your telling me we arent getting Trae young mixed with Ja Morant?????
Most knick fans seem to know exactly what Bruson is. An upgrade to what we have, a good but not amazing player. You are hoping he is in his prime kyle lowry. The version that TOR got.
This year. Obviously low attempts, but only 23 who can expand to that area if need me. Brook Lopez did it much later in his career. But Ayton’s stroke shows he can be a competent 3 point shooter.
In Ayton case you just have to be willing to take them when you are open. Pull your defender out of the paint. If he can shoot .250 to .300 from the arc that opens up lanes and makes teams guard you up high.
Mitch doesn't give you that and his defender drops down to take away lanes.
True centers outside of 2 or 3 players are an after thought in the modern NBA.
Agree with this. Not sure if Ayton was told not to shoot them but his shooting stroke is pretty good. No reason he can’t be knocking a 3 down a game.
Just a heads up on what Maverick fans think of Brunson
they are comparing losing him to when they lost Steve Nash. Thinks he is a rising star and if you look at Nash's numbers his first few years in the league I don't think they're wrong.
That is not "paying him like a star". Period, full stop. It is a non-point. It is not arguable.
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
It makes him the 39th highest paid player in the league which is upper 10% of the league is he in the top 50 of the NBA?
My point is more about the resources to Brunson takes away ability to pay other high potential players and I don't see him more than a 3rd option on a championship team.
I know he had a great playoff run but when he is the #1 or #2 option on this team and teams go out of their way to stop him he is limited physically both size and athleticism.
Dog mentality can only get you so far in a league full of very athletic players.
I hope I am wrong but if he is a 15 and 6 player next year how hard will it be to move that contract for an actual star?
"Some people in the organization have concerns about an Evan Fournier-Jalen Brunson backcourt"I mean... THEY signed Fournier and THEY are opting to add Brunson... so... move Fournier but again, it's another example of the FO adding players at "good $" and then pivoting, hopefully not MORE picks attached to move Fournier
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
just ignore the troll.
not a troll, just dep back from the grave.
Is that really who it is?
i seen this guy posting about the wolverines, the bulls and the Phillies. if its not him then it might be the only other person in existence that is interested in those 3 teams
RE: Just a heads up on what Maverick fans think of Brunson
they are comparing losing him to when they lost Steve Nash. Thinks he is a rising star and if you look at Nash's numbers his first few years in the league I don't think they're wrong.
C'mon lol. Steve Nash is one of the all-time great PG's. Brunson is nowhere near that.
That is not "paying him like a star". Period, full stop. It is a non-point. It is not arguable.
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
It makes him the 39th highest paid player in the league which is upper 10% of the league is he in the top 50 of the NBA?
You can't assume the deal would be a flat 25m per, but if that is the case, that's outside the top 40 this year. But we're splitting hairs here. Any time you go to free agency, you are going to pay at or above market price.
The cap spike of a few years ago has changed salary expectations and we should acknowledge that. The point remains, he's paid in the middle class of PGs, which is decidedly not a "star".
If the problem the Knicks have is salary woes, the cause is not the midrange salary guy that is consistently productive. It's the players making more that don't impact the team sufficiently. This is an issue with Randle or Fournier; two players who need to be given the ball in their spot to be effective. Actually having a PG who can run the offense gets more out of Randle.
No team in the NBA had fewer assists than the Knicks last season. They had a consistent problem with looking disorganized and slow on offense. This didn't happen with a healthy Rose, but you can't count on a healthy Rose anymore.
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
just ignore the troll.
not a troll, just dep back from the grave.
Is that really who it is?
i seen this guy posting about the wolverines, the bulls and the Phillies. if its not him then it might be the only other person in existence that is interested in those 3 teams
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
1,000%
Case in point - Jalen Brunson was a second round pick.
Bottom line is that the Knicks have been both very unlucky AND they suck at drafting. But this is what you get when you hire “names” instead of a knowledgeable front office.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
1,000%
Case in point - Jalen Brunson was a second round pick.
Bottom line is that the Knicks have been both very unlucky AND they suck at drafting. But this is what you get when you hire “names” instead of a knowledgeable front office.
Actually this front office has been good at drafting and they dont just ahve "names" They have Walt Perrin who ran the drafts for Utah, Aller who is one of the best cap guys in the NBA..
(I know stats aren't everything but) there was a drastic difference in Brunson's stats when Luka was out and it wasn't an insignificant sample size imo. In 17 reg season games when Luka was inactive, Brunson averaged about 20.5 pts and 7.8 Ast. In 3 playoff games when Luka was inactive, Brunson averaged 32 pts.
I'm generally an optimist (though that word and Knicks usually don't go together) and we haven't had a decent young PG in years, so if they sign Brunson I'll hope for the best.
That is not "paying him like a star". Period, full stop. It is a non-point. It is not arguable.
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
It makes him the 39th highest paid player in the league which is upper 10% of the league is he in the top 50 of the NBA?
You can't assume the deal would be a flat 25m per, but if that is the case, that's outside the top 40 this year. But we're splitting hairs here. Any time you go to free agency, you are going to pay at or above market price.
The cap spike of a few years ago has changed salary expectations and we should acknowledge that. The point remains, he's paid in the middle class of PGs, which is decidedly not a "star".
If the problem the Knicks have is salary woes, the cause is not the midrange salary guy that is consistently productive. It's the players making more that don't impact the team sufficiently. This is an issue with Randle or Fournier; two players who need to be given the ball in their spot to be effective. Actually having a PG who can run the offense gets more out of Randle.
No team in the NBA had fewer assists than the Knicks last season. They had a consistent problem with looking disorganized and slow on offense. This didn't happen with a healthy Rose, but you can't count on a healthy Rose anymore.
They had a 6'8" 250lb guy not named Lebron James running the offense into the ground. That changes w Brunson.
RE: RE: Just a heads up on what Maverick fans think of Brunson
they are comparing losing him to when they lost Steve Nash. Thinks he is a rising star and if you look at Nash's numbers his first few years in the league I don't think they're wrong.
C'mon lol. Steve Nash is one of the all-time great PG's. Brunson is nowhere near that.
I'm just telling you what I was reading from MANY Mavs fans. Steve Nash's first couple of years in the league he was a 8/5/3 guy. Brunson has only been in the league 3 years. I'm sure when Nash left the Mavs they didn't think he was going to be an all time great and I'm not saying that Brunson will either but just this is what Mavs fans are likening this to.
stop already. Brunson is an ascending talent and player. The metrics scream this. Even if he stays as is, he's a solid dependable PG. And he's 25. Those guys get paid.
How many great or very important players weren't the most explosive or "twitchy" for some of you to allow for some nuance to the debate? Brunson isn't Vince Carter or Morant. EVERYONE knows that already. The problem in this debate is some of you don't want to acknowledge that some of the best guards to play the game weren't necessarily known for explosive athleticism. There are enough examples to give one reasonable hope that Brunson could be yet another and as stated numerous times, he's already pretty fucking good.
"it's an over pay he's not a star" wtf does that even mean...that's a lazy and jaded Knicks fan take.
the Mavs thought Brunson was "Steve Nash" Cuban would have offered max and the entire league would have been frothing at the mouth to add him. C'mon, I like Brunson but Steve Nash is one of the best ball handling and passing PG's in NBA history. I actually see a TON of Mavs fans "fine" (disappointed) but "fine" with letting him walk. That's not a knock. Nash came into the league from Santa Clara (a crap bball school) and sat behind Kevin Johnson so they traded him to Dallas. He was an elite level shooter the minute he joined the league (40% from 3 his first 4 seasons), 88% (not a typo) from the line.
just dug through 3 different Mavs message boards and
#1 I didn't see a single person compare him to Nash or anything of the sort. Some thought he had a "shot" to be a top 10 PG, others labeled him a "good starter", while others think he was (in part) a product of Kidd's system.
#2 Most are unhappy he's leaving. Some are blaming Cuban, some are blaming Donnie Walsh and some are blaming Nico Harrison. Within these groups, some are most upset that Brunson's rookie deal had a 4th year non-guaranteed (which is why he's an UFA now, vs. a team option (they blame Donnie Walsh for this decision)
#3 A few are upset a homegrown guy is leaving them over money, but the vast majority understand it's a business.
#4 A few believe he has a chance to be a borderline all-star and see very little risk for the Mavs since they are already going to be paying a luxury tax as is.
#5 Some don't see how they are able to find a player on the FA that will replace Brunson given the money they have to spend (though some think Hardy will be able to play some PG and step right into some of Brunson's minutes).
#6 Some think Luca (like Dirk) is going to have trouble drawing a second superstar because he's not part of the "NBA elite" group (friendships wise) and is instead a Euro.
Sorry, haven’t been able to find it in these threads.
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
RE: RE: Sorry, haven’t been able to find it in these threads.
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
RE: RE: RE: Sorry, haven’t been able to find it in these threads.
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
No, not really. These are the types of moves that really poor run franchises have to make. So, it’s completely on brand. It’s embarrassing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Sorry, haven’t been able to find it in these threads.
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
No, not really. These are the types of moves that really poor run franchises have to make. So, it’s completely on brand. It’s embarrassing.
And how is that? they gave up 1 2nd round pick, the other is top 55 protected..
They cleared 19 million in space and got rid of 2 guys who are blocking youth...
The Knicks may get those second round picks back anyways
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
No, not really. These are the types of moves that really poor run franchises have to make. So, it’s completely on brand. It’s embarrassing.
And how is that? they gave up 1 2nd round pick, the other is top 55 protected..
They cleared 19 million in space and got rid of 2 guys who are blocking youth...
The way you guys talk about the value of draft picks is amusing.
First, I don’t disagree with what you said. But the reality is that the Knicks gave away two useful players plus 2 second round draft picks PLUS $6 million in cash just to have the opportunity to spend THEIR OWN MONEY.
I get that it’s a move they have to make but, as per the norm, teams have the Knicks over a barrel and get decent players for free (plus picks, plus millions in cash).
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
Most knick fans seem to know exactly what Bruson is. An upgrade to what we have, a good but not amazing player. You are hoping he is in his prime kyle lowry. The version that TOR got.
Yes - that's a reasonable comp.
Quote:
This year. Obviously low attempts, but only 23 who can expand to that area if need me. Brook Lopez did it much later in his career. But Ayton’s stroke shows he can be a competent 3 point shooter.
In Ayton case you just have to be willing to take them when you are open. Pull your defender out of the paint. If he can shoot .250 to .300 from the arc that opens up lanes and makes teams guard you up high.
Mitch doesn't give you that and his defender drops down to take away lanes.
True centers outside of 2 or 3 players are an after thought in the modern NBA.
Agree with this. Not sure if Ayton was told not to shoot them but his shooting stroke is pretty good. No reason he can’t be knocking a 3 down a game.
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
It makes him the 39th highest paid player in the league which is upper 10% of the league is he in the top 50 of the NBA?
My point is more about the resources to Brunson takes away ability to pay other high potential players and I don't see him more than a 3rd option on a championship team.
I know he had a great playoff run but when he is the #1 or #2 option on this team and teams go out of their way to stop him he is limited physically both size and athleticism.
Dog mentality can only get you so far in a league full of very athletic players.
I hope I am wrong but if he is a 15 and 6 player next year how hard will it be to move that contract for an actual star?
Quote:
In comment 15743555 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 15743552 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15743547 GNewGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 15743534 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15743531 GNewGiants said
Rj plays a better lead guard? since when?
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
just ignore the troll.
not a troll, just dep back from the grave.
Is that really who it is?
i seen this guy posting about the wolverines, the bulls and the Phillies. if its not him then it might be the only other person in existence that is interested in those 3 teams
C'mon lol. Steve Nash is one of the all-time great PG's. Brunson is nowhere near that.
Quote:
That is not "paying him like a star". Period, full stop. It is a non-point. It is not arguable.
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
It makes him the 39th highest paid player in the league which is upper 10% of the league is he in the top 50 of the NBA?
You can't assume the deal would be a flat 25m per, but if that is the case, that's outside the top 40 this year. But we're splitting hairs here. Any time you go to free agency, you are going to pay at or above market price.
The cap spike of a few years ago has changed salary expectations and we should acknowledge that. The point remains, he's paid in the middle class of PGs, which is decidedly not a "star".
If the problem the Knicks have is salary woes, the cause is not the midrange salary guy that is consistently productive. It's the players making more that don't impact the team sufficiently. This is an issue with Randle or Fournier; two players who need to be given the ball in their spot to be effective. Actually having a PG who can run the offense gets more out of Randle.
No team in the NBA had fewer assists than the Knicks last season. They had a consistent problem with looking disorganized and slow on offense. This didn't happen with a healthy Rose, but you can't count on a healthy Rose anymore.
Quote:
In comment 15743568 KDubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 15743555 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 15743552 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15743547 GNewGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 15743534 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15743531 GNewGiants said
Rj plays a better lead guard? since when?
You do realize you advocated all year that RJ should lead the offense? RJ is at his best when he has the ball.
I advocated for Rj to have the ball more on a team that had Alec Burks running the offense..
That doesnt mean he is better than Brunson..
Last year yeah because the Knicks had no one who could get into the paint..
With Brunson i want him running the offense and getting others involved and make Rjs life a lot easier..the ball will be in Rjs hands at times and Brunson is fine off the ball as well
just ignore the troll.
not a troll, just dep back from the grave.
Is that really who it is?
i seen this guy posting about the wolverines, the bulls and the Phillies. if its not him then it might be the only other person in existence that is interested in those 3 teams
I’m not a Phillies or a Bulls fan.. lol.
Michigan - yes.
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
1,000%
Case in point - Jalen Brunson was a second round pick.
Bottom line is that the Knicks have been both very unlucky AND they suck at drafting. But this is what you get when you hire “names” instead of a knowledgeable front office.
Quote:
The Knicks need to draft better. Plenty of teams find really good players in the mid to late first round. The argument can't be that the draft is worthless unless you can make a top five pick.
1,000%
Case in point - Jalen Brunson was a second round pick.
Bottom line is that the Knicks have been both very unlucky AND they suck at drafting. But this is what you get when you hire “names” instead of a knowledgeable front office.
Actually this front office has been good at drafting and they dont just ahve "names" They have Walt Perrin who ran the drafts for Utah, Aller who is one of the best cap guys in the NBA..
I'm generally an optimist (though that word and Knicks usually don't go together) and we haven't had a decent young PG in years, so if they sign Brunson I'll hope for the best.
Quote:
In comment 15743587 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
That is not "paying him like a star". Period, full stop. It is a non-point. It is not arguable.
Paying a free agent at the 12 to 15 range when there are 30 starting PGs in the league is not star money. The end.
It makes him the 39th highest paid player in the league which is upper 10% of the league is he in the top 50 of the NBA?
You can't assume the deal would be a flat 25m per, but if that is the case, that's outside the top 40 this year. But we're splitting hairs here. Any time you go to free agency, you are going to pay at or above market price.
The cap spike of a few years ago has changed salary expectations and we should acknowledge that. The point remains, he's paid in the middle class of PGs, which is decidedly not a "star".
If the problem the Knicks have is salary woes, the cause is not the midrange salary guy that is consistently productive. It's the players making more that don't impact the team sufficiently. This is an issue with Randle or Fournier; two players who need to be given the ball in their spot to be effective. Actually having a PG who can run the offense gets more out of Randle.
No team in the NBA had fewer assists than the Knicks last season. They had a consistent problem with looking disorganized and slow on offense. This didn't happen with a healthy Rose, but you can't count on a healthy Rose anymore.
They had a 6'8" 250lb guy not named Lebron James running the offense into the ground. That changes w Brunson.
Quote:
they are comparing losing him to when they lost Steve Nash. Thinks he is a rising star and if you look at Nash's numbers his first few years in the league I don't think they're wrong.
C'mon lol. Steve Nash is one of the all-time great PG's. Brunson is nowhere near that.
I'm just telling you what I was reading from MANY Mavs fans. Steve Nash's first couple of years in the league he was a 8/5/3 guy. Brunson has only been in the league 3 years. I'm sure when Nash left the Mavs they didn't think he was going to be an all time great and I'm not saying that Brunson will either but just this is what Mavs fans are likening this to.
How many great or very important players weren't the most explosive or "twitchy" for some of you to allow for some nuance to the debate? Brunson isn't Vince Carter or Morant. EVERYONE knows that already. The problem in this debate is some of you don't want to acknowledge that some of the best guards to play the game weren't necessarily known for explosive athleticism. There are enough examples to give one reasonable hope that Brunson could be yet another and as stated numerous times, he's already pretty fucking good.
"it's an over pay he's not a star" wtf does that even mean...that's a lazy and jaded Knicks fan take.
#1 I didn't see a single person compare him to Nash or anything of the sort. Some thought he had a "shot" to be a top 10 PG, others labeled him a "good starter", while others think he was (in part) a product of Kidd's system.
#2 Most are unhappy he's leaving. Some are blaming Cuban, some are blaming Donnie Walsh and some are blaming Nico Harrison. Within these groups, some are most upset that Brunson's rookie deal had a 4th year non-guaranteed (which is why he's an UFA now, vs. a team option (they blame Donnie Walsh for this decision)
#3 A few are upset a homegrown guy is leaving them over money, but the vast majority understand it's a business.
#4 A few believe he has a chance to be a borderline all-star and see very little risk for the Mavs since they are already going to be paying a luxury tax as is.
#5 Some don't see how they are able to find a player on the FA that will replace Brunson given the money they have to spend (though some think Hardy will be able to play some PG and step right into some of Brunson's minutes).
#6 Some think Luca (like Dirk) is going to have trouble drawing a second superstar because he's not part of the "NBA elite" group (friendships wise) and is instead a Euro.
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
Quote:
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
Quote:
In comment 15743846 CooperDash said:
Quote:
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
No, not really. These are the types of moves that really poor run franchises have to make. So, it’s completely on brand. It’s embarrassing.
Quote:
In comment 15743862 CooperDash said:
Quote:
In comment 15743846 CooperDash said:
Quote:
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
No, not really. These are the types of moves that really poor run franchises have to make. So, it’s completely on brand. It’s embarrassing.
And how is that? they gave up 1 2nd round pick, the other is top 55 protected..
They cleared 19 million in space and got rid of 2 guys who are blocking youth...
Quote:
In comment 15743864 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15743862 CooperDash said:
Quote:
In comment 15743846 CooperDash said:
Quote:
Did the Knicks get anything in return in this “trade”? Or did we literally give away two useful players in Burks/Noel, plus two second rounders, plus cash for absolutely nothing?
Wow, that’s embarrassing.
only for you
No, not really. These are the types of moves that really poor run franchises have to make. So, it’s completely on brand. It’s embarrassing.
And how is that? they gave up 1 2nd round pick, the other is top 55 protected..
They cleared 19 million in space and got rid of 2 guys who are blocking youth...
The way you guys talk about the value of draft picks is amusing.
First, I don’t disagree with what you said. But the reality is that the Knicks gave away two useful players plus 2 second round draft picks PLUS $6 million in cash just to have the opportunity to spend THEIR OWN MONEY.
I get that it’s a move they have to make but, as per the norm, teams have the Knicks over a barrel and get decent players for free (plus picks, plus millions in cash).
Totally agree.