Didn't see it posted. If I missed it, I'll delete.
| “I honestly feel bad for Daniel,” Tate told Andy Vasquez of NJ Advance Media on Wednesday. “He was drafted into a rebuilding organization for one, had Pat Shurmur for a year and then got Joe Judge for two years, now another head coach and another rebuild going into his fourth season. He hasn’t had Saquon [Barkley], myself, [Kenny] Golladay, Sterling [Shepard]. No one is ever on the field at the same time. And then on top of that, he had [Jason] Garrett [as his offensive coordinator] and that probably didn’t help much. |
Tate on Jones - (
New Window )
It wont fly well with the DO IT ANYWAYZ!! crowd, but circumstances matter big time at the NFL level.
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The gray area is completely gone and its why these discussions typically suck and aren't at all informative
You just choose not to see it because you are too caught up in just bitching about the group that looks at the DJ situation more in black and white and would rather complain about them.
In reality, there are BBI posters that didn't want Jones before last year and still don't; others that were converted in 2021 and wanted to move on from him this past offseason; many still willing to give him a chance in 2022 but he has to be really good; still others that think with just a decent year he should be at least tagged; and yet still others that think he will be one of the better QBs in the league and we should want to extend him longer term.
There are a fair amount of posters in every one of the above groups. Some are dug in and have stayed as such, and many move within the various groups based on time and circumstance.
You're actually being disingenuous to suggest otherwise if you read this board every day.
Yup, all those Jones threads were full of good discussions where both sides were being fair. That's definitely BBI, right? LOL.
The loudest groups of posters are on one side or the other. The gray area is represented by many people who don't post frequently, or at all anymore. So yeah, they are out there, but the effort has become so futile that they don't really post anymore.
Nothing at all disingenuous saying that a large majority of the posting done on this site is by people dead set in their viewpoints and will hammer you do death if you don't agree with it. I know you know this, no reason to pretend like you don't.
Thats it.
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“Feeling bad” for Jones implies he’s not a big part of why things have gone wrong.
I think this his been the fatal flaw for the Giants since 2017 — the assumption everything is fine at the QB position — and it’s everyone else.
Why don’t we feel bad for Darius Slayton that he’s had to play with a QB who misses critical games each year due to injury?
Why don’t we feel bad for Joe Judge for inheriting a QB that struggles with some of the fundamentals?
The more true and intellectually honest assessment is many of the principals, from coaching to skills players and yes the QB have underperformed and missed time. And it’s a collective failure.
We do, and plenty have made comments about what you outlined. Can't answer for Tate, however.
Its completely ok to think Jones got dealt a shitty hand and also think he isn't good enough to boot. Too many posters are dug in on either side, that's the real problem. The gray area is completely gone and its why these discussions typically suck and aren't at all informative.
The gray is not for me to worry about, it is for our personnel evaluators our GM and our coaches. I do not believe the are going to tell everyone let us keep a guy we can not win with. This not affects wins and losses but affects their job. Let us hope we finally have the right people in place who will make the right decisions to help get this team back to the Promised Land.
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In comment 15744317 christian said:
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“Feeling bad” for Jones implies he’s not a big part of why things have gone wrong.
I think this his been the fatal flaw for the Giants since 2017 — the assumption everything is fine at the QB position — and it’s everyone else.
Why don’t we feel bad for Darius Slayton that he’s had to play with a QB who misses critical games each year due to injury?
Why don’t we feel bad for Joe Judge for inheriting a QB that struggles with some of the fundamentals?
The more true and intellectually honest assessment is many of the principals, from coaching to skills players and yes the QB have underperformed and missed time. And it’s a collective failure.
.
When this kid works out and wins in this league I can't wait for you to swallow some crow.
And when he's a backup on Pittsburgh next year, does that mean you'll be eating crow?
And if is still here? What will you be eating?
Well that's what gravy and spices are for!
Risky
I'm not terribly concerned about that happening
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In comment 15744335 bLiTz 2k said:
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In comment 15744317 christian said:
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“Feeling bad” for Jones implies he’s not a big part of why things have gone wrong.
I think this his been the fatal flaw for the Giants since 2017 — the assumption everything is fine at the QB position — and it’s everyone else.
Why don’t we feel bad for Darius Slayton that he’s had to play with a QB who misses critical games each year due to injury?
Why don’t we feel bad for Joe Judge for inheriting a QB that struggles with some of the fundamentals?
The more true and intellectually honest assessment is many of the principals, from coaching to skills players and yes the QB have underperformed and missed time. And it’s a collective failure.
.
When this kid works out and wins in this league I can't wait for you to swallow some crow.
And when he's a backup on Pittsburgh next year, does that mean you'll be eating crow?
And if is still here? What will you be eating?
No we will be happy that Giants have a legit starting QB. However nothing so far has shown that he can and from what he has shown, he can't read defenses fast enough, isn't holding on to the ball and doesn't get the ball in the right place at the right time consistently.. I am sorry if the OL/bad coaches damaged him, if thats an excuse. I only care about how he will do going forward. No more chances, deliver or move on.. He can take his bag of excuses to Tate's house and throw a party..
Of course he is, but it’s hard to make that point to many on here. No worries, they will be proven wrong, imho..
It wont fly well with the DO IT ANYWAYZ!! crowd, but circumstances matter big time at the NFL level.
Apparently the entire league has been told to tow the Giants Way line.
Also, Jones is the reason that gas prices are so high.
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In comment 15744335 bLiTz 2k said:
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In comment 15744317 christian said:
Quote:
“Feeling bad” for Jones implies he’s not a big part of why things have gone wrong.
I think this his been the fatal flaw for the Giants since 2017 — the assumption everything is fine at the QB position — and it’s everyone else.
Why don’t we feel bad for Darius Slayton that he’s had to play with a QB who misses critical games each year due to injury?
Why don’t we feel bad for Joe Judge for inheriting a QB that struggles with some of the fundamentals?
The more true and intellectually honest assessment is many of the principals, from coaching to skills players and yes the QB have underperformed and missed time. And it’s a collective failure.
.
When this kid works out and wins in this league I can't wait for you to swallow some crow.
And when he's a backup on Pittsburgh next year, does that mean you'll be eating crow?
And if is still here? What will you be eating?
Steak, I hear it's better than Daniel Jones
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The gray area is completely gone and its why these discussions typically suck and aren't at all informative
You just choose not to see it because you are too caught up in just bitching about the group that looks at the DJ situation more in black and white and would rather complain about them.
In reality, there are BBI posters that didn't want Jones before last year and still don't; others that were converted in 2021 and wanted to move on from him this past offseason; many still willing to give him a chance in 2022 but he has to be really good; still others that think with just a decent year he should be at least tagged; and yet still others that think he will be one of the better QBs in the league and we should want to extend him longer term.
There are a fair amount of posters in every one of the above groups. Some are dug in and have stayed as such, and many move within the various groups based on time and circumstance.
You're actually being disingenuous to suggest otherwise if you read this board every day.
Yup, all those Jones threads were full of good discussions where both sides were being fair. That's definitely BBI, right? LOL.
The loudest groups of posters are on one side or the other. The gray area is represented by many people who don't post frequently, or at all anymore. So yeah, they are out there, but the effort has become so futile that they don't really post anymore.
Nothing at all disingenuous saying that a large majority of the posting done on this site is by people dead set in their viewpoints and will hammer you do death if you don't agree with it. I know you know this, no reason to pretend like you don't.
Again that's just nonsense. Posts come from everyone and everywhere and you can engage with who you want to, or not. If the gray is all your looking for then you can find it easily imv. To the extent you feel you can't or it's futile, then hopefully you better choices than just complaining about it on these threadz. Or did you run out of popcorn?
And by the way (and you should surely know this), you aren't exactly a shade of gray yourself and are plenty dead-set in your own viewpoints.
The answer is probably some of both.
The only thing we know for sure is that Jones was elevating a pathetically bad offense to some degree.
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In comment 15744458 chick310 said:
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The gray area is completely gone and its why these discussions typically suck and aren't at all informative
You just choose not to see it because you are too caught up in just bitching about the group that looks at the DJ situation more in black and white and would rather complain about them.
In reality, there are BBI posters that didn't want Jones before last year and still don't; others that were converted in 2021 and wanted to move on from him this past offseason; many still willing to give him a chance in 2022 but he has to be really good; still others that think with just a decent year he should be at least tagged; and yet still others that think he will be one of the better QBs in the league and we should want to extend him longer term.
There are a fair amount of posters in every one of the above groups. Some are dug in and have stayed as such, and many move within the various groups based on time and circumstance.
You're actually being disingenuous to suggest otherwise if you read this board every day.
Yup, all those Jones threads were full of good discussions where both sides were being fair. That's definitely BBI, right? LOL.
The loudest groups of posters are on one side or the other. The gray area is represented by many people who don't post frequently, or at all anymore. So yeah, they are out there, but the effort has become so futile that they don't really post anymore.
Nothing at all disingenuous saying that a large majority of the posting done on this site is by people dead set in their viewpoints and will hammer you do death if you don't agree with it. I know you know this, no reason to pretend like you don't.
Again that's just nonsense. Posts come from everyone and everywhere and you can engage with who you want to, or not. If the gray is all your looking for then you can find it easily imv. To the extent you feel you can't or it's futile, then hopefully you better choices than just complaining about it on these threadz. Or did you run out of popcorn?
And by the way (and you should surely know this), you aren't exactly a shade of gray yourself and are plenty dead-set in your own viewpoints.
Absolutely, I have conviction about many things. But i'm not going to sit on BBI all day and tell everyone how much Jones sucks (even when I agree with it, in part) while completely ignoring there's more to one component on why that is.
So here I am agreeing with you, in part. How's that for gray?
But you would rather spend time sitting on BBI all day telling them how much you think they suck.
Where do you stand on Daniel Jones?
Where do you stand on Daniel Jones?
I was lukewarm but okay on him going into 2021, but wanted to see clear improvements in his game. I wanted to see a guy that could make decisive plays that beat a Defense, kept drives alive and got the team into the end zone when given the opportunity. I didn't see it anywhere near the level I was hoping for, so he lost my support.
I want the team to move on from Jones, but okay with the concept that those two first round picks went to other premium areas. While we buy a little time to improve roster, wean off bad contracts and hope the next draft has more/better QB prospects.
If there was more evidence that Jones had shown difference-making skills, I would be willing to consider this. But Jones hasn't. What we have seen over three years is a game manager-type with a very low ceiling.
The same GM who couldn't draft his way out of a paper bag is the one who drafted Jones. Across several years he has continued to make the same mistakes he made as a rookie. He can't stay healthy, and that is more because of his careless running style not crushing hits he is taking in the pocket. He still feels like the exact same player he was in his rookie year.
It can be true that the Giants have done nothing to help Daniel Jones succeed, and also that Daniel Jones just isn't an NFL level QB. A really talented QB would have shown some flashes of brilliance by now. Aside from a play here or there, Jones' career has been largely forgettable.
Not surprising that you think Golden Tate is "on the inside."
Keep the cheerleader talk to yourself.
I think this his been the fatal flaw for the Giants since 2017 — the assumption everything is fine at the QB position — and it’s everyone else.
Why don’t we feel bad for Darius Slayton that he’s had to play with a QB who misses critical games each year due to injury?
Why don’t we feel bad for Joe Judge for inheriting a QB that struggles with some of the fundamentals?
The more true and intellectually honest assessment is many of the principals, from coaching to skills players and yes the QB have underperformed and missed time. And it’s a collective failure.
The same GM who couldn't draft his way out of a paper bag is the one who drafted Jones. Across several years he has continued to make the same mistakes he made as a rookie. He can't stay healthy, and that is more because of his careless running style not crushing hits he is taking in the pocket. He still feels like the exact same player he was in his rookie year.
It can be true that the Giants have done nothing to help Daniel Jones succeed, and also that Daniel Jones just isn't an NFL level QB. A really talented QB would have shown some flashes of brilliance by now. Aside from a play here or there, Jones' career has been largely forgettable.
+1
We could all think of guys who landed in the right or wrong spot and their careers spun out differently because of it.
I think Tate is exactly right this far: Daniel Jones was very unlucky to be picked by the dysfunctional Giants, then unlucky to have two coaching changes and three coaches within four seasons, then unlucky to have Jason Garrett as his OC. His being unlucky doesn't tell us that he would have been good if he'd had better luck. We don't know. I think that the Giants have concluded the same thing, so they are giving him another chance with (hopefully) better coaching and development, but not picking up his fifth-year option because he hasn't been very good.
I can't tell how much of Jones's bad play is a result of bad coaching and how much is on him. Maybe he blossoms now. Not counting on it, but it's possible.
The difference between a backup and a starter in the NFL is the ability between the ears. It's decisionmaking, it's processing what's he's seeing on the field in the frame of time given at this level. It's instinctiveness.
If you don't have those in the correct amounts, but you have the arm and the leg, you're still an NFL player, just not a starter.
Good post.
No, he hasn't been dealt the best hand. But he also hasn't shown enough to think he's the long term answer @ QB. Perhaps this fall he does...we'll see. I wouldn't bet on it.
Rookie 2019: had zero first team reps and thrown into the fire where his passing was legit but his fumbles ridiculous. He worked on it during the off-season.
2nd yr 2020: The OL was horrific and Barkley hurt for good part and the stats showed it. His fumbles improved and his pocket presence improved by only a bit, IMHO. He also had zero camp really due to Covid and was thrown to the fire with a new offense and a lack of playmakers.
3rd yr 2021 - Jones OL again sucked and Barkley took a step backk as a runner only showing flashes on occasion. Injuries to playmakers negated any shot of being good. With time Jones was still good but that rarely happened. Expectations were not met and his development seemed stagnant. Garrett blew chunks and didn't help!
This is Jones year to show he has the tools and honestly I believe he will have a very good year if he doesn't get hurt. My biggest issue with him is injuries. He also can't "birddog" a receiver like he did at times last year.
Big ifs but if the OL, RB Barkley, Receivers stay healthy and develo (Toney especially but Robinson the rookie too), well there is potentiial for success and I think the Giants will be competitive.
9 - 8 is best case scenario and 7-10 is likely worst given the schedule. But until they play the games who really knows right?
You haven’t displayed the proper skills OR leadership abilities.
I don’t know why some can’t see that. The Giants try to normalize this BS of talking up players in the media who have proven nothing and talking up their only problems as being circumstances that largely involved those exact players. It is and should be pretty simple you shouldn’t need to be talked into the upside of players it should be clear on the field.
You haven’t displayed the proper skills OR leadership abilities.
I don’t know why some can’t see that. The Giants try to normalize this BS of talking up players in the media who have proven nothing and talking up their only problems as being circumstances that largely involved those exact players. It is and should be pretty simple you shouldn’t need to be talked into the upside of players it should be clear on the field.
Spot on!
It seems like an endless PR campaign by the team to make it look like Jones isn't so bad, and by extension, they were right to draft him at 6
You haven’t displayed the proper skills OR leadership abilities.
I don’t know why some can’t see that. The Giants try to normalize this BS of talking up players in the media who have proven nothing and talking up their only problems as being circumstances that largely involved those exact players. It is and should be pretty simple you shouldn’t need to be talked into the upside of players it should be clear on the field.
Expecting Jones to overcome the truly dysfunctional circumstances is ridiculous. It's why he's still here. You are saying DO IT ANYWAYZ!! but it doesn't work that way in the NFL. If you have as bad a front office, coaching staff & injury situation as Jones has had, you are going to suck at the NFL level. It's as simple as that.
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if you are eliciting people “feeling bad” for you so much that they need to speak out about it. Your own owner.
You haven’t displayed the proper skills OR leadership abilities.
I don’t know why some can’t see that. The Giants try to normalize this BS of talking up players in the media who have proven nothing and talking up their only problems as being circumstances that largely involved those exact players. It is and should be pretty simple you shouldn’t need to be talked into the upside of players it should be clear on the field.
Expecting Jones to overcome the truly dysfunctional circumstances is ridiculous. It's why he's still here. You are saying DO IT ANYWAYZ!! but it doesn't work that way in the NFL. If you have as bad a front office, coaching staff & injury situation as Jones has had, you are going to suck at the NFL level. It's as simple as that.
"Overcome" has certainly been a very overused word around here. Just look at the Giants drafting the last decade coupled with all the front office issues that were exposed recently. This does not mean Jones will ever be a quality QB with better talent around him but he certainly has been very handicapped thus far.
Eli did not win two SB's own his own. It just does not work this way. The second SB run had a defense that gave up 2, 20, 17, 17. The QB's faced were Ryan, Smith, Rodgers, Brady. That was a really good team come playoff time.
The unfortunate part with Jones was that he was given very little support in coaching and talent (like Tate said). Now he becomes expensive and with that comes expectations that most likely won't be met or he is not enough of a difference maker to continue with him imv.
I hope one of the big goals this year is to have a good amount piece of quality pieces around a the next QB if they go that route.
The Giants not fielding a quality OL from 2012- 2018 was one of the great failures in its history. They incorrectly viewed/executed how to best support Eli as he aged.
When 2007 was recently replayed it reminded me of how ineffective the offense was for 3 + periods of that game.
Thanks to the defense the team was still in position to win when the Giants offense put it together in the 4 th
Without great play from that side of the ball there is no Super Bowl victory or Eli MVP
Quarterbacks get too much credit and too much blame.
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if you are eliciting people “feeling bad” for you so much that they need to speak out about it. Your own owner.
You haven’t displayed the proper skills OR leadership abilities.
I don’t know why some can’t see that. The Giants try to normalize this BS of talking up players in the media who have proven nothing and talking up their only problems as being circumstances that largely involved those exact players. It is and should be pretty simple you shouldn’t need to be talked into the upside of players it should be clear on the field.
Expecting Jones to overcome the truly dysfunctional circumstances is ridiculous. It's why he's still here. You are saying DO IT ANYWAYZ!! but it doesn't work that way in the NFL. If you have as bad a front office, coaching staff & injury situation as Jones has had, you are going to suck at the NFL level. It's as simple as that.
What if Jones is part of the dysfunction and not a victim of it's
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when they start winning the physical battle more often than not. This is why the last decade has been so poor. QB is a piece of this but not the main issue.
Eli did not win two SB's own his own. It just does not work this way. The second SB run had a defense that gave up 2, 20, 17, 17. The QB's faced were Ryan, Smith, Rodgers, Brady. That was a really good team come playoff time.
The unfortunate part with Jones was that he was given very little support in coaching and talent (like Tate said). Now he becomes expensive and with that comes expectations that most likely won't be met or he is not enough of a difference maker to continue with him imv.
I hope one of the big goals this year is to have a good amount piece of quality pieces around a the next QB if they go that route.
The Giants not fielding a quality OL from 2012- 2018 was one of the great failures in its history. They incorrectly viewed/executed how to best support Eli as he aged.
When 2007 was recently replayed it reminded me of how ineffective the offense was for 3 + periods of that game.
Thanks to the defense the team was still in position to win when the Giants offense put it together in the 4 th
Without great play from that side of the ball there is no Super Bowl victory or Eli MVP
Quarterbacks get too much credit and too much blame.
I am so sick of reading this crap. So let me see if I have the anti-Eli s argument down.
So before his 2007 play off run he didn't play well. I think people have a sort of warped sense of how QBs play the sport .
In that 2007 playoff run, Eli had more yards than anyone at 800+ yards. Tied for the most TDs with 6 with Brady. Had like a 96 passer rating and had the best TD/Int ratio as well. In other words he pretty much outplayed legends of the game like Peyton, Favre, and Tom Brady.
So if he is not doing that then he is pretty much a pedestrian QB. And some scrub douchebag Dave Gettlemen found at the pro bowl of all fucking things is his equal right.
Het Jones is pretty much history here. This team is pretty much going to suck next year. Daboll might just be another Ben Mcadoo. Even if he isn't it should take him YEARS to perfect his craft. They didn't pick up Jones option for a reason.
I am not saying this will happen to Jones, but given a better chance this year we will find out. I remain hopeful, less optimistic. By the way I felt the same about Eli after seeing both the Minn and GB bay at giant stadium in 2007. I was proven wrong....thank G-d.
I am not saying this will happen to Jones, but given a better chance this year we will find out. I remain hopeful, less optimistic. By the way I felt the same about Eli after seeing both the Minn and GB bay at giant stadium in 2007. I was proven wrong....thank G-d.
Stafford at least put up very good numbers in Detroit. Stafford first full season he put up 5000-41-16.
Jones has 45 tds in 3 seasons!
Granted he had some nice parts around him on offense but watching about 5 minutes of a Detroit game was all you needed to conclude Stafford had elite QB skills. So, if you are attempting to use this as a proxy for Jones, it's way, way off.
But that all has to be taken separately from the product that Jones puts on the field game day.
Really perceptive post! +1 from me.
Four winning seasons in 12 years is elite?
Regardless, after watching Glennon & Fromm play, Jones was clearly elevating one of the worst situations you'll ever see at the NFL level.
The funny thing is, I'm spending way too much time defending him. I think there's a very real chance he's David Carr'd by now: it's been that bad around him. But I'm interested to see him play in a functional situation.
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if you are eliciting people “feeling bad” for you so much that they need to speak out about it. Your own owner.
You haven’t displayed the proper skills OR leadership abilities.
I don’t know why some can’t see that. The Giants try to normalize this BS of talking up players in the media who have proven nothing and talking up their only problems as being circumstances that largely involved those exact players. It is and should be pretty simple you shouldn’t need to be talked into the upside of players it should be clear on the field.
Expecting Jones to overcome the truly dysfunctional circumstances is ridiculous. It's why he's still here. You are saying DO IT ANYWAYZ!! but it doesn't work that way in the NFL. If you have as bad a front office, coaching staff & injury situation as Jones has had, you are going to suck at the NFL level. It's as simple as that.
the one question here is this. Everyone keeps saying how bad the front office was, and they couldn't draft for shit, but they somehow got the QB pick right??
I think both things are true, the team was a mess, and Jones isnt good enough
Lots of guys get a few games, or maybe only a few plays to try to prove that they can play. Maybe they never even get a play. Yet Jones gets 4 full years despite being a terrible QB.