ve read, the Mavs OFFERED Brunson 4-$55M and he declined
I heard that's what Brunson asked for, but as I said, I will defer to others who know more.
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.
would love it but there are reports Mitch is basically a done deal
They could always sign and trade Mitch somewhere if they could close on Ayton.
Just a hunch, but of all the “what could the next move be” it’s one of the few options that could work.
And what do you do with Quick off the bench? Another player who needs the ball to be effective.
The Randle at pt fwd experiment was a failure. We need a real PG and Randle needs to handle the ball much less.
I wouldnt hate it, he has more to his game than shown in Phoenix because Booker and CP3 are there and i dont think the Suns letting Ayton leave is so much a discredit of Ayton but it just shows how cheap Sarver is..
Suns are going to take a major step back next year
I'd think Mitch would be a good cheaper option for the Suns in a sign and trade.
I'd think Mitch would be a good cheaper option for the Suns in a sign and trade.
Its true but i think Ayton has more to his game than just bring set up by a Point
And for the few who think Brunson is better than RJ…. You’re going to be very disappointed in results then. Brunson benefited playing next to a top 5 player in the game. It’s different situations but RJ is a much, much better player.
And for the few who think Brunson is better than RJ…. You’re going to be very disappointed in results then. Brunson benefited playing next to a top 5 player in the game. It’s different situations but RJ is a much, much better player.
His numbers were better when he was on the court without Luka
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I don’t see Brunson as a true point. More of a scoring guard. With Randle and Barrett on the team, they will be more of your primary ball handlers and Brunson will play off of them much like he did with Luka.
And what do you do with Quick off the bench? Another player who needs the ball to be effective.
The Randle at pt fwd experiment was a failure. We need a real PG and Randle needs to handle the ball much less.
RJ should have the ball more in his hands.
I think you need Randle off the team totally to maximize Brunson, RJ, and IQ.
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Over Mitch. If you can get him, you get him.
And for the few who think Brunson is better than RJ…. You’re going to be very disappointed in results then. Brunson benefited playing next to a top 5 player in the game. It’s different situations but RJ is a much, much better player.
His numbers were better when he was on the court without Luka
Sample size my friend.
And for the few who think Brunson is better than RJ…. You’re going to be very disappointed in results then. Brunson benefited playing next to a top 5 player in the game. It’s different situations but RJ is a much, much better player.
Brunsons numbers were better when Luka didn’t play, so that doesn’t support the idea that he was benefited by playing next to a top 5 player. The idea that RJ is much better than Brunson is a tough case to make. At this point in their careers they are pretty close, both have All Star potential, but the advantage on RJs side is he is much younger so likely has the higher ceiling.
That said if we did get him, id be excited just cause he does make us better. He is a good NBA center, just not a guy that should make superstar money
Coming to the Knicks with JR, RJ, And Mitch - lot of non shooting and lane clogging. Brunson is a better shooter than RJ - will create gaps and opportunities for RJ to drive and kick.
If Brunson signs - his game will be optimize without JR and Mitch. I don’t like the fit with Jalen and those 2.
He was kind of a dud in this years playoffs....
If he ever got his head straight he would be a complete force
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work ethic.
He was kind of a dud in this years playoffs....
Monty used him as a scapegoat for CP3 meltdown. For as great as a leader CP3 is touted - I bet he wears out his welcome quick with teammates.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
We’re on the same page. Dude has played for a lot of teams and is very demanding. And once your game goes south, like CP3 did in the playoffs, that type of leadership becomes stand offish
JJ Redick basically admitted this and i thinj Matt Barnes as well
Link - ( New Window )
Denver is nearing trading Monte Morris and Will Barton to Washington in deal for Kentavious Caldwell-Pope and Ish Smith, sources tell @TheAthletic
This trade is awful. Nuggets save 5 mill to get two worse players. Contracts are basically the same except Morris is signed for another season after this one.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Im not the biggest Mitch fan, but if i can get mitch for 12 mill or Ayton for 33 mill i prolly lean Mitch. Better defender, probably similar rebounder, neither are 3 point shooters. Yes Ayton's offensive game is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mitch, but you lose for mitch for nothing and pay ayton 20 mill more, so he can hit the 12 footer? Ehh, i dont love it.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
I'm sold...can we afford him?
I would absolutely not give him this much money. He is easily replaceable. I'd rather give that money to someone who is more rounded.
And you would 100% have to be moving Randle. Cant have 4 guys who are at their best with the ball. Especially when one is Randle who thinks he should dominate the ball like Lebron. RJ would go back to just standing around.
ALl that said, i really like Murray so ill talk myself into it working if we make the move.
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Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Im not the biggest Mitch fan, but if i can get mitch for 12 mill or Ayton for 33 mill i prolly lean Mitch. Better defender, probably similar rebounder, neither are 3 point shooters. Yes Ayton's offensive game is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mitch, but you lose for mitch for nothing and pay ayton 20 mill more, so he can hit the 12 footer? Ehh, i dont love it.
I think the main selling point for Ayton over Mitch in that context is that Ayton is at least good enough from 12-15 ft that you can’t just ignore him. With Brunson and Barrett, guys that are at their best getting into the paint and attacking the rim, having a center that can somewhat pull the opposing center away from the basket would be a huge deal. Then if the other center collapses to help at the rim, you have the easy drive and kick to Ayton who is actually a threat to hit that shot. Creates a dynamic on offense that they haven’t had with Mitch, Sims or Noel.
This would be a really interesting pairing. But the cost seems really high in terms of assets. You'd have to be pretty sure that this was one of the best guys available for you to spend them on.
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Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Im not the biggest Mitch fan, but if i can get mitch for 12 mill or Ayton for 33 mill i prolly lean Mitch. Better defender, probably similar rebounder, neither are 3 point shooters. Yes Ayton's offensive game is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mitch, but you lose for mitch for nothing and pay ayton 20 mill more, so he can hit the 12 footer? Ehh, i dont love it.
I think it would be a S&T of Mitch (plus some draft comp) for Ayton and then NYK would be able to exceed the cap to extend Ayton.
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Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Im not the biggest Mitch fan, but if i can get mitch for 12 mill or Ayton for 33 mill i prolly lean Mitch. Better defender, probably similar rebounder, neither are 3 point shooters. Yes Ayton's offensive game is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mitch, but you lose for mitch for nothing and pay ayton 20 mill more, so he can hit the 12 footer? Ehh, i dont love it.
There is very little value in the NBA for players like Ayton and Mitch its why there is very little demand.
Modern offenses need floor spacing and 5's that can demand a defender at the 3-point line. Mitch up high gives the defense an easy help situation elsewhere.
It is why I am surprised they are paying him 15 million for 4 years I can see that deal ages well. Everyone is looking for the stretch 5 that can give you good spacing.
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In comment 15743468 GNewGiants said:
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Over Mitch. If you can get him, you get him.
And for the few who think Brunson is better than RJ…. You’re going to be very disappointed in results then. Brunson benefited playing next to a top 5 player in the game. It’s different situations but RJ is a much, much better player.
His numbers were better when he was on the court without Luka
Sample size my friend.
Sample size is irrelevant. He still performed with Luka not on the court
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In comment 15743492 NYG22 said:
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Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Im not the biggest Mitch fan, but if i can get mitch for 12 mill or Ayton for 33 mill i prolly lean Mitch. Better defender, probably similar rebounder, neither are 3 point shooters. Yes Ayton's offensive game is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mitch, but you lose for mitch for nothing and pay ayton 20 mill more, so he can hit the 12 footer? Ehh, i dont love it.
There is very little value in the NBA for players like Ayton and Mitch its why there is very little demand.
Modern offenses need floor spacing and 5's that can demand a defender at the 3-point line. Mitch up high gives the defense an easy help situation elsewhere.
It is why I am surprised they are paying him 15 million for 4 years I can see that deal ages well. Everyone is looking for the stretch 5 that can give you good spacing.
Not everyone the eastern conference champs have a rim running center..
and the Warriors play either looney or Draymond at center, neither shoot the 3..
Its the make up around your center, if you have a bunch of shooters it works fine, if you have a bunch of slashers who can hit a 3 you need a spacer at the 5..
having said that id rsther the Knicks go for a spacer as currently constructed
It’s absolutely relevant because the numbers he produced without Luka, The numbers would make him close a max player. Much higher than the 24/27.5 AAV being talked about.
But NBA teams see the sample size and adjust accordingly.
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In comment 15743492 NYG22 said:
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Averages high teens (call it 17). Will shoot over 60%. Besides rim diving off PNRs, he's got a solid shot from 12-15 and will knock down 75% of FTs. Has been north of 10 in rebounds every year of his career.
Has improved his defense (not saying he's great, but he's statistically a tad better than average).
His playoff stats almost exactly match his in season stats.
Im not the biggest Mitch fan, but if i can get mitch for 12 mill or Ayton for 33 mill i prolly lean Mitch. Better defender, probably similar rebounder, neither are 3 point shooters. Yes Ayton's offensive game is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mitch, but you lose for mitch for nothing and pay ayton 20 mill more, so he can hit the 12 footer? Ehh, i dont love it.
There is very little value in the NBA for players like Ayton and Mitch its why there is very little demand.
Modern offenses need floor spacing and 5's that can demand a defender at the 3-point line. Mitch up high gives the defense an easy help situation elsewhere.
It is why I am surprised they are paying him 15 million for 4 years I can see that deal ages well. Everyone is looking for the stretch 5 that can give you good spacing.
I have a hard time grouping Ayton and Mitch as similar. They are not. Ayton has a nice stroke. Comfortably shoots 15 footers in live action. Clearly working on extending his range. Mitch can only dunk as a means of scoring.
Randle seemed off last season, a different guy from the season before. Not just a different player, a different person. Maybe off-the-court issues, maybe mental health issues, I don't know. I'm hoping it's not as simple as "can't handle playing in front of fans."
It’s absolutely relevant because the numbers he produced without Luka, The numbers would make him close a max player. Much higher than the 24/27.5 AAV being talked about.
But NBA teams see the sample size and adjust accordingly.
Thank you for making the point for me.
With or without Luka, Brunson is a very good player and as the lead guard could be an even better player potentially.
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Ok.
It’s absolutely relevant because the numbers he produced without Luka, The numbers would make him close a max player. Much higher than the 24/27.5 AAV being talked about.
But NBA teams see the sample size and adjust accordingly.
Thank you for making the point for me.
With or without Luka, Brunson is a very good player and as the lead guard could be an even better player potentially.
Thank you for proving you didn’t understand a thing talked about. And I never said he couldn’t play lead guard but it wouldn’t be in the best interest of the Knicks cause they already have a guy who does it better.
Gobert has been proven ineffective and a hindrance on offense during the playoffs and the Hawks have openly shopped Capela. So those 2 aren’t the best examples.
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In comment 15743519 GNewGiants said:
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Ok.
It’s absolutely relevant because the numbers he produced without Luka, The numbers would make him close a max player. Much higher than the 24/27.5 AAV being talked about.
But NBA teams see the sample size and adjust accordingly.
Thank you for making the point for me.
With or without Luka, Brunson is a very good player and as the lead guard could be an even better player potentially.
Thank you for proving you didn’t understand a thing talked about. And I never said he couldn’t play lead guard but it wouldn’t be in the best interest of the Knicks cause they already have a guy who does it better.
Rj plays a better lead guard? since when?
If he developed a good-enough 3-point shot to at least make defenders guard him on the perimeter, that would be huge.
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center is of course great, but it's not a necessity for a top offense. Three of the top four offenses in the league (Jazz, Hawks, Suns) certainly didn't. As long as the defense needs to account for the center as a rim runner, you can still run an effective offense.
Gobert has been proven ineffective and a hindrance on offense during the playoffs and the Hawks have openly shopped Capela. So those 2 aren’t the best examples.
Slightly more to it than that.
But basically, in other words, you don't believe in math.
And his value has dropped where he might be pretty get-able.
I like Mitch because he is just good at what he does. Good rim protector, good offensive rebounder, improving post defender. His defense gets smarter every year. But he's pretty close to as good as he's gonna be, too. With Ayton, there's still room to grow. The question is why it went south in PHO.
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In comment 15743519 GNewGiants said:
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Ok.
It’s absolutely relevant because the numbers he produced without Luka, The numbers would make him close a max player. Much higher than the 24/27.5 AAV being talked about.
But NBA teams see the sample size and adjust accordingly.
Thank you for making the point for me.
With or without Luka, Brunson is a very good player and as the lead guard could be an even better player potentially.
Thank you for proving you didn’t understand a thing talked about. And I never said he couldn’t play lead guard but it wouldn’t be in the best interest of the Knicks cause they already have a guy who does it better.
this doesn't even make any sense, lol. What team are you even talking about?
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In comment 15743525 Enzo said:
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center is of course great, but it's not a necessity for a top offense. Three of the top four offenses in the league (Jazz, Hawks, Suns) certainly didn't. As long as the defense needs to account for the center as a rim runner, you can still run an effective offense.
Gobert has been proven ineffective and a hindrance on offense during the playoffs and the Hawks have openly shopped Capela. So those 2 aren’t the best examples.
Slightly more to it than that.
But basically, in other words, you don't believe in math.
I actually believe in playoff results. Try it some time…
this doesn't even make any sense, lol. What team are you even talking about?
Step away from the computer - once actual basketball talk gets involved - you get highly confused. It’s ok. Not meant for everyone.
Rj plays a better lead guard? since when?
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
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In comment 15743533 GNewGiants said:
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In comment 15743525 Enzo said:
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center is of course great, but it's not a necessity for a top offense. Three of the top four offenses in the league (Jazz, Hawks, Suns) certainly didn't. As long as the defense needs to account for the center as a rim runner, you can still run an effective offense.
Gobert has been proven ineffective and a hindrance on offense during the playoffs and the Hawks have openly shopped Capela. So those 2 aren’t the best examples.
Slightly more to it than that.
But basically, in other words, you don't believe in math.
I actually believe in playoff results. Try it some time…
try not believing in lazy narratives. You might learn something.
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In comment 15743531 GNewGiants said
Rj plays a better lead guard? since when?
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
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In comment 15743534 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15743531 GNewGiants said
Rj plays a better lead guard? since when?
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
just ignore the troll.
Coming to the Knicks with JR, RJ, And Mitch - lot of non shooting and lane clogging. Brunson is a better shooter than RJ - will create gaps and opportunities for RJ to drive and kick.
If Brunson signs - his game will be optimize without JR and Mitch. I don’t like the fit with Jalen and those 2.
Brunson is 6'1" and does not have elite quickness or athleticism. Some here seem to think Knicks would be getting a guy who will grow into the next Trae Young. Not happening.
And this entire narrative about his playing better without Doncic is based on the fact that he had two great, high scoring games when Doncic was out in the playoffs. Just really silly.
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In comment 15743534 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15743531 GNewGiants said
Rj plays a better lead guard? since when?
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
And it could work that way but not with JR and Mitch. I worry that with a lack of shooting - things would be tougher in the lane for JB than it would be for RJ.
I like JB off the ball more. I guess I’m in the minority here but RJ without the ball is not as effective. Now again there will be enough possessions for both to do their thing, but you don’t want a situation last year where RJ became a spot up guy due to Randles game.
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Was surrounded by shooters in Dallas - THJR, Finney, Kleber, Bullock. Perfect for his game.
Coming to the Knicks with JR, RJ, And Mitch - lot of non shooting and lane clogging. Brunson is a better shooter than RJ - will create gaps and opportunities for RJ to drive and kick.
If Brunson signs - his game will be optimize without JR and Mitch. I don’t like the fit with Jalen and those 2.
Brunson is 6'1" and does not have elite quickness or athleticism. Some here seem to think Knicks would be getting a guy who will grow into the next Trae Young. Not happening.
And this entire narrative about his playing better without Doncic is based on the fact that he had two great, high scoring games when Doncic was out in the playoffs. Just really silly.
First off who said he will be Trae Young? show me please
Second its not based on 2 great games, its based on a great playoffs and a great regular season with Doncic on and off the court. Brunson was able to average 5 assists playing next to a guy who always has the ball
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In comment 15743547 GNewGiants said:
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In comment 15743534 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15743531 GNewGiants said
Rj plays a better lead guard? since when?
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
just ignore the troll.
not a troll, just dep back from the grave.
I wonder if AJ says about Ayton is true and i have no reason not to believe him, they may have a deal lined up with Mitch in case they cant get Ayton..
If they can, maybe Mitch goes in a sign and trade to phoenix or somewhere else
-correct, he is not a star nor do I expect him to be
but, he is:
-tough
-efficient
-smart
-greatly mitigates Randle's inefficiency by providing the team with an actual lead guard
-presence makes it far more likely all the young players achieve success (mainly by virtue to the point about Randle no longer running the offense into the ground)
-fair to expect him to average 17+ points, 7+ assists and captain this young team
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
I think we can all agree on that. Getting rid of Burks is a huge plus, given the way Thibs used him.
-correct, he is not a star nor do I expect him to be
but, he is:
-tough
-efficient
-smart
-greatly mitigates Randle's inefficiency by providing the team with an actual lead guard
-presence makes it far more likely all the young players achieve success (mainly by virtue to the point about Randle no longer running the offense into the ground)
-fair to expect him to average 17+ points, 7+ assists and captain this young team
Paying big money to non-stars is the road to ruin in the NBA.
Most knick fans seem to know exactly what Bruson is. An upgrade to what we have, a good but not amazing player. You are hoping he is in his prime kyle lowry. The version that TOR got.
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In comment 15743552 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15743547 GNewGiants said:
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In comment 15743534 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15743531 GNewGiants said
Rj plays a better lead guard? since when?
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
just ignore the troll.
not a troll, just dep back from the grave.
Is that really who it is?
Well put. Gotta have some perspective given the history of the position on this team. And one thing that doesn't show in the stats are this guy's intangibles. He was a hell of a leader and winner in college.
Is that really who it is?
No. Sorry to disappoint.
In Ayton case you just have to be willing to take them when you are open. Pull your defender out of the paint. If he can shoot .250 to .300 from the arc that opens up lanes and makes teams guard you up high.
Mitch doesn't give you that and his defender drops down to take away lanes.
True centers outside of 2 or 3 players are an after thought in the modern NBA.
The only two players that seem to be available that are upgrades are Murray and Ayton and I just don’t see Murray happening.
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who are arguing about Brunson or saying they'll be paying him like a star and he's not...
-correct, he is not a star nor do I expect him to be
but, he is:
-tough
-efficient
-smart
-greatly mitigates Randle's inefficiency by providing the team with an actual lead guard
-presence makes it far more likely all the young players achieve success (mainly by virtue to the point about Randle no longer running the offense into the ground)
-fair to expect him to average 17+ points, 7+ assists and captain this young team
Paying big money to non-stars is the road to ruin in the NBA.
what big money? he will be the 15th highest paid PG in the NBA
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
Most knick fans seem to know exactly what Bruson is. An upgrade to what we have, a good but not amazing player. You are hoping he is in his prime kyle lowry. The version that TOR got.
Yes - that's a reasonable comp.
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This year. Obviously low attempts, but only 23 who can expand to that area if need me. Brook Lopez did it much later in his career. But Ayton’s stroke shows he can be a competent 3 point shooter.
In Ayton case you just have to be willing to take them when you are open. Pull your defender out of the paint. If he can shoot .250 to .300 from the arc that opens up lanes and makes teams guard you up high.
Mitch doesn't give you that and his defender drops down to take away lanes.
True centers outside of 2 or 3 players are an after thought in the modern NBA.
Agree with this. Not sure if Ayton was told not to shoot them but his shooting stroke is pretty good. No reason he can’t be knocking a 3 down a game.
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
It makes him the 39th highest paid player in the league which is upper 10% of the league is he in the top 50 of the NBA?
My point is more about the resources to Brunson takes away ability to pay other high potential players and I don't see him more than a 3rd option on a championship team.
I know he had a great playoff run but when he is the #1 or #2 option on this team and teams go out of their way to stop him he is limited physically both size and athleticism.
Dog mentality can only get you so far in a league full of very athletic players.
I hope I am wrong but if he is a 15 and 6 player next year how hard will it be to move that contract for an actual star?
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In comment 15743555 Enzo said:
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In comment 15743552 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15743547 GNewGiants said:
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In comment 15743534 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15743531 GNewGiants said
Rj plays a better lead guard? since when?
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
just ignore the troll.
not a troll, just dep back from the grave.
Is that really who it is?
i seen this guy posting about the wolverines, the bulls and the Phillies. if its not him then it might be the only other person in existence that is interested in those 3 teams
C'mon lol. Steve Nash is one of the all-time great PG's. Brunson is nowhere near that.
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That is not "paying him like a star". Period, full stop. It is a non-point. It is not arguable.
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
It makes him the 39th highest paid player in the league which is upper 10% of the league is he in the top 50 of the NBA?
You can't assume the deal would be a flat 25m per, but if that is the case, that's outside the top 40 this year. But we're splitting hairs here. Any time you go to free agency, you are going to pay at or above market price.
The cap spike of a few years ago has changed salary expectations and we should acknowledge that. The point remains, he's paid in the middle class of PGs, which is decidedly not a "star".
If the problem the Knicks have is salary woes, the cause is not the midrange salary guy that is consistently productive. It's the players making more that don't impact the team sufficiently. This is an issue with Randle or Fournier; two players who need to be given the ball in their spot to be effective. Actually having a PG who can run the offense gets more out of Randle.
No team in the NBA had fewer assists than the Knicks last season. They had a consistent problem with looking disorganized and slow on offense. This didn't happen with a healthy Rose, but you can't count on a healthy Rose anymore.
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In comment 15743568 KDubbs said:
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In comment 15743555 Enzo said:
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In comment 15743552 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15743547 GNewGiants said:
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In comment 15743534 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15743531 GNewGiants said
Rj plays a better lead guard? since when?
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
just ignore the troll.
not a troll, just dep back from the grave.
Is that really who it is?
i seen this guy posting about the wolverines, the bulls and the Phillies. if its not him then it might be the only other person in existence that is interested in those 3 teams
I’m not a Phillies or a Bulls fan.. lol.
Michigan - yes.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
1,000%
Case in point - Jalen Brunson was a second round pick.
Bottom line is that the Knicks have been both very unlucky AND they suck at drafting. But this is what you get when you hire “names” instead of a knowledgeable front office.
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The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
1,000%
Case in point - Jalen Brunson was a second round pick.
Bottom line is that the Knicks have been both very unlucky AND they suck at drafting. But this is what you get when you hire “names” instead of a knowledgeable front office.
Actually this front office has been good at drafting and they dont just ahve "names" They have Walt Perrin who ran the drafts for Utah, Aller who is one of the best cap guys in the NBA..
I'm generally an optimist (though that word and Knicks usually don't go together) and we haven't had a decent young PG in years, so if they sign Brunson I'll hope for the best.
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In comment 15743587 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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That is not "paying him like a star". Period, full stop. It is a non-point. It is not arguable.
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
It makes him the 39th highest paid player in the league which is upper 10% of the league is he in the top 50 of the NBA?
You can't assume the deal would be a flat 25m per, but if that is the case, that's outside the top 40 this year. But we're splitting hairs here. Any time you go to free agency, you are going to pay at or above market price.
The cap spike of a few years ago has changed salary expectations and we should acknowledge that. The point remains, he's paid in the middle class of PGs, which is decidedly not a "star".
If the problem the Knicks have is salary woes, the cause is not the midrange salary guy that is consistently productive. It's the players making more that don't impact the team sufficiently. This is an issue with Randle or Fournier; two players who need to be given the ball in their spot to be effective. Actually having a PG who can run the offense gets more out of Randle.
No team in the NBA had fewer assists than the Knicks last season. They had a consistent problem with looking disorganized and slow on offense. This didn't happen with a healthy Rose, but you can't count on a healthy Rose anymore.
They had a 6'8" 250lb guy not named Lebron James running the offense into the ground. That changes w Brunson.
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they are comparing losing him to when they lost Steve Nash. Thinks he is a rising star and if you look at Nash's numbers his first few years in the league I don't think they're wrong.
C'mon lol. Steve Nash is one of the all-time great PG's. Brunson is nowhere near that.
I'm just telling you what I was reading from MANY Mavs fans. Steve Nash's first couple of years in the league he was a 8/5/3 guy. Brunson has only been in the league 3 years. I'm sure when Nash left the Mavs they didn't think he was going to be an all time great and I'm not saying that Brunson will either but just this is what Mavs fans are likening this to.
How many great or very important players weren't the most explosive or "twitchy" for some of you to allow for some nuance to the debate? Brunson isn't Vince Carter or Morant. EVERYONE knows that already. The problem in this debate is some of you don't want to acknowledge that some of the best guards to play the game weren't necessarily known for explosive athleticism. There are enough examples to give one reasonable hope that Brunson could be yet another and as stated numerous times, he's already pretty fucking good.
"it's an over pay he's not a star" wtf does that even mean...that's a lazy and jaded Knicks fan take.
#1 I didn't see a single person compare him to Nash or anything of the sort. Some thought he had a "shot" to be a top 10 PG, others labeled him a "good starter", while others think he was (in part) a product of Kidd's system.
#2 Most are unhappy he's leaving. Some are blaming Cuban, some are blaming Donnie Walsh and some are blaming Nico Harrison. Within these groups, some are most upset that Brunson's rookie deal had a 4th year non-guaranteed (which is why he's an UFA now, vs. a team option (they blame Donnie Walsh for this decision)
#3 A few are upset a homegrown guy is leaving them over money, but the vast majority understand it's a business.
#4 A few believe he has a chance to be a borderline all-star and see very little risk for the Mavs since they are already going to be paying a luxury tax as is.
#5 Some don't see how they are able to find a player on the FA that will replace Brunson given the money they have to spend (though some think Hardy will be able to play some PG and step right into some of Brunson's minutes).
#6 Some think Luca (like Dirk) is going to have trouble drawing a second superstar because he's not part of the "NBA elite" group (friendships wise) and is instead a Euro.
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
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Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
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In comment 15743846 CooperDash said:
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Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
No, not really. These are the types of moves that really poor run franchises have to make. So, it’s completely on brand. It’s embarrassing.
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In comment 15743862 CooperDash said:
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In comment 15743846 CooperDash said:
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Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
No, not really. These are the types of moves that really poor run franchises have to make. So, it’s completely on brand. It’s embarrassing.
And how is that? they gave up 1 2nd round pick, the other is top 55 protected..
They cleared 19 million in space and got rid of 2 guys who are blocking youth...
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In comment 15743864 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15743862 CooperDash said:
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In comment 15743846 CooperDash said:
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Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
No, not really. These are the types of moves that really poor run franchises have to make. So, it’s completely on brand. It’s embarrassing.
And how is that? they gave up 1 2nd round pick, the other is top 55 protected..
They cleared 19 million in space and got rid of 2 guys who are blocking youth...
The way you guys talk about the value of draft picks is amusing.
First, I don’t disagree with what you said. But the reality is that the Knicks gave away two useful players plus 2 second round draft picks PLUS $6 million in cash just to have the opportunity to spend THEIR OWN MONEY.
I get that it’s a move they have to make but, as per the norm, teams have the Knicks over a barrel and get decent players for free (plus picks, plus millions in cash).
Totally agree.